302439 Tue Aug 02 16:27:46 -0700 2005 32 29 Not About Food 0 1693183 First of all, all respondents are asked to PLAY NICE. I've been a vegetarian for two years now, for ethical reasons. I thought long and hard about it one summer and I felt I could not abide the suffering that animals undergo just so I might have a tasty meal. Perhaps this is what doomed me from the start. My appetite wanted meat (it never seemed physically repulsive, I had grown up with it) but my conscience/intellect refused to allow it. I have always loved food and cooking so being a vegetarian was novel for a while (the first year) but soon became a chore. I resented always being overcharged for vegetable-pasta when eating out with friends and family, or being made to eat alone when visiting at home (because my family continued their meat eating ways and the kitchen accomodates but one cook), etc. Of course, I miss my favourites: very simple meat dishes like spicy sausages, steak and Italian sandwiches. I'm thinking of starting to eat meat once a week, as long as it is responsibly raised and slaughtered. That will remove most of my objections. But I'm wondering if anyone has been in this same situation? How do you deal with those who have come to know you as a vegetarian, and make fun of your 'slipping'? Furthermore, I'm quite thin now and I like myself roughly in this proportion (if only because I'm too cheap to buy new clothes!). Anyone have any trouble in this respect? Tue Aug 02 16:27:46 -0700 2005 0 Dukeofyork 1 1693186 I'm being a good chowhound citizen and moving this. Hope that's okay. In my late teens/early 20s, I was vegetarian. Then after getting married, I ate normally. I "reverted" to healthy eating when I was pregnant and have been pretty consistently following that now, but I'm not a vegetarian. As much as I like fruits, vegetables and grains, I find them terribly boring without meat. I detest faux burgers, soy cheese or anything that's trying to overtly replace meat/dairy. Yuk. What I have taken from being a vegetarian (which was for health and humane reasons) is that I am still a conscious eater. I don't buy much meat for our entire family, but I try to buy from local farmers, local butchers, etc. We don't gorge ourselves on meat by any means. But it is part of our diet. As a vegetarian, I became borderline anemic, which was one of the reasons I re-introduced meat. But at the same time, I also won't buy out-of-season produce because the act of trucking/flying it thousands of miles to my grocery store can't be helping the environment. We don't eat out much. We don't eat fast food. I will usually get a salad of some sort if I am forced to eat in a chain restaurant. Or I'll get soup, preferably something vegetable based. I have found if you don't make a big deal out of what you eat, other people won't either. And I have also found that when you start special requesting veg food, you'll be overcharged and underwhelmed. I don't think humans are natural vegetarians. We have incisors. As someone pointed out, we're at the top of the food chain. Kudos though to those who make the decision not to eat meat. Tue Aug 02 17:06:31 -0700 2005 1693183 0 MkeLaurie 2 1693192 I was a vegetarian for about 8 years many years ago. When I was 6 months pregnant with my second child I was HUNGRY. I started eating a little poultry then and segged into eating everything ( except liver which I still hate). I really think at the time that I craved protein. I think I eat much healthier now than when I was vegetarian...much less saturated fats because I limit cheese. The irony to all this is that the child I was carrying when I started craving meat again has been a vegetarian since age 16 (now 24) and lives on an organic farm. I ( jokingly) blamed her for my lapse back into meat eating! Tue Aug 02 19:16:14 -0700 2005 1693186 0 meagan 3 1693215 During my early vegetarian stages (late teens), I actually ate very poorly. My typical "vegetarian" meal was fries and a Coke at McDonald's. Ah, youth. But then I cut out all the food that was bad for me which, because I was a notoriously picky eater back then, left me with an exceptionally limited diet. I didn't like beans, wouldn't eat spinach, etc. It was very nutritionally unbalanced. Thankfully, I'm now a much more adventerous eater/better cook and eat a wider variety of good foods. Wed Aug 03 10:00:09 -0700 2005 1693192 0 MkeLaurie 1 1693187 I have countless friends who have made the conversion from vegetarian/vegan to omnivore. I was raised in a vegetarian household, and my partner was vegetarian for 11 years. I have spent an enormous amount of time researching the science and pondering the morality behind vegetarianism. I hope that my thoughts are helpful to you. The health issue: Most of the health problems associated with eating meat derive from eating an excess of meat (heart disease, obesity, high cholesterol) or from eating low grade meat (hormone imbalances, mad cow, e coli). There are no health problems associated with eating a moderate amount of high quality meat. Limit your meat consumption to reasonable servings a few meals a week. Eat lots of fresh fruits, veggies, whole grains and legumes. Many vegetarians will have long term health problems due to mineral deficiencies. There are far more health problems associated with a vegetarian diet than with a well balanced, omnivorous diet. The moral issue: Consider the Native American, the Bushman, the Aborigine. Do you consider these people to be immoral? They hold a great deal of respect for the animals that they eat as a necessity of life. Condemn the morality of meat eating and you condemn all hunter gatherer societies. Consider the wild cat, the bear, the chicken, the ape. Are these animals immoral? They eat a carnivorous/omnivorous diet because that is their nature. There is nothing immoral about following nature. The environmental issue: It is impossible to live in our society without impacting the environment. Even eating a vegan diet- the crops you eat displace native plants and animals and eliminate natural ecosystems. It is always a matter of degree. When you eat sustainably raised meats you are making less of an impact than when you eat factory farmed foods. When you eat small portions of meat you are making less of an impact than when you eat the diet of the average American. I buy all of my food from local farmers markets and I feel that my diet is more environmentally sound than that of most vegetarians. When I discuss my food choices with all but the most dogmatic vegetarians, they are impressed. The social issue: If people tease you, teach them. Explain why you decided to begin eating meat again and how you have come to be a responsible meat eater. It will take people some time to get used to it, but the teasing will not last long. Mrs. Mousse was vegetarian for 11 years and she was teased plenty when she first started eating meat, but now it hardly gets mentioned (she was suffering from severe anemia although she had an impeccable vegetarian diet). Ultimately, the single most important thing is your health. You need to do what is healthiest for you. If your body is craving meat, you need to eat meat. Tue Aug 02 17:07:23 -0700 2005 1693183 0 Morton the Mousse 2 1693194 I don't mean to be contentious, but condemning meat eating in the 21st century US is not the same as condemning all hunter-gatherer or meat-eating societies. Clearly there is a massive difference between say, pre-colonial Native Americans and Perdue Chicken farms. also, choosing to not to eat meat because it doesn't agree with your morals isn't necessarily condemning anyone else. I don't eat most types of meat because I cannot ethically/morally support the practices commonly found in raising animals for slaughter. My husband eats all types of meat, in large quantities. So does everyone else in my family and nearly all of my friends. I don't consider them immoral nor do I condemn them for meat eating. Occasionally I even cook them meat. I know that there are lots of self-righteous vegetarians and vegans out there, but not all of them are like that. Tue Aug 02 20:10:44 -0700 2005 1693187 0 nc213 2 1693204 There are things in human nature that "civilized" society strives to curb such as infidelity, rape, theft, & murder. These are clearly part of our nature as they have been around forever, moreover, certain other primates engage in forms of these behaviors. We assume they don't know the difference between right & wrong... Furthermore, hunter-gatherers obviously have different circumstances with more of a need to utelize what is available. It's kind of like saying that if you don't think the Donner Party was wrong to eat dead humans to survive, than cannibalism must be OK. I'm not saying I think eating meat is murder (even though I kind of do and I'm a hypocrite because I do it), only that this particular argument against vegetarianism, along with "but we have canine teeth", does not stand up to argument. Tue Aug 02 23:51:50 -0700 2005 1693187 0 Cleo 1 1693188 I'm moving this post (which is not mine) because I was happy to read it today. Cheers to curiousbaker! Re(1): Vegetarian Thinking of Quitting From: kjweldon@yahoo.com (curiousbaker) Posted: August 02, 2005 at 12:06:46 I was a veggie for six years, and gave it up when I was in culinary school. It's hard to eat a plateful of side dishes while your classmates are downing duck. I didn't have the willpower. I also started craving red meat, which I had never particularly liked. I've always been slightly anemic, so it wasn't surprising I would want meat as I got older. I've also known a lot of vegetarians who had no desire for meat in their early twenties, but started to crave it as they got a little older. Bodies change.   Like you, my major concerns were environmental/ethical. I don't like the way animals are raised in the U.S., but you don't have to buy your meat from the usual sources. I have become an evangelist for buying meat directly from small organic farms. I bought some pork recently, and the farmer took us for a walk in the woods to see the pigs. They had three acres of New England forest to roam in, and he moved them to a different three-acre area every week or so. These were happy pigs, and the land was being used to support people in such a sustainable, reasonable way. I would rather eat pigs that have been raised like that than soybeans grown in vast monoculture farms in the Midwest, then shipped to New England by frieght. Searching for humanely, sustainably grown meat is an adventure - it's a bit of work, but you also meet interesting people.   I am glad I spent a few years without meat, because being vegetarian definitely expanded my culinary horizons. I am not dependent on meat in my meals, and I generally only cook with meat on the weekends, though I might eat leftovers during the week. I feel like a meat meal should be something of an event, as a sign of respect for the animal, but also as a matter of frugality. Vegetables still make up the backbone of my diet, and I think that's healthy.   I was plump as a veggie and I'm plump as a meat eater. My problem is sugar and certain medications, not meat. I've know people who've gained weight adding meat back into their diets, and people who have lost weight. A lot depends on the kind of vegetarian you've been. If you eat lots of cheese and sugar and white flour (coke-and-pizza vegetarians), introducing meat might actually help you lose weight. But even if your diet is excellent, a weekly meat meal is unlikely to make a big difference.   As for people who might tease you, you just can't be worried about that sort of thing. Vegetarianism is hard, and lots of people stop doing it. (In fact, I can think of seven former vegetarian friends off the top of my head.) Anyone who would tease you about your eating choices is clearly immature and not worth paying attention to. (Of course, if you were a particularly self-righteous, irritating vegetarian, which it doesn't sound like you were, you will get what's coming to you.) Link: The Seasonal Cook   Tue Aug 02 17:09:23 -0700 2005 1693183 0 pitu 2 1693199 How did you find the pig farmer? I live in the Boston suburbs and have been trying to buy meat from small organic sources. I'd appreciate it very much if you could tell me how to contact this farmer or any others. Tue Aug 02 21:56:13 -0700 2005 1693188 0 joysea 3 1693211 I got my pork, which is amazingly delicious, from Mamashoe Farm in Petersham. (www.mamashoe.org) He's just started selling pork to Oleana, so his supply is likely to get limited fast. He also sells at the Tuesday Copley Square farmers' market. I bought a whole pig and split it four ways with friends. It was $5.50/pound, with the fatback and trotters thrown in for free. Well-raised pork was hard to find; I hope he can managed to secure himself in his business through the restaurant market while still being able to sell to individuals. Hard to do while keeping small. Grass-fed lamb is actually pretty widely available, comparatively. I bought from Sojourner Sheep, which was written up in Yankee recently, and so may also be experiencing more demand. More success for the local farmers! I put in my order for fall lamb already. I found this farm through the eatwild website, which gives information on places to find grass-fed meat by state - www.eatwild.com. From the same site, I found River Rock Farm, which is not the same River Rock Farm which sells at a number of farmers' markets in Boston, though I hear they're good, too. I bought first a 1/4, then a 1/2 cow, split again with friends. (Also $5.50/pound, plus free stock bones.) A freezer is really helpful if you're trying to buy this way. Individual cuts are very expensive, but whole/half animals are pretty cheap, considering. EatWild also has great information about the health benefits of grass-fed meat. I've become convinced that a lot of the human health problems related to meat are a result of what the meat was fed and how it was raised. Good luck. Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com/ Wed Aug 03 09:42:21 -0700 2005 1693199 0 curiousbaker 4 1693213 Preach It!!! Wed Aug 03 09:44:50 -0700 2005 1693211 0 krissywats 3 1693212 I found a 'meat club' not long ago that I've been dying to join but I just don't have the freezer space to do it in NYC. In the end, it's super cheap and everything comes from small farms, all organic. Check link below. I figured it out once, with my weekly delivery of organic produce from my CSA and if I could do this meat of the month club, I'd be saving a TON from what I spend at Whole Foods for meat and veggies. Good luck on your search! I'm so heartened by the number of people on this board that have made changes in their lives towards treating animals and workers and the earth in a more ethical manner. I really believe if we keep it up eventually they'll have to change the entire industry. In regards to the masses of soybeans that were mentioned above: some interesting studies out recently about soybeans and the level of estrogen in the body and reduced sperm count in men...I'm not sure tofu is the answer either. Link: http://www.wholesomeharvest.com/ Wed Aug 03 09:43:10 -0700 2005 1693199 0 krissywats 4 1693216 So where are these studies? I keep hearing people talking about soybeans and estrogen... but I can't find any actual resources. Wed Aug 03 10:08:52 -0700 2005 1693212 0 Noah 5 1693217 I have a medical journal mag at home (I am not there now) - I promise I'll post the study when I get back. It was a natural health/medical journal we got at Whole Foods and I can't, for the life of me, remember the name of it but something like the Journal of Natural Medicine or something like that. Quite extensive article about this study. We were floored by the results. And we stopped eating edamame and soy burgers....but I have tumors that are possibly estrogen related so I have to be careful. Wed Aug 03 10:39:42 -0700 2005 1693216 0 krissywats 5 1693225 This is a good tool for that sort of thing...not sure how science-y a study you want. Link: http://scholar.google.com/ Wed Aug 03 12:34:27 -0700 2005 1693216 0 joypirate 5 1693229 You can't find the studies because they are bogus. If increased estrogen and reduced sperm count could be blamed on soybeans, Asia would have the highest cancer rates and the lowest birth rates. And we all know that's not true. Eating meat causes all sorts of cancer, ecoli, mad cow, heart disease, obesity... and who knows yet what all those lovely chemicals, growth hormones, and antibiotics will do to you. Maybe if you all hunted and slaughtered your own meat instead of rolling up to the takeout window in your giant dvd playing SUV you wouldn't be so fat! Good luck! Wed Aug 03 15:01:11 -0700 2005 1693216 0 Pablo 6 1693238 So much for playing nice... "You can't find the studies because they are bogus." Read The Whole Soy Story by Kaayla Saniel, PhD and then tell me that soy is healthy. In fact, Japanese males are starting to have serious problems with low sperm count and high estrogen levels. Japan has not had this problem traditionally because the traditional Japanese diet had very little soy in it, usually in a fermented form. The new trend of mass market soy products is leading to long term health problems that are only starting to appear. Soy is a very unhealthy food and I will not eat it. "Eating meat causes all sorts of cancer, ecoli, mad cow, heart disease, obesity... and who knows yet what all those lovely chemicals, growth hormones, and antibiotics will do to you." Have you read the numerous posts about eating high quality meat in moderation that is raised without hormones or antibiotics? None of these problems are associated with a well balanced, omniverous diet of organic meat and produce. Link: http://www.thewholesoystory.com/index.php Wed Aug 03 17:32:52 -0700 2005 1693229 0 Morton the Mousse 6 1693239 Dude. Relax. I eat only organic, hate SUVs, never eat fast food and I'M the one that brought it up. The medical digest I read was from a Whole Foods - a holistic (read that as 'hippy') medical journal doing a study on soybeans. Search around before you decide it's all bogus. No one is out to get the hippies. This is a serious crunchy granola hippy relating this..... And because you say 'we all know that isn't true' doesn't make it so. Read some studies (by hippies): http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNF01SoyBeatrice.htm http://www.wholistichealingresearch.com/Newsletters/NLDownloads/IJHC-WHR%20NL%20Aug04.pdf (I mean, serious granolas on that last one) Evidently, the issue for what is eaten in fermented soy products is different than the way we are consuming soy products here: "There are some redeeming qualities to soy, however these are found primarily in fermented soy products like tempeh, miso and natto and soybean sprouts. If you want to get some health benefits from soy, stick to these four forms and pass up the processed soy milks, soy ‘burgers’, soy ‘ice cream’, soy ‘cheese’, and the myriad of other soy junk foods that are so readily disguised as health foods." Just like everything, moderation, being careful if you have certain predispositions (like to estrogens), and realizing the jury is still out on a lot of issues. But it helps to realize that yes, there is merit to some of this stuff and that Asian cultures are eating the fermented kind - not soy cheese. Otherwise you're just as bad as the SUV driving, fast-food eaters you are rallying against. Wed Aug 03 17:36:35 -0700 2005 1693229 0 krissywats 7 1693248 Sorry I completely forgot that soybeans kill more people than meat! Maybe SUV's kill more meat eaters? Wonder what you all think of people eating other domestic animals like dogs, cats, and horses? Surely you don't approve of that? Must be a cultural thing! :) Wed Aug 03 19:45:55 -0700 2005 1693239 0 Pablo 8 1693257 Um....what? Lost me..... Wed Aug 03 21:41:37 -0700 2005 1693248 0 krissywats 6 1693256 A little research says otherwise. You want a study? How about this study from the Johns Hopkins Children's Center and the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health? It found that "male rats whose mothers were fed diets containing genistein, a chemical found in soybeans, developed abnormal reproductive organs and experienced sexual dysfunction as adults." Also, "the researchers say the increasing popularity of soy and soy-based foods may warrant further research to determine if genistein exposure in the womb and during breast-feeding influences human reproductive development." Suzy, who happily drives her SUV to pick up beef at the neighborhood supermarket, and is very grateful for animal-based research. Link: http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/pages/news/archivedetails.cfm?newsid=129 Wed Aug 03 20:51:54 -0700 2005 1693229 0 SuzyInChains 3 1693250 http://www.psfc.blogspot.com/ is my new favorite source of info on organic products - I just read something on this blog about organic meats that gives the name of the purveyor. The blog is from a members grocery store in NY, but could be helpful I think . . . Wed Aug 03 20:00:42 -0700 2005 1693199 0 pitu 1 1693191 I used to be a vegetarian 20 years ago. I did it mostly for health reasons, but also for philosophical reasons. I am no longer a vegetarian. Weight is not an issue for me, whether I'm eating meat or not. Sugar is my vice, and I have to control that to keep from getting fat. I am sympathetic to the logic of vegetarianism. In an abundant society such as ours, it seems cruel to eat animals when there are soybeans. On the other hand we humans are hard-wired to crave meat, because it is a high-quality source of protein. Should we give into the craving? I have not resolved this quandary to my satisfaction. Most of the time, I don’t think about it, and I eat animals when the mood strikes. As an aside, I am impatient with the self-righteousness of some vegetarians. I know a vegetarian who is more concerned with how he treats animals than how he treats his own children. I once saw him being unkind to his 7-year-old, and then spend the next 10 minutes trying to catch a wasp in the kitchen so that he could release it outside, unharmed. From a moral standpoint, he would have been better off spending the time improving his relationship with his child instead of bothering with a stupid wasp. You don’t strike me as a person in this camp, I’m just making an observation about attitudes I’ve seen among certain vegetarians. As far as the health aspects of eating meat, I recommend some entertaining reading. Gary Taube’s excellent essay, “The Soft Science of Dietary Fat” debunks some of the major criticisms leveled against a well-marbled steak. Here is a link I found: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/taubes.html. If this link doesn’t work, do a google search and you’ll find other sites that carry this essay. There is a book, “Sacred Cow, Abominable Pig” by Marvin Harris, which talks about food and cultures. Among other things, he discusses the fact that humans, when given a choice between say, eating insects versus eating mammals for protein, will choose the mammals. I was going to recommend that you check into buying kosher meats, since the laws of Kashut specifically seek to avoid animal cruelty. For example, Jews are forbidden to remove the limb of an animal for consumption and leave the rest of the animal alive. When gathering eggs, the hen must be sent away so she does not see her eggs being removed. The knife used for slaughtering must be as sharp as possible to minimize suffering of the animal. However, these ancient laws don’t necessarily forbid some of the practices of factory farming, such as keeping veal immobile. There is a debate in the Jewish community about extending the laws of Kashrut to keep up with advances in animal farming. Here is a link that presents this debate succinctly: http://learn.jtsa.edu/topics/luminaries/monograph/forum_ar.shtml As far as people teasing you, humbug on them. Once they see you’re not bothered by what they think, they’ll leave you alone. You can use the excuse that your doctor told you to start eating some meat. People usually shut up fast when you start a sentence with “my doctor told me…” Tue Aug 02 19:12:39 -0700 2005 1693183 0 La Dolce Vita 1 1693207 Some very interesting responses, and interesting information (I'm intrigued at the idea of not letting the hen see her eggs being removed). I wonder if it would have worked out differently for you if you had slipped into it gradually, as a friend of mine did, eating less meat until it gradually disappeared from your diet. I also wonder if you might have an easier time if you didn't precisely quantify it now as once a week. As an omnivore, I have never been in the same eating situation. However, I do have an opinion about people making fun of you, which is that you should never let it daunt you. If the teasing comes from friends, we can hope it will be gentle; if from non-friends, you'll completely ignore it. And you'll probably evolve two responses - one will be a funny rejoinder, and the other will be a serious response about your considerable thought on the subject. Don't worry about that part. Friends tease each other. Besides, you're not "slipping" - you're re-thinking things. We all do the best we can to juggle our priorities. Wed Aug 03 00:27:34 -0700 2005 1693183 0 Fida 1 1693208 I eat meat now, after years of not doing so. I eat what I think of as "ethical meat" - free-range, organicly raised - except when I am drunk. Who is going to mock you? The carnivores will get over it, but the vegetarians may keep on forever... let them. Or if you feel hostile, ask them about sustainable vegan agriculture. There is no answer to that one. I gained a lot of weight when I started eating meat. But I had been about thirty pounds underweight before then. Now I am overweight. That's another story that I don't think has to do with my very moderate meat consumption. What I'm getting at in general is: please eat good meat from ethical producers, in moderate amounts, and take care of yourself. No one can mock you for that. Wed Aug 03 01:20:00 -0700 2005 1693183 0 Noah 1 1693209 Just to say that I'm a former semi-veg (for some reason I decided poultry was okay), went to eating all sorts of meats, and am now finding that for ethical reasons I am trying to curb my meat intake and trying to ensure it comes from sustainable farms. So I understand a bit of what you are going through, although the ethical issues came to me after I became an omnivore. For me it's about mutual respect and acknowledging the gift the the animal has given to you. So if I buy from people who treat it with the greatest respect and kindness, I feel okay about it. But we all have our different perspectives which do change over time. Change is good; it means you learn new things. The flack I have gotten was not from my semi-veggie days but from my mom who, when I explained recently that I avoid supermarkets and buy organics, said "You better not tell people that at your new job in the America, because you'll be looked at as weird." (she lives in New Jersey--but many of you are Americans so surely she's the one with a narrow view...) So I suppose no matter what you do it's always going to be someone! Good luck to you, Dawn Wed Aug 03 07:20:47 -0700 2005 1693183 0 drdawn 2 1693295 I was a vegan for awhile (I even worked as a vegan chef) but had to give it up because I changed jobs and found it incredibly difficult to get enough food to keep myself alive (this was back in the "steak 'n' cocaine" 80s). I know it's a lot easier now, but back then if you went to the average restaurant with a friend, your vegetarian options were usually limited to: baked potato, steamed broccoli, salad. To this day I almost never eat baked potatoes or broccoli, and am extremely particular about the salads I eat. My sister and brother-in-law make a point never to eat any mammals, and I have done that too. I agree with you about having respect for the animal, and I believe in "nose-to-tail" eating--if you're going to use an animal for meat, then you should be prepared to eat any edible part. As for shunning supermarkets, I've been doing that for years...I buy organic produce, and humanely raised meats. Thu Aug 04 12:50:03 -0700 2005 1693209 0 LT from LF 2 1695018 Hey Dr. Dawn I'm a Jersey Girl and am a vegetarian for the same reason as the original poster. Funny that your mom would think that it wouldn't go over well...(unless I interpreted it wrong)...the only questions I ever get are, How can you be married to a chef and not eat meat? ha ha I say, that's why he married me, I am such a challenge to cook for ;) Factory farms are awful...I miss meat sometimes too but cannot bring myself to accept and eat meat that has been raised in such a vile manner It is a shame that many of the farmers turned to the factory method just to stay alive and afloat Fri Sep 16 00:25:18 -0700 2005 1693209 0 NeedAdvice 3 1695020 Have you ever tried only eating meats that are from small farmers who raise beef humanely "sp" ? there are pleanty of small producers who raise animals in a good humane way. organic farmers are the most caring of all i do believe. But do some research, dont just dicount all beef as factory beef. Sure its more expensive but well worth it. Fri Sep 16 01:21:29 -0700 2005 1695018 0 eddie 1 1693220 I think we should all be concerned about how are animals are raised and consumed. Factory farming is disgusting and and so are the products it produces. From another perspective, free range eggs and chicken, oganic milk from a small producer, and most grass fed animals also taste better. I would have more respect for animal rights groups if they spent more time talking about chicken production than fur. I think you might find the article below interesting. Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/01/style/tmagazine/pasture.html?ex=1123214400&en=e7b23cec0baf55ea&ei=5070 Wed Aug 03 11:10:54 -0700 2005 1693183 0 JudiAU 2 1693249 Thanks for linking that article! Really interesting read. I think they also wrote about this farm in a (relatively) recent issue of Gourmet. Wed Aug 03 19:51:52 -0700 2005 1693220 0 DanaB 1 1695047 Why don't you just eat meat that died from natural causes? Fri Sep 16 20:59:37 -0700 2005 1693183 0 Teddy 1 1695048 Why don't you just eat meat that died from natural causes? Fri Sep 16 21:00:23 -0700 2005 1693183 0 Teddy