302648 Wed Oct 12 12:55:01 -0700 2005 47 29 Not About Food 0 1695803 Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me. What makes a product certified organic. Does a vegetarian come in and bless the food, what? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but I'm honestly having trouble understanding what makes a "pot pie" organic. Thank you. Wed Oct 12 12:55:01 -0700 2005 0 Laurie 1 1695804 I'll let others chime in on their definitions, but one important observation-- despite the claims by some organic food advocates, organic does not necessarily taste better, and sometimes just doesn't taste as good. I'm all about the taste, so the organic label is secondary for me. Wed Oct 12 13:05:51 -0700 2005 1695803 0 Two Forks 1 1695805 Well, in order to be certified organic, a farm must meet certain government standards. This means that animals are not given antibiotics or hormones, most conventional pesticides are not allowed, synthetic fertilizer and sewage sludge aren't allowed, bioengineered foods aren't allowed. So an organic pot pie would be made from organically grown chicken, wheat flour, and vegetables. Now, that said, the organic issue is complicated. There are many farmers out there who practice highly sustainable farming on a small scale, going far beyond organic certification requirements by practicing crop rotation, using heirloom varieties, and so forth, but not all of these farmers go through the hassle and the expense of getting organically certified. Also, depending on your reasons for eating organically, some organic options might not be the best options. There may be less point environmentally in purchasing an "organic" pot pie in a lot of packaging, shipped from across the country, than in buying one made locally, but with some or all conventionally grown meat or produce. And if you're interested in organic foods for health reasons, you might be better off eating well-washed homecooked vegetables and lentils than a lot of high-fat, white flour organic burritos or organic cookies. Whcih is not to say that there's not point in buying organic food, just that it's only one consideration. Food buying is a complex issue for people who are interested in healthful, delicious, sustainably grown food. Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com Wed Oct 12 13:13:29 -0700 2005 1695803 0 curiousbaker 2 1695820 best thing you can do is go to your local farmers markets and get to know your local farmers. talk to them, develop a relationship. get some of the best produce ever. they will be more than happy to tell you about their famring methods and what produce theyre currently growing etc etc. Wed Oct 12 17:44:56 -0700 2005 1695805 0 violet 3 1695831 Amen. Expecting to get great food at the supermarket is like expecting to hear great music on the radio. You might get lucky, but the chances are slim. Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com Thu Oct 13 09:10:45 -0700 2005 1695820 0 curiousbaker 3 1695836 That's fantastic if you have the time, money, and available resources. For 95% of us it isn't an option. Thu Oct 13 11:23:12 -0700 2005 1695820 0 Two Forks 4 1695838 Is that true? I'm not arguing with you; I just don't know about what the situation is in most of the country. I live in the Boston area, and there are a lot of farmer's markets during the season, so finding the time to hit one once a week isn't that hard; if you can't do Central Square on Monday, you can probably hit Harvard Square on Sunday. And there are lots of small farmers in New England if you are willing to drive out and buy meat or storable produce in bulk. Depending on what you buy, the prices can be better, worse or about the same as supermarkets. But I've never lived outside the New York/Boston areas, so I really don't know how widespread small farms and farmers markets are in the rest of the country. Certainly, there seem to be a lot in California, but I don't know about the Midwest and so on. Is it very hard to find direct-from-the-farm products in most of the country? Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com Thu Oct 13 11:52:21 -0700 2005 1695836 0 curiousbaker 5 1695842 I too live in the Boston area, actually in suburbia where there indeed are farms, but I don't have time to get to the farms or the farmer's markets, let alone the fact that the farms really do charge much higher prices to the public, and transportation costs are getting pretty silly to make extra trips. I find my situation is extremely common. Between time and cost the supermarket is really the only viable option, save the occasional visit to a Russo's or Kay's fruit if I happen to be in that area during their open hours. I find food costs are high enough without adding in the extra price of boutique vendors and gas for side trips. Thu Oct 13 12:19:18 -0700 2005 1695838 0 Two Forks 6 1695846 I guess it is a matter of where a person's priorities and interests lie, there is no right or wrong, simply what is important to you. Convenience and saving time and money are important to a lot of people. It is more important to me to support local farms because I want to see them survive and thrive in my community, so I am willing to pay a bit more at the Farmer's Market when it means I know my money goes into Mark or Hector's pocket, which in turn goes to local property taxes, local businesses, etc. I don't have the statistics, but I know we pay less (as a percentage of income) for food in this country than almost anywhere in the world. I also find trips to search out good food really enjoyable - for the whole family. We could be bike riding or mowing the lawn or watching TV on any given weekend, and many people would find those a better use of time, but we much prefer strolling through the Farmer's Market, going to Dry Creek Valley for wine and olive oil, driving to the coast for cheese and oysters, or walking up the road for great strawberries. Searching out local, sustainably grown food may take more time and sometimes cost a bit more, but I find it incredibly rewarding. Fri Oct 14 00:07:25 -0700 2005 1695842 0 Junie D 7 1695847 That's my feeling as well. I understand that people are strapped for time and money. But I save money lots of ways - by not buying a lot of convenience fods, by not eating out at restaurants, so I can afford to spend a little more at markets. (Also, not having cable or a cell phone and so on.) And, while farm-direct vegetables are a bit more expensive on average, buying meat directly from the farmer has definitely proved to save both time and money - I spend $5.50 a pound for all my meats, from low-end hamburger (which ends up expensive comparatively) to prime rib (which ends up dirt-cheap). Overall, it works out to savings, for a far superior product. Having the meat in my freezer, ready to go, means I make a couple trips a year instead of weekly trips for buying meat. I hit the grocery store once a week for staples and dairy (could do this less if I had more room to store things, but I live in a small apartment), and then one trip to the farmer's market for vegetables and other odds and ends. That's two trips a week, plus a couple extra a year, which isn't bad, I think. For someone else, though, my system wouldn't work, because they don't have the time or inclination to cook or they have issues of availability or what have you. As you say, it's a large part a question of priorities, though of course there are other issues involved. But I still have my original question, which is: are there lots of places in the country where there are so few family farms that buying directly from the farmer is just not an option? I just have no sense of this, and I would be interested in getting an idea. Maybe I have to start my own thread... Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com/ Fri Oct 14 00:08:33 -0700 2005 1695846 0 curiousbaker 8 1695848 I don't really know. Of course here in California it is easy, but in Louisiana when I lived there it was never difficult to buy delicious produce, eggs, meats and so on from small farmers. I think people who are interested can search good food out - just like searching out the good restaurants on Chowhound! USDA makes it easy to find a Farmers' Market www.ams.usda.gov/farmersmarkets/map.htm You can find CSAs through www.csacenter.org Local Harvest www.localharvest.org Link: http://www.eatwellguide.com/ Fri Oct 14 00:09:52 -0700 2005 1695847 0 Junie D 8 1695849 I think you missed the crux of my point. I work full time. I work essentially the same hours that the farms are open, and the farmers markets are mainly during the work day. Pricing aside, getting to the farms, several within two or three miles from my house, is never an option. Supermarkets are open at night. Adantage, supermarkets. As for meats, I prefer fresh meats to frozen, and I don't have a large enough freezer to buy a half of a cow. When I do freeze meats, it is because I take full advantage of deep discounts when meats go on sale--rarely would I end up paying $5.50/lb for any cut, save a rib-eye steak which I can usually find on sale for 5.99 and I buy a few then. So, for myself, and I think most people, it is not a question of priorities, but of economics and necessity. Fri Oct 14 00:10:51 -0700 2005 1695847 0 Two Forks 9 1695850 I work full time as well, but still buy all of my produce at Farmers Markets. I realize I'm lucky to live in California where we have night markets, but I imagine that most places have weekend markets. The Saturday market is certainly the most popular market in California. So we return to the matter of priorities: if you value farmer's market produce you're willing to devote a precious Saturday to food shopping. There's also the CSA (community supported agriculture) option. Many farms will allow you to purchase a pre packed box of produce weekly, often with delivery options available. This is perfect for people who are strapped for time. Fri Oct 14 00:11:41 -0700 2005 1695849 0 Morton the Mousse 10 1695859 csas are also usually very economical, in san francisco they have an excellent one through that farm whose name means ladybird in spanish? (sorry..) even around here, in virginia where the csa is quite... pricely. i think you end up paying less than you would at the grocery stores. also, i was at dollar general on tuesday and got two tins of muir glen organic tomatoes for 70 cents. Fri Oct 14 09:41:48 -0700 2005 1695850 0 violet 9 1695851 That is so strange that you don't have farmers markets open outside of "business" hours! That would totally piss me off. I too work full time but here on the South Shore there are a number of farmers markets that are open 4-7 pm on Thursdays, mornings on Saturdays or afternoons on Sundays. Plus there are a few local "farms" that are open nights and weekends. It would kill me if I had places close by that were open such rarefied hours.... I make it priority to buy locally grown produce and meats whenever possible. That is also why I will always buy a local macoun apple before an organic grannysmith from Mexico. Like another poster said I choose to save money other ways before scrimping on buying the freshest food possible. Fri Oct 14 00:12:22 -0700 2005 1695849 0 foodiex2 10 1695864 "That is so strange that you don't have farmers markets open outside of "business" hours" Strange? I don't think it's strange at all, jsut outside your reality. I think that is what this whole debate comes down to, is realizing that your reality is not everyone else's. Sure, I'd love to buy a half a cow and throw it in a freezer, or join a CSA, or make bi-weekly trips to the local farms or farmers markets, but none of those are practical for a working person who is not feeding a whole family and can not plan days in advance if he will be home to cook dinner this week. It has nothing to do with setting priorities, it is called dealing with life and trying to pay bills. Another point--here in the Boston area, ALL the supermarket chains sell locally grown produce, so why am I being considered one who does not support local agriculture just because I don't buy right from the farm? Fri Oct 14 10:52:56 -0700 2005 1695851 0 Two Forks 11 1695866 i think you're taking this as a personal attack, which i think we would all agree it is not. no one said that you, or anyone in your situation was any less than the rest of us because of your priorities. and priorities are different, which is what i think the above poster was trying to say.. due to income, time... not that one person's priorities can be considered of a higher moral standard... everyones life has different limitations on how we can operate. and because we were speaking generally, not just about you... not all supermarkets carry locally grown produce, and thus that point doesnt carry for everyone. it's great that boston area markets do that. but i dont think anyone here would look down on people for supermarket shopping. due to time.. budget.. whatever. Fri Oct 14 11:55:11 -0700 2005 1695864 0 violet 11 1695867 I wasn't going to post again, but since you've brought up the issue of other's realities: I work full-time. I also take classes. I am a single person who lives alone. I bought a freezer so that I could afford grass-fed organic meat. I am not rich. I would say I am solidly middle-class. By that I mean that I am lucky enough to have health insurance, be able to take a vacation every other year, and have a savings account. I don't have a cell phone, a car, cable, or a home computer. I bring my lunch to work every day. I eat out maybe once every two weeks. I never spend money on soda, frozen dinners, fast food, deli meats or prepared meals from the supermarket. I don't start my morning with a $4.00 coffee. I cook a big meat-based meal on Saturday night, share it with my boyfriend, and then freeze the leftovers for my weekday lunches and dinners. Once I've eaten my week's leftovers, I eat vegetarian for the rest of the week. I use up scraps in my cooking like a farm wife. Every bone goes in stock, every bread crumb gets used. I am sure I spend much less on food than most people. So please don't tell me my life is unrealistic. Now, I do understand that there are people who genuinely can't afford to buy sustainably grown local food. And I think that it's tragic that poor people are left in a position where the only vegetables they can afford are pesticide-ridden, the meat full of hormones and antibiotics. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. In the book, Holy Cows and Hog Heaven, the author-farmer describes a woman paying 75 cents for a soda, and then walking over to his table and snorting, "$2.00 for a dozen eggs! I would never pay that much!" He writes that he wanted to tell her that there was more nutritional value in one of his eggs than in her soda. I am glad to hear you say that you buy locally grown produce. I have found the selection of local produce at my supermarket to be very limited; usually just the most popular special crops, like corn and apples. But I'm very happy to hear that supermarkets are carrying local vegetables, and of course if you can get local products at the market, there is less reason for you to make a special effort to go to the farmers directly. Fri Oct 14 11:59:28 -0700 2005 1695864 0 curiousbaker 12 1695872 I agree with you completely, particularly with what you say about priorities. Everyone makes decisions based on what they place as priorities in their life. Consider this hypothetical example: "I work in front of a computer all day, run errands at night, and when I get home the last thing I want to do is stare at another screen looking up info on restaurants that I'm too tired to go to!" Sound familir? It's not a personal attack-- it's just that some of us find value (or simply fun) in reorganizing our lives to seek out local produce, just as others find reading chowhound relaxing, interesting or simply fun. Mr. Taster Fri Oct 14 13:44:35 -0700 2005 1695867 0 Mr. Taster 11 1695868 I meant strange because I too live in the Boston area (South Shore) and have friends who live west and north of the city and don't have this issue, plenty of farms and farmer markets are open nights and weekends. I also lives in Cambridge for years and always shopped Harvard Square on the weekends. " but none of those are practical for a working person who is not feeding a whole family and can not plan days in advance if he will be home to cook dinner this week." It has EVERYTHING to do with setting priorities it just you choose not to shop at local markets etc which of course is your choice. Your busy, your schedule changes therfore you don't make it a priority. I work full time, my husband works full time and we have a child and it completely practical for us, but onlu because we make it a priority. It would be much "easier" to just swing by a big box retailer but thats is not what we choose to do. We also never "plan days in advance" on who will be home to cook dinner. A well stocked pantry and basic menu planning means whoever is home can cook dinner. Again, we make dining as a family a priority and we do so at least 6 days week. Lastly to you comment "Another point--here in the Boston area, ALL the supermarket chains sell locally grown produce, so why am I being considered one who does not support local agriculture just because I don't buy right from the farm?" I have to disagree that all supermarkets around here carry/sell local produce. There are a number of chains around me (Hannaford, Stop and Shop, Shaws) that do not carry local produce on a regular basis. They have the occasional tomato here, blueberry there but most are from farms in western Mass, Maine, etc. None are from the farms that are right around the corner that I can go to myself. That combined with the fact that even if they did I would prefer to give my $$ right to the farmer rather than a middle man who most likely trucked to a distribution center and then back to my local store- a waste of gas and loss of freshness. Fri Oct 14 12:02:18 -0700 2005 1695864 0 foodiex2 12 1695874 Actually Stop and Shop and Shaw's absolutely do carry a very wide range of local produce, from right here in Eastern Mass. Perhaps you should speak to the produce manager. Also, if you want to get into the gas argument, it is FAR more wasteful for me to make a trip to a farm, if I could were they open at 7 or so at night which they aren't, than to have the "middleman" deliver several hundred pounds at a shot to a market. It should also be worth noting that much of the produce sold at "local" farm stands and markets, is NOT grown by the seller, and is often imported from far away. Perhaps that has not occurred to you but it is an absolute truth. Again, I don't know why this is escalating into an argument. Your lifestyle, despite how difficult you make yours seem, is NOT the same as mine, and I would venture yours is atypical. Obviuosly two incomes is going to change things, and obviously two people cooking changes things greatly. I have neither, so please get off your high horse and do not assume I can simply magically change my schedule so I can go frolick through the local farm and also cook dinner at my own convenience. Life doesn't work that way for most of us. Fri Oct 14 13:56:06 -0700 2005 1695868 0 Two Forks 13 1695875 "so please get off your high horse and do not assume I can simply magically change my schedule so I can go frolick through the local farm and also cook dinner at my own convenience. Life doesn't work that way for most of us." Wow. Really no need to get so nasty. Foodiex2 NEVER suggested you should change your schedule to accommodate buying at a local farm. She said "It has EVERYTHING to do with setting priorities it just you choose not to shop at local markets etc which of course is your choice. Your busy, your schedule changes therfore you don't make it a priority." That is all she said. Her priorities (and mine and many others) are, quite simply, *different* from yours. For those of us who choose to make it a priority to try and buy locally at the farm itself, good for us...that's our choice. If you choose to buy at a supermarket from a time-management issue, good for you...that's YOUR choice. It goes back to what each individual *chooses* to set as their priorities - you choose to make your lawn and home repairs a priority; there are others who choose to try and shop at local farms their priority, among other things. Oh - and shopping at farmers markets are NOT for the privileged, IMO, as you state above in reply to rworange. I'm struggling to pay my bills as much as you. But I *choose* to try and purchase from a local farm. I sacrifice elsewhere, because I *want* to purchase at a local farm. It's all a matter of personal choice. Fri Oct 14 14:18:29 -0700 2005 1695874 0 Linda W. 14 1695877 Linda- Thank you. You said it much better than I would have. Fri Oct 14 14:22:30 -0700 2005 1695875 0 foodiex2 15 1695895 Except I don't "choose" to make repairs to my home or to peridiodically mow the lawn. These are not optional tasks where I come from, and they don't take care of themselves. I don't begrudge you lifesyles, why do you feel the need to judge mine or to tell me that things beyond my own control are my "choices" or "priorities"? I'm done discussing this silly topic. Fri Oct 14 15:11:13 -0700 2005 1695877 0 Two Forks 16 1695900 "Except I don't "choose" to make repairs to my home or to peridiodically mow the lawn. These are not optional tasks where I come from, and they don't take care of themselves." Nonsense. Everything in life relates to the choices we make. You chose to buy a house. You chose to buy a house with a large yard. You did those things because those were priorities for you. As a matter of fact, I purposefully have made the opposite choice because I never wanted to be "married" to a house. That said, despite yard and house, you still eat. The fact is that you believe for whatever reason that it takes longer to go to a farmer's market to shop than to go to a large grocery store. Other people disagree and have simply been stating their opinion about why. "I don't begrudge you lifesyles, why do you feel the need to judge mine or to tell me that things beyond my own control are my "choices" or "priorities"?" I don't see that the people who have responded to your posts [including myself] have been judging your lifestyle as much as saying they disagree with your statements about how shopping at farmer's markets was for rich and privileged people who don't work. In my own post, I addressed all the points you made about why you CAN'T shop at a farmer's market and showed you how with my life, my choices, I choose to do the opposite of you. Look, you said on the Boston board, that you bought "tree ripened organic peaches" from Idaho at some local chain and weren't happy with the taste---they were mealy etc. As I see it, that is the crux of the difference between your philosophy about produce and that of the pro-farmer's market people: You live in Boston! No one who shops at a farmer's market would ever in a million years believe that a tree ripened peach could be transported from Idaho to Boston. It can't happen. Real tree ripened peaches are too fragile. A peach that is really tree ripened would be jam before it hit Chicago, let alone make it all the way to Boston. For some people the difference in taste is both important and discernable. For others less so. My mother couldn't taste the difference between a tree ripened peach trucked in from 40 miles away from her house and one that was shipped in 2000 miles away from Idaho if you labelled them. I can. For me arranging my schedule to enable me to shop organically and buy locally grown stuff is both important and worth the effort. For her, it isn't. Posting a response to every single post that disagrees with your assessment of farmer's markets, the quality of organic or whatever does not mean that the original posters were being argumentative or judgmental...its the person who keeps the debate going and with that note....... Fri Oct 14 15:41:24 -0700 2005 1695895 0 jenn 13 1695880 Sorry but it is a matter of choice. I work full time [often more than full time]; we live in one of the pricer parts of the country [Los Angeles metro area] with ridiculous gas prices; our family has 1 income because my husband is a stay home dad, and we still choose to shop at our local farmer's market on the weekend as opposed to the local chain. In the 12 plus years I've been shopping at farmer's markets, I have not found the organic produce at the market to cost me more than it would if I tracked it down at Whole Foods or the like. And currently I shop for a family of four. We do our shopping on Sunday mornings. Within five miles of our house, we have a choice of at least 3 markets that are running on Sunday morning and into the afternoon. There are accessible also markets on Saturdays. There is a weekly market on Thursday late afternoon early evening where I work--the Westwood part of LA. Farmer's markets are definitely NOT just for the privileged few---the markets in LA even take food stamps to encourage all residents to eat healthier food. Your negative comments about why someone who doesn't cook would go to a farmer's market---come on! one doesn't have to cook to eat a peach or make a salad. Plus many markets have prepared foods from small vendors. As for your comments about going to farms to fetch the food home: huh? I have a friend who lives in Indianapolis who visits a farm for stuff but that is certainly not the norm. Visiting a farm is something one does for a special outing--not a weekly sort of thing. Most farmers bear the brunt of the cost of the transportation because they drive to the cities for the markets. Other than the friend in Indianapolis, I don't know anyone who regularly does the reverse and we hang out with Slow Food people..... Given the inaccuracy of much of what you say, I'm not really sure if you have much experience with farmer's markets. We are all making a choice as to what our priorities are. Given your defensiveness on this topic, I find myself wondering if you are really comfortable with the choice you have made. Fri Oct 14 14:31:51 -0700 2005 1695874 0 jenn 14 1695894 For YOU it is about choice. Why do you people not realize that others have very different economic circumstance, and that you have luxuries available to you that many do not? Personally your position that you can judge me is more than a bit arrogant. Fri Oct 14 15:08:31 -0700 2005 1695880 0 Two Forks 11 1695869 This isn't an agrument like it's going to sound in the beginning. For a long time, I was a single person who worked horrendous hours and after work took care of a relative in the hospital. I don't cook that much at home either. As for planning meals, hah, I can't even plan where and what time I'm having lunch every day. Yet, I visited a farmers market every week (sometimes two) and when it was cherry season I would drive about an hour to go to a specific special farm to buy some. Like some people have said, I really ejoyed those trips. I am really into exploring different produce, chatting with the farmers, finding little unknown jams, olive oils, etc. So, despite your arguments, I know it can be done. Most farmers markets are on weekend mornings to allow working stiffs to go. For me, it was worth it to drag my butt out of bed at six am on Saturday and go. For you, it just doesn't interest you that much which is fine because we all have our interests. Despite all the talk on the board, I would rather pull my teeth out personally than shop at Trader Joes. It just annoys me to no end. As for cooking, over the years I don't know how many people on the board have tried to convince me that whipping up my own eclairs or whatever is so easy. I'd rather starve than cook, for the most part. In fact, my second post on Chowhound was asking the best frozen pie crust and I was just slammed for not making my own. So, lay off folks. Two Forks is just not that into it and nothing you say is going to change the way someone feels. Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/21/cat21.htm?371 Fri Oct 14 12:13:09 -0700 2005 1695864 0 rworange 12 1695873 Not "into it"? Nonesense. "Most farmers markets are on weekens", NO-- some are and they are awfully damned inconvenient. I wish I had time to drive an hour to go pick cherries, and while most of my work is during the week, I also do work on weekends (often 7 days a week), and what precious little time is left goes towards the banal necessities of home ownership, such as lawn mowing, going to the dump, doing repairs, and such. It is NOT about "the way I feel", it is about having a life which necessarily entails a different lifestyle than yours. Why on earth would I ignore my needs to drive half an hour to a farmer's market, for essentially the same product I can get at the supermarket when I need it for the same price or less, when I can not even plan far enough ahead as to whether I will use the stuff or end up dumping it on the compost heap? As for your original point-- if you don't cook at home and can't plan in advance, WHY are you visiting farmer's markets? It just makes no sense. At least it wouldn't for me. If it's just for entertainment value, great, but this discussion is about buying food, not about being entertained. You seem to feel I am advocating abolishing the local farm, or the farmer's markets. On the contrary, they are great for those who can afford the time and money. My point is these are not viable options for most people, despite the assumptions that you advocates make. The reality is, these are for the priveledged, not for the majority of us who struggle to pay bills and to find the time to get their needs taken care of. Fri Oct 14 13:47:05 -0700 2005 1695869 0 Two Forks 13 1695876 I think I understand where you're coming from. Look, I'm not rich. I don't own a house-- my rent is fully 35% of my takehome salary. I own my car outright, a 95 camry with 175,000 miles. I have no debt (other than the $300 on my mastercard now) and a savings account. I have a 9-5 job with work I don't ever have to take home, and I have a freelance seasonal job where I work nights from Nov-Feb. I can then pretty much relax with my 9-5 job for the rest of the year. My girlfriend (who does not work outside the house) and I have my evenings and weekends to ourselves. This affords us a lot of leisure time, but not a lot of money other than being able to go out to eat at budget/ethnic joints semi-regularly, which we both love to do (hence our love for chowhound). It also allows us to go to the multitude of weekend or evening farmers markets in the LA area, which again is something we love. Food is a shared passion of ours and we love talking with the farmers and learning about where our sustenance comes from. The downside of these choices we have made are that we certainly could not afford to buy a house in Los Angeles with this lifestyle. I could choose to ramp up my freelance job to make more money. I could encourage my girlfriend to get a job as she is a medical researcher and has the capacity to make a good income. This might allow us to scrape together the dough for a house, which then comes with all the many responsibilties of homeownership. Were we to go down this path, we would likely be in a similar situation to yourself, which in the long term will provide more economic stability. However I have chosen my priorities. They lie more with the simple life of having freedom and quality time with my girlfriend versus the "american dream". Many of those hard-working american dream types (like my stepfather, a self-made millionaire) would call me lazy (or at least not as hard-working as I could be), but that's a-ok with me! Diff'rent Strokes, as it were :) Mr. Taster Fri Oct 14 14:21:42 -0700 2005 1695873 0 Mr. Taster 14 1695892 Thank you, you seem reasonable. Apparently several others missed my original point and felt the need to attack, which has left me in a defensive position. I appreciate your life choices. Unfortunately circumstances have led me to a very different place, in which I do not have the leisure time or disposable income necessary to make food decisions on purely esoteric grounds. I must do the best I can with what I have to work with. BTW, My mortgage, taxes and insurance, along with a modest car payment use up 80% of my take-home (rents are much higher here, so renting wouldn't save a lot). Hoepfully this will change within the next 6 mo, but for now I eat pretty well given the circumstances. Fri Oct 14 15:05:52 -0700 2005 1695876 0 Two Forks 13 1695879 Well, you are just hopeless. Sic em chowhounds. My days were 6 am to midnight and I owned a home. So this whole, you don't have the time is nonsense. You personally can't appreciate the difference between a farm fresh piece of fruit and a supermarket piece of fruit. Some people just can't. No big deal. Or even if you can appreciate the difference, it isn't important enough to you to fit into your schedule. The point is that time can be made if this is important to you. It isn't. You find time to go to those supermarkets. Also, while this was long ago, I worked two jobs and went to Northeastern in Boston and commuted from Rockport and Swampscott to the city and STILL had time to go to Haymarket on Saturdays (long time ago when this was the only game in town). You wrote: >>> You seem to feel I am advocating abolishing the local farm, or the farmer's markets. On the contrary, they are great for those who can afford the time and money. My point is these are not viable options for most people <<< I don't think I said you were advocating anything. Please address your comments to the appropriate people. I said you were not interested. I believe I've stated that they are viable for most people if that is what they would like to do. You don't. So please don't speak for other people. As to prices, I am shocked that most supermarket produce is more expensive than farmers markets besides not being as fresh and rotting sooner. So my money is wasted at a Safeway. As to not planning, the food I buy at the farmers markets dictates what I eat during the week. So after a long day I would come home to some equisite peaches or baked goods from an artisan baker for breakfast. There is such an invention as a freezer if you can't use things up. I don't see the difference from buying stuff from a supermarket and dumping it and buying stuff from a farmers market and dumping it if you don't use it. You are still buying fruit, meat and produce I assume. You are just looking for excuses and I feel your post was unwarrented as I was just agreeing with you. You are just not into it. So what? You seem to have enough time to post on Chowhound though in your hectic life. Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/21/cat21.htm?371 Fri Oct 14 14:30:59 -0700 2005 1695873 0 rworange 14 1695889 Well, by attempting to tell me what I do and do not like, misstating my purposes, and completely missing the original point that I can breeze into the supermarket at any hour to buy virtually the same local produce (which will not "rot sooner") you have simply proven my point. Did I say somewhere that I am not "interested"? No, but read into it whatever yur dimestore psychology makes you. Have a nice day. You are clearly a superior being. Fri Oct 14 15:00:35 -0700 2005 1695879 0 Two Forks 13 1695896 Where I live , at the farmers markets you see all types of people buying. Yes there are foodies who have all day to browse, but there are also people taking off from the office at lunch to pick up cheap fresh vegies, latino mothers buying big discount bags of chili peppers and onions cheaper than the bodega, little Russian ladies trying to haggle down the vendors, seniors getting their fresh fruit and vegies for the week, mothers with kids in strollers taking air and getting groceries at the same time,etc etc... Your point,about farmers markets "The reality is, these are for the priveledged, not for the majority of us who struggle to pay bills and to find the time to get their needs taken care of" is not the experience I have of Farmers Markets. My husband and myself are NOT "priveledged". We do not own a home, can't afford to buy in the area in which we work. We struggle to pay bills, and hope one day to be able to afford a home somewhere, but for now, people like you who own a home are far more "priveledged" . We keep our foods costs low by purchasing vegies from the farmers markets, carefully choosing items that are reasonably priced, and otherwise eating very simply. I try to go to a weekday market once a week, because they have better prices than the weekend market. But if I don't have time any week because of my work schedule, my husband, who works full time two jobs, enjoys hitting the am Sunday market where in less than 1/2 hour he picks up enough vegies for the week, and usually under $20- And most of the produce is organic and at prices less than what I would have to pay for the same items from the conventional grocery store closest to my home I am not familiar with Boston, but have spent time in other parts of the East Coast, NY, in the South and in New Mexico, and in general I and have never found a good selection of local produce when grocery shopping. If you do have local produce available in the grocery store in close proximity to your home, then you are luckier than most. Fri Oct 14 15:16:39 -0700 2005 1695873 0 ciaolette 11 1695881 Wow, Two Forks, why so negative right from the start? This thread started out so innocently and it seems you have plenty of self-justification to not frequent farmers markets for reasons you've outlined in various posts. That's YOUR reality. Fine, but why criticize other hounds who enjoy farmers markets or those who prefer eating organic foods. Why do people have to even justify why they prefer organic vs non-organic foods? I'm sorry you don't have the time but at the risk of sounding facetious: you do seem to have plenty of time for this topic. I know - we all have our priorities. Excuse me while I peel an organic banana ;) Fri Oct 14 14:44:45 -0700 2005 1695864 0 Flynn 12 1695884 I am not critical of others, I am merely defending my position, and it did not start out hostile. People are free and should do as they wish. Sorry, but I really can't leave work right now to go off to the farm, and yes, you are coming off a bit facetiously. Personally, I don't see why a few people on this board seem to feel A> that somehow I do have the time and money to spend something that I don't have the time and money for B> Everyone should be willing to rearrange their lives, if possible, to do these things, or else the interest in supporting local produce isn't there C> that by continually hucking me I will feel any more willing to "give in" to their urging me. I just don't get it. Fri Oct 14 14:54:44 -0700 2005 1695881 0 Two Forks 13 1695890 Perhaps everyone should stop posting to this thread to give Two Forks an chance to re-read the posts which don't say what he/she seems to think they say. Otherwise this is just someone who is trolling and trying to keep a flame burning. Fri Oct 14 15:02:43 -0700 2005 1695884 0 rworange 1 1695806 What makes a pot pie "organic" is that the majority of ingredients should be organically grown. Some companies live by that rule and all components will in fact be organically grown (flour, sugar, peas, spices etc) and the chicken will be free range with no antibiotics/hormones etc. However, IIRC there are no govt standards yet on what % of an item needs be organic to be labelled as such so many items only be partially so. Wed Oct 12 13:18:17 -0700 2005 1695803 0 foodiex2 2 1695814 There are now, actually. I believe this is right: 100% Organic means just that (not including water and salt) Organic means at least 95% organic Made with organic ingredients means at least 75% organic Any lower than that, and the producer can only put the word organic in the ingredient list before the particular organic ingredient. Link: http://seasonalcook.blogpost.com Wed Oct 12 15:22:10 -0700 2005 1695806 0 curiousbaker 1 1695807 Please click the link below for onganic information from Wikipedia. My own feeling is that I definitely prefer organic foods but I would not eat either an "organic" or non-organic pot pie from a supermarket. If I had my choice of eating organic vegetables or fruits or meat/chicken, I will always choose organic. They have been grown without icky chemicals and pesticides. Non-organic vegies have been grown in soil that's been sprayed and depleted of minerals. Organic vegies are grown in richer soil that has more potassium. When I buy from local organic farmers, the vegetables are fresher and taste better. The peppers, cucumbers and apples haven't been sprayed with wax. The chickens are free-range and not pumped with lots of hormones. I'll pay extra for what I'm not getting. Of course the debate of organic vs. non-organic will rage on between consumers but I know what's better for me and I'll always choose organic. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food Wed Oct 12 14:13:05 -0700 2005 1695803 0 Flynn 2 1695819 While I agree that avoiding pesticides and non-sustainable growing practices is good for health, the environment and so on, choosing organic vs conventional is complex. Recently I had to choose between conventional pears from Lake County (just north-east of me) and organic pears from New Zealand. Without hesitation I choose the local pears. The organic pears may have been grown in a non-polluting way (for lack of a better phrase) but then tons of fossil fuel were used to ship them half way across the world and keep them cold the whole way. Wed Oct 12 17:43:43 -0700 2005 1695807 0 Junie D 3 1695823 Yeah, you should consider the "food miles" (a term I've heard more often in England but am starting to hear more now in the States, meaning the distance your food has been shipped). Of course it really depends on *why* you're choosing to eat organic foods. If you buy organic because you believe organic foods are healthier for *you*, than perhaps food miles aren't relevant to your buying decision; if you buy organic because you're concerned about the overall health of the planet, then food miles are an important consideration. As for eating locally and shopping at farmers' markets, as a Californian I have the luxury of being able to eat locally and seasonally without making huge sacrifices, but I know for people in other places doing so would severely limit their diets! Wed Oct 12 19:14:19 -0700 2005 1695819 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1695810 It is a labelling program administered by USDA (see link below for more info). The certification process is rather bureaucratic and difficult (and, I think, expensive) so maybe it's not surprising that large companies that make things such as pot pies have certification and many small producers with good sustainable practices don't have the wherewithal (or can't be bothered). The program was started a few years ago because the term "organic" had been meaningless in commerce--there were no standards that had to be met. Can you tell I'm a Washington policy wonk?! ; ) Link: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/indexNet.htm Wed Oct 12 14:47:44 -0700 2005 1695803 0 LindaMc 2 1695827 "Organic" in farming means pretty much the exact opposite of what it means in chemistry. In chemistry, "organic" means "composed of oxygen, hydrogen, and carbon". Hydrocarbons. Gasoline is "organic", as are many of the most poisonous substances known to man. In farming, it means "grown without artificial fertilizers or pesticides". To be certified organic, you have to basically prove that your land has had no artificial fertilizer or pesticides applied to it for some number of years. I think it's typically three years. Most organic farmland wasn't organic fifty years ago, obviously; our forefathers routinely spread oceans of stuff on their farms that it's illegal to even THINK about today. There probably wasn't a farm in America in, say, 1920, that didn't have a big tub of lead arsenate on hand for bugs; lead and arsenic, yum. A while back, we bought a cabin in the country that had a jar of Agent Orange in the shed, for blackberries (a major pest in this area). It is the pesticides that are the most offensive to the organic mindset; the poisons are much, much worse. Fertilizers tend not to be "natural" but they are usually chemically similar to natural fertilizers. When they're contaminated with heavy metals like lead and zinc, they can be a problem. But remember that a lot of "natural" fertilizers like cow manure, or more specifically cow piss, are MASSIVE environmental contaminants, even more so than purely artificial fertilizers. So: if you keep your land free of artificial pesticides and fertilizers for X amount of time, you can be certified "organic". It doesn't mean "better" or "more sustainable" or anything else. It DOES mean, at least in the case of pure foods (like fruit, vegetables, and grains, as opposed to processed food like Boca Burgers and veggie burritos) that it is going to be missing a lot of things that are bad for you. The US government, in their considerably less than infinite wisdom, has decided to shred the old meaning and make it legal to say "organic" even if some percentage (I want to say 25%) of the stuff in it isn't. This applies to manufactured food products. If you're making "organic" pot pies, you have to use organic ingredients -- the flour, the potatoes, the carrots, whatever -- have to be organically grown. But you can mix in some conventional, if "supplies are limited". It's a total cop-out, of course, and is designed specifically to give a better entry point into the organic market to big companies like Kraft. I'm sure McDonalds will have organic products soon. The real problem is that the subtext of the word "organic" is "real" -- and that's just plain going to be missing from any manufactured product. A conventional apple is far more real than the strictest organic burrito. Now, even bread is a processed food; but the aisles and aisles of processed microwaveable "organic" treats in stores like Trader Joe's are simply not real food. There's no telling what the hell is really in there, no matter what the sticker on the front says. I'll buy organic when I can, because I like the idea of sustainability and the "hand of the farmer". But I will always buy real food, even if it's not organic; we don' even own a microwave. To me, microwaved organic food is just wrong on so many levels. "Food miles" is an interesting concept, but it's more than that; I'm certainly not going to buy any kind of parmesan cheese that isn't Parmegiana-Reggiano, and I don't particularly care if it's organic or not. It's real food, even though it's processed. Wed Oct 12 22:27:55 -0700 2005 1695810 0 Steve Thornton 3 1695832 I totally agree. I had just wanted to point out that the organic program is a labelling/marketing program run by USDA. Most of the farmers from whom I buy produce, meat and eggs at my market are not certified organic, even though almost all of them farm with standards at least as strict as USDA's. And I don't have a microwave either! Thu Oct 13 09:52:51 -0700 2005 1695827 0 LindaMc 1 1695833 "Organic foods, exactly what does that mean?" To me (usually): "lower quality and wastefully more expensive" Thu Oct 13 10:18:14 -0700 2005 1695803 0 MSPD 2 1695844 If you think Organic food is lower quality, you are not buying from the right vendors. Thu Oct 13 12:33:52 -0700 2005 1695833 0 Morton the Mousse 3 1695863 Unless the term organic evolves into something more consistent and meaningful, the "right vendors" I buy from will remain farmers who can tell me exactly how things were grown. Fri Oct 14 10:32:11 -0700 2005 1695844 0 MSPD