301704 Wed Mar 15 00:44:34 -0800 2006 71 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1683826 As i was chowing down to a delicious bowl of Ramen at Minca in NYC tonight i ponderedc this question. My friends all love going out to expensive steak dinners and i usually end up feeling like i do not get the bang for the buck. While i do adore perfectly seared cow flesh as much as the next guy, steaks seem really expensive and not worth the cost taste ratio. While digging into this exquisite bowl of ramen that cost $10 with tax and tip i really did not feel that my money is well spent eating steak. The steakhouse cartel charges ridiculous prices for a simple piece of cooked meat. The depth in flavour of a well constructed broth in a great noodle soup offers me so much more pleasure than a seared piece of meat. As the saying goes, anybody can make a good steak taste great, it takes a real chef to transform a stomach or such into good eats. I think i am done with steakhouses for awhile, if i want to blow alot of money i will do it at a high end sushi place. I do suppose it is each his own as some do not enjoy sushi while the real good stuff gives me such a food orgasm that i cannot take a first date out to it cause they think i'm a freak. I feel like the whole steakhouse experience is one o those things that i will just never get much like fancy cars or jewelery. More flash than substance. Wed Mar 15 00:44:34 -0800 2006 0 MV 1 1683835 It sounds like they are not worth it to you. That doesn't mean the experience is not worthwhile to others. Wed Mar 15 08:49:41 -0800 2006 1683826 0 Two Forks 1 1683836 A visit to a steakhouse is what it is, a carnivore experience. Either it pushes your buttons or it doesn't. Personally am a devout carnivore, but would much rather prepare it myself in the comfort of my home. Steakhouses just aren't for me. I'm with you on that one. I think they are way overpriced. I disagree that anyone "can make a good steak taste great." I have had great steak ruined at fine steakhouses and even more so by well meaning friends who are clueless when it comes to steak. When I sit down at home to my charred and bloody feast I can moan in pleasure without comments from bystanders. I try to have an excellent steak several times a month. I only buy them when I find an absolutely beautiful, perfectly marbled rib eye or rib steak. I may spend five minutes or more picking out the perfect one. If I don't find one that meets my standards I sadly walk away. When I do find one I scurry home as fast as I can. I grill it over hardwood charcoal that is piled to within 1 inch of the grill surface. I blow on the coals fiercely until they are glowing and my hair is singed, and then I sear the steak for 3 minutes per side. I let the steak sit for several minutes before planting myself in front of it and gorging, eyes closed and my whole being focused on the flavor. I have been known to gruffly ask any noisy family members to leave the room immediately so that they don't interfere with my enjoyment. I use no gloppy sauces, maybe a bit of fresh pepper and sea salt, or a wee splash of soy and toasted sesame oil to crank up the umami factor. Mmmmm. Wed Mar 15 08:51:10 -0800 2006 1683826 0 JMF 2 1683840 Interestingly enough a place like Lugers will sell you their steaks for the same price you would paid to sit and eat it. That's not to say you can't get superior quality for a lot less. Though dry-aged meat is always expensive. I can only take and do steakhouses once a year. And for all the aggrevation of getting the usual characters together and then making a reservation...well, might as well just have buy the meat and grill it yourself. You got that right. Just one thing. Save your hair and get a chimney starter! Wed Mar 15 09:43:23 -0800 2006 1683836 0 mod'ern 3 1683846 I use a chimney starter... but to get a real great crust on a steak you can't beat blowing the coals as it cooks. Wed Mar 15 10:41:15 -0800 2006 1683840 0 JMF 2 1683842 YOur post reminds me how much I love a good charbroiled steak. Still a bit chilly hear in the Northeast, but as soon as the weather warms a bit, I will be grilling some steaks. We don't eat a lot of steak, but when we do, I make sure we get great steaks- there is a great- thoug pricey- butcher shop near my office I am a bit pedestrian in my side dishes. Grilled steak, no sauces, potato salad, some kind of garden/green/tomato salad and a nice loaf of bread. Heaven. Wed Mar 15 09:49:58 -0800 2006 1683836 0 macca 3 1683845 I live in NY and I grill steaks all winter long. They're even better after spending a few minutes outside half frozen and half broiled. Wed Mar 15 10:39:59 -0800 2006 1683842 0 JMF 4 1683848 I know- I am a wimp-don't have any charcoal for the big grill, but I do have a small Coleman gas camping grill. Maybe I will fire it up this weekend and see what happens! Wed Mar 15 10:45:00 -0800 2006 1683845 0 macca 5 1683852 Those Camping grills don't get anywhere near hot enough to cook a steak. They can barely cook chicken breasts. I have had several, including a Weber gas camping grill which just barely does the job for everything but steaks. This summer I am getting a cast iron camping grill/hibachi. Just go out to your hardware store and get some hardwood charcoal. None of those nasty briquets, they don't get hot enough and have chemicals in them. And use a chimney starter. I use a Weber kettle and put bricks on one side of the coal grate so I don't have to use much charcoal. Also with hardwood you can put the top on with the vents closed and the coals will go out and can be used again. Wed Mar 15 12:08:28 -0800 2006 1683848 0 JMF 6 1683853 Thanks for the info. I was not sure if the Coleman would be hot enough for steaks- I have never used it ( not a camper- I need ac and hot/cold water), but the kids take it camping with them. Will definitely try your method. Looking forward a long summer of grilled vegatables and meats! Wed Mar 15 12:21:27 -0800 2006 1683852 0 macca 7 1683854 My pa-in-law has a ribbed cast-iron grill pan and a very fierce gas range, and when he cooks us some steaks he sets the pan on there until it's practically glowing and then drops the meat in. Luckily, he also has a very powerful vent fan... A regular frying pan can make the steak stew in its own juices, but also gives it a crust of said juices that a charcoal grill can't duplicate. The grill pan, to my taste, encompasses the best of both methods. I don't know what steak houses do. I enjoy them, once in a great while, simply for the feel of An Occasion - martini, steak, wine, salad, the ritual...and every so often a really worthy piece of meat. Wed Mar 15 12:35:33 -0800 2006 1683853 0 Will Owen 8 1683856 I have a grill pan and a gas range- but usually don't cook steak in the kitchen, as I always seem to set off the smoke detectors. Have been to a few of the big steakhouses ( Ruth Chris's, s/w) Great meal, so sure- but I hate to spend that much money on one meal. And I will admit, I have enjoyed the meals there most when the meal was on an expense account!! Wed Mar 15 12:43:53 -0800 2006 1683854 0 macca 9 1683925 The trick is to remove the batteries from your smoke detectors...unles, like us, you have several of them hardwired into your home security system. I'm just about ready to tell home security to pull'em out, I'll take my chances... Thu Mar 16 00:53:25 -0800 2006 1683856 0 Will Owen 6 1683858 Beg to differ on the camping grills. It's not the prefered method, but it does work. Wed Mar 15 12:56:57 -0800 2006 1683852 0 ODB 7 1683870 What make of camping gas grill do you use that gets hot enough to char a steak? I would love to know because I have tried most of them over the years. The one that I have found to be best is the Weber Q but it works best when you attach a 20lb propane tank. Wed Mar 15 13:51:24 -0800 2006 1683858 0 JMF 8 1683872 Can't remember the brand name. It was back when I lived in a flat and had no room for a grill. It looked like this, and made some tasty steaks. Much better than using a skillet. Image: http://www.pebbleshop.com/store/media/pg17.jpg Wed Mar 15 14:19:07 -0800 2006 1683870 0 ODB 9 1683887 I had one like that and found that it was hard even to make a decent burger on it. The thing just wouldn't get hot enough. A good steak needs a charred exterior and I don't see how that mini grill could do that. Wed Mar 15 15:52:46 -0800 2006 1683872 0 Bob Martinez 2 1683849 I'm with ya on this. I don't care if it's 10 below out, if I find a good steak I'm firing up the coals. There is a local grocery store that carries USDA Prime ribeyes during the summer. Only $11.00 lb. Just looking at them will bring tears to your eyes. They told me they don't try to get them during the winter. It makes for a very long winter. Wed Mar 15 11:02:58 -0800 2006 1683836 0 Bobfrmia 1 1683838 And your friends are looking back at you in wonder at why you think that "bowl of Campbell's broth" is the next coming... I agree with you that steakhouses are expensive. It sounds like you know your price-boundary and the high-end steakhouse are no longer within it. It also sounds like you're tastes might be changing and foods you once couldn't enjoy often enough have moved on over to the "once-or-less-a-year" menu. Enjoy that ramen find! It sounds like a true 3-diamond find. Wed Mar 15 09:41:30 -0800 2006 1683826 0 The Ranger 1 1683841 Yes, very much worth it to me. I don't want to have to purchase USDA Prime beef. I don't have the same kind of infrared oven that heats up to 1500 degrees that can sear my "cow flesh" the way I like. I don't have much experience cooking the steak the way I like it cooked. One minute overdone and I've ruined a $25 peice of "cow flesh". I want the perfect bottle of wine without having to go to different wine stores to find. So yes. I'll take my perfectly seared "cow flesh" any day of the week in a steakhouse. Wed Mar 15 09:47:15 -0800 2006 1683826 0 BlueHerons 2 1683867 It seems i have annoyed you by using the term cow flesh. Wed Mar 15 13:41:41 -0800 2006 1683841 0 MV 3 1683879 The cows are composing a letter to The Times, as we post. Wed Mar 15 15:23:54 -0800 2006 1683867 0 Shep 3 1683934 Not really. My former Vegan assistant would refer to any meat product derogatorily "flesh". As in, "here is your flesh sandwich on rye". "Oh that is a flesh restaurant" etc. So you can see where I am coming from. Thu Mar 16 10:03:45 -0800 2006 1683867 0 BlueHerons 2 1683901 I'm in absolute agreement with all of your points. "Cow flesh"--Ha ha! When I was in college, I worked part-time in an office above a Ruth's Chris. My boss was a vegan who would scoff at the steakhouse, because they served "pieces of cow." After I graduated, got a real job, and was able to afford to dine there, I have to say I enjoyed my "pieces of cow" very much! Wed Mar 15 18:12:25 -0800 2006 1683841 0 gina 3 1683915 I am not a vegan i just used cow flesh as a sort of illiteration. I personally love dining on all sorts of meat, i just dont have any problems with what it actually is. I hate when non italian restaurants call squid calimari b/c people get freaked out by knowing what they are eating. Wed Mar 15 23:02:16 -0800 2006 1683901 0 MV 1 1683843 As a rule, no. It's all flash. I like to dine out on things I can't make at home. Becuase at home I can make some WONDERFUL steaks. And I can just about buy a case of wine for what they charge for one bottle. Wed Mar 15 10:11:32 -0800 2006 1683826 0 ODB 2 1683865 Thats pretty much exactly my point. Wed Mar 15 13:38:59 -0800 2006 1683843 0 MV 1 1683859 I love a good bowl of ramen. It make a good meal. A steak to me, especially at a great steak house is an experience. As far as worth the price. I would rather spend $35 on a prime steak then $16 on chicken at a restaurant. To me that is insane. Wed Mar 15 13:08:10 -0800 2006 1683826 0 cdmedici 2 1684019 I'm with you on the chicken, no matter how well prepared it's still chicken, pennies per pound... To me, paying $16-$20 for an entree of some mediocre meat with side of overcooked veggies and instant mash potatos at some middle of the road sit-down restaurants, while you can get mouth-watering hand-made well-seasoned potstickers for a dollar or two is beyond comprehension... Steakhouses - I love eating there but think they're for suits and expense accounts. Ramens - I love good ramen, but I do feel like $10 and up is a bit steep for noodles and two pieces of meat, I feel they just charge high by virtue of being Japanese. Different, but Chinese ramen with tons of meat and hand-pulled noodles I can get for $4. Fri Mar 17 15:59:56 -0800 2006 1683859 0 welle 1 1683869 yes. totally worth it. i love me a nice piece of meat. my mouth waters just thinking about it. Wed Mar 15 13:50:51 -0800 2006 1683826 0 rolypoly 1 1683874 To me it is just as rediculous to pay $10 for ramen that you can get at the grcery 4/$1 Wed Mar 15 14:30:28 -0800 2006 1683826 0 beteez 2 1683890 It's not the same type of Ramen, not even in the same ball park. If you haven't had fresh, real ramen, only that freeze dried crap, then you don't have a clue to how amazing real ramen with hand made noodles is like. Wed Mar 15 16:15:15 -0800 2006 1683874 0 JMF 2 1683900 I used to think the same thing until I had a bowl of fresh shio ramen. It is like comparing a dry aged bone-in ribeye with a McDonalds meat patty. Wed Mar 15 18:11:58 -0800 2006 1683874 0 cdmedici 3 1683911 Which is my point. $10 is 40x the price of normal ramen. If you want to overspend on something you like then do it. I will stick to a dry aged bone in ribeye. & He can over pay for noodles & pig stomachs. Wed Mar 15 20:31:04 -0800 2006 1683900 0 beteez 4 1683916 The $10 ramen is normal ramen. And the ammount of skill it takes to one bowl of said ramen is leaps and bounds above the skill it takes to sear a piece of meat Wed Mar 15 23:04:09 -0800 2006 1683911 0 MV 5 1683937 "The $10 ramen is normal ramen. And the ammount of skill it takes to one bowl of said ramen is leaps and bounds above the skill it takes to sear a piece of meat" OK, I finally get it. This thread is just jumping the gun on April Fool's Day. Pretty funny stuff. Thu Mar 16 10:41:15 -0800 2006 1683916 0 Bob Martinez 6 1683943 It's not funny, but sad, when people can't differentiate between a lousy, instant fast food product and the real, original food item it was copied from. Real ramen, and other Asian style noodle and soup dishes such as Pho, require days of intense labor to create the broth and hours to hand make the noodles. The depth of flavor is intense, full bodied, and light and refreshing at the same time. It takes great skill, much more than it dos to sear a steak. Normal ramen is handmade noodles with meat in a broth that has cooked for several days. What we nowadays consider ramen is really a relatively modern invention created first in 1958 of instant commercial, low quality, freeze dried ramen style noodles made from cheap ingredients and with an instant broth full of chemicals and salt. Instant ramen is in no way more than a distant bastard relation to real ramen. It's like comparing a frozen steakum sandwich thingy made from ground pressed meat with textured vegetable protein and artificial beef flavoring to a prime dry aged rib-eye steak. Thu Mar 16 12:25:36 -0800 2006 1683937 0 JMF 7 1683948 You like ramen - swell. Really, I'm glad you do, but the premise of the original post is that those of us who prefer a high end steakhouse are somehow misguided and delusional. That's what has gotten under some people's skins. If the original poster had started a thread entitled "Ramen - Underrated and Great!" he could have made his (or her) point without the implied and unnecessary value judgement. The first reply to this thread, by Two Forks, said it all perfectly. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/301704#1683835 Thu Mar 16 12:43:19 -0800 2006 1683943 0 Bob Martinez 8 1683955 No i didnt say people were misguided and im sorry if you inferred that. I was simply questioning how much they can charge for a steak while something like Ramen(more of an example than the point) which takes infinitely more skill to produce can be had for so much less. I also meant it to compare the enjoyment level that one gets from the steak compared to the masterfully constructed noodles and soup. I also was trying to make a point that i feel that steakhouses overcharge simply b/c they can much like the diamond industry. Are either of those two products worth as much as their cartels charge? Thu Mar 16 14:22:54 -0800 2006 1683948 0 MV 9 1683962 The profit margin on a bowl of ramen at $10 is much greater then the profit margin for a prime steak. Thu Mar 16 15:32:35 -0800 2006 1683955 0 cdmedici 10 1683984 That's not true. Why do you think that the steak houses are growing at the rate they are? Now that we're over the health craze, seared beef is about as simple (and sound) a business plan as you can create for a restaurant. What do you think has more $$$ of labor per unit. An incredible bowl of ramen that took days to make and years to master, or throwing a piece of meat on the salamander? Just what do you think the wholesale price of beef is? Even at Luger's with their in-house dry-aging (and subsequent loss), I doubt that their cost of beef is even 10% of the retail charge. Fri Mar 17 00:38:50 -0800 2006 1683962 0 applehome 11 1683995 if you're talking solely on cost of ingredients. do you know how much it cost to make one bowl of ramen?? Fri Mar 17 09:21:18 -0800 2006 1683984 0 rolypoly 12 1684001 You can't figure out fair pricing based just on cost of ingredients. It just doesn't work that way. You have to consider man hours and training to develop a fair cost analysis. Fri Mar 17 10:52:53 -0800 2006 1683995 0 JMF 11 1683998 Sounds like you are guessing at those numbers. Let's just say that I know the owner of one of the most famous steakhouses in California. We have talked numbers before. If you only ordered and steak and nothing else they are barely making a profit. Please don't forget the extreme expense of running a fancy steakhouse. 3-5 million or more to build the restaurant, high rent, huge staff. A typical ramen house fixed expenses are a fraction of that. The typical steakhouse makes all of there money on the huge mark-up of the side dishes and booze. $7 bucks for a baked potato. $15 for a martini. Of course a Mastro's or Morton's are making more money than a mom and pop ramen house. Way more. But they are making the money on everything but the meat. Fri Mar 17 09:45:56 -0800 2006 1683984 0 cdmedici 11 1684104 I have to jump in on this one, and although this topic is taking a turn from the original question, I know for a fact that the food cost of steak is much higher than 10%. In a normal restaurant, the food cost of most items will be around 20%, while that of steak will be upward of 50% or more. As pointed out below, the profit margin on steakhouses is on the liquor, wine, and side dishes (big $$). -Kevin Link: http://www.nolafoodie.com Sun Mar 19 16:28:39 -0800 2006 1683984 0 UptownKevin 8 1683986 Yeah - but I think that the original point, comparing Ramen v. Steak, is worth making (and it has been made, but let me go on and on...). One is a very chowhoundish food that requires years to master, but can be found relatively cheaply at some of the most unique of places to eat. The other is largely a matter of taking up lots and lots of our land to raise the right cattle in the right way in massive quantities (thereby polluting our rivers and streams) so that we have access to ever greater and more marbled pieces of cow flesh, so that a high-school dropout can sear it for you on an 1800 degree salamander, in corporately held chain restaurants, complete with fake brass-rails and wooden panels. The Great American lifestyle encourages the eating of the second, rather than the first. Chowhounds, perhaps, ought to encourage each other to try to make more finds, like the first. Chowhounds, perhaps, ought to encourage each other to not fall so easily for mass-marketed, big bucks food goods. Yes, good food is good food, and deliciousness is grand, but sometimes one needs to think in terms of the craft - and baby, that ain't steakhouses. Fri Mar 17 01:17:15 -0800 2006 1683948 0 applehome 2 1683922 That is like comparing cup of soup to home-made chicken soup. The link below is from the San Francisco board where Melanie Wong has been reporting about ramen for the past few years. She has some stunning pictures too. At this point, I can look at one of her pictures first and then guess if it is good ramen or bad ramen. If you want to know about ramen, read some of her posts. Does this picture look like something you can buy for twenty-five cents? Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/38819#183442 Image: http://home.earthlink.net/~melanista/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/ramenclubkalbi.jpg Wed Mar 15 23:50:57 -0800 2006 1683874 0 rworange 1 1683877 I guess it's what one is trying to find. We love going to a really good steakhouse once or twice a year. But, it's the overall experience, the large, very cold, very dry martini to start, the giant salad, a perfectly cooked steak, the creamed spinach, perhaps the potatoes and, of course, that big gooey chocolate brownie ala mode with bunches of chocolate sauce for dessert. Living in SF, there are hundreds and hundreds of things other than steak to have. But, like I said, once, maybe twice a year, it's worth it. Wed Mar 15 14:50:42 -0800 2006 1683826 0 Monty 2 1683880 It's been said on this site that the steak is secondary in judging a steakhouse, and that it's really the side dishes that show the quality. Wed Mar 15 15:30:41 -0800 2006 1683877 0 Shep 1 1683906 The bigger questions is perhaps is anything worth it, if we're to talk about the pure monetary value of eating out vs. cooking in. Growing up in a household where my mother made fresh noodles and noodle soups, pork buns and vegetable buns, etc., etc. from scratch, she would be appalled--as I sometimes am--to know that I spend $10 or more on a bowl of ramen noodles. But I enjoy eating out: not only for the food, but the ambience, catching up with friends, the being served and taken care of part, being part of the dining scene, checking out other people and what they're having, and so on--all the intangibles. Because yes, if you were to add those factors in, and you like to treat yourself occasionally as I do--then steakhouses and just about any food establishments are worth it, even when you can prepare the food yourself. Wed Mar 15 19:26:31 -0800 2006 1683826 0 gloriousfood 2 1683917 I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, i know why people go out to eat. I just feel like for what you are charged at a steakhouse you can go somewhere else with a a nice atmosphere and eat alot better. I feel like the steakhouse industry overcharges for what they are serving. this is just my opinion obviously but i feel that when i go out and spend alot of money i expect more than that. I do like to treat myself, i guess steakhouses arent it for me. My problem with steakhouses is i really think they are more for the manly cool factor than the actual food. Wed Mar 15 23:11:45 -0800 2006 1683906 0 MV 3 1683940 if i had a choice between 4 bowls of ramen or 1 steak. i have to go for the steak. i like steak. you like ramen. i go to the steakhouses for good steak not the "manly cool factor". if we're talking about skill. i'm pretty confident I'd have much more success at making the perfect bowl of ramen than the perfect steak. Thu Mar 16 11:14:26 -0800 2006 1683917 0 rolypoly 4 1683947 You can't really compare which is better since it is a matter of taste and occasion. I'm a severe carnivore and steak lover. I disagree about making ramen vs. steak. Do you have the skill to create and simmer a broth for several days or even as the best places do, for literally generations? To make noodles completly by hand? Make the dough, pull the noodles by hand? I don't think so based on your comments. I can do both and I know which is easier. I can sear a mean steak in a few minutes perfectly every time. Ramen and soba is an entirely different level of skill, knowledge and aility. Searing a steak from scratch takes a little preparation, practice, and timing. Mostly you have to start with a good steak. Making ramen from scratch takes training, study, and skill. It's such a shame that more folks haven't tasted real ramen. In Osaka Japan a few years ago I ate in a several hundred year old noodle restaurant that specialized in soba and ramen. The broth had been slow coooking every day, all day, for at least five generations. The noodles were made from small batch, hand grown, specialty buckwheat that was ground fresh by hand every day and then hand pulled into noodles. Hand pulling is a 45 minute process that is very labor intensive. The meal was one of the ten best I have had in my life, and I've been to great restaurants, and trained at culinary schools and observed chefs on five continents. Thu Mar 16 12:41:28 -0800 2006 1683940 0 JMF 5 1683950 personally, it's easier for me to make ramen than steak. different skills involved. i can't make a perfect steak for the life of me. ramen noodles and broth, i can do. go figure. Thu Mar 16 12:55:26 -0800 2006 1683947 0 rolypoly 6 1683985 Indeed, you must be a great master who has apprenticed at the best noodle houses in Tokyo for years to make such high quality ramen so easily. Do the expert Japanese businessmen that come to your place tell you how wonderful your ramen is? Fact is, great steak is a snap. I can and will make the pickiest steakeaters happy. The quality of the meat is 95% of the issue, and that's just a matter of $$$. You buy the beef, I'll teach you to cook it better than the steakhouses in a week. I learned to make great steaks on the webber with real wood charcoal in about 5-8 tries - maybe 16 man-hours of "training". Now, 50 or more tries later, I'm consistent and can cook a piece of meat as well as any steak house line chef. I can't imagine how long it would take me to master the broth alone - never mind even thinking about hand making noodles. I'm curious about your ramen - how many times do you fold your noodles? What kind of soda do you use and when do you fold it in? What mix of bones do you use? How many hours do you simmer your bones? Fri Mar 17 00:52:27 -0800 2006 1683950 0 applehome 7 1683999 great. i guess i'll never make great steak b/c i can't get a weber where i live anyway. fact is, i can make a lot of other things you might find difficult. and i have trouble making some things most people find easy. go figure. maybe b/c it's considered "foreign". most of the asian things i can make most people wouldn't bother making. maybe b/c people think it's too hard and time consuming. all you need to do is learn how to make it and practice. like what you did with steak. i started learning by helping my grandmother out in the kitchen. Fri Mar 17 09:46:44 -0800 2006 1683985 0 rolypoly 7 1684000 Who goes to steakhouses for the steak? I go for the creamed spinach. Fri Mar 17 10:29:39 -0800 2006 1683985 0 bibi rose 8 1684027 That is the best reason I've heard on this thread yet. Honestly - I have done that - I don't know if I've actually gone to a steakhouse for the creamed spinach, but I know that one time when the party I was with wanted to go, I was going to argue, until I thought about the creamed spinach and decided that would make it worth my while! Actually - I found out how easy this was as well... These days, I make it at home. Boil water, blanch spinach, drain well. Start a white sauce (bechamel) with a roux (flour and butter) and add chicken stock or water. You can fry up some mushrooms or pre-cooked onions (don't start raw at this point) and also some garlic - really, whatever else you want to go into this - all into the roux as it cooks, then add the liquid to simmer and thicken. Chop up the spinach, put it in the pan, toss, then finish with some heavy cream, s&p. It takes 10 minutes, tops. Fri Mar 17 18:24:20 -0800 2006 1684000 0 applehome 7 1684009 I'm trying to reconcile this - "Fact is, great steak is a snap. I can and will make the pickiest steakeaters happy. The quality of the meat is 95% of the issue, and that's just a matter of $$$. You buy the beef, I'll teach you to cook it better than the steakhouses in a week. I learned to make great steaks on the webber with real wood charcoal in about 5-8 tries - maybe 16 man-hours of "training". Now, 50 or more tries later, I'm consistent and can cook a piece of meat as well as any steak house line chef." with your statement that you wrote elsewhere on the thread - "(steak) is largely a matter of taking up lots and lots of our land to raise the right cattle in the right way in massive quantities (thereby polluting our rivers and streams) so that we have access to ever greater and more marbled pieces of cow flesh..." It seems that you happily make great steaks in your backyard but have moral qualms about steakhouses. Fri Mar 17 12:09:47 -0800 2006 1683985 0 Bob Martinez 8 1684026 I see nothing to resolve - no dichotomy... Our modern American lives are full of guilt (or should be) for using up so much of the world's resources. We have to pick our sins carefully to minimize impact even as we continue our lifestyles of excess - there's no black and white - just where we draw our own lines. I see chowhounding as helping because it teaches us to respect individual added value, rather than just continue with the wide world of corporate greed and the process of making products cheaper and more accessible (Walmartizing). The best steaks ought to be extremely hard to get, very, very expensive, and cooked in very few places. As should be the best salmon, the best caviar, etcetc... Instead, we are making more and more (USDA Prime, Wagyu) available cheaper and steak houses are popping up all over the place, with no regard to the ecological consequences. So (by my reckoning) even if I can't stay away from the steaks, my refusal to go to the steak houses for value and quality reasons also matches my psuedo-ethical purposes, in that I'm at least taking some action to curtail the continuing American demolition of the Spaceship Earth through excessive consumption by not supporting the corporate chains... ahem... Truth is that if I were truly not going to steak houses for ethical reasons, I would refuse to go even for business or other reasons, and like I said before, I don't do that. However - there was one time, when I talked a sales/support guy we were doing a lot of business with, into coming to my house instead of going to the steakhouse. He had come over from the UK and desperately wanted a great piece of meat (this was just after the initial mad-cow scare and there was no beef to be had in the UK). He came over, sampled my trove of single malts and brandies, shared a great bottle of wine, watched while I burnt his steak (or so he thought), but then offered that it was the greatest piece of meat he had ever eaten - and he had been around the world many times. My only concern was that he asked for mustard... those brits are weeeeird people... Hey - draw the line where you want, I certainly have no room to judge anyone. But isn't it cool that Chowhounding actually ends up supporting a more sound approach to balancing our food supply and consumption? It doesn't start there - it just starts by looking for deliciousness. But the inevitable tie-in to artisanal cooking surely ought to "steer" us away from, or reduce the impact (in our lives) of, by-the-numbers corporate places, like steakhouses. Fri Mar 17 18:02:05 -0800 2006 1684009 0 applehome 1 1683918 There is a huge difference between the steak you get at a truly good steakhouse (not to mention the cooking apparatus) and the supermarket or even a local butcher, much the same as if you tried to make sushi out of supermarket tuna vs. a sushi restaurant. When you go a great steakhouse that dry-ages their steak comparing that to a home cooked choice steak is like comparing Go Sushi to Sushi Yasuda. Sure they both serve sushi but they aren't comparable. Not to mention, if you go to a butcher that sells dry-aged steak you wouldn't be saving that much money compared to what it would cost in the restaurant. I adore steaks and would rather spend my money on a great steak than great sushi. Sure its a piece of beef, with little more than salt and pepper, but when done to perfection I think its better than a $20 piece of o-toro. Something as simple as steak, salt, pepper and 1800 degree heat really proves the point that the sum is greater than the parts. Many people do not get it and thats fine, to each their own. My mom still thinks her overcooked Costco steak tastes the same as a steak at Peter Luger's. Personally, I can tell the difference between a dry-aged steak and a wet aged steak. Since you love sushi, I'm not quite sure how you can critize the prices steakhouses charge. For the top sushi, you are paying ridiculous prices for a piece of raw fish and some rice. How is that price ratio any different than a steakhouse? Rice is a subsistance food and at least they have to cook the steak. But you love sushi, so you think its worth it. Thats how I feel about a good steakhouse (Morton's excluded. That place is a ripoff). Lastly, you say it takes a good chef to make stomach good eats... I respond by saying it takes a good chef/butcher to transform a huge side of meat to beautifully dry-aged porterhouse or ribeye. Wed Mar 15 23:22:56 -0800 2006 1683826 0 Evan 2 1683926 There are several great sources for USDA Prime beef - even truly dry-aged (Lobel, for one, Luger's for another). There are sources for wagyu, which is even better (more marbled) than USDA Prime. So you can get steak house or better quality meat at home, cheaper. The wine is most certainly cheaper, as is my rotating stock of aperitif's I keep on hand to sample from. So let's see... what are we paying for? 1800 degrees on an electric or gas fired salamander or char-broiler... woo whoopie ding dong... Real wood charcoal in my Webber kettle will get plenty hot - 500+. I get a deep crust on that baby - and the inside is red and juicy. I think that the flavor and the texture of what I create is better and much more consistent than most steakhouses, certainly the chains, if not quite Peter Luger dry aged. But in any case, it's close. To say that I could approximate a special o-toro set or some incredibly thin sliced awabi with special tare, in my kitchen - now that would be the joke. And therein lies the rip-off. Do you honestly think that some great chef is sitting at that Smith and Wollensky's or Ruth Chris's specially choosing, trimming, and cooking your steak? If one feels that some 1st year line cook (with singed hair) throwing a piece of (albeit excellent quality) beef onto a super-hot gas or electric broiler is worth paying big money for... fine so be it. But lets not put it into the same category as food that's been carefully and timestakingly prepared by an expert. I guess I feel that paying for that expertise, whether for a unique and wonderful bowl of ramen, an incredible omakase experience, or just a well crafted dish of almost any sort, is why I go out to eat, when I am going for the food. If I'm going for the friendship, or work, or whatever else, then there are other priorities. But when the priority is extra-ordinary food, a steakhouse is never an option. Eating a great steak is a transcendant experience - every bit as wonderful as great sushi. The taste, the mouthfeel, the smells - it's just an incredibly mouth watering, sensuous experience. You want to slow it down and sense every second in as many ways as you can. You don't want it to stop. Ever... A steak at a steakhouse is never that kind of a transcendent experience - Luger's gets closest, none of the chains (NONE) get close - they screw it up more often than not. The truth is that anything I can replicate at home, with my meager qualifications, just doesn't count as an evening of well spent time and money in search of extra-ordinarily great food. BTW, if it's really so important to get that 1800 degrees, I suggest you watch the Alton Brown episode on steak. He takes his Weber kettle, cuts a large hole off to one side near the bottom, attaches a long tube, at the end of which he places a hairblower - and plugs it in. He does end up going through a lot more charcoal, but I believe he gets a lot closer to 1800 degrees! But honestly, do you really think that's necessary, or might it just possibly be a piece of marketing from a group of folks that don't want you to know how easily you can do the same thing at home? Boy, what if everybody knew? Wouldn't that ruin their day! Thu Mar 16 01:12:36 -0800 2006 1683918 0 applehome 3 1683936 You said it a lot more eloquently than i did. Thu Mar 16 10:26:19 -0800 2006 1683926 0 MV 3 1683949 Well said... Now I am off to get a nicely marbeled, dry aged rib-eye to sear on my Weber for dinner. This thread has been driving me crazy for good beef the past few days and I just had an amazing steak a few days ago. I do hate paying $20-30 for a steak... but would rather pay for excellent meat and cook it better myself, than at any restaurant. Sometime soon I will have to go to Luger's butcher shop and buy some steaks to bring home. I know I can cook them better than they did the last two times I went and ate there. Thu Mar 16 12:48:38 -0800 2006 1683926 0 JMF 3 1684005 I'm not trying to say you can't find good Prime dry-aged steak or Waygu beef at a good butcher shop. But it is not that much cheaper than a Peter Luger's type place. And you run a risk of not being able to cook it to perfection. I personally can cook great steak and have done so millions of times. I've bought the expensive dry aged steaks and have perfected my cooking methodology but you still run the risk of overcooking it and ruining a $30 steak. They cook so quickly over a lava-hot fire that a mere minute or misjudge of the heat of the coals can take it from my preferred rare to past medium rare. I've been to pretty much every steakhouse in NYC, most more than once, and have visited most of the national chains multiple times when I've traveled for work and do agree that most of them aren't worth a repeated visit. But when you find the right one, like Peter Lugers I do think its a transcendent experience. Fri Mar 17 11:38:14 -0800 2006 1683926 0 Evan 1 1683928 I would happily eat the crappiest ramen for a week in exchange for a Luger's steak-o-my-dreams. We have nothing comparable in Los Angeles (and no, I'm not looking to start a fight). Thu Mar 16 02:48:07 -0800 2006 1683826 0 Christine 1 1684143 Just a poll how many had steak & how many had ramen last weekend? Mon Mar 20 11:32:23 -0800 2006 1683826 0 beteez 2 1684156 I had steak. Mon Mar 20 13:09:17 -0800 2006 1684143 0 Bob Martinez 2 1684181 Ramen - 12 Steak - 1 (but dang was it a Winnah!) Mon Mar 20 20:49:41 -0800 2006 1684143 0 The Ranger 2 1684190 does cheesesteak count? Tue Mar 21 01:32:09 -0800 2006 1684143 0 semmel 3 1684196 Only if the beef is dry aged for 21 days and served with vintage 12 year old Whiz. Tue Mar 21 08:39:26 -0800 2006 1684190 0 Striver 1 1684843 Like everything else, it is "worth it" if it is something you enjoy and you have the money to foot the bill. One can never purchase, even at the finest butcher, the quality of steak served at PETER LUGER'S in Williamsburg Brooklyn, considered the best steak in the world. The meat is carefully selected on the spot, aged to perfection in their aging rooms, and cooked to perfection. The adage "anyone can cook a steak" is totally false. I love the hot dogs at PAPAYA KING, but you can't compare a standup hot dog with s superior steak dinner in a fine restaurant. I also love French designer clothes, imported cars, perfune and jewelry... but hey! chaqu'un à son gôut . Fri Mar 31 00:06:24 -0800 2006 1683826 0 Fleur