301584 Fri Feb 24 14:23:55 -0800 2006 44 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1682581 A lot of people diss TJ's (as is their right) for somehow not being all it's cracked up to be (or all that it used to be). But since one opened a mile from my house a couple of years ago, it's been my primary "supermarket" (I do most of my food shopping at the small specialty markets in the market hall near my house). I've started to pride myself on *not* going to "regular" supermarkets, but worried that perhaps I was being too snobby: after all, large chain supermarkets are where the vast majority of Americans shop. But last week I went to Safeway out of necessity (a sudden need for milk that got me to the shopping center literally two minutes after TJ's closed -- in retrospect I should have begged my way in!). So instead of TJ's I went to the fancy-dancy brand-new Safeway right next door. As I perused the milk offerings, I was reminded yet again why I don't shop there: as usual, I found that this huge supermarket, with thousands of items, had virtually nothing I wanted to buy. Now granted, it was Sunday night of a long weekend, but there was no organic milk, and no indication that any was ever stocked. In fact, they basically only had one brand of milk -- their house brand. To add insult to injury, the smallest container of whole milk they had left was a half-gallon, so I was stuck with twice as much inferior milk as I needed. Meanwhile, my friend (who set this whole chain of events in motion by demanding hot chocolate), wanted a "goodie" to go with it. The bakery department may have fancy lighting and displays, but the actual offerings were depressingly mediocre -- certainly none of them looked worth the calories. TJ's isn't perfect, and it may not have everything I want or need, but it does have dozens of items I do want and need, which is more than I can say for Safeway! Fri Feb 24 14:23:55 -0800 2006 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1682587 I like TJ's for some things, but bakery? Not at the stores here in the Boston area. At least most of our markets have in-house bakeries, something no TJ has As for organic milk, not my thing, but ALL the supermarkets out my way have an endless selection of various organic, soy, and lactose-free milks, in addition to a wide range of regular milk products. I've never been to a Safeway though, so I can't comment on that. Fri Feb 24 14:37:40 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Two Forks 1 1682588 I'm a huge TJ's dairy dept. fan. It's the main reason I reguarly shop there. The organic milk, heavy non-UP cream, Devon cream butter and Greek yogurt are just better, more flavorful -- and less expensive -- than what's available even in my local upscale stores (Gelsons, Bristol Farms). When I've been forced to buy other brands of milk and cream, I've had to throw them out, as they're so tasteless. One of these days I'll have to try some unpasteurized milk, though; I just haven't had the nerve yet, although I know I'll be fine. Fri Feb 24 14:38:06 -0800 2006 1682581 0 emily 1 1682589 One thing I have observed a lot on Chowhound is the need not just to share, but to project. Okay, you like TJ's more than Safeway (we have neither here, so no opinion from me)that's great. Not all places..whether it's a market, a restaurant, or a gas station is going to be all things to all people and just because we (general) aren't their target customers (Safeway obviously isn't targeting the organic milk consumer)doesn't mean they are "less" or in any way less credible, etc. It just means it doesn't serve our particular need. And because the generalization that small markets are "better" than the big supermarket often by hounds doesn't make it so. It also doesn't mean if a person prefers Safeway to TJ's that they don't "get" it. It's another take on the Hound misconception that one can't be a Hound and like chain restaurants or aren't gourmet cooks. Fri Feb 24 14:49:24 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Janet from Richmond 2 1682592 I agree with you that something being a chain doesn't necessarily mean it's bad (after all, TJ's is a chain); I also agree that something that is small or independently owned is not necessarily better (except for the socioeconomic value of supporting small, locally owned/independent businesses). My point was that when I do overcome my prejudice and shop at a big supermarket, I'm reminded once again why I don't. In other words, that in this particular case, I find that my prejudice or snobbery is being reinforced by my actual experience. In this particular case, I was struck by the fact that this Safeway, which is trying by its look and feel to emulate some of the more upscale "gourmet" grocery chains in the area, is in fact just selling the same poor-quality, mass-market garbage (in my opinion) as the ratty, run-down store it replaced (and where, BTW, I always had the same experience of them being out of whatever it was I went there to buy -- but I don't know if that's intrinsic to the buying and stocking policies of that particular location, or just some kind of bizarre coincidence). It's a triumph of marketing over substance. As for projecting, I'm not claiming that my experience is anything other than my own or that anyone has to agree with me, nor did I suggest that anyone else doesn't "get it." However, the premise of chowhound is that chowhounds don't settle for mediocrity in their food, and in that sense, I do think that most big chain supermarkets and chain restaurants -- which by their nature are targeting the lowest common denominator -- are not not serving the needs of chowhounds. Fri Feb 24 15:06:36 -0800 2006 1682589 0 Ruth Lafler 3 1682615 "I was struck by the fact that this Safeway, which is trying by its look and feel to emulate some of the more upscale "gourmet" grocery chains in the area, is in fact just selling the same poor-quality, mass-market garbage (in my opinion) as the ratty, run-down store it replaced". Or, perhaps, they are just trying to make their average, mass-market offerings available in a more aesthetically pleasant setting. "It's a triumph of marketing over substance" Or, perhaps, it's just that most of the population can't realistically utilize boutique markets and/or multiple vendors for their particular needs. Example: I do the grocery shopping for both my family and my wife's home day care business. It would either be a ridiculous and wasteful tactic, or an enormous logistical challenge to try and procure staple goods for the day care business at a Co-op, Farmers' Market (when they're available up here in Minnesota), or other non-standard grocery source. I suppose I could orchestrate dairy deliveries direct from the farm, plot out the logistics of hitting the small, local vendors and have my wife raise her day care charges to accommodate offering organic chicken nuggets and grass fed beef hot dogs, as well as the expense of traveling to multiple markets. But I'll sacrifice having to "endure" an average grocery store when/if I don't have the luxury of preference. Mine is a struggle with limited business budget and my unpaid effort to support my wife's business. For many, the struggle is low income. A company that enables access to the budget, mass-market shopping that so many depend on to get by without making a person feel like a budget human being should be applauded in my mind. So while I'm not impressed by their groceries, I appreciate the "product" of an aesthetically pleasing, clean place to shop on a dime. Note: I don't extend this appreciation to clean, aesthetically pleasing chain restaurants in my area. There are so many unique, non-chain places putting out wonderful cuisine at equivalent prices to chain places that the economic/accessibility factor is not as valid as the discussion of shopping for necessities like groceries. Don't get me wrong, I'm actually on your side as it pertains to groceries as a luxury not a necessity, but I think comparing TJ's to supermarkets is an apples-to-oranges proposition for those with average, everyday means. Fri Feb 24 17:23:54 -0800 2006 1682592 0 MSPD 4 1682622 I sympathize. I understand that as a single person I can afford to spend a bit more on groceries than many people, and that I have more, and more convenient, options than many people. But considering the huge cost of building these fancy new stores (discussed in a thread a while back), I can't credit Safeway with building them for the comfort and pleasure of the financially strapped shopper. Rather, they're using lighting and other merchandising techniques to make the consumer think s/he's getting something better -- and thus a better value -- than s/he really is. Fri Feb 24 18:17:07 -0800 2006 1682615 0 Ruth Lafler 4 1682623 This may be completely beside the point, but I am confused at the assumption that Trader Joe's is more expensive than the grocery store. I love high quality products as much as the next guy, but my budget has been pretty low lately, so I have been making more of an effort to be sure to get all the items I need at my weekly TJ's stop so that I don't have to go to the grocery store (also a Safeway) for them just for price considerations. Maybe it is the foods I buy, but for my staples, TJ's takes off about 25%. Bagged lettuce is $1.99 vs 3.50 Cheese is much less expensive Canned beans are priced every day at what Safeway has for sale varieties, if you find the ones you need fo that week on sale. Even bottles of water, when I need those are much less expensive at TJ's. I personally shop at Trader Joe's once or twice a week and supplement with one or two trips to the produce market on my corner. I hit the Safeway for things like Best Foods Mayo (no other brand tastes right) and other foods/supplies where my brand loyalty was built too long ago to change it. Fri Feb 24 18:23:38 -0800 2006 1682615 0 Meredith 5 1682648 It's virtually impossible to cover all local situations with one statement about this, but I agree with you. TJs is not necessarily more expensive than local supermarkets--if you can afford to go to multiple sources. My local TJs beats both the local supermarkets (in terms of quality and sometimes price) and the local prestige market (in terms of price and sometimes quality) when it comes to meat, for example. I think the biggest issue with TJs is that it probably can't be your one-stop shopping spot. But then, I'd hate to be in a circumstance in which the local supermarket was the only option. Fri Feb 24 22:48:17 -0800 2006 1682623 0 Mike McElliott 1 1682591 Don't know where you live. I think my Safeway carries organic dairy, I don't worry about organic. They have organic veggies in large numbers, and some of the bakery items are pretty good. Better anyway than most I bake. The ice cream cakes are really good. But hey I would rather have a Hershey bar than See's candy. Anyway, I go to the Rockridge Safeway in Oakland, CA. Fri Feb 24 14:57:50 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Janet 1 1682593 I shop at TJ's- mostly for snack foods- and I have been trying some of their frozen products. I shop at a Farm Market for my produce and cheeses. I go to BJ's for stockpiling some products ( paper plates, plastic bags, wraps, and bottled water). I go every few months to a meat market to stock up. Between these trips, the local supermarkets do the trick. One local supermarket has good meats. And there is another supermarket I use for those Sundays when I need one or two things for dinner preparation. I enjoy shopping at the farm markets, etc- Spend most weekends cooking for extended friends and family- but I certainly could not say there is nothing in my local supermarket I do not want to buy - as much as I will admit I hate shopping at my local Shaws market. Fri Feb 24 15:08:57 -0800 2006 1682581 0 macca 1 1682594 i do like TJ's but have to plan to go there. It is on the north side of Indianapolis and that is anywhere from 1.5 hours away and up to 2. I love the Fage Greek yogurt, I can get an old favorite brand, McAdam cheddar from northern NYS, I will take a cooler for things like their haricots vert and the wild organic blueberries, cabot butter and things of that sort. At home I frequent 3 grocery stores 1 butcher shop and a co-op, 2 Asian market and one multi-ethnic. I cannot get all that I want in any one of them. My Kroger does carry organic, the co-op is only organic and my other 2 stores are both Indiana chains and they also have organic. I usually don't care about organic one way or another except for Muir Glen fire roasted tomatoes. This being a college town there is a demand for the organic stuff. The multi-ethnic store is very organic and health oriented but what I go there for is chocolate. They have an amazing assortment from all over and stock real English Cadbury's, imported, not the Hershey made junk. I guess it comes down to just having to go where the stuff is, not all stores chains or independents can be all things to all people Fri Feb 24 15:35:16 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Candy 1 1682596 As you said, Ruth, it's not fair to judge Safeway by one post 9:00pm Sunday visit. There are very few Sunday deliveries and many folks have just shopped for their week's groceries on Sunday. All of my local Safeways carry at least 2 kinds of organic milk including their own brand. And many of their other products are either less expensive or better than similar TJ products. I shop at TJ's quite a bit, but it certainly doesn't fill all my needs, and neither does added shopping at farmers' markets and fancy grocers or butchers. My family simply can't afford to shop at boutique markets for all of our groceries and we find lots of excellent items at Safeway. Of course, not all Safeways are alike. I shop at those which carry the items that I like and which have butchers who cut meat the way I like. And, by the way, Safeway has recently started to carry some excellent lamb. I'm not that fond of their bakery, but they do bake some nice kaiser rolls that make excellent hamburger buns, and many stores carry breads from good local artisan bakeries. Also, many stores carry excellent produce from local suppliers at much lower prices than the fancy markets. And, finally, I do use some products that make my life easier and save time -- Ghirardelli Brownie Mix, canned broth, canned tomatoes, bottled pasta sauce, etc. and Safeway sale prices on these items are very attractive -- and the "brand name" items are often much better tasting than TJ's similar ones. I'm not a food snob, I'm a Chowhound, and I try to find tasty food in all kinds of stores, whether they be food boutiques or supermarkets. Fri Feb 24 15:44:26 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Nancy Berry 2 1682600 I'm willing to believe that this Safeway carries organic milk. But it sort of defeats the point of being open late on Sundays if they can't keep a reasonable mix of products on the shelf. It's one thing to be out of one brand or type of milk, but it's simply ridiculous for it not to have milk of any brand or type in a one-quart container. At a minimum, I expect a supermarket to be convenient. If a supermarket can't be counted on to have its products in stock when I need them, it loses much of any value it does have to me, as a shopper. Fri Feb 24 16:12:07 -0800 2006 1682596 0 Ruth Lafler 3 1682610 after 9pm on Sunday night, be thankful you got properly refrigirated milk at cheaper supermarket prices. be thankful you got supermarket at all. one day drive into your nearest ghetto - you'll be lucky if you find a single bodega with couple of limpy iceberg and rotten tomatoes... supermarket chains like Safeway bring good quality products to masses at affordable prices. sorry you couldn't find organic milk, but do they serve organic milk in your county's public schools? Fri Feb 24 17:04:25 -0800 2006 1682600 0 welle 4 1682617 "do they serve organic milk in your county's public schools?" Actually, Ruth lives in the Bay Area. We have public schools with student run organic gardens and wood fire burning ovens where the students make their own pizza with heirloom tomatoes and European cheese. The organic student lunch program is growing slowly, but it is still growing. We also have local non-profits that buy organic produce wholesale from local Farmers' Markets and bring it to the nearby ghettos to sell at cost. One of the most endearing things I've ever read is a quote from a poor, disadvantaged child after his first visit to the Farmers' Market: "I love those purple things, what are they, the plums? Yeah! They're even better than potato chips!" Heck, even our homeless eat organic foods. Anyway, I'm not trying to negate your point. I'm only pointing out that people who live in the Bay Area may have different expectations than people who live elsewhere. Which is not to say that the Bay Area is a better place to live, it is just a different place to live. Fri Feb 24 17:33:00 -0800 2006 1682610 0 Morton the Mousse 1 1682601 If you head to TJs at 9pm on Sunday, they are closed. Also, if you head there late at night, you will find that they have more than their share of stock-outs (out of an item). Look, I like TJs as much as the next person BUT they are *NO* comparison to a lot of the independent groceries here in Chicago which have better produce, better store-made bakery, and fine quality meats, none of which can be found in our local TJs. One other point. There are any number of small meat producers, small creameries, produce producers in the Midwest ... but you will find little of that in Chicagoland TJs stores which seem to source most perishables from BOSTON. Fri Feb 24 16:13:22 -0800 2006 1682581 0 jlawrence01 1 1682603 I actually have the reverse position to you re. markets. I primarily shop at Gelson's, which has a wide selection of organic dairy products, organic veggies, and a really good deli/meat/bakery section. I hate shopping at Trader Joe's. The parking lot is always over-crowded, the aisles are narrow, the checkout lines long, and the selection of goods uneven. I will shop there if I'm having a party and need lots of wine, or occasionally when I have a craving for total greek yogurt or need whipping cream, but for the most part, I avoid it. I suppose my position would be different if I lived near a bigger, newer store with a better parking situation, but for my needs, it's too much of a hassle. Fri Feb 24 16:14:37 -0800 2006 1682581 0 DanaB 2 1682695 I live near a bigger newer TJ's and still avoid the place if I have to for all the same reasons. I don't think saving bucks on groceries should be that much work. Sat Feb 25 23:00:36 -0800 2006 1682603 0 Tracy L. 1 1682606 I too get the food we eat exclusively from the Farmer's Market and Trader Joes. Yesterday, however I needed some meds for the kids and killed two birds by doing a mid-week catch-up shop at the proletariat Von's in the Silverlake area of Los Angeles. First of all, the store was nearly empty and the staff was ultra-friendly in that mind controlled way. It was also cleaner than I expected. Cage free eggs and unsalted butter were both way higher than at TJs. I did buy Best Foods Mayo--I don't like the TJs mayo--or any commercial brand but Best Foods/Hellmans so this was a good find. I also bought turkey thighs, which I think are fabulous and not available at TJs and I browsed some of the other "economy" meat cuts which aren't available at TJs and I like once in a while for braising. I noticed too a not bad selection of fresh fish, which I might check out next time. Overall, I was pretty impressed and won't hesitate to make a quick stop here once in a while, although Trader Joe's will remain the main purveyor. Fri Feb 24 16:44:22 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Slow Foodie 1 1682611 The only thing I find useful at TJ's is the frozen food section - namely burritos and shrimp. Everything else I can find at my local supermarket chains, and usually its a much wider selection for each item. Maybe my TJ's sucks and my local chains are good. Maybe your TJ's is good and your Safeway sucks. So you went out of necessity? You absolutely HAD to have organic milk on Sun. night? Let's look at the bigger picture. Here you are complaining that a store didn't have the specific kind of milk for you on a Sun. night, but had other kinds of milk on the shelf. I would just be grateful that you can offord to pick and choose what kind of milk you want to drink and have the means to buy it anywhere you want. If all you have to complain about is a lack of a certain type of milk and delicious treat at one Safeway on a Sunday night, consider yourself blessed. Fri Feb 24 17:09:56 -0800 2006 1682581 0 rl 2 1682616 No, you misunderstood. I had to have milk (unforeseen demand from company). It wasn't just that I couldn't find organic milk (although I do prefer it), it was that in this *huge* Safeway there was only one kind of milk, and only in half gallons. A market where the doors are open and the lights are on but that doesn't have staples like a *quart of milk* is of no more use than one that's closed. A market where you have to spend more to buy a larger amount than you need is in practice no better than a more expensive one. Maybe, as many of you have implied, I'm spoiled in my shopping options and attitudes. But whether or not I have more shopping options than other people or other communities isn't relevant in comparing the merits of the shopping opportunities that *are* available to me with each other. Fri Feb 24 17:27:23 -0800 2006 1682611 0 Ruth Lafler 3 1682621 Ruth, Again, I probably fit your shopping profile and I always appreciate your opinions on these boards. But please quit while you're behind. You can't go into a nice, new TJ Maxx and complain that they don't have a Dolce & Gabbana suit or Armani silk underwear in your exact size in stock. Quarts of milk are not cost-effective for the demographic that shops at Safeway. Quarts of milk are not a staple for the majority of people. Quarts of milk are an exception, and offered at an additional cost per unit as a luxury by vendors with a more particular and/or affluent demographic. As a whole, when a store tries to make the shopping experience and selection as high quality as possible FOR THEIR TARGET MARKET, it's a good thing. Just because the lights are on when noplace else's are doesn't mean they are required to be the solution for the highest common denominator. You can't put the two on an even playing field using your perspective. Fri Feb 24 18:03:11 -0800 2006 1682616 0 MSPD 4 1682624 You're right about quitting while I'm behind -- clearly no one agrees with me! It certainly never occurred to me that wanting to buy a quart of milk put me into a "higher denominator" of shoppers. Next time I'll know to skip Safeway and buy one at the liquor store! A question, though. If their customers don't buy quarts of milk, why were they out of them? Fri Feb 24 18:24:44 -0800 2006 1682621 0 Ruth Lafler 5 1682626 Look, I'm not asking to get into the details of their supply and demand of quarts. Maybe they stock three at a time and coincidentally four people wanted them that Saturday. I do maintain that quart size milk straddles the line of luxury and necessity when you consider wasteful packaging and cost per quantity. It's OK to admit to being in the "higher denominator". Your perspective has merit but you opened yourself up for a serious flaming. Harsh criticism based on unavailability of a relatively low-demand item and fresh bakery at 9 p.m. on Sunday, when discussed using terms like "snobbery", "prejudice being reinforced" reeks of pretentiousness, unfairness and arrogance. (Which I believe from reading your posts over time are just not indicative of your true character.) You can tactfully feel lucky to be able to satisfy your Chowhound jones in whatever size and organic status at Trader Joes and your vast available boutique markets in the Bay Area, despite the "dissing" that they get, and leave out the shot at a store which is providing a quality shopping experience and products to a sizeable, different market. Fri Feb 24 19:01:38 -0800 2006 1682624 0 MSPD 5 1682654 Just a little support here. I noticed this same thing at the newly remodeled Safeway in Marin in Mill Valley. I went on a Friday night at about five pm and, while the milk was fully stocked ... THERE WAS ONE BRAND !!! It is the thing that I always hated about the Safeway on Market in SF. They remodelled, huge store, but instead of a bigger variety, there was just more of a particular item. The Safeway near you just opened, so they may not have their product forecasting fine-tuned yet. I know they are replacing an existing store, but because it is new, it may be attracting more people currently who are curious. And each store be it TJ or Safeway, is dependant on the store manager for stocking. The Cala Foods on California could be counted on for running out of sale items. You seem to have a good TJ near you. As you know I'm not a fan, but the locations I've shopped at ... not so great. Like the dairy selections and prices, but as mentioned a while back, the dairy goes bad quick. Safeway does have a really good tres leches cake in their bakeshop that is sold in individual slices. Not so crazy about most of the other baked goods. I really like my Raley's. There is almost a mid-ground between TJ and Safeway. They have their organic products and a nice selection of interesting items and prices are not bad. They also make the best supermarket rotisarrie chicken. I finally tried the BBQ type of roast chicken recently and was really pleased. They were out of the lemon rosemary I liked, so I picked this up. Not a sweet BBQ coating, but savory. Really nice. I know their chickens are not organic and probably pumped with stuff, but IMO they taste better to me that the fancy dancy one at Cafe Rouge, and they are half the price. Of course, when Maggies starts selling Lola's chicken, Raley's won't be in the running. Never thought to check for an organic section it the big Safeways. Raley's does that. I know that the GOOD Safeway in Freemont on Warm Springs has a separate organinic section. However, this is the super duper Safeway ... the gold standard of Safeways. They have their own REAL cheese counter with wheels of cheese and they give you tastes like Cheeseboard. Even though they are closer in standard selection, even Supermarkets are not created equalyy. In SF my preference was always the Marina Safeway no matter how annoying the customers. The Cala/Bell on bush was the best of that chain. Even though I love my Raley's, the one in Vallejo(Benicia?) is better. As to comments about targeting demographics, the Safeway in Marin, of all places one of the wealthiest areas of the Bay Area, one would think there would be a demand for more than one brand of milk and even organic. As for not settling and looking for delicousness, I would guess the best thing to do is to point out deliciousness in even the banal. If one really lookes there are very few places that don't have some grade of deliciousness ... Raley' rotisarrie chicken ... the tres leches cake at Safeway ... and in my sardine quest, Safeway has the best selection with one very tasty brand - Yankee Pier, that noone else sells. The reports of what Trader Joe's sells good and bad are well documented on this board. And IIRC, I think Will Owen was reporting on the LA board that Food4Less makes one tasty rotisarrie chicken. I just haven't had the opportunity to check it out yet. It's on my list. Chino Wayne once reported on some supermarket that fried their own fried chicken and the strategies for getting it fresh from the frier. I remember the dumbest things on this board. Also familiarity with a market helps. You shop frequently at TJ and are more familiar with the products. I know what to look for at Raley's, Safeway, Cala or Albertson (one of the best boxed wine selection in a supermarket ... about a dozen varietes including Black Box at good prices ... finding the delicous in Albertson's CAN be a challenge currently). Even SF's Ferry Plaza Farmer's Market gets trashed by visitors occasionally on the board because they are not familiar with it and don't know what good stuff to look for. And isn't that what Chowhound is for? Letting each other know where the good stuff is? Delicousness is hiding where one leasts expects it. Sat Feb 25 01:02:46 -0800 2006 1682624 0 rworange 6 1682659 I'm glad to hear that Safeway's tres leches cake is delicious. After looking at the number of artificial additives on the ingredient list and smelling the fake vanillin, I put the package down quickly. Sat Feb 25 04:07:32 -0800 2006 1682654 0 Melanie Wong 7 1682671 mmmm ... vanillan ... the sweet taste of wood pulp waste products. I wonder if it will be considered organic vanillan if they make it out of organic agricultural waste or organic fungi. Well, like all Chowhound posts, you have to consider the taste of the poster. I still go out of my way to buy green Hostess snowballs on St. Patrick's day. IMO, the deeper the dye the better the taste. I'm going to have to re-read the ingrediants of that Safeway tres leches cake and see excactly WHAT type of leches is in the cake. In a recent Kraft singles thread, my searches for recipes uncovered the fact that MPC (milk protein concentrate) which is in the cheese is not considered a food product by the FDA. So I'll have to check out what that pleasant little pool of liquid is at the bottom of the Safeway tres leches cake. Hopefully milk. Link: http://www.uyseg.org/greener_industry/pages/vanillin/4Vanillin_PMS.htm Sat Feb 25 14:03:36 -0800 2006 1682659 0 rworange 8 1682682 Of course, it must be pointed out that there has been nothing determined to be toxic or harmful in vanillin. The fact that it is made from a leftover result of wood pulp processing should be seen as a positive to the "environmentalists", since it is an effective, local reuse of an otherwise discarded byproduct. Also, the harvesting and transportation costs involved with vanilla and its cumulative harm to the environment should be taken into account when evaluating the impact of vanilla vs. vanillin production. Sat Feb 25 17:54:18 -0800 2006 1682671 0 SuzyInChains 8 1682709 And this post, rworange, is why I love you. I personally prefer pink snowballs and cannot stray beyond. White, purple, green... they just taste wrong to me. Think pink, baby, think pink.... Sun Feb 26 02:57:35 -0800 2006 1682671 0 CH Addict 6 1682660 Lovely post! I still miss the Pavillions Market in Marina del Rey (I moved inland 8 years ago). I used to use coupons (I was shopping for roommates too, now shopping for myself alone, I don't go to that trouble), and they were a Vons affiliate, where I grew up with my mom shopping there. It was a nice, big time commercial market, the likes of which we do not have in Silverlake (near downtown LA, where I live and shop now). That was my first exposure to a nice market that was big, yet had a good selection of healthy/organic items. Plus, they carried this soup brand that was the BEST canned soup I ever ate in my life. I think they may not make it anymore, because I've searched the internet to find the brand (it was Pomi, like the tomatoes. They had the best soups. I saw them once, later at a Bristol Farms but haven't seen them for at least 5 years now) I do like my neighborhood Gelson's, but I liked the store MUCH better when it was Mayfair. One thing Gelson's does that Mayfair never did is hold ripe avocados cold. They put them out, and yes, they are ripe, and decent quality, but they are damp and chilled, and you know you will never get the flavor you would from a non-refrigerated avocado. Somehow Mayfair used to have beautiful avocados, with just enough at the ripe stage that they didn't need to refrigerate. I miss those days. Sat Feb 25 04:57:08 -0800 2006 1682654 0 DanaB 5 1682702 I can really understand your problem. I am not a TJs fan for various reasons but I almost exclusively shop at my local independent grocer. The prices are affordable and I am in and out of there in a flash. Rarely is there a long line and it doesn't take 15 minutes to go from one end of the store to the other. I too have gone to Safeway and have been disappointed. I remember once I was looking for my favorite frozen entree that my little store has, but Safeway, who has a gazillion frozen entrees, doesn't carry it. I often avoid Safeway because it is way too much to fathom for a quick trip the store. Finding smaller packaging for certain products is pretty difficult. With that said I recently visited a big supermarket, which is part of a regional chain, and found it to be exactly the opposite of the Safeway experience. It has a large selection of organic products, a good range of products in various sizes, a knowledgable and friendly (not brainwashed) staff and it is easy to manuever around in and get through the checkout line. What I know about this store is that they really listen to their customers and the market research they do must be better than Safeway. The only thing I can conclude from these experiences is that whether a place is big or small it really boils down to getting to know their customers and their habits. It goes a lot farther than straight demographics. Sun Feb 26 01:12:58 -0800 2006 1682624 0 Tracy L. 4 1682651 I. am. aghast. A *QUART* of milk is the BASIC UNIT of milk, and should be stocked at any concern calling itself a grocery store. Period! "Demographics" do not shop at Safeway. Human beings shop at Safeway. They also shop at Trader Joe's. It appears that Trader Joe's understands this fact, and Safeway does not. Which is why we human beings prefer to shop at Trader Joe's. I sincerely hope Safeway can find enough "demographics" shoppers to keep them in business... Fri Feb 24 23:48:54 -0800 2006 1682621 0 Will Owen 5 1682661 Given that it was a Sunday night, the very end of what are typically the busiest two days of the week for a grocery store, it's possible that the item in question was merely out of stock until the next day. (full disclosure: I work for Whole Foods Market) Sat Feb 25 06:27:53 -0800 2006 1682651 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1682620 I have to say that I do not care for Trader Joe's (admittedly based on only one trip there). The produce is in pre-packaged trays, so I had to buy two (or was it four?) green peppers when I only wanted one. And the frozen gyoza I bought was some weird brand I'd never heard of that had hard bits in the stuffing (I wound up throwing the rest of them out). Of course, here in Chicago, we have plenty of grocery options, like Whole Foods, Fox & Obel and Treasure Island in addition to the commercial chains of Jewel and Dominick's. I guess it depends on your situation. Fri Feb 24 17:40:32 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Akatonbo 2 1682642 Oh how I beg to differ. I too live and shop in Chicago and just this afternoon made a trip to TJ. Here is what I came home with: 1) Broken cashews @ $3.19 a lb, which is what I went for. 2) A frozen filet of wild salmon big-enough-for-two for $6.86. 3) A crab-stuffed flounder filet for $2.99. 4) Four avocados for $2.99. 5) An intriguing tray of frozen seafood Newburgh with filo crust for $5.99. 6) A pound of special extra-sweet frozen pineapple for $1.49. 7) A bag of frozen petite green beans with enclosed packets of Thai sauce, very good, had them for dinner tonight. 8) A bag of frozen cioppino, sounds interesting. Not one of these items would even be available at a mainstream supermarket. And I was virtuous and passed up all the Belgian chocolate at really low prices. PS One reason they sell "weird brands" is that so much of what they sell is house-brand. Jewel and Dominicks are good for wide selection and weekly specials. Treasure Island is good for elegant fruit and nice meat. Ethnic mama-and-papas are good for price, selection, and exotica. But TJ's is unmatched for their combination of price and creativity. Or at least, I think so. Fri Feb 24 22:03:46 -0800 2006 1682620 0 N Tocus 1 1682627 It really surprises me that any large market wouldn't have any organic dairy. If you didn't see where it would have been if it were just sold out, I can't help but wonder if you weren't just looking in the wrong place. Until recently, my local Shaw's kept all of the organic food in a separate section, nowhere near the non-organic dairy. I never remembered it was there because I never bothered with the vitamins, soaps and other stuff in the "organic village". Just a thought in case you ever need to go back. Fri Feb 24 19:32:00 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Princess Bakesalot 2 1682802 The closest supermarket to me also has all their organic/natural foods in a separate section, but I call it the organic ghetto. Mon Feb 27 20:43:37 -0800 2006 1682627 0 Caitlin McGrath 1 1682647 I haven't read this entire thread, but two things: basically, I agree with you that while I've had unsatisfactory experiences with TJs, it's still a wonderful resource and a key component to my weekly shopping. However, I'm not so sure that everything is so bad with the supermarket scene. I live in a near-west Chicago suburb, and there's a TJs in the vicinity (roughly). (There's also a Wild Oats and a Whole Foods, all within a fifteen mile range.) I think the presence of TJs and the other "alternative" options has made a modest but welcome impact on local supermarkets. The negative, of course, is that there's no way I can rely on any one shopping spot. The supermarkets--which have the advantage of being local--are better than they were, but not sufficient. So each week's shopping still entails multiple stops. But I think there's reasonable room for hope of better things to come. Fri Feb 24 22:37:33 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Mike McElliott 1 1682658 Since it seems like TJ's is growing very quickly and perhaps is sacrificing some quality control in the process, I actually am starting to lump it in w/ places like Safeway. I do see it as a "large chain" market (maybe not supermarket). While I shop at TJ's more than I do Safeway (which is literally a block from my house) and really appreciate some of their great values for name brand products, I think they are moving more towards carrying only house brands (ie, less choices)...and the quality of those house brands is variable. And TJ's is guilty of marketing tactics just like the big name stores...they should be, they are a business! So many of their house brand items are packaged nicely and have "gourmet" appeal. Some just taste terrible and are what I consider "junk food" w/ pretty packaging and poetic descriptions. I guess compared to my regular food sources, TJ's is beginning to feel more like Safeway where I go for a handful of items. I've noticed my TJ's milk and half and half turning bad quickly just like my Safeway Lucerne stuff used to... Safeway/Vons has its place and does vary by location. I used to buy Horizon organic milk and half and half from Vons in LA on occasion. Their 24 hr. schedule has saved my butt on a number of occasions when I needed something for latenight baking or had an ice cream craving. What I find most jarring when I go to Safeway nowadays is how holiday candy and knick knacks are boldly displayed. I'm so glad my regular market has one tiny shelf that you hardly notice so I don't have to constantly be reminded of what commercial holiday is up next. Sat Feb 25 03:17:00 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Carb Lover 1 1682668 Very interesting thread, Ruth. Thank you for making some of us think and evaluate our shopping habits, expectations, etc. I've just finished reading University of Maryland's Sociology professor George Ritzer's "THE McDONALDIZATION OF SOCIETY". This thread could have been co-opted from the text, it is that a propos. It will likely have you hopping mad by page two and smoke coming out of your ears by book's end but I promise that you'll never forget this read. It embodies everything we Chowhounds have come to expostulate. BTW, there is solid evidence that much of America has changed grocery shopping habits significantly with the advent of "Big Box" discount stores, boutique markets and organic outlets (to cite only a few examples)competing with the traditional supermarket for our food dollars. Many of the large chain supermarkets are trying to be all things to all people and succeeding at pleasing almost no one. Sat Feb 25 11:45:41 -0800 2006 1682581 0 Sherri 2 1682676 Do you have a link to that article or is it only available off-line? Thanks! Sat Feb 25 16:20:14 -0800 2006 1682668 0 DanaB 3 1682679 DanaB, THE McDONALDIZATION OF SOCIETY is a 278 page textbook that Dr. Ritzer wrote for his class at University of Maryland. I got my through Amazon, ISBN # 0-7619-8628-6, published by Pine Forge Press (www.pineforge.com). It is anything BUT a boring read and one wouldn't know it was originally a textbook without prompting. I am long out of the college world, but wish something as thought-provoking as THE McDONALDIZATION OF SOCIETY was available when I was in school. Sat Feb 25 16:31:26 -0800 2006 1682676 0 Sherri 1 1682685 Perhaps TJ's should be open the same extended hours as the major supermarkets, sometimes around the clock seven days a week. But, of course, they would have to probably raise prices to cover the less profitable late night/early morning shifts when the number of customers is usually lower than the numbr of employees. No, Safeway isn't doing it to qualify for sainthood, but they are nonetheless open when TJ's is closed. I prefer to look at it as a big positive that milk is available at any crazy hour of the night, rather than a negative that the kind of milk I may want is not availble at a place that I am not supporting, when the store that I usually spend my money at is closed. It seems to me that at the moment when TJ's is not willing to provide what you need, the fact that someone else has a reasonable substitute available should be appreciated a little more. Sat Feb 25 18:06:02 -0800 2006 1682581 0 SuzyInChains 1 1682734 I wish I could once again be shopping in the smaller specialty markets, like TJ's. Since moving to NC, I can no longer find these great little shops. Only grocery stores and not very large ones at that. They do not have the variety of produce or other products that I'd become accustomed to in north Jersey. Oh well, I guess I have to sacrifice some things for no traffic, nice polite people, cheaper housing, etc. Sun Feb 26 17:42:51 -0800 2006 1682581 0 shari2NJnolonger