300577 Wed Jul 20 09:07:14 -0700 2005 35 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1671342 Today I had lunch at a (previously, at least) favorite sit-down Mexican restaurant. It has an extensive, and seemingly authentic menu. I was there a little late, so the place wasn't crowded, but every one who was there seemed to be speaking Spanish. I happened to pick up a Spanish-language newsletter as I walked in, (and I'm sure the waiter saw me reading it) and spoke to the waiter in Spanish (practicing for a trip to Central America tomorrow). I ordered the lunch special: Chicken enchiladas; a bargain at 4.95 with rice and beans. Imagine my disappointment to find my chicken enchiladas smothered in gloppy, melted monterrey jack cheese. The verde sauce on the enchiladas was good, and not excessive, but they were ruined by that cheese. I have eaten a lot of chicken enchiladas in Mexico, and never were they served with so much cheese (and in Mexico, the cheese on enchiladas will be minimal, and usually of a crumbly variety....)....so my point is this: do they make all their enchiladas this way, or did the waiter somehow signal to the chef that a gringoized version was in order??? I can't believe that they would have served such a gloppy dish to the Mexicans sitting at the table next to me....they were obviously regulars and might be inclined to not come back if thats what they were served. So what does it take to avoid this kind of thing??? I feel like I would be insulting the chef if I asked for them to make my dish "authentico"? Would just asking for "No cheese, please" have done the trick? Should I just use the chowhound passport even though I speak the language ?? Your thoughts, please, if you've stayed with me this long..... Wed Jul 20 09:07:14 -0700 2005 0 janet of reno 1 1671343 IMO, they just make lousy enchiladas. I've eaten at quite a few Latino places both in the country and out and have never had a dumbed down dish. Ya know, with Latino's in this country I wouldn't pull out the old chow passport, especially when ordering enchiladas. I might save that for out of country dining. Central America? Cool. Hope you post your experiences on the International Board. I may be going down to Guatamala within the next year and it seems my inlaws travel a lot through the various neighboring regions. Wed Jul 20 09:07:42 -0700 2005 1671342 0 rworange 2 1671384 I agree... I'm mexican myself and always order in Spanish and I still make it clear what is in the dish when there is no clear description (I recently went to a great mexican run taco stand where they sprinkled shreeded yellow cheese on certain dishes! ICK!!!). Also, I never order Enchiladas anywhere unless it's a special version (Such as with Mole or Pipian) because it's SUCH a generic/safe dish that odds are that will be gringoized no matter where you go. Instead, I order dishes from that particular region the restaurant is trying to represent, something a little more advanced or with a special ingredient (Because I can make Enchiladas at home no problem!) or ask the waiter what the specials are... I do the same at all other ethnic restaurants as well... I'm there for an adventure after all! :) --Dommy! Wed Jul 20 14:33:18 -0700 2005 1671343 0 Dommy! 3 1671406 several of you have mentioned that you just don't order enchiladas in restaurants, because its too likely to be americanized....well, that may be true, but a girl can dream, can't she? I think I pointed out in my original post that one reason I chose them was because they were on special, and a bargain. Besides, enchiladas may be fairly easy to make at home, but I'm sure you will agree that it is HOT work, and there is no way in my unairconditioned kitchen in triple digit temps I was going to make enchiladas yesterday.......so the restaurant version was the only way to satisfy a craving..... Wed Jul 20 18:32:59 -0700 2005 1671384 0 janet of reno 4 1671434 A special doesn't mean "special and therefor wonderful", it means "cheap at the market and have too much of". What a lot of fuss over nothing. Thu Jul 21 01:58:40 -0700 2005 1671406 0 Kitchenette 1 1671348 That same issue sounds like what Asian restaurants have been doing for years as well. Americanized versions of dishes that will sell better here. Wed Jul 20 10:25:48 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Tugboat 2 1671417 Could be. I do find it interesting that most of the replies just say 'enchiladas are lousy, get over it', some even with an attitude (to the poster who asked Janet if she was trying to be cool, ummm...I felt that was really not warranted, unless you meant literally cool in the hot weather. Granted I do have a bias since Janet is a (very) close family member, but where does that come from? I must defend the family honor and say that the last thing Janet cares about is being perceived of as cool. She was looking for Chow, good chow and aren't we all!!?!)... but I digress. One sees lots of posts about how to get 'the real thing' at Asian restaurants, how to get truly spicy food, how to convince the waiters that you aren't too Americanized for dishes on the 'secret' Chinese menus, etc., and yet most posters don't seem to believe that such exists in Mexican restaurants and cuisine. Just an observation. btw, Janet: my strategy in a Mexican restaurant where I want to branch beyond tacos but am not sure of the caliber/authencity of the food, is to order soup. I can't recall ever getting soup in a Mexican restaurant that I didn't like. (this place doesn't have albondigas by any chance does it?). I realize that does you know good when the weather is 105 outside. I feel your pain and thank the weather gods that I live in San Francisco! :-) Wed Jul 20 20:39:52 -0700 2005 1671348 0 susancinsf 3 1671450 Actually, at the taquerias out here in Livermore, where it's been at or above 100 every day the last couple weeks, I've noticed more people slurping soup than any time before. Don't know if it's for the liquid, or to make you sweat, but soup is hot right now. Thu Jul 21 11:03:04 -0700 2005 1671417 0 Shep 1 1671365 Is this really about the food or did you want to be noticed as someone in the club, someone who's much cooler than the ordinary Anglo? Next time, ask them to skip the cheese, please. Maybe the regulars like the gloppy cheese, maybe they never order the specials. Maybe the waiter thought your accent wasn't authentic. Wed Jul 20 12:38:20 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Kitchenette 1 1671385 Were other (Hispanic) people in the restaurant eating enchiladas? And if so, were they gloppy? I have to be honest, I would tend to say that Vicente Fox himself probably would have got gloppy enchiladas from that place... enchiladas are almost always horrible at restaurants. Also, the way to "gringo-ise" an enchilada is to put tasteless sauce on it, not to put weird cheese on it. Wed Jul 20 14:41:19 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Das Ubergeek 1 1671386 With all due respect, I think you're being a bit paranoid in thinking that your enchiladas were loaded w/ cheese b/c you are a gringo. From my experience, enchiladas tend to have quite a bit of melted cheese (often times a white cheese like jack) on top to the point that you can lift the whole congealed mass off (ew). That's why I rarely order them, unless of course, I'm craving some tortilla w/ my cheese. I wouldn't write this restaurant off based on this one experience if you've liked other things in the past. Next time, just stay away from the enchiladas or ask for no or less cheese if you must. I also wouldn't be surprised if some native Mexicans like their enchiladas that way. My parents grew up in Vietnam and their preferred banh mi place is Lee's, so go figure. Wed Jul 20 14:48:31 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Carb Lover 2 1671405 with all due respect, enchiladas in Mexico usually do NOT have much, if any cheese, and as I said before, if they do it is usually crumbly. The gobs of white jack-type cheese we both mentioned is an americanized version of enchilada. And that was my point: the people who run this restaurant come from Mexico; I think they know this. All I'm looking for is an enchilada that does not cater to americanized tastes...... Wed Jul 20 18:28:09 -0700 2005 1671386 0 janet of reno 3 1671411 I understand that enchiladas in Mexico don't have much cheese, and if they do, it's not jack. But you're not in Mexico...you're in Reno. Just b/c the owners are originally from Mexico and the clientele is mostly of Mexican descent, doesn't automatically mean you're going to get an "authentic" version. (I personally don't even know what "authentic", "real", "gringo", or "non-gringo" really means in the US context anymore.) Sure, the chances for getting something resembling an enchilada in Mexico are greater at a place like that, and I understand why you might have been surprised, but your assumptions were proven wrong and now you know better about how this one place serves their enchiladas. If you would have liked the enchilada fine w/o the cheese, then just ask for it that way next time. No biggie. Who knows, maybe they gave you the "gringo" version, but once you tell them to hold the cheese, they'll know you prefer otherwise. Wed Jul 20 19:30:07 -0700 2005 1671405 0 Carb Lover 4 1671464 Does any one, anywhere, actually say "gringo"? Anglo is the preferred term. No one Latino under the age of 60 knows what a gringo is. Thu Jul 21 13:16:40 -0700 2005 1671411 0 Kitchenette 5 1671471 In my experience in California and Mexico, Mexican waitstaff can call an 'Anglo' be called three things... but NEVER use the word, "Anglo" (I'm a Spanish Language Media Executive and that word is banded from our lexicon as well...) * Gringo, I hear it all the time, but is used just when speaking among other mexicans and ALWAYS in a negative way... *Guerro, a much nicer 'teasing' way of saying Gringo. Depending on the casualness and comfort of the waitstaff, they may even call you this. Beck's new Album is called this because he spent some time in the Eastside of L.A. while working on it, and I bet, he got called this several times a day... LOL! * Americano, the formal way of saying 'Anglo'. Is not meant to offend. My brother is a bit more fair than I am and doesn't speak Spanish... So when I order his food, BLAZING hot, the waitstaff sometimes has takes a pause and asks, "Tu companero no es Americano!?". (Is your friend here not white?!) --Dommy! Thu Jul 21 14:05:59 -0700 2005 1671464 0 Dommy! 6 1671486 Thanks for your input, Dommy! The adaptation comment that you made above regarding the cheese makes perfect sense. Things change when people change their environment and need to (and sometimes want to) adapt. It can be very limiting IMO when you expect something that you ate in Mexico a while ago to be replicated exactly in Reno today. It would be nice and certainly is possible and by all means seek it out, but don't rule out other variations or call them "inauthentic" or automatically conclude "gringoization." How can a dish in the US not be "Americanized" in some way? My Vietnamese mom lives in a predominately White (European-American would be the more PC term used in my profession), rural community and makes her favorite dishes using what she can find for good value. She also adapts new practices that she thinks are healthier, like using olive oil in some of her cooking. She also started adding jicama to her spring rolls for a while, but then decided it wasn't as good. Whatever...I'll happily eat it!!! When I go out to a Viet restaurant, I worry more about the freshness and flavor than whether it matches my mom's cooking exactly or whether it tastes just like what I ate in Vietnam or read about in a book. Sure, I compare and take note of differences but try to experience it for what it is first. If it's horrible, then it's just horrible, and nothing more to me. I also don't care one bit about quickly unlocking "secret menus" at restaurants. If I like the baseline food enough and they treat me right, then I'll stick around for more and get acquainted w/ nuances. You won't catch me ever using the Chowhound passport b/c that's just not my style of "getting in." If others use it and like it, then great! If I miss a morsel of deliciousness b/c of that stance or pass up a "hidden gem", then so be it. To Kitchenette: I think many people in the US of young and old generally *know* what gringo is, but don't really say it publicly unless among close friends. Kinda like other derogatory terms out there that we all know about. As Dommy! notes, it's always used as a negative among people she knows. I personally never used the term at all til I entered Chowhound and saw it used as accepted jargon (ie, no one jumps down your throat, mods don't delete) to generally represent an "outsider." This doesn't have to be in a Mexican restaurant but Thai, Chinese, Indian, etc. Like I said above, I don't even know what it quite means when people use it in the US context, but I personally don't focus on such things when I eat out b/c it feels too self-conscious and not about paying attention to the food in front of me. Hmmm...looks like Janet's rant evolved into my rant. Not meant as a personal attack on Janet or anyone else; I have "isshas" since this topic hits personal and professional buttons. Thanks for letting me vent. Thu Jul 21 16:03:21 -0700 2005 1671471 0 Carb Lover 6 1671527 interesting, so at that restaurant there is an expectation/assumption that los guerros will want a different level of heat? Fri Jul 22 00:41:09 -0700 2005 1671471 0 susancinsf 7 1671544 As Christina points out, the word is guero with one r. I really need a trip to Mexico para practicar! Fri Jul 22 12:19:31 -0700 2005 1671527 0 susancinsf 8 1671552 LOL! Me too evidently... I've been relying on MS Word en Espanol here at work a bit too much lately! :) Anyway, I should have been a bit more clear in my post, as per my VERY original post in this topic, I always ask what is in a dish and always make 'requests', in my situations it mostly requests to increase heat to the dishes. Since my brother and grew up with Habaneros in the back yard, what is standard hot in Mexico, is NOT nearly as hot as we desire it. Further, while heat is usually added on to dishes while they are cooking heat can also be added on later through the request of fresh chiles (Take a bite of a dish, then take a bite out of the chile) and of course various salsas. Even the laziest taco stand is likely to have at least two salsas, and odds are one will be hotter than the other... so everytime we go anywhere we always ask for their hottest salsa... and that is where they get the surprise. Not many of their Latino clientele demand the hottest salsa or a handful of chile seranos, much less a fair, green eyed Mexican like my Bro... --Dommy! Fri Jul 22 12:52:26 -0700 2005 1671544 0 Dommy! 6 1671530 I live in Guadalajara, as most everybody on CH knows by now, and am constantly distressed and enormously puzzled by the insistence of people who move here from North of the Border upon referring to themselves as *gringos*. Here in Mexico, that word is at best extremely pejorative. To refer to North of the Border types living here, the preferred usage is *extranjero*, i.e., foreigner. "Aunque el señor es extranjero, come más chile que los mexicanos." 'Although that man is a foreigner, he eats more chile than the Mexicans.' Y Dommy, la palabra es ¡güero! Fri Jul 22 01:34:04 -0700 2005 1671471 0 Cristina 7 1671547 Ack! Thanks Cristina, I'm here in L.A. typing a mile a minute with people constantly come in and out my office and no idea how to get accents on this message board (Hence even my english is awful mangled) I joke with people on the L.A. board, I speak two languages, but I'm a master at none... In Mexico, I've heard "extranjero" before, but perhaps because I come from the U.S. I've heard Americano a little bit more. Especially when I've brought white friends from the U.S. over to visit. In the U.S., since they aren't foriegners here that is what I hear most often as the 'formal' way to say it... When my grandmother (A very formal lady) talks to people about all her grandchildren, and of course, the first ones that are mentions are the ones that are married, she always discribes my cousin as "...esta casado con un Americano..." --Dommy! Fri Jul 22 12:38:25 -0700 2005 1671530 0 Dommy! 8 1671577 Mija, vente a tu tierra a relajarte un ratito. La vida de allá es pura locura. And yes, a lot of people here say the same thing your grandmother says: "Está casada con un americano." Mucho depende, ¿verdad? Fri Jul 22 16:35:54 -0700 2005 1671547 0 Cristina 9 1671582 Ay...No me digas... That reminds me of a joke... A retired American CEO stopped his Yacht on the coast of a small town in Baja one morning after a long and sucessful Albacore expedition. As he stepped off his big boat, he saw a Mexican fisherman was carrying two large tuna from his small little boat and to his little shack right on the beach. The CEO stopped the Mexican, "Excuse me, is that all you caught today?" "Yes, this is all I need, one will go to my family and the other I will sell" "But, if you spend more time at sea, perhaps to catch more, then you could sell the rest and make more money" "Perhaps, but then what?" "And then in a few years, you can buy a bigger boat and catch even more tuna!" "And then what?" "And then, in a few years, you can buy another big boat and hire people to catch the tuna for you" "And then what?" "And then in a few years you can start your own Tuna processing plant!" "And then what?" "And then, in a few years you can sell the company and retire to a beach home in Mexico where you can spend all day relaxing and fishing!" -Dommy! Fri Jul 22 17:07:13 -0700 2005 1671577 0 Dommy! 4 1671473 "Just b/c the owners are originally from Mexico and the clientele is mostly of Mexican descent, doesn't automatically mean you're going to get an "authentic" version." GREAT general point, we see it all the time in all sorts of cuisines!! Specifically to the cheese issue, Mexican cheeses can be hard to find in volume and can be much more pricy and fussy than the generic pre shredded last forever institutional shredded cheese. I'm sure the family would LOVE to replicate the dishes they might serve at home, but in a cost and volume perspective, it maybe inpossible for them to do it in their casual value restaurant... --Dommy! Thu Jul 21 14:16:46 -0700 2005 1671411 0 Dommy! 5 1671528 I thought a big part of Janet's rant was that there too much cheese period, so that could only be a partial explanation at most (if it isn't good and expensive, maybe less would be more). However, I do agree that the different availability of ingredients would be an issue in the US as opposed to in Mexico. OTOH, several folks made mention of Reno in a way that may have implied that it was sort of the sticks gastronomically. In some respects that may be true, but when it comes to Mexican food it certainly can hold its own against the SF bay area.... Fri Jul 22 00:57:33 -0700 2005 1671473 0 susancinsf 6 1671531 Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that Reno was in "the sticks" and couldn't possibly have great Mexican food. I just meant to say that anywhere in the US (in Janet's case it happens to be Reno) is not Mexico. If Janet lived in LA or SF, my comments would still stand. Fri Jul 22 01:49:56 -0700 2005 1671528 0 Carb Lover 7 1671548 Thank you for the clarification. But since you referred to LA and SF: would you make the same statement that food in those areas just couldn't be as good if we were talking about Chinese or Asian cuisines? Would you also say about Chinese food, as I think you are saying about Mexican if I don't misunderstand you, that techniques and ingredients in LA and SF cannot be expected to be the same as in the 'home' country? I know you said the issue pushed some buttons for you, and I am not trying to be argumentative, though I didn't really understand from your post what those buttons were. However, I am curious, because I have held the belief for a while now, which this thread does nothing to diminish, that for some reason Mexican food in California is held to a different standard than Asian food in California. Our expectations, including the expectations of those that call ourselves Chowhounds, just seems to be lower, and that expectation is founded in reality. Several examples: One poster mention the inavailability of ingredients. Seems that is more true of Mexican food than of Chinese. Look at the diversity of foods available in Chinatown, and yet forget about finding true bolillos in the Mission. Anther example: There are a number of upscale Chinese restaurants in the bay area; yet I can count the number of upscale Mexican places on one hand. Finally, as other posters have of course pointed out, there are tremendous and wonderful regional differences in cuisines from various parts of Mexico (just as there are wonderful variations in Asian cooking from region to region), yet most people in the United States know little or nothing about those regional differences. Indeed, I would be willing to bet that if we got a group of Hounds together and quized them that their level of collective knowledge of differences in Mexican regional cuisines would be less than their knowledge of Chinese regional cuisines. This wouldnt be surprising at all, since we have regional Asian, particularly Chinese restaurants, but we don't have many Mexican restaurants focused on particular regions, apart from places serving dishes from the Yucatan. Indeed, everytime I've gone with a group of the Hounds to Fruitvale there is this discussion (moaning actually) about the lack of even one really good Oaxacan restaurant... I find this particularly interesting and even puzzling given the number of Mexican immigrants and people of Mexican descent in CA, the proximity of our countries, and the fact that so many recent Mexican immigrants work in the restaurant industry. (Unless of course it is a reflection of low wages in that industry, which certainly must be part of the issue). Economic reality, perhaps? Something else? Anyway, am curious about yours and others thoughts. Fri Jul 22 12:44:00 -0700 2005 1671531 0 susancinsf 8 1671554 VERY interesting thoughts... Aside from my original point that the ingredients, in bulk can be more expensive and harder to find that standard 'make due' smart and final ingredients. There is also the factor of how the cuisines were first embraced in our country... The fact is, the notion of going out to a nice Chinese food restaurant has been around for quite a while. (While that notion has somewhat been dampered by the creation of fast food chinese) I don't think the same notion could have really ever been said about Mexican food... Instead, going out for Mexican I think has been associated more with a fun thing... As for finding regional/special dishes... yes it can be hard. But again, perhaps it's the advantage of being Latina and speaking spanish, but I often ask the waitstaff where they are 'from' (This is a very common ice breaker question among Latinos, we are all very proud of our origin be it particular Mexican states or other countries in Latin America). Then I ask if there is a special dish from Jalisco or whatever they say from on the menu... And if they don't, sometimes, they will be HAPPY to request that the kitchen make me a dish in that 'style'... I do think with the changing demographics in this country, that we will start seeing more and more of these speciality mexican restaurant sprout up all over (My friend in Utah even has a very nice Mexican restaurant that serves all sorts of different Moles!). And the best thing you can do as a hound now, is when you go to a place, ask questions about the food and encourage! I do it all the time, even when I go to fancy places (Lots of waiters have BIG dreams after all! :)) --Dommy! Fri Jul 22 13:18:14 -0700 2005 1671548 0 Dommy! 8 1671557 I should clarify that "pushing my buttons" translates into "cross-cultural issues get me excited/excitable" as opposed to "this topic pisses me off." That was also meant to imply that my comments were getting more general and moving away from Janet's specific situation. I appreciate your comments, and I would agree that many people (including myself) know very little about the regional differences in Mexican cuisine. In my case, that also applies to many Asian cuisines, even from my home country of Vietnam. There are so many nuances out there to learn and this is where traveling is key IMO. Your comments are great food for thought for me, but I don't have anything cogent to really add right now since my brain is too scattered. I do want to clarify that I never meant to say that one can't reproduce food from one country in another or that one shouldn't seek out a certain quality while chowhounding. What I was really trying to respond to in Janet's original post pertains more to assumptions and attributions on her part that I thought were problematic which led to her disappointment and rant. I need a margarita now...cheers. Fri Jul 22 13:37:39 -0700 2005 1671548 0 Carb Lover 8 1671578 I think there has been reasonable discussion on the LA Board about some of the varieties of Mexican cuisine: Yucatecan, Oaxacan, tacos estilla Baja, Poblano. Sure, there is still a ways to go and I think that reflects two things: a good percentage of the posters live and look for recs on the Westside, which is not where you're going to find much regional Mexican cuisine, and, with the exception of Dommy, I don't recall too many CHers identifying themselves as Mexican. As opposed to the large number of Asian posters. I had lunch in a large family-style Mexican restaurant in Long Beach today. An overwhelming majority of patrons were Hispanic and not only did they serve melty jack cheese on everyone's enchiladas and the "wet" burritos, but that's also how the enchiladas and the burritos were pictured in the menu. My oldest brother used to live in Oakland and I recall a fair number of regional Mexican opportunities there. Fri Jul 22 16:36:41 -0700 2005 1671548 0 Christine 9 1671591 I've not been able to find much if anything from Oaxaca or Pueblo, for example, even in the Fruitvale district. If your brother remembers any such options, please ask if he can share! Fri Jul 22 20:09:47 -0700 2005 1671578 0 susancinsf 1 1671414 I just asked two Mexican friends about enchiladas with jack cheese and they were all thumbs up. Will you get them this way in Mexico? No. In Michoacan, for example, enchiladas are stacked flat, like pancakes. In the US, unless they're made with mole and topped with cotija, you usually get melted cheese. I like 'em all. Wed Jul 20 20:02:55 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Christine 2 1671416 Not sure I understand your answer: you say they are thumbs up and yet you won't get them this way? Guess I am confused: are you saying your Mexican friends would like them with more cheese than they get them at home? Wed Jul 20 20:27:52 -0700 2005 1671414 0 susancinsf 3 1671419 Sorry, I understand your confusion. The Mexican friends (here in LA) love the gooey melty cheese topping. It's a small sampling, I know, but they don't worry about whether an enchilada is made to mimic what they grew up with. They know where to get food cooked the way they grew up with (here in LA). The point to the OP is that she probably got exactly the same thing that any Mexican ordering the same dish would have gotten. Wed Jul 20 21:03:12 -0700 2005 1671416 0 Christine 1 1671427 Your case would be proven if other (Mexican) patrons were getting enchiladas topped with queso fresco or cojita, but nowhere in your post do you mention that so I'd be hesitant to think that the kitchen gringo-ized your dish. Having gone to many Mexican restaurants in Mexican neighborhoods here in the Bay Area, with gringos and with Hispanics, I'll say that from my experience enchiladas are nearly always melted cheese bombs, even when there are many authentic dishes on the menu that gringos shy away from. Even having a regional slant doesn't mean that "safe" Mex-Am "standards" won't be served. BTW, the last time I was in Reno (years ago), I was told that Beto's was the only real game in town and sure enough the sopes were excellent. Is there more competition now? Wed Jul 20 22:54:32 -0700 2005 1671342 0 mty 1 1671525 Mexico is a diverse country. Each state has their own way of making the food. Many areas even call things by different names. It is do hard to say something is authentic or not. Many Mexican people have never heard of Mole Negro or Huitlacoche or Loganitza or Pampazo or Sincronisadas or Molotes. I have been to many places that refer to sauteed dishes as Enchilado or Enchilada depending on what is being cooked. Who is to say what is authentic. Thu Jul 21 23:04:41 -0700 2005 1671342 0 Just Larry