299962 Fri Mar 11 02:18:50 -0800 2005 33 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1664624 At Campton Place in San Francisco, I was served an amuse bouche that consisted of a raw chicken egg yolk topped with sea urchin roe and osetra caviar. What do you think about this? Would you like it? My reaction was that I didn't like it at all (nor did my dining companion), but I'm interested in your thoughts. The whole meal is discussed on the SF board if you want to see it. Fri Mar 11 02:18:50 -0800 2005 0 eel 1 1664631 I found that Swedes were rather fond of raw egg yolk plonked on top of whatever. I'm just too squeamish for that. I'm really not sure which would be worse, that raw egg yolk or the olive oil ice cream with a cured sardine. I think I would have nightmares for a long time after that meal. Fri Mar 11 07:33:46 -0800 2005 1664624 0 Athena 1 1664644 Not only would I have eaten it, I would have asked for your portion as well. Fri Mar 11 10:44:27 -0800 2005 1664624 0 Eric Eto 1 1664655 sounds like the kithchen is trying to be just a little too creative. Fri Mar 11 12:10:37 -0800 2005 1664624 0 bob 1 1664658 I think it would depend upon the overall size of the bite, the ratio of ingredients, and how it was served. There's a sushi item that I really like. A "battleship" style piece is fill with Tobiko (roe) and topped with a raw quail egg. It's easy to pick up the sushi and eat the whole thing in one bite. The egg is a small (yet vital) fraction of the total mass of food. Great dish. The dish you described seems like it would fail on all accounts. If would work if it could be easily eaten in one bite, served perhaps in an Asian soup spoon to be slurped out instead of on a plate and requiring a fork. And a chicken yolk might just be too big and overwhelm the other ingredients. Fri Mar 11 12:22:16 -0800 2005 1664624 0 nja 1 1664669 At Wa Sushi in Los Angeles the Matsuhisa-alum chef serves a delicious "amuse" of delicate mozuku seaweed topped with a quail egg and ponzu sauce. An incredibly subtle, refined dish. And delicious. For someone named "eel," why so squeemish about a little raw egg? ;) (the Wa dish resembled this, but in a tall shot glass:) Image: http://www.oishi-mise.com/aphoto/mozuku.jpg Fri Mar 11 13:59:15 -0800 2005 1664624 0 Spoony Bard 2 1664672 I'll let you in on a little secret: E. E. L. are my initials and the source of my nickname (not just on Chowhound). Really, I'm not super squeemish. I'll try almost anything once (dried worms in Africa...), but I've found that there are some things I just can't eat after the first bite. (Although I wouldn't try most/all of the Fear Factor delicacies.) I did try the egg amuse. And it was not a "little raw egg." It was a honkin' big chicken yolk with nothing to offset it! A little seaweed and ponzu would have been welcome! If this sounds defensive, that's not the way it's intended. I'm laughing as I write this. e.e.l. Fri Mar 11 14:29:52 -0800 2005 1664669 0 eel 3 1664675 I'm glad you mentioned fear factor, because the menu that night sounded like something from that show. I've linked to the restaurant review on the SF Board. The menu has everything that is wrong with fine dining today. The cliches, the wierd combinations in the name of inventiveness. I started reading the review about the egg. Then I read the preceeding and following courses and it just got funnier. Anyway here's a summary of the opening dishes. Also, there was a plate of appetizers where two people had to split one oyster. My question is, can you ask for an extra oyster in a place that is so upscale? It is not like it is going to break the bank given the price of dinner. From the poster: >>> neither of us could handle the raw yolk when it spilled out of its membrane into the dish <<< No kidding. I couldn't handle that either. And what's with raw egg yolks with all the warnings about them. If you pay more, does that make them safe? A summary of the starting courses Oily fried sweetbread Olive oil ice cream topped with sardine Raw chicken egg yolk topped with sea urchin Seafood on a bed of tripe sweetbreads with foam Fois gras / raw tuna combo frog leg lollipop As I said on the SF board, this speaks of my uncouthness. Any one of these dishes would have been fine on it's own, but piled one on top of another? I think Chefs like this think they are Ferran Adriá of El Bulli ... and that is the problem I have with El Bulli, is that chefs try to emulate that concept but don't have the genius. Not that I have ever been to El Bulli, but I would go. From everything I've read about Ferran Adriá, I believe the man is sincere. I truly believe he has his own genius. But it is a concept I don't think many can emmulate. I think that when chef's try to emmulate El Bulli, they just don't get it. It is like trying to pretend you are Picasso. This isn't picking on one particular chef. They all do it. It is time for this nonsense to stop. But I guess enough people like it. Otherwise they would vote with their pocket books and not go. I know I thank the poster who probably got sucked into going to this place by positive local reviews. It was high on my list based on the press. It is really unlikely I would put out big bucks at this restuarant now. All the more food for people who appreciate this type of dining. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/34936#158741 Fri Mar 11 15:07:38 -0800 2005 1664672 0 Krys 4 1664684 You couldn't pay me to eat that dinner. Fri Mar 11 16:45:55 -0800 2005 1664675 0 Lee 4 1664685 God forbid anyone be ambitious. I have not been to Campton or El Bulli, but I find nothing offensive about chefs that push the envelope. I admire the effort, even if it fails. Chefs should be encouraged to do this, not castigated. This is especially true in SF, where the safe play is to present The Perfect Tomato, a la A. Waters. Following your logic, should every foward looking artist after picasso have painted pretty landscapes that look good in the living room? The guy is only 28. What if Humm, or someone like him, is as smart as Adria. What if the NY Times Magazine wrote up the raw egg yolk craze that started in San Francisco ten years from now like it did for Adria's foam. Would it be ok then? It's not like he's doing it to capitalize on a trend or too make money: as the review stated, there were empty tables on a Sat. night. Now this could be because the food sucked, or it could be becasue he is ahead of his clientele, but at least he is taking risks. People are insecure when they encounter something they don't like and they don't want to look provencal. I have no problem with the orignal reviewer not enjoying her meal, and I feel her pain at not liking a $400 meal. That sucks. But to say that chefs everywhere can't attempt the avant garde, and to say that people who do like this food are poseurs and lemmings, seems a little reactionary to me. I submit that the restaurant scene in San Francisco would be much smaller without this type of cooking. Fri Mar 11 16:52:21 -0800 2005 1664675 0 Thanks for Mutton 5 1664688 My disdain ... yes ... disdain ... is taking failed risks with other people's money ... and big money at that. Although I am more appreciative of the trend started by Alice Walters to use fresh organic food from local suppliers and let the ingrediants star, I have little patience for restaurants ... and there are many in SF ... that execute this badly. Alice Waters is just as much a genius in what she does as is Adria in his. And one has to be more appreciative of elevating the tomato into a memorable event (actually I learned on CH she uses some sort of special ripening boxes). It is memorable because I can remember a dish of tomatoes I had years ago in the most minute detail. This isn't about specifically Walters, Adria or even Humm. I am not trying to single him out. However, age is no excuse. Don't practice your craft on my dime ... or in this case ... ton of dimes. Chefs in Europe spend years learning their craft before they head kitchens. Don't try to be a Picasso when you can be a Matisse or a Mondrian or whoever. It is the sameness and unsuccessful imitation that annoys me. It is the trend of the month that seems to be lollipops ... a la the frog leg presentation. One restaurant has a fois gras lollipop. Someone who had it did made it seem reasonable and even delicous. I can almost buy into the fact that these upscale restaurants have the same quality suppliers and they are limited. But I do not understand the popularity of trends like lollipops. I am just not a fan of gimmacky food. I'd rather just eat a delicous dish rather than analyzing it and trying to decide if it is delicous. Like I said. To each his own. It isn't that Im not appreciative of the show at these restaurants. What bores me is that it is the same pricy show at place after place. Fri Mar 11 17:35:22 -0800 2005 1664685 0 Krys 6 1664693 I don't quite follow- you don't want the "same show place after place", but you don't want him to try "weird combinations" either. And having not eaten at el bulli or there, how do you know he is not trying to be his own "artist" rather than an adria rip off - because he uses "foam"? I see no proof of imitation (except the NAMING of one dish, and who knows if la folie or Campton or someother place came up with it first, or if its mere coincidence- eitherway, it would be hard to extrapolate the place isn't original because of the use of the descriptive word lollipop). It seems that you are more upset by the style of cooking, i.e., technique driven, "weird", or "not californian") As far as I know, adria uses space age processing and weird gases and what not. frog's legs, which to me sounds more of a retro riff on contintental, hardly seems to fit the bill. I did not mention humm's age as an excuse, but as a indication of unlimited potential which you seek to mute. But I haven't eaten at campton either, so lets keep the discussion to theory rather than the merits of raw egg yolk and caviar. Maybe Campton is a ripoff, But i think that kind of decision should be made on a case by case basis without making a blanket statement about how everyone needs to be like Alice (talk about not being original). I'm sure Ms. Water heard similiar criticism that she should be like whomever was top dawg then. As far as experimenting on your dime, i would suggest not getting the tasting menu, which is ussually the chef's most aggressive and avante stuff. (Just like a sushi restaurant, you don't get the omakasi unless you want to be exposed to new things). I presume there is an a la carte menu at a lot of these places where you can avoid frogs legs and egg yolk and tripe if you don't like them. For others who want to see what is new in the world, and don't need a guartantee that they will LOVE everything, and trust the chef, the tasting menu might offer a "weird combination" that will rock worlds. I love C.P. (the east bay one) I love Oliveto (great tripe, btw) and Manka's. But if every high end restaurant did the same thing, or had the same philosophy, then you would have something to complain about. Fri Mar 11 18:19:42 -0800 2005 1664688 0 Thanks for Mutton 7 1664723 What inspired the theme and gory detail of my original post was the fact that I came away from the meal with what was for me an unprecedented impression—that parts of it were just weirdness for weirdness’ sake and didn’t taste good to me. That impression eclipses the items that were successful. I usually get the chef’s tasting menu when I have an extravagant meal (about twice a year). I love being surprised by new ideas, ingredients, combinations. I expect that! I know I’m not going to like everything and I haven’t. It seems like there’s always one or two things that are not to my taste, but that’s out of 15 or 20 items per meal (assuming my dining companion is sharing). This meal was different. This is a hard line to draw and obviously a personal one, but some tasting menus are just better than others, and it’s not just execution in the kitchen. I’ll put it this way—based on my experiences, I’d put my dime in Ron Siegel’s hands again in a minute (where ever he’s cooking), but not Daniel Humm’s. (I hate saying that—he’s such a nice guy!) I think this discussion it great. Hopefully this kind of topic will help me chose the next place to drop my dime. Sat Mar 12 03:22:17 -0800 2005 1664693 0 eel 7 1664802 Quite eloquently put. I agree with your standpoint. Finally, restaurants and chefs are not fostered upon us; we choose to go or not go to them. Hence, we can always limit our financial risk by going only to familiar restaurants that do what we know and like and not bother with novelty. Sun Mar 13 19:56:15 -0800 2005 1664693 0 Sir Gawain 6 1664696 That egg yolk-caviar-urchin dish is probably the most "Alice Waters" of all, as it's about fresh simple ingredients. Doesn't seem to be a weird combination either, since it's been done a lot in Japanese cuisine, maybe without the urchin. I'm stilled baffled what people are so repulsed by. The yolk? After all, isn't egg yolk nature's perfect sauce? Fri Mar 11 18:38:58 -0800 2005 1664688 0 Eric Eto 7 1664722 Why yes, now that you mention it, egg yolk is nature's most perfect sauce. I personally like each of the ingredients in this dish, but I wince when I imagine them all together--the sum seems less than its parts in this case. I have a hard time believing that A. Waters would endorse or serve such a dish. I think she would do something like egg yolk w/ a special salt and toast points or caviar w/ blini and local creme fraiche, etc. Who really knows though... Sat Mar 12 01:40:22 -0800 2005 1664696 0 Carb Lover 5 1664702 Sounds like something fun to try, if you're game and yuo have the resources. There is something a bit decadent about freakishness for its own sake, but if it tastes good, it could be fun. He's not presenting himself as the guardian of an imperiled tradition. As to looking provencal, I don't mind. I'll buy a beret, try to reek of lavendar and pastis, and look askance at anyone trying to filch my calissons d'aix. Fri Mar 11 19:42:05 -0800 2005 1664685 0 Jerome 4 1664729 I don't understand your argument about artistic expression... Picasso spent hours in the Prado and came up with his own versions of Spanish masterpieces (Las Meninas, etc.). Great artists have always copied what went before and have created great movements of art by creating a common language with their contemporaries. There's nothing inherently bad about imitation. > I think Chefs like this think they are Ferran Adriá of El Bulli ... > and that is the problem I have with El Bulli, is that chefs > try to emulate that concept but don't have the genius. And how can Adria and El Bulli be held responsible for any lesser, derivative knock-offs of their work?! Should they stop innovating, researching and creating, just because someone in California might someday create misguided dish based on their extremely hard and well-thought-out work? Sat Mar 12 07:04:49 -0800 2005 1664675 0 butterfly 2 1664691 I love that dish. They also serve it plain, with chopped kiwi for the sqeamish, or with a raw oyster (my favorite), or uni (my husband's favorite.) Fri Mar 11 18:06:55 -0800 2005 1664669 0 JudiAU 1 1664671 Nothing to be squemish about. I would have loved this as i love the taste/consistency of raw egg yolk. Combined with two other things i love, sea urchin and caviar i would have loved it. As a matter of fact i like my runny egg yolk in many food s aswell. Top a burger with a quickly fried egg and let the yolk drip into the meat......mmmmmm Fri Mar 11 14:23:51 -0800 2005 1664624 0 MV 1 1664674 Hmm...raw egg with caviars . . .Sounds like what Rocky Balboa would have eaten during training for one of those later fights when he was rich and complacent . . . From the description and your reaction, I'd agree with those who say that using a chicken yolk threw the dish way out of balance--a quail or other little egg might have worked a lot better, and that sort of egg & caviar combination (consumed in one or a few little bites) can taste darned good, and for a bonus will meet the body's monthly cholesterol requirements quite efficiently. But, just imagine if they'd used a *fertile* egg instead, going for some sort of bizarro-nouvelle variation on balut! :-) Fri Mar 11 14:57:53 -0800 2005 1664624 0 PayOrPlay 2 1664703 now, payorplay, you wait, the chef is going to present balut in a cape gooseberry foam with bits of fried cordyceps and oaxacan chapulin garnishes. Extra points for immature cordyceps. Fri Mar 11 19:44:18 -0800 2005 1664674 0 Jerome 3 1664990 Jerome- Something like this? Image: http://www.fungi.ca/webimages/Cordyceps%20on%20Tarantula%20B%20Kendrick.JPG Thu Mar 17 16:59:51 -0800 2005 1664703 0 Spoony Bard 4 1664997 on a tarantula? How much more innovative and "delicious' than a boring old Chinese caterpiller. Thanks SPoony bard- I'm grinning like a serial killer. Thu Mar 17 20:20:27 -0800 2005 1664990 0 Jerome 2 1664704 Or to get even more obscure, slices of Surströmming on durian gelee for an entremet. Fri Mar 11 19:46:30 -0800 2005 1664674 0 Jerome 3 1664979 Surstromming mit durian? That would be wonderful to see. The one time I participated in a surstromming ritual, the stink of the stuff must have attracted every cat for blocks around - really, there must have been 20 cats. In contrast, uni with raw quail egg yolk is fairly common in sushi bars, and it wouldn't be unusual for a chef at a place like Nobu to paint the lily with a few grains of sevruga. Thu Mar 17 15:24:27 -0800 2005 1664704 0 condiment 1 1664707 I read the full thread, plus your detailed menu report. My first reaction was, of course, EEEECH. But then I got to thinking...isn't this a little like the fashion industry's high fashion shows with their really pretty extreme stuff that no normal human being would ever wear in real life. BUT then, what happens is that little bits - nuances, insinuations - trickle down to the regular folks. There are drifts of ideas that infuse themselves into our normal everyday cooking lives from these examples of absurdity, don't you think? Isn't it a fact that we are shocked and disgusted at first, but eventually accept? I'm not saying that we'll all be eating olive oil ice cream with cured sardine anytime soon, but maybe some of that consciousness will, eventually, touch us in a more reasonable way. It wasn't so very long ago that I thought cilantro was disgusting. Fri Mar 11 20:06:51 -0800 2005 1664624 0 Nyleve 2 1664718 That is really a wonderful analogy and makes a lot of sense to me. It really isn't the creative 'design houses' at the top like Chez Panisse and El Bulli that bother me.' It's the knockoff houses so to speak. But thinking thru your logic then sure from Chanel to whoever to Macy's to Target. Thanks to Alice there is attention to local suppliers, organic food, etc even at your local Safeway these days. I just wish they wouldn't copy each other. There are so many wonderful dishes and foods out there that I don't understand why everyone is doing raasted beets, pork bellies and it seems lately tripe is creeping in. To the another poster about the egg thing ... it's the whole texture and sliminess of raw eggs that's awful to me. I don't even like fried eggs where that membrane isn't cooked. And runny scrambled eggs with the white still raw ... shudder. Don't even like little baby quail eggs. Don't know why. Like raw oysters and clams which are similarily slimy. Just some primal dislike. Fri Mar 11 23:46:26 -0800 2005 1664707 0 Krys 3 1664803 OK, let me get this straight. You have never been to El Bulli. (but read about it) You have never been to Campton Place, nor are you familiar with the chef's work elsewhere. (but read about one meal there on CH) Thus, you *know* that the latter is "knocking off" the former. Your disdain for C.P. partially stems from the fact that you find any part of raw egg disgusting. Well.... no comment, as they say. Sun Mar 13 20:07:26 -0800 2005 1664718 0 Sir Gawain 2 1664748 >>> There are drifts of ideas that infuse themselves into our normal everyday cooking lives from these examples of absurdity, don't you think? <<< Thought again about this when stopped at a traffic light today. I glanced over at Denny's and a sign in the window was adverstising grilled tilapia. Could you even imagine Denny's serving that ten years ago? Across the street was Jack in the Box and it's Brushetta Chicken sandwich on a ciabatta roll (recently discussed on this board). I hope the good things like that trickle down to our ordinary lives from these inventive chefs. I just hope though we never see KFC chicken lollipops or Mc Fois Gras nuggets. Given the current rage for tripe, I despair at the thought of Taco Bell serving chicarron. OK. I'm over my rant. I can walk into my next upscale restaurant and face that plate of pork belly and roasted beets. Hmmm ... you don't suppose we will ever see a beet slurpee at 7-11? Sat Mar 12 19:01:03 -0800 2005 1664707 0 Krys 3 1664773 Not a beet slurpee but perhaps a Roasted McBeetburger with Secret Foam. Sun Mar 13 10:44:44 -0800 2005 1664748 0 Nyleve 1 1664747 It all is a pun. Raw egg, sea urchin, caviar. All of these things are reproductive (look up UNI through a search engine). Whether it tastes good is another question. Tell us, did the theme work or was it a load of crap? Paul Sat Mar 12 18:51:46 -0800 2005 1664624 0 mirror 2 1664750 Yeah, I got the pun too. In fact, that's why those three ingredients were put together, as the waiter announced to us. It's clever and cute, but it did not taste good. Neither I nor my dining companion could eat it, let alone enjoy it. We tried it with open minds. Really. For example, the sweet olive oil ice cream with cured sardine, I could eat. It was interesting. I don't want to eat it again, but once was great. Not so with the egg/egg/egg-stravaganza. Sat Mar 12 19:21:48 -0800 2005 1664747 0 eel 1 1664801 Sounds delicious. Sun Mar 13 19:48:05 -0800 2005 1664624 0 Sir Gawain