301456 Thu Feb 02 11:14:19 -0800 2006 13 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1681069 Was at the state store the other night and heard the manager directing a customer to the organic wines section. I was puzzled. Just now, I was reading about a new vegan place opening (in Phila) and they will serve vegan wines. Considering I know nothing, really, about wine making nor its ingredients, can someone enlighten me as to how a wine inherently is not necessarily organic nor vegan?? Thanks. Thu Feb 02 11:14:19 -0800 2006 0 rumdrinks 1 1681073 Wine is not organic if the grapes used to make it are not grown organically. Egg whites (albumen) are used clarify some red wines, and that would make them non-vegan. Thu Feb 02 11:22:55 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Kirk 1 1681074 Vineyards are plauged with insects and disease the same way other crops are and very few are organic. Organic is actually a very difficult standard for wines because of the occasional need for pesticides and fungicides. While some crops can easily transition to organic, wine is quite hard. Don't know about the vegan thing. Thu Feb 02 11:23:01 -0800 2006 1681069 0 JudiAU 1 1681075 Organic wine would have to one where the grapes were grown organically - without the use of chemical fertilizers is one of the key criteria for organic. Not genetically modified is another. More info here: http://www.organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicWine.htm In terms of Vegan, part of the process of making wine is clarification, which is usually done with stuff made from animal bits - gelatins, caseines, that sort of thing. More info: http://veganconnection.com/notvegan.html Thu Feb 02 11:23:18 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Jacquilynne 1 1681077 Here's an article that explains organic wine. http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/187 And this page has an explanation of vegan wine. http://vegan-info.com/faq.html#heading3question18 Are wines and liquors vegan? To clear wine after fermentation, some of these ingredients are used: casein and potassium caseinate (milk proteins), edible gelatins (made from bones), animal albumin (egg albumin and dried blood powder). Isinglass (from fish) is commonly used to clarify wine. There are some vegan wines on the market. It is difficult to tell which liquors are vegan and which are not. Thu Feb 02 11:32:09 -0800 2006 1681069 0 rl 1 1681081 There are a number of wineries that grown their grapes organically. One of the better ones is Robert Sinskey. They make outstanding wines especially pinots. However, the wines themselves are not organic. One reason is almost all wines have sulfides in them, used to preserve the wine. Without sulfides the wine may or may not age correctly and there is no way of controlling this. As others have mentioned, there is alos the clarifying issue. You can also fine wines that are "unfiltered and unfined", still they will no doubt have sulfides in them. Having worked in a wine store for a number of years, I have never seen a true vegan wine. They are probably out there someplace, but I think it's very "iffy" with regard to quality. Thu Feb 02 11:45:03 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Monty 2 1681118 Robert Mondavi in Napa tells people on their tours that they grow their grapes as organically as they can (I assume that means within money-based constraints), but they don't put the organic label on in case pesticides float onto their vineyards from neighboring crops that aren't grown organically. The extra care necessary and potential loss must be what drives prices up for organic wines. Imagine having to re-label a whole year's worth of wine after you'd paid to stick a big "organic" label on the front. Thu Feb 02 15:20:18 -0800 2006 1681081 0 nooodles 3 1681169 Sinskey labels their wines "Made from C.C.O.F., certified organic grapes", but that's it. I guess I never thought about "drifting" items I would think that would be true for any item grown "organically, grapes or food. However, places that grow organically use none themselves. Thu Feb 02 20:23:21 -0800 2006 1681118 0 Monty 3 1681402 Indeed. To be certified organic you have to prove the non-organics (chemical fertilizers and the like) from nearby sources cannot contaminate your crops or land. Tue Feb 07 16:34:34 -0800 2006 1681118 0 Geoff 2 1681180 Try sulphites instead of sulfides. The use of sulphur dioxide and sulphiting agents such as potassium metabisulphite is common in winemaking to control undesirable microorganisms. Sterilizing winemaking equipment, particularly things made of wood, without using sulphiting agents or something that would be prone to leaving adverse aromas (such as chlorine bleach) is very difficult. Burning sulphur in barrels to sterilize them was done for centuries before the microbiology was understood. Wines with volatile sulphides are likely to range from unpleasant to undrinkable. Thu Feb 02 23:10:41 -0800 2006 1681081 0 Eldon Kreider 1 1681098 Vegan... One of the reasons for Kosher wine is the use of animal products in the clarifying process as noted by others. What I dont know is whether modern kosher wine production still uses animal products, albiet from kosher sources, or alternative products where the kosher derivation of the processing agents is no longer at issue. (There are other aspects (some political) of wine production which also require kosher oversight as well, but not the subject of your question.) As to organic, the others have said it all. Keeping a vinyard pest free without pesticide is quite a challenge. Thu Feb 02 13:20:55 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Harlan 1 1681187 Are wines made in France in the classic manner adulterated with anything? I have never heard of clarifying French wine with any product or method other than decanting. Fri Feb 03 04:09:06 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Chantal 2 1681216 Seems that there is a great deal of misinformation flying around this topic. To wit... 1) Wineries do not add sulphides to wine. The agent most commonly used is Potassium Metabisulphite, and the distinction is important. To be sure, there are a growing number of wineries that do not add sulphites either. Sulphites are, however, generated at low levels in the process of fermentation whether they are added or not. The law requires wine and beer labels to contain the statement "contains sulphites" if the levels are > or = to 10ppm (extremeley low)whether they were added or not. 2) Contrary to what has been said on this thread, there are a great many CA winegrape growers that have been certified organic, and many more in the process of being certified. Organic growing, Biodynamics, and sustainable vineyard practices are all hot topics in the wine industry here and abroad. I know producers who grow grapes organically, but choose not to say so on the label, precisely because of the confusion so evident in these posts. 3) Natural fining agents have been used around the world (most definitely in France) for centuries, and are very much the "classic" approach. It is really no different than the classic approach to clarifying meat broth using a beaten eggwhite. Fri Feb 03 13:49:53 -0800 2006 1681187 0 Sam B 1 1681193 Some wineries fine the wines with egg whites. Fri Feb 03 09:57:04 -0800 2006 1681069 0 Tugboat