300786 Fri Sep 02 21:52:41 -0700 2005 36 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1673771 I hope this is the right site! I live in San Francisco and shop mostly at Rainbow Grocery (a massive vegetarian health food store), but Whole Foods is much nearer (and sells flesh), so I occasionally shop there. I am partial to Bob's Red Mill Organic White Whole Wheat Four and use it in lots of items, from breads to pie dough. (It's got a more delicate flavor than regular whole wheat flours but allegedly a similar nutrition profile.) WF stopped carryng it but would special-order it for me. In the past it came in just a few days, but this time, it was 7 weeks and I'd spoken on the phone to 9 different people over that time. Someone told me, "It will be in tomorrow," so I went to the store. No special order. The live Stevia plant did not list either its nursery or whether it was organic. (I was assured it was the latter.) I chose a wild salmon steak (14.95/lb). Just then someone I knew came up and greeted me but something out of the corner of my eye made me ask the fishmonger to reweigh the salmon. The scale said $15.95/lb. She then got permission to "do me the favor" of charging me the listed price! I wandered by the flour section and lo and behold, someone had apparently stacked my order there, even though it had disappeared from the shelves months earlier. I retrieved four of the six bags I'd ordered (and the nice customer service person gave me the 10% discount). Tasted an unfamiliar organic grape that turned out to be delicious (and when I got home discovered it was featured in a Food section story that very day), but there was no price for the plastic cartons. Asked a worker, who said he'd check in back and find me in the checkout line, which he never did. (Turned out to be $5 for a pound.) Though I've found the workers at WF to be almost always helpful and friendly, the incompetence at this store amazes me. Indeed, over the years I'd estimate that one out of two receipts has had an error, almost always, coincidentally I assume, in the store's favor, and the system is set up so that one has to to go to customer service to get it corrected. But the darn place is a gold mine, even in San Francisco, where most large grocery stores are union and WF is decidedly not. (Despite the above-annotated series of mishaps, my chief gripe remains that it passes itself off as a "health food store" but the majority of the produce, year round, is not organic and it's necessary for those of us who prefer to buy only organic to seek out each and every produce sign, a daunting exercise that adds far too much time to the shopping experience. What's more, its conventional produce generally is priced higher than Rainbow's and sometimes even Real Food's organic versions of the same items!) Fri Sep 02 21:52:41 -0700 2005 0 Fine 1 1673773 Having shopped in a few Whole Foods, in NY, in LA various locations and in Miami, and Albuquerque what I can say is the management at various locations various greatly. Here in Santa Monica where I live the new Whole Foods on Wilshire Blvd seems to be very well managed..I have had well handled special orders, and very friendly and quick to help staff. Other Whole Foods in LA I can't say the same...and I particularly have had bad experiences at the Fairfax and third..it's a nightmare. I can only suggest that you direct a complaint to the corporate management listing your complaints and suggesting they address the short comings of the local management at that SF location...you would be doing them a favour if you did. I agree that the selection of organic produce is sad...but I mostly shop farmers markets for produce. And I shop a food co-op for bulk grains and nuts. For cheeses and meats Whole Foods is the best local store around me. by the way...I heard that a Whole Foods in Louisiana was donating to a group that has been making gallons of Gumbo and Jambalaya to rescue workers and people in NO Sat Sep 03 00:15:23 -0700 2005 1673771 0 ciaolette 2 1673778 Yeah, in the Chicago suburbs I've encountered similar problems. Most individuals who work there seem nice, but mistakes abound, as do items with no prices. And I could really do without the attitude a couple of the guys give you when you ask for a price-- they act like it *must* be on display and you *must* be missing it, when they have to know that on some days a third of the items in produce probably lack prices. One thing I really hate in businesses is when people talk bulls*** to me, and there is a certain amount of that that goes on. Once I asked when they would have some rotisserie chicken, and they told me to come back in 15 minutes. 20 minutes later I came back and they told me to come back in 15 minutes. I said, "I asked 15 minutes ago" and then they admitted the rotisserie was broken. Why on earth can't they say stuff like that upfront? I know it's difficult working in that place; I see how some of the customers act and again, most of the people who work there are pretty good, but there are some very obvious things that could easily be fixed. Sat Sep 03 10:56:13 -0700 2005 1673773 0 bibi rose 3 1673793 What's fascinating to me is that not too long ago I read that WF was the number one-rated employer in the US! Sat Sep 03 17:46:43 -0700 2005 1673778 0 Fine 4 1673797 I'd be very interested to hear what your source reference is, as the pay scale at WF in relation to most grocery personnel is laughable, and I can't imagine that the benefits/working conditions make up for it. In the greater Chicago area, WF checkers typically make less than half of what checkers at Jewel (Albertson's), Dominick's (Safeway), or Treasure Island (independent) do. Sat Sep 03 18:28:39 -0700 2005 1673793 0 peg 5 1673850 i'm pretty sure that that was in forbes magazine. Mon Sep 05 13:22:48 -0700 2005 1673797 0 violet 6 1673858 The 'best company to work for' thing refers to a Fortune magazine list of the 100 best companies to work for. WFM has been on that list for eight straight years. There's a press release about this on the company's website. Full disclosure: I work for Whole Foods Market (not as a spokesperson). Mon Sep 05 20:42:07 -0700 2005 1673850 0 Jim Dorsch 7 1673872 As both Fortune and Forbes speak exclusively to the interests of owners and employers, I give very little credence to their opinions about the best places to work. "In loyalty to their kind..." Tue Sep 06 10:44:44 -0700 2005 1673858 0 Shep 8 1673918 Labor costs = low Profit margin = high Union "problems" = nil Wal-mart-like predatory practices with respect to small local businesses of the same kind = oh, yeah Yup, Shep. You are 100% spot on. Tue Sep 06 23:17:55 -0700 2005 1673872 0 sdp 2 1673795 I tried to paste in your comment about contacting the home office, but it disappeared! Some years ago when the first WF I ever saw opened in Berkeley, I wrote an outraged letter, since I naively thought it was representing itself to the world as a health food store. I basically said, "This is the SFBA; you can't fob off overpriced ap-cray on us!" Perhaps a bit more diplomatically, because I got a long, friendly, grateful response and a coupon. In more recent years, my emails detailing any mishaps have been ignored, so I gave up. One would hope that WF will see this exchange and benefit from it. Perhaps I'll email a heads-up. Sat Sep 03 18:11:53 -0700 2005 1673773 0 Fine 1 1673774 HAve you considered ordering Bob's Red Mill stuff online? Purchasing flours online is usually much more efficient. You get fresher stuff, the delivery service does the hauling (so you can do it all at once), and you get more choice. Link: http://www.bobsredmill.com/ Sat Sep 03 06:36:59 -0700 2005 1673771 0 Karl S. 2 1673780 I agree! I've had great experience with Bob's Red Mill ordering the items that my local stores (SEA) don't carry. Daniel Sat Sep 03 11:36:11 -0700 2005 1673774 0 Daniel 3 1673781 How do you guys order flour on-line and keep it cost effective? I just went to the website and randomly chose five kinds of basic flour. Usually Whole Foods in San Francisco will carry (or order) them for about $4-6 per five pound sack. The total, after shipping, was over $50 on-line. that's $10 for every 5 lbs of flour! Perhaps you live closer to Bob's shipping center, or just find that the product really is worth that much. Is it? I agree that the selection is very impressive. Were it not for the shipping, it would be a bargain, too. Sat Sep 03 12:44:48 -0700 2005 1673780 0 nooodles 4 1673783 Whole Foods isn't the only store in SF that carries Bob's Red Mill products. There are many, many others. I'll post a list of a number of them on the SF board. Sat Sep 03 14:52:25 -0700 2005 1673781 0 Nancy Berry 5 1673784 Thanks for posting the extensive list on the SF board. My question was more because it would be wonderful to have three or four five pound bags of flour delivered to my door, as I don't drive. What do others who use the shipping method do about the high cost? Sat Sep 03 15:21:58 -0700 2005 1673783 0 nooodles 6 1673785 Not sure if you are specifically looking for Bob's or flour delivery in general, but Alberton's which carries it has grocery delivery. There is a charge, but it is cheaper than shipping charges. For other flours, Safeway delivers also. I have Albertsons deliver heavy items I don't want to personally lug home like kitty litter or cases of bottled water. I put in occasional big orders so the cost is minimal for what I'm getting. Of course I never get things I need to eye like produce or paper towel patterns. I was torn on placing this on the SF board or this one, but I guess these are chain markets. Sat Sep 03 15:58:08 -0700 2005 1673784 0 rworange 4 1673817 Last time I ordered online from Bob's, I ordered Dark Rye flour/Pumpernickel, which, as far as I could determine, was not available locally (SEA). I had checked Whole Foods, local coops, etc. Thus it was pay the shipping or do without, a non-option at the time. There's no point in paying the shipping cost for those items you can obtain locally. Daniel Sun Sep 04 12:57:33 -0700 2005 1673781 0 Daniel 2 1673788 Yes, I did consider ordering, but not only is shipping expensive but I get a 10% discount if I order a case at WF. If I get desperate, that's what I'll end up doing unless I can find the organic white whole wheat at one of Nancy's suggested spots, for which I want to say a loud THANKS! Sat Sep 03 17:27:55 -0700 2005 1673774 0 Fine 1 1673775 Your experience was very interesting to read about and unfortunately all too typical. The inability to correct an obvious mistake at the cash register is a situation with which I am familiar. I was once charged forty-three dollars for four golden beets, told I had to PAY that amount, then take the receipt to customer service and get my money back! That same visit, there were moldy strawberries out, yogurt past the sell date, and briskets with so many layers of fat in them they were obviously unusable. I wrote a letter and received a five dollar coupon for each "offense." Chicago store. Sat Sep 03 08:52:58 -0700 2005 1673771 0 Coyote 2 1673787 I had to chuckle at the brisket with so many layers of fat: In the "bad old days," before I acknowledged that, along with many wonderful attributes, I had also inherited my family's cardiovascular weaknesses, I used to bemoan how difficult it had become to find fatty enough brisket for making my own corned beef or even pot roasts/"sholet" meat that wouldn't dry out. I was reduced to buying "point," since it was the fattier end. Is it possible that was what you saw? Sat Sep 03 17:22:59 -0700 2005 1673775 0 Fine 3 1673791 Know what you mean about "enough" fat in brisket. However, when I queried the counterman about these particular pieces of meat, his comment, and I will never forget it, was "them is some ugly briskets!" Will say I've had some other good experiences at Whole Foods. They had also just changed vendors for their beef, later changed again. Sat Sep 03 17:42:40 -0700 2005 1673787 0 Coyote 1 1673777 Let's face it, Whole Foods is an (out of State) corporate chain with a profit motive. They market a feel-good shopping experience and the convenience of the prepared food "stations." Safeway is an (in-state) corporate chain with a profit motive. If you've checked out the new Safeways, like the one by the CalTrain station, you can't help but notice that they've taken to mimicking the same experience. At first glance you can't tell if you have walked in to a WF or a Safeway unless you check the sign over the door. As Whole Foods drifts toward the lowest common denominator, Safeway is expanding its gourmet, organic and "natural" offerings and improving its amenities, in effect raising the lowest common denominator. Before long, the two chains will be all but indistinguishable in market areas like SOMA, and shopping decisions will be made on the very factors you mentioned, not on how the experience is branded. Link: http://eatingchinese.org Sat Sep 03 10:52:34 -0700 2005 1673771 0 Gary Soup 2 1673779 Making a profit is not an evil endeavor, as you imply. You might consider taking an introductory economics course. Sat Sep 03 11:32:43 -0700 2005 1673777 0 GooGLeR 3 1673782 Oh here we go again. Did you notice that the point of Gary's post was that one profit making company was going downhill while another seemed to be raising it's level. If there was a differentiation, it was in-state vs. out-of-state. You might consider taking an introductory english comprehension course. Profit isn't evil, but evil people can make lots of it taking advantage of others. Caveat emptor, an informed citizenry..., and all that... That's all we're doing here, informing each other (the chow citizenry). Sat Sep 03 14:36:34 -0700 2005 1673779 0 applehome 4 1673802 You are exactly right. The New York Times had an article recently in which they called Costco the Anti-Walmart's. The article quoted a financial analyist who complained, with some bitterness, that they treated their employees and customers better than their stockholders. Thinking as a consumer, you can't have blind spots about a company's motivations, regardless of the cloak they wrap themselves in. Sat Sep 03 20:27:44 -0700 2005 1673782 0 Gary Soup 2 1673794 I found your comments v. interesting. I hardly ever go to my local Safeway anymore (Marina, what I used to call the "jewel in Safeway's crown"). One by one it's dropped products I used to make a special trip for (fat-free Knudsen sour cream, the best-tasting to me of all such items, jumps to mind, but there are lots of others, mostly reduced- or non-fat; it was as if overnight someone decided to cut that category to the bone a few years ago). And time and again it would be out of, say, the cat litter I made a special trip for. The organic produce is more a gesture than anything else--usually packaged, not price competitive. I started shopping at Cal-Mart for regular (non health food store) stuff, even though it's a bit more expensive. It seems to carry everything, small as it is. The Albertson's that went into the place of the greatly missed Petrini Plaza in SF I found deplorable: High prices, dreadful, unSan Francisco-looking produce, really like shopping in another state with different culinary attitudes and standards. Sat Sep 03 18:01:57 -0700 2005 1673777 0 Fine 2 1675052 Here in Calfornia, where Safeway operate's Von's markets, their "best" stores are being retrofitted a la WF by turning out or dimming the ceiling lights and lighting the produce and other non-aisle areas with boutique spot-lighting. I walked in and thought I had on my sunglasses! I sure wouldn't try to buy produce or meat under that kind of lighting! WF is rumored to be trying to move into (SLO) town, and the new Costco must be giving all the grocers fits! I wonder if all the customers who wouldn't cross the picket lines during the recent long, hard checker's strike are now buying at Costco and not realizing they're hurting the locally-owned (non-public traded) groceries like Scolari's and Spencer's to whom they flocked during the strike?! h-m-m-m. I'm sticking with Spencer's. Tue Sep 27 14:54:43 -0700 2005 1673777 0 toodie jane 1 1673786 Have you considered dropping the "organic" requirement? I suspect that the human lifespan is, at best, too short to show much effect from any chemicals tested for agriculture (many people disagree, but for the most part I don't see people dying in the streets from anything other than lifestyle, accident or old age) Even if you choose organic for what you judge to be the most dangerous of non-organic foods, the "whole foods" marketing industry is just one more way to separate you from your money - buy in season directly at organic farms, if you can, but "Whole Foods" Incorporated? It fails in every way you have enumerated (including treating workers like they should be treated). People have been sold that "every meal must be balanced, and you need every morsel as pure and chemical-free as possible." My son was diagnosed with a condition which inhibits his uptake of nutrients from what he consumes. Lost 1/6 of his body weight before we figured it out. Gastroenterologist (no, not an "alternative" weirdo) said (after giving him some meds to calm his system) to let him eat anything he could tolerate - LOTS of it - until he got his weight back up. I asked if he needed to consider a "balanced diet". Answer: later, but not right now. 15-pound box of bacon did the trick. I asked "if he's keeping the food down, is he getting the nutrients he needs, regardless of balance?" Answer: Yes, but a daily vitamin would ensure that. Later, when he's stable, we should try to see that he gets a full range of foods (that his system won't reject), but not every meal has to have an ideal balance - I should just strive for variety and things would work out. I asked about the rest of the family. Doctor said that the same principle would serve us fine in daily life (plus I gotta get off my chair and exercise). Food is not poison, food is not medicine, food is what you need to keep going. Sat Sep 03 17:18:47 -0700 2005 1673771 0 Wayne Keyser 2 1673790 I'm glad your son is improving. I'd like to add "Food is joy" to your list. When we bought our little house with a little backyard 20 years ago and taught ourselves to garden, we saw firsthand what it would take to destroy various bugs and conditions with pesticides and started to learn about what else we could do. We liked the idea of being able to reach out and grab a leaf of roquette, a tomato, a fraise des bois, etc., and pop it into our mouths. We also liked not worrying about harming our or our neighbors' pets, any wildlife, etc. We started thinking about farmworkers--some of the hardest working, most useful individuals in our labor force and whether or not we wanted to continue to support their exposure to pesticides. We thought also about the water table, wildlife, kids of farmworkers, air polllution, etc. Our decision was to buy organic produce whenever we could manage to. If I had kids, I'd feed them organic to be on the safe side. At my age, I agree it propbably won't make a large difference, if any. But I try to live responsibly as I define it. Sat Sep 03 17:38:50 -0700 2005 1673786 0 Fine 3 1673796 I agree with you. Living in a farming community, one suddenly gains a whole new appreciation for food grown organically. While the haze of pesticides can make for a beautiful sunrise or sunset, I somehow doubt if it's good for breathing or long-range health. Sat Sep 03 18:13:56 -0700 2005 1673790 0 e.d. 3 1673891 I agree -- I prefer to buy organic because it's better for farmworkers, farming communities, and the planet in general. Of course, I'm only feeding myself, not teenagers, so the increased cost is not terribly important. But even then, the US has the lowest ratio of food costs to income in the world -- most of us could afford to pay a little more for our food and stop encouraging agribusiness to use unsustainable practices to produce more poor-quality food than Americans can consume (last I heard it was an excess of 500 calories per American per day in surplus food production). Tue Sep 06 15:50:57 -0700 2005 1673790 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1673801 Howdy hounds! Sorry to interrupt, but parts of this thread has started to veer of into Not About Food territory. Please continue to discuss what items are good at Whole Foods and how to go about getting them, but for other tangential topics such as health issues related to organic foods, employment practices etc.. please continue on Not About Food. Very much appreciated! Sat Sep 03 20:23:38 -0700 2005 1673771 2 The Chowhound Team 1 1673819 I love WF but rarely shop there because the prices are very prohibitive and I can get organic and non organic veggies for less money elswhere. I have noticed that Safeway carries Bob's Red Mill, perhaps you should check to see if they have it or would carry it if you put in an order. Also, the Nob Hill stores are owned by the Raley's /Bel Air markets and they are very customer service oriented when it comes to ordering items. My DH's grandparents used to special order things from Safeway and Bel Air quite frequently and I believe one of the products, a multigrain cereal, was made by Bob's Red Mill. As for the discount I'd tell them that WF gives a discount for buying a large quantity, maybe they'll be interested in getting your business. I know it is a hassle going to one store for one product but if you can do it with less hassle then it might be better in the long run. Lastly, if you want a natural foods store to be more interested in its customers needs then you might consider joining a natural foods co-op. Sun Sep 04 14:39:27 -0700 2005 1673771 0 Tracy L 1 1673851 that's too bad about your whole foods experience. i lived in ann arbor, michigan for awhile where we have a very gorgeous whole foods. i honestly have never had a bad experience there. the employees are incredibly and helpful and knowledgeable. the sales there are incredible. i never had a negative experience and i shopped there i guess once a week for about two years. this rant on the sf whole foods scares me as im making it my place of residency come january. i agree with the gripe on how little organic produce they offer there. as a store that champions the organic lifestyle, their lack of organics in the produce section is very shocking. oh well, i ususlaly stick to farmers market produce, anyways. however,t he ann arbor wf bought a lot of their produce from local farms as i understand it. Mon Sep 05 13:27:11 -0700 2005 1673771 0 violet 2 1673852 It depends on which SF Whole Foods you go to. With the reference to Rainbow, I'm guessing this is the Whole Foods on 4th. I find the service lacking there also. I haven't had a problem with the Whole Foods on California where I shopped for years. That being said, I rarely bought their produce which is very over-priced and not as good as other area markets. I like their meat and prepared food section though. It's usually where I buy my holiday turkey. I like their bakery too. While they don't treat the cheese as carefully as they should, it's probably one of the better supermarket cheese selections in town. Nice flowers too. Yeah, I like that WF. I just always need to brace myself for the yuppie-factor when I go. Nasty little self-centered yuppies. Probably just jeolosy since I aspired once to be a nasty, self-centered yuppie. Didn't make the yuppie part. The Fourth Street location has the best prepared food station with dim sum, indian food, Mexican, etc in addition to the regular deli. When you get to SF do a post on the best local markets (there are some good ones) and farmers markets (there are some great ones). Regarding that Safeway on Fourth Street near the train staion ... never ... NEVER shop there. It is the worst Safeway I have ever set foot in in ALL aspects from the selection to the horrid ... horrid staff. Like Gary mentioned some of the area Safeways are doing some nominal upgrading. There is a Safeway in Fremont that could give a bad Whole Foods a run for its money. They even have a cheese counter with wheels of good cheese where they will cut samples to taste. Since the new Safeway on Fourth is in the toney ... well, tonier SOMA area, I had high hopes. It is like shopping in a third world Safeway. Ok, I exaggerate, but only slightly. I can't relate the story on this board that just turned my stomach in the way they treated someone (not me) but I see no reason to ever go there again. I am guessing that Gary never bought anything at either Safeway or Whole Foods ... at least Whole Foods. Sure, there are certain copy-cat aspects in terms of having an olive bar or a bigger prepared food section in upgraded Safeways. But with the exception of the cheese department in Fremont, it is just Safeway quality food in a different setting. There are Safeway donuts in that bakery section, and generic cold cuts in the sandwich bar no matter what fancy name they give it. Soup bar, yeah, well ... still canned soup. It is like a oridanry girl gussied up with some makeup. And before anyone jumps on that sentence, I am an orginary girl that occasionally gussies up with makeup. I know my own kind. Mon Sep 05 14:09:53 -0700 2005 1673851 0 rworange 3 1673864 thanks so much for that informative post, rworange. im probably going to end up printing this out and taking it with me. i'm glad to hear not all wf in san francisco are so dire, i really had high hopes for them in an area with such a high standard for chow. Mon Sep 05 23:35:33 -0700 2005 1673852 0 violet 3 1673866 Sorry--I thought I'd mentioned it was the Franklin/California store in my original post, but I see I didn't. Haven't been to the newer one. As for Rainbow, I make a trip there every couple of weeks, at least, even though it's about 1 1/2 miles farther from home than WF. I also shop at Real Food, which has been around a long time and--the one on Polk--took a terrible hit when WF opened a few years ago. Tue Sep 06 06:55:11 -0700 2005 1673852 0 Fine