299772 Fri Feb 04 18:36:22 -0800 2005 67 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1662709 ok now, time to tell the truth do you really not mind paying $15/lb for turkey breast? Spending twice what you would for picture-perfect apples that taste better if you get them at the farmers market? Or purchasing literally the exact same packaged products (like terra chips or fire roasted canned tomatoes) that can be literally purchased for 1/2 the price at trader joe's? Why do you feelt that WF has earned your business? I'm really curious! Mr. Taster Fri Feb 04 18:36:22 -0800 2005 0 Mr. Taster 1 1662712 Actually, I think Whole Foods prices, for many items, are much better than Ralph's, Bristol Farms, Pavillions etc. I'd frequent them more often if their parkinglot(SM and Fairfax) wasn't such a nightmare. I try to get most of my produce from local bodegas, Jon's, Farm Fresh, etc. whose quality/price ratio puts all the above places to shame. Fri Feb 04 18:54:44 -0800 2005 1662709 0 2chez mike 2 1662752 We are sandwiched between three WH - closest is Westwood (good parking), Santa Monica, less good parking and south at National - excellent parking and preferred by many as having a lighter client load. We have found over the months since the market strike when we became WH converts by necessity that we eat better, eat more at home and only frequent Vons for stuff like cling wrap - never go to Ralphs, or the poison palace as its called at our house - after trying all their prepared foods last year (during a bout of endless 'flu), the consensus was that it was a bottomless tasteless pit of nothing - and that's ALL their prepared foods. Vegetables bought each week at the Farmer's Market behind the library on SM Blvd west of the 405 are, in a word, marvellous and cost about half that is charged at the FM in Westwood on Thursday. Our downfall is the cheese section at WH - wondrous. Sat Feb 05 12:35:01 -0800 2005 1662712 0 Zoe 1 1662713 Whole Foods has the best fish, both in quality and selection, that I have found in almost 30 years of living in the Boston area. I mind paying anything for turkey breast, as I detest the stuff, but I don't mind paying Whole Foods' prices for naturally raised or organic meat and poultry - no hormones, no animal by-products. I would love to be able to purchase farmers' market produce year-round, but not all of us live in sunny climes, and not too many of the other local chains (the pickings are slim to none in these parts for independent fruit/veg. markets)carry the quality. Interestingly enough, a Whole Foods is (finally) opening up in my area, approximately 1/10 mile from Trader Joe's. Fri Feb 04 19:01:38 -0800 2005 1662709 0 JRL 2 1662854 You took the words out of my month. Also in the Boston area, and Whole Foods is one of the only places to get a selection of organic meat beyond ground beef and chicken breasts. The seafood is excellent. And I don't drive, so Trader Joe's is very inconvenient for me. I also shop at the local co-op, but the produce is very hit or miss, and there's very little choice for meats. I have easy access to a two great cheese shops, so I don't need Whole Foods for that, and during the summer I do a farm-share for produce. But Whole Foods is indispensible for me if I want things like organic, hormone-free sausage. I am trying to buy meat directly from the farmer, so far beef and lamb, but that isn't the easiest thing to arrange without a car either. And sometimes their prices aren't that bad. Odd things, like Gerolsteiner water and WF butter, can cost half what they do elsewhere (I assume economies of scale). I tend to buy very simple foods, no snack foods or prepared things, so I think I avoid the worst of the inflated prices. Mon Feb 07 10:35:49 -0800 2005 1662713 0 curiousbaker 1 1662716 One thing to consider is that not everyone lives in California, with year-round access to bustling farmer's markets. Right now in WA there's not much local produce to be had at farmer's markets, and they're open for like two hours once a week. Which happens to be the only time all week my fitness class meets as well. I buy at farmer's markets and TJ's when I can, but WF has some nice products, like their 365 brand Dijon, which is less expensive than the supermarket Dijon, and bulk green lentils du puy for 1.79 per pound. They're the only place nearby where I can buy bulk herbs and spices, which are also significantly less expensive than jarred supermarket herbs and spices. I just noticed heirloom anasazi beans on sale in the bulk aisle for 1.79 per pound as well. Have never seen those at farmer's markets here or at TJ's. They're also the only place nearby where I can find Strauss milk and yogurt. Again, the farmer's markets here don't have cow's milk and yogurt. WF also has a nice selection of bulk chocolate and chocolate bars. I don't see any point in denying myself good food at a convenient location just because other people enjoy sneering at the place. I could save some pennies at other organic-focused stores, but they're all significantly farther away from me, so the money saved would just be used to pay for the extra gas burned. Fri Feb 04 19:10:37 -0800 2005 1662709 0 creepygirl 1 1662717 Whole Foods has many commonly used groceries at lower prices than Safeway or Cala Foods in San Francisco. My friend who lives in DC also agrees. This might be city pricing that doesn't apply in the suburbs. Many of the 365 Whole Foods house brand items are comparable in price to Safeway brand items. I've purchased canned tomatoes, tomato paste, flour, butter, olive oil and other groceries for less than I would pay at Safeway. It's a bonus that these products are also organic and/or from small farms. I agree that the produce doesn't always taste better than from elsewhere, and the meat/fish is very pricey. When at WF I limit my produce purchases to only those things that are in season (on sale), and I hardly ever get meat there. I do splurge on cheeses, but only because for a dollar more I can get way better cheese than I would at Trader Joe's. I've done a taste test, and it's true. It's just better. I also like the bulk bins because I can buy what my recipe calls for, not a big container of something I'll never use again. WF is not a one-stop money saving store, but it doesn't have to be a wallet-breaker. You just have to comparison shop and only go to WF for things that are actually cheaper, or the rare ingredients you can't get elsewhere. Fri Feb 04 19:13:47 -0800 2005 1662709 0 nooodles 2 1662725 What Noodles said -- especially about comparison shopping. I went to both TJs and WF tonight. (south of Boston) Comparisons: Asparagus was $4.00 per pound at WF, $6 per pound at TJs. Clausen's pickles: $2.99 at Stop & Shop, $2.79 at WF. Mexican avocadoes, $3.00 for 2 at WF, Haas avocadoes, $3.00 for 4 at TJs. The trick is to pay attention to the prices, if you have the patience, because WF can beat the others sometimes, but WF can also dazzle you into overspending because everything is so damn *pretty*. BTW, my expenditures this evening: $50 at WF, mostly for Super Bowl snacks, and $50 at TJs, mostly for Super Bowl snacks. LOL, anybody wanna come to my house Sunday? Pats fans only. :-) Fri Feb 04 21:47:43 -0800 2005 1662717 0 Laughing Goddess 3 1662774 We should ship you some avocados from California! This week at Vallarta (Mexican-oriented chain here in L.A.) Haas avocados were 3 for $1.00. They were sort of small, but still. Sat Feb 05 20:18:29 -0800 2005 1662725 0 Debbie W. 4 1662801 And do you think that shipping and storing wouldn't increase their price? Sun Feb 06 09:50:25 -0800 2005 1662774 0 Sir Gawain 5 1662816 Of course it would. It was an (obviously very) feeble attempt at humor on my part. Sorry. Sun Feb 06 13:48:12 -0800 2005 1662801 0 Debbie W. 4 1662870 And we have avocados in florida 2 for a buck. I can't some of these prices I'm reading. Wow! Mon Feb 07 17:27:54 -0800 2005 1662774 0 twinmommy 1 1662718 Whole Foods is mainly useful for raising the bar on other large markets in our area (Boston). I miss our old Bread & Circus (and the Coffee Connection, before Starbucks invaded), but I digress. There are things I can only get dependably at WF, so I go there to get them. But I am not a dogmatic organic person, so I have a lot more choices, and they improve every year in my area. Whole Foods cannot begin to compete with Cambridge's Formaggio Kitchen for cheese, and if it is not too inconvenient I prefer to get locally raised and killed poultry elsewhere (even if it's not organic) or at least at my Italian market where they keep it on ice insteaed of in bins or plastic; ditto for fish. And during the farmer's market season (the main season being from about Father's Day to Columbus Day in our area), I prefer those options, even though they are rarely organic. Fri Feb 04 19:27:34 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Karl S. 1 1662719 i use WF for specific items they carry: raw dairy products (butter, milk, cream), harder to find butters (jana, organic pastures, french), specific honeys (avocado, buckwheat, tupelo), cereals (cream of rye, muesli). i'd never do my weekly grocery shopping there because at heart i'm a cherrypicker/cheapo. Fri Feb 04 19:30:54 -0800 2005 1662709 0 petradish 1 1662722 Won't shop there at all, for many reasons mentioned before. Chicago has way, way too many other options that I find preferable in myriad ways. Fri Feb 04 20:19:16 -0800 2005 1662709 0 peg 1 1662727 I shop there regularly for chicken breast and lamb steak, both of which are priced lower than anywhere else. I do not care for their seafood selection, and their prices on seafood are higher than citarella. You have to check the products carefully, for instance the Piave cheese, and the Parano Gouda cheese I buy there, are cheaper than elsewhere, and also hard to find---Their prepared sushi is very reasonable, and you can get them to make it for you however you want. Their coffee is expensive, but alot of time they have specials on tea, etc, and this is reasonable. Their produce (greens) is usually quite high, but their oranges for instance, and their gala apples both organic are very reasonable. Their cereals are reasonable, and are often on sale-- Their 365 brand of canned tuna is the best I've ever had and very inexpensive. Their 365 balsamic vinager is excellent and inexpensive. Their chips are high, but they often have the terra chips on special. Their bakery items are high, but their bread is reasonable, and so is their angel food cake. Their ground meat is reasonable, and all their meats are organically raised. Their boccacini is reasonable, and also they usually have the Muir Glen tomatoes on sale. So, if you live in NYC as I do, they are a great resource. For other staple items, I shop at Costco, and other specialty stores for olives, sundried tomatoes, feta, etc.....i.e. Astoria--Titan Fri Feb 04 22:20:04 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Janie 2 1662730 Interesting. The seafood at the Hillcrest branch of WF in San Diego is actually very good and competitively priced. I can't justify the additional price for fruits, vegetables and cheeses that I can get locally and of better quality. However, I am willing to pay the price for their organic and/or hormone free meats. Fri Feb 04 23:08:23 -0800 2005 1662727 0 Gayla 1 1662731 I live in the NY suburbs (Westchester). I've compared prices at WF versus the cheapest local regular old chain grocery store (A&P, in my case). On identical items, WF is generally cheaper, to my surprise, even on mass market items. I pay less for Cheerios and Breyers at WF. Then, once you're talking about either organic or somewhat higher end products (Ben & Jerry's, Stonyfield or Total yogurt), the difference is even more marked. If you want to compare Oreos on sale at A&P to Paul Newman's oreo-like sandwich cookies at WF, yup, I'll bet the PN cookies at WF are more expensive. They also have no transfats and no other articial ingredients. I'll pay for the good stuff, thanks. There are things available at WF that I just can't get at A&P. Almost every WF store brand item I buy is very reasonable priced and of high quality. At WF, I know that there isn't a single item in the store with transfats. I like a lot of the breads they bake. Some of the soups are good. I've had some pretty good prepared foods, but that's not the sort of thing I buy on a regular basis. Every so often we want to pick up a roast chicken. WF's may be a buck or two more than the perfectly decent roast chicken at a local supermarket, but it also tastes better and is made with organic chicken, which is how I prefer to feed my family. Maybe on similar or identical products, TJ's is cheaper, but there are 2 WF w/i 12 minutes of my house and the closest TJ's is about 20 minutes away and is pretty small. Also, their produce always looks like crap. If we want something we can't buy at WF or that we can get cheaper at A&P we buy it at A&P, but in the meantime, a lot my shopping is at WF because I feel it's the best value for my money and time. The so-called "farmer's markets" or farmstands near me mostly aren't any better and are often more expensive. I think WF gets a bum rap. Either that or I'd love to know where all the detractors are shopping and what they're buying. Fri Feb 04 23:27:02 -0800 2005 1662709 0 marcia 2 1662733 Yeah, me again. I just had a thought. Is Mr. Taster in a different part of the country than I am? One of the posts seemed to suggest he's in CA. The original post referred to $15 a lb turkey breast. If that was meant to be taken literally, we may be on to something here in terms of prices. I bought turkey breast at WF today. It was $10 a pound and that wasn't a sale price, it was the regular price for all the different kinds of deli turkey breast. Maybe WF pricing on the East Coast is much more competitive than on the West Coast? Fri Feb 04 23:40:47 -0800 2005 1662731 0 marcia 3 1662741 What kind of turkey breast costs $10-$15/lb???????? Gosh lobster is $11.99/lb here and I complain if I have to pay more than $2.99/lb for turkey breast. Sat Feb 05 07:07:02 -0800 2005 1662733 0 Candy 4 1662783 That was exactly the point I was trying to make :-) Mr. Taster Sat Feb 05 23:06:50 -0800 2005 1662741 0 Mr. Taster 4 1662820 I live in Manhattan, where Whole Foods naturally has high overhead, and where groceries are generally pricey. The only $10/lb turkey in WF is the roast turkey breast (not processed, just whole rasted breast) that's sliced to order in the deli. Turkey in the meat case is priced the same or less as in most other markets. The chicken they sell is naturally raised, and costs less than the Perdue in the neighborhood A&P. For the OP, does TJ's really sell a 14-oz can of Muir Glen tomatoes for 50 cents, or "half the price" of the 99 cents WF charges? If so, that's one more reason to wish I had access to the fully-stocked TJs you love, or any TJ's for that manner. I don't. I do have access to various other stores, and I find WF has better prices - sometimes by 50 percent or more -on some staples than many places near me, and that they have some things I can't find elsewhere. I don't actually shop at WF very much, but I am glad to have them as an alternative in my current situation. Sorry, the answers aren't as simple as you'd like them to be. Sun Feb 06 16:33:13 -0800 2005 1662741 0 Caitlin McGrath 5 1662822 It was not made clear that it was cooked turkey breast, but $10-$15/lb. still seems excessive. We do not have a WF in Indiana, we do have TJ's on the north side of Indianapolis and the very much over priced Wild Oats up there too. They are a WF copy cat. I've been in a few times but I am underwhelmed and do find the pricies ridiculous. Sun Feb 06 17:29:20 -0800 2005 1662820 0 Candy 6 1662826 Well, I suspect that the OP was simply exaggerating the costs of WF (which is, admittedly, an expensive store for many things) to make a point, but my own point was that there's no such thing as $10/lb (let alone $15/lb) turkey at WF except for the house-roasted turkey breast in the deli. $10/lb is about what the same costs everywhere around me, but food tends to be most expensive on the coasts. Sun Feb 06 19:03:42 -0800 2005 1662822 0 Caitlin McGrath 7 1662832 Yes, the $10 turkey breast was roasted in the deli section. I have no idea what the raw stuff in the meat section costs, since I don't buy it. Far less, I would expect. I wanted roasted turkey breast for sandwiches. At WF, I had a choice of roughly 6 different kinds, allowing me to get turkey with pastrami spices, so it actually tasted like something. (I'm not basically a fan of turkey, but I'm trying to lose weight and turkey seems like a good idea for sandwiches for lunch, hence the need for turkey that tastes like something.) All the varieties were $10/lb and they were all organic, no hormones or antibiotics and all real turkey breasts, no chopped up, formed crap. So, again, value for my money, that outdoes the local supermarkets, even if they're nominally cheaper. Sun Feb 06 20:59:19 -0800 2005 1662826 0 marcia 2 1662739 I shop at the Westchester County/ White Plains Whole Foods in NY. Some items are cheaper, some more expensive. In todays shopping you need to be educated and keep track of prices. WF has some things we can't get elsewhere, at any cost. All in all I use it as an adjunct to my other local markets. The one problem I have with WF is that I never know what specials they will have or the quality level of any item. I have seen fantastic prime steaks dirt cheap and lousy steaks costing a fortune. You just have to be there at the right time. Sat Feb 05 02:35:59 -0800 2005 1662731 0 The Rogue 1 1662734 They treat their employees really, really well - the turnover at my store is practically nil. Part of their mission is to get away from factory farming. They have a wondrous variety of fruits and veg for a grocery store (banana flowers, banana leaves, tiny thai eggplant, 6-10 varieties of fresh mushrooms)... They have a beautiful assortment of cheeses, wines, oils, honeys, jams, cheeses, coffees...My store even sells packaged squid salad. Their deli is great, the meat dept looks beautiful though I don't shop there (i"m a veg). Like the rest of life, you pay for what you get. I am willing to pay for great food. That their politics are in line with my own is a bonus. Sat Feb 05 00:15:06 -0800 2005 1662709 0 snackish 1 1662748 Okay, I'm going to get on a little bit of a soapbox here. Those who complain about the cost of meat at WF v. the cost of factory-farmed meat at their local Albertsons-owned grocery store should consider the true cost of the product. In order to get chicken (or whatever) meat to your table at $3/pound, the animals have to be, essentially, mass-produced, mass-fed and mass-slaughtered. They are treated cruelly (I won't go into details, because I think that the fact that factory-farmed animals are mistreated is generally acknowledged). They are given feed (sometimes feed comprising their own cousins, which leads to diseases such as Mad Cow) instead of grazing. And their waste, instead of fertilizing the land on which they graze (because they don't graze), is diverted into groundwater. When they get sick because of the conditions in which they are kept, they are fed antibiotics--antibiotics that you eat when you eat the animal. Etc. Factory farming is cruel to the animals and it's cruel to the earth. In many ways, it's cruel to the health of the consumer. But if all you're interested in is getting meat as cheaply as possible, you're encouraging these practices just like people who shop at Wal-Mart to save a few bucks contribute to their predatory practices. Whole Foods' founder and CEO became vegan fairly recently and, to his credit, he has determined not to stop selling meat but rather to ensure that the meat that WF sells is humanely and responsibly produced. Whole Foods is spinning off an independent, nonprofit Animal Compassion Foundation to, in its words, "provide education and research services to assist and inspire ranchers and meat producers around the world to achieve a higher standard of animal welfare excellence while still maintaining economic viability." (See link below.) The above is one of the many reasons I shop at Whole Foods. Also, their WholeKids non-hydrogenated peanut butter is outrageously good. Link: http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/company/pr_01-26-05.html Sat Feb 05 11:59:54 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Grace 2 1662750 I find my nearest WF quite irritating in some ways. It's in a smaller space than some and is pretty much impossible to get around when things are crowded. ALso, I'm glad to hear they treat the employees well, but the one I go to seems to have some management issues. On any given day, for example, a huge number of items in produce do not have prices displayed. Management seems to react to complaints about the crowded space (too many free-standing displays) and the lack of marked prices with a certain amount of disingenuous disbelief. That said, there are quite a few products I can only get there, and some of them are even pretty reasonably priced. I have a fair number of options in this area, too-- Trader Joe's, Mitsuwa, and several fresh produce marts. It's not that I'm in a wasteland, although it's true I'm in a region where farmers markets only operate for a small part of the year. Sat Feb 05 12:23:57 -0800 2005 1662748 0 bibi rose 2 1662758 I think people here know that already. We are talking more about the inflated WF prices for the same designer meats, not v. Albertson's/Jewel or Safeway/Dominicks mass-produced in-house labels. Better you find a good local butcher who supplies the quality of meat you want. Thank globally, act locally. Sat Feb 05 14:56:40 -0800 2005 1662748 0 peg 2 1662765 oddly enough, you can but pate, the cruelest of all crule foods, at every whole foods market. when I asked the manager why they carry it he claimed to not know how it was made. I do shop there, mostly because in atlanta it is hard to find good meats and cheeses, olives, bread, etc. Sat Feb 05 16:44:10 -0800 2005 1662748 0 joningeorgia 3 1662768 Do you mean foie gras? I don't think they sell it. Pate can be made from foie gras, but can also consist of regular liver (or meat or fowl or even seafood) finely minced or ground and seasoned. Pate is not neccessarily the "creulest" food as you state. Sat Feb 05 18:36:17 -0800 2005 1662765 0 potluck 4 1662803 Pâté doesn't even have to include liver. It can be made with any kind of meat. Link: http://www.epicurious.com/cooking/how_to/food_dictionary/search?query=pate Sun Feb 06 10:14:17 -0800 2005 1662768 0 Sir Gawain 4 1662828 Pate just means paste. The name for the product made from livers of forced fed geese is "pate de foi gras". Sun Feb 06 19:37:33 -0800 2005 1662768 0 moi 5 1662837 There are two different words with different meanings. The magic's in the diacriticals. To wit: pâte [PAHT] This pâte (without an accent over the "e") is the French word for "dough," "paste," "batter" or "pastry." PÂTE BRISÉE is pie dough or short pastry; PÂTE SUCRÉE is sweet pastry. PASTA is translated as pâte alimentaire , ALMOND PASTE as pâte d'amandes and TOMATO PASTE as pâte de tomates. pâté [pah-TAY, pa-TAY] French for "pie," this word — with accent over the "e" — is generally used to refer to various elegant, well-seasoned ground-meat preparations. A pâté can be satiny-smooth and spreadable or, like country pâté, coarsely textured. It can be made from a finely ground or chunky mixture of meats (such as pork, veal, liver or ham), fish, poultry, game, vegetables, etc. Seasonings and fat are usually also included in the mixture, which can be combined before or after cooking. Pâtés may be cooked in a crust, in which case they're referred to as pâté en croûte. They may also be cooked in a pork fat-lined container called a terrine (or any other similarly sized mold), in which case they're called pâté en terrine. Traditional parlance says that when such a mixture is cooked and served in a terrine, the dish is also called a terrine, and when unmolded it becomes a pâté. Today, however, the two terms are often used interchangeably. Pâtés may be hot or cold and are usually served as a first course or appetizer. © Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based on THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler Herbst. Sun Feb 06 22:43:34 -0800 2005 1662828 0 Sir Gawain 6 1662886 Thanks for the info. It's commendable that you credit the source, but I assume you know that reproducing the copyright notice does not negate the infringement! Mon Feb 07 21:59:49 -0800 2005 1662837 0 Miss Priss 7 1662916 I expect it to be taken down soon... but was too lazy to reproduce it "in my own words". Tue Feb 08 10:39:16 -0800 2005 1662886 0 Sir Gawain 3 1662787 Pate can be made from regular liver, whereas foie gras is made from livers of animals that are force fed. There's a difference. Mr. Taster Sat Feb 05 23:18:36 -0800 2005 1662765 0 Mr. Taster 2 1662786 Hi there Grace, OP here. Please note that in my original posting I never, ever referred to Albertsons, Ralphs, etc. because I never shop there. The only retail grocer I drew a comparison to is Trader Joe's, and although free-range/organic/cruelty-free is not in TJ's "constitution" as it is for Whole Foods, their trend is toward ethically conscientious purchasing while still (and here's the kicker) ***offering their selection of meat for an affordable price*** !! Just needed to make that distinction. Whole Foods has MUCH greater overhead, and passes on the cost to the consumer. In my experience, TJ's organic/cruelty-free/free range, etc. is the same price as the factory meat they sell at your local slop-n-shop. If you're going to buy your meat at retail (as opposed to a butcher where you know the farm source of your meat) then the only downside I can see to buying meat at Trader Joe's is that their selection is not as good as Whole Foods. But if I'm saving $15 a pound to shop at a place with a smaller selection, I'm totally fine with that. Mr. Taster Sat Feb 05 23:16:22 -0800 2005 1662748 0 Mr. Taster 3 1662802 Mr. Taster, this is getting repetitious. You are entitled to being a fan of TJ's and a non-fan of WF, but the fact is that some items are more expensive at one place and some others at the other place. It also depends opn your geography and how far you have to either place, AND to competition. So, concluding as you seem to, that TJ's is just "better", seems to miss the point for many. Let me also add that for some of us, time is a valuable commodity and we prefer to do shopping in one place where the quality is guaranteed, even if it means higher cost. To those people who "complain if they have to spend more than $2 on a pound of meat", well, that's their agribusiness-granted right. You would never be able to raise any kind of animal for that price without antibiotics and everything else that goes with factory farming. By the way, I shop at neither chain on a regular basis. Sun Feb 06 10:03:17 -0800 2005 1662786 0 Sir Gawain 4 1662807 What Sir Gawain said. And I know it varies by location, but the TJ's here simply doesn't have very much stuff, Basically the two don't even compare. Sun Feb 06 10:59:22 -0800 2005 1662802 0 bibi rose 2 1662858 I ABSOLUTELY agree. You hit every major point, with the possible exception of karma. I shudder to think what humans are bringing on themselves through their caviler, unconscious and oftentimes cruel treatment of every other species on the plant. We are all in this TOGETHER and the very least we owe animals we raise as food is a humane environment. Mon Feb 07 14:34:35 -0800 2005 1662748 0 catarina 1 1662759 The don't get my business. If I lived where my other options were just chain supermarkets, I might shop there for some things. But here in NYC, I get can get what they sell elsewhere, at places I've been shopping at for years, most often for less money. I don't have anything against them, I just have no reason to shop there... Sat Feb 05 15:18:25 -0800 2005 1662709 0 MikeG 1 1662762 I have been to the Whole Foods in the Chicago area perhaps 20 times and have yet to spend $20. First, the prices are outrageous. I can buy locally produced produce from any number of small independent grocers for well under half the price. The small independent grocers tend to buy LOCALLY as opposed to buying from some large California based producer. The small independent grocers source their breads from LOCAL family owned bakeries. I rarely see a local baked product at WF or TJs. The small independent grocers source their cheeses from local Wisconsin dairy cooperatives. Most of the cheeses from WF and TJs come from other regions and are NOT supporting local dairy farmers. The small independent grocers carry Chicago made sausages. WF and TJs like to source from the coasts. There is no comparison. The small independent grocers are located in the neighborhoods where I live and work. WF and TJs are a 20+ mile drive and are generally not in areas that I can get to on public transportation. By the way, they may be competitive with the krogers/Safeway/Albertsons of the world which are also expensive places to shop. Sat Feb 05 15:39:33 -0800 2005 1662709 0 jlawrence01 2 1662797 I'm all for supporting small grocers but I have to take issue with a couple of your points. I also live in the Chicago area. Which particular independent grocers supply "locally produced produce" in February? (or March, or April, or even June?) I'd sure like to know. And where exactly do you live in Chicago that WF and TJ's are 20+ miles away? The entire city proper is only about 20 miles wide and 25 miles long. There are three WF in the city (not counting the ones in the suburbs), all just blocks away from the el or bus lines. There are two TJs in the city, and the Lincoln Ave. location is just a block North of the Addison stop on the green line. Or, you could just take the Lincoln bus and get off at the corner. There's also a location on Clybourn near North Avenue, in the middle of an area lousy with shops that would be surprised to hear that their locations are considered inaccessible to Chicagoans. Sun Feb 06 02:05:46 -0800 2005 1662762 0 Kimm 1 1662767 There is no more pleasurable retail experience for me than walking in to a store that treats its employees well, sells high quality food, has responsible environmental & community practices and is always bright and sparkly and welcoming. If I have to pay an extra buck here or there to avoid the soul-crushing defeat I feel at Ralph's: so be it. If I am unable to pray at the altar of my Sunday farmer's market: WF offers some salvation. Though I jokingly refer to it as "Whole Paycheck" it truly is not markedly more expensive for my needs than any other in LA (and I am most decidedly on a budget). Sat Feb 05 17:24:40 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Lisa Bee 1 1662769 The way to view Whole Foods -- savior or goat -- may depend on the alternative shopping choices you are faced with. On the West Coast, it's often Whole Foods vs. other large corporate supermarkets or super Walmart, in which case Whole Foods comes out looking like an angel. But here in NYC, I see Whole Foods as a devil, not because of their products, which some people seem to love. Whole Foods is another ginormous corporation that threatens to wipe out swathes of neighborhood businesses that make NY so vital. Sadly, we are seeing NYC go as the rest of the country with the stripmall-ization of our neighborhoods. In the past few years gigantic chain emporiums like Bed Bath & Beyond, Home Depot, Kmart, etc... have moved in and small businesses have closed down and it's a shame, because it's these types of owner-operated businesses that give variety, uniqueness, and personal service in a big impersonal city. In Brooklyn, they are about to open a new Whole Foods, a 52,000 sq foot behemoth, and I can't tell you how many Park Slope yuppies are foaming at the mouth for this place to open. This, despite the fact that we in Brooklyn are blessed with butchers, bakers, delis, etc. that are locally owned and operated and have stellar product, often home-made with experience and love. I fear how many will go out of business as a result. In Manhattan, Whole Foods is about to open a huge emporium across the street from our beloved GreenMarket. Will all the Whole Foods shoppers stop or reduce their purchases from the farmers who work and grow locally? Recently, the NY-Outer Boroughs board had an active discussion of the pros and cons of Whole Foods, so heated that some nastiness and name-calling ensued. I realized that people will do as they wish and rationalize their decisions, no matter how hypocritical or unjustified. But there is no need to justify or defend their likes or dislikes to anyone. Just realize that shopping choices do have economic consequences. I will not shop at Whole Foods because I'd rather shop at local markets. I like getting my meat from Staubitz and Esposito's. I buy bread that's made fresh daily at Mazzola's -- cheese bread nirvana. I get my Italian cheeses at Caputo's where they make fresh to-die-for mozzarella every couple hours. I get my groceries from Sahadi's. And today, I walked to my local farmer's market, which is run by inner city kids who grow their own produce. We in NY have these choices. We are blessed. I hope we continue to have choices for a good long time. Sat Feb 05 19:02:17 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Pupster 2 1662770 You certainly make a valid point, and I think in general whole foods does not service all your shopping needs if you are a diverse eater, and enjoy many kinds of ethnic delicacies. As I stated in my post, I rely on them for their organic meats, because this is something that is hard to find, as well as their comprehensive natural cereal products. But, for many people, they are looking for convenience to get as much as they can in one store without going to several different places. A chowhound can enjoy this adventure, but your average person just wants to get their stuff and go, and not really chat with store owners of find out how things are made, etc. I could never find the feta cheese selection or wonderful pastries at Titan, at a place like whole foods,and I would say that I eat many products there on a regular basis, so alot of it depends on your eating and cooking habits. In terms of the politics of corporations opening and putting others out of business--well, yes, often it is unfortunate, but the smaller business cannot afford to buy in volume or modernize their spaces--but I have also seen many neighborhood places that were nasty as could be, and didn't value their customers, and frankly, I was glad to see someone come in and meet the needs of consumers, and offer a clean space with professional courteous service. So, there are 2 sides to it. I think food is a very specialized field, and if a place has something special that noone else does, for instance Andre's rugelach, then people will go there, but if a place kinda has nothing special, and another bigger more modern place comes in, yes, then they will inevitably capture that market. That is fair competition, and frankly, it is what America is founded on--so, if store owners want to keep their customers, they need to pay attention to their needs, and I think their patrons will be loyal to them. Maybe in Park Slope you have more choices, so it seems redundant for a place like whole foods to be there, but for an area like Forest Hills/rego park where the grocery stores are limited and expensive, a place like whole foods would be a godsend. Just my thoughts........ Sat Feb 05 19:16:23 -0800 2005 1662769 0 Janie 3 1662775 Janie, I respect your opinion, except I disagree with your citing that this type of competition is just capitalism and what America was founded on. I work in finance; I study fair trade practices, I've read Adam Smith... I encounter amateur economists all the time parroting, Competition is fair, that's just the way it is, only the inferior business goes out of business, come up with better product/service/idea. The truth is this type of competition is not fair, though it is some of what America was built on. Robber barons, monopolies, dumping -- all are terms referring to unfair practices that come from free enterprise but are unhealthy to competitive environment. Whole Foods, like Walmart, like Barnes and Noble, uses its economies of scale to essentially "dump" product, sometimes undercutting fair market prices. Whole Foods does this, not through discounting, but by being bigger, using cheaper labor, by squeezing their suppliers ... the very farmers they purport to help. Then once it has wiped out the competition, it can raise prices to whatever it wants. Exactly as Standard Oil did in early 1900's before regulators broke them up. Now, Whole Foods is not that bad, but please do not cite to me that what they do is "fair" at least in economic terms. Sat Feb 05 20:19:13 -0800 2005 1662770 0 Pupster 4 1662780 Bravo. Agree 100%! Sat Feb 05 22:11:41 -0800 2005 1662775 0 nikki 5 1662781 In general, every trip to WholeFoods reminds me of "The Emporer's New Clothes". I think their prices are silly, although I do buy my beef there. Since recent publicity about half-dead cows showing up in our food supply, I am willing to pay a premium for beef with a guaranteed history. But then, I use very little beef. Am philosophically not a WholeFoods shopper. Don't like their weird lines of cereal, crackers, and canned goods; can replicate their deli salads at home for 20% of the price; can buy better produce much cheaper at the ethnic Mama-and-Papas. But the staff is always really nice. Sat Feb 05 22:20:56 -0800 2005 1662780 0 N Tocus 2 1662804 P, when you say "we in New York", please realize that you are speaking of a small area (Carroll Gardens), which admittedly has some of the best food shopping in the city (especially for Italian food). I live here too and feel no need for a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or anything of the sort - the small shops here are great. You have to take the time to run your shopping errands though. This is, however, not the case in many other parts of the city. Go to Washington Heights, Inwood, or even a place like Morningside Heights, which is gentrified up to your ears, and you'll see that the food shopping choices there are pretty dismal. Or to the Bronx, where my friends live near the Botanical Gardens. There you shop either at miserable supermarkets or at dirty bodegas with no selection. Sun Feb 06 10:29:57 -0800 2005 1662769 0 Sir Gawain 3 1662921 Sir Gawain, you are absolutely right. We in Carroll Gardens are blessed, as perhaps other sections of NY are not. But I look at the locations that Whole Foods has chosen here in NY (I don't know about the rest of the country) and this makes me very cynical: they pick very high rent areas, which are already rich with choices. Why Park Slope, why Union Square, why the Time Warner Center, which is maybe the highest rent location there is in this entire expensive city? They are obviously catering for a certain clientele. Those areas you mention could probably benefit very well from a large diverse supermarket, but Whole Foods does not seem be interested in serving the underserved. Instead, they are picking the highest disposable income demographic and showering them with faux-liberal marketing mixed with slick shiny packaging. I guess they are good businessmen (I don't knock them for that.) but don't blame me if I view them with a dubious eye. Tue Feb 08 13:10:58 -0800 2005 1662804 0 Pupster 2 1662833 I think there's room for both supermarkets and specialty stores. NY's a big city. Sun Feb 06 21:55:46 -0800 2005 1662769 0 Peter Cuce 3 1662955 I hope you are right, Mr. Cuce, but when I look at places like Soho, I have my doubts. An area that used to be independent boutiques, art galleries, and quirky restaurants is now filled with chain stores -- an outdoor mall not much different than any high-end shopping center. This is what I fear. Tue Feb 08 17:07:46 -0800 2005 1662833 0 Pupster 4 1662988 It always cracks me up when "Bohemian Imperialists", who move into run down neighborhoods, and through gentrification, drive out all the working class minorities (in Hoboken, Lower East Side, Williamsburg, South Beach), then complain, when a Starbuck's, Gap, or Whole Foods, opens up and ruins the charm of "their neighborhood". I remember back in the late 70's when health food first started to become popular. People were talking about how great it was that there were companies using organic products without preservatives. Now, with the success of large health food chains, such as Whole Foods, the major health food companies like Health Valley, Tom's, Nature's Gate are making more money than ever. I think it's amusing that major health food chains and their suppliers are now viewed as greedy, corporate behemoths. I guess it was only cool to eat health food if you were buying it from a neighborhood store that was owned by vegan hippies. Maybe when whole foods opens Park Slope, you can protest by going to your local bodega and buying old fruit loops. Wed Feb 09 00:54:14 -0800 2005 1662955 0 Steve 5 1663019 You make an interesting point, Steve. I often lament how much the East Village has changed through the years, but I know that I contributed to that change. Is it hyprocrisy or just nostalgia for the way I liked it? In any case, I still feel the way I do toward Whole Foods. P.S. I'm not a liberal...not that it matters. Wed Feb 09 19:49:22 -0800 2005 1662988 0 Pupster 2 1662859 "The way to view Whole Foods -- savior or goat -- may depend on the alternative shopping choices you are faced with. On the West Coast, it's often Whole Foods vs. other large corporate supermarkets or super Walmart, in which case Whole Foods comes out looking like an angel." What? You must not mean the West Coast of the United States. Here in the San Francisco bay area there are hundreds of alternatives. Likewise in other larger cities that I am familiar with like L.A. and Portland. But even in very small cities (Bend OR, population approx 50,000) or suburbs (Simi Valley CA, the epitome of the American suburb) there are often several alternatives to the likes of Whole Foods. Mon Feb 07 14:52:18 -0800 2005 1662769 0 nja 3 1662925 I sheepishly ask for forgiveness if my generalization of the West Coast caused offense. Of course, SF is a huge foodie town. I was thinking more of my surburban So.Cal upbringing. Apologies. Tue Feb 08 13:13:28 -0800 2005 1662859 0 Pupster 1 1662772 They're very expensive -- anything that I can get there can be gotten significantly more cheaply at either farmers' markets or smaller non-chain health food/organic places in the NYC area. This, of course, involves multiple trips as opposed to one-stop shopping, and I do recognize that folks in other areas may not have the plethora of choices that we have in our city. However, the additional substantial deciding factor for me is that Whole Foods, for all of their wholesome posturing, have a history of union-busting (to the extent of firing workers who insist upon their rights to union membership a la workers in other grocery chains) and paying their employees below-market wages in the cities in which they operate. I used to live in Austin, where the original WF stores opened, and knew a number of workers at their branches who can attest to this. There's also quite a lot of information online about their history. So, in sum, Whole Foods' prices or selection for me are secondary to the human costs of running their operation, and, hence, I don't patronize them. Others may elect to follow a different calculus. Sat Feb 05 19:29:45 -0800 2005 1662709 0 NomDePlume 1 1662776 I don't like Whole Foods. I'd rather shop there than at other large grocery chains like Safeway or Albertson's, but otherwise I try to avoid it as much as possible. It's just too marketing-driven, too disingenuous, too wasteful. Quote I'm a huge proponent of organic, natural, and sustainably raised foods. I try to purchase them over conventionally grown foods whenever possible. I can't stand shopping at run-of-the-mill supermarkets like Safeway, Albertsons, Ralph's, and Kruger's. I am the epitome of Whole Foods' target segment. But for some reason I have never liked Whole Foods. I could never figure out why. But I think I figured it out. There is too much non-food "stuff" between the food and me at Whole Foods. Too much packaging. Too much metal. Too much plastic. Too many display cases with too many colors. Too much wax and shine. Too much energy being consumed by too much lighting. Too much marketing-research-informed pandering. There's just so much waste at that store. Give me smaller, more honest, less tidy if necessary, less encyclopedic natural, gourmet, and specialty stores any day. I'm lucky in that I live in the SF Bay Area so there are plenty of choices here. But I find that with just a little bit of searching I can usually find great stores even in unlikely places (e.g., Bend, Oregon or Simi Valley, California). I reserve Whole Foods as a last resort, when the only other choices are Safeway and 7-11. End Quote Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/298482#1650755 Sat Feb 05 20:57:09 -0800 2005 1662709 0 nja 1 1662815 I only buy a few things at Whole Foods. I sometimes stop for deli food on my way home when I don't have time to cook and and want something I can depend on without a lot of preservatives and funny ingredients. Sometimes when I have time I like to browse around and see the new, interesting things. Sometimes I buy something I've never had before. Sun Feb 06 13:28:10 -0800 2005 1662709 0 shoo-bee-doo 1 1662823 We used to love going to Harry's Market when visiting family in Atlanta. We went down this fall and found that Harry's had been taken over by WF. It is a pity and Harry's just is not the store it was. luckily WF has not gotten their hands on the DeKalb County Farmer's Market, (Harry's brother's place)that had not changed a bit except that they no longer take plastic money. Sun Feb 06 17:34:28 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Candy 1 1662847 Someone has yet to mention one of the greatest benefits of shopping at WF: their return policy. All the unusual foods that they sell are tempting, but the prices prohibit a lot of people from trying new things unless they're really sure what they're doing. To encourage adventurousness, WF has a policy that whateve you don't like, you can return--as long as you've kept the receipt. This means you can try that funky salad dressing and return it if it's awful. You can buy that wine, and return it if you hate it. Of course, I'm sure people abuse this policy, and it's definitely part of why prices are high. But it's a service that I appreciate, for those times when I'm really tempted to try the $20 coffee but want to be sure it's a blend I'll enjoy. This, plus the following reasons, help make WF worth shopping at: -their relatively good treatment of employees (as opposed to the cheap mom/pop places that people have touted as the "best/most genuine/most humane" local markets, where employees get paid min. wage without benefits). **Whenever you pay a fraction of the cost at one market as at another for the exact same product, you should know that someone, somewhere, is bearing the brunt of the cost. Whether that tugs on your conscience is your own business, but don't blame WF for treating their employees humanely and not being able to give you dirt-cheap food at the same time. They've, for better or worse, decided that the consumers should bear most of the cost for the food that's going into their stomaches (imagine that!).** -their large donations of food to nonprofits. Some might point out that it's just a way to get a tax deduction or get good PR, but the bottom line is that when nonprofits need food for a luncheon for impoverished seniors, Whole Foods pulls through and Safeway does nothing. -no trans/hydrogenated fat products, meaning less money on medical bills down the line. -the fact that the products in their house brand are comparable in price, or cheaper, than Safeway's house brand. This is the most important to me personally, but the rest are all things to keep in the back of our minds. Mon Feb 07 01:18:12 -0800 2005 1662709 0 nooodles 2 1662865 A correction - Safeway donates millions of dollars to charities and non-profits through their Safeway Foundation (over $82 million per year according to their website). Mon Feb 07 16:26:27 -0800 2005 1662847 0 SuzyInChains 1 1662856 This is interesting, because I have shopped in Whole Foods in 2 different Manhattan locations and found their pricing either comparible or cheaper, in some cases, than the local markets in my Brooklyn neighborhood (from Met Food and Key Food to specialty markets to mom and pop markets, etc.) Mon Feb 07 11:46:40 -0800 2005 1662709 0 Matt M. 1 1663060 Another point in comparing WF to TJ: TJ's packages all of its meat and produce in huge quantities, using plastic trays and plastic wrap. I cook for two people; I often can't use up four pounds of chicken breast or a pound of zucchini. (If I'm going to buy a huge pile of chicken, I'd rather just buy the whole bird - it's cheaper and probably in better shape - and WF will cut it into pieces for me for free.) Of course, I go both places - and count myself lucky to have the options. Thu Feb 10 19:25:29 -0800 2005 1662709 0 T-Chick 1 1663558 three words: convenience, selection, cleanliness. also, they will stand behind their products. for many of the products that i buy there, they are LESS expensive than the local supermarket. also, i like being able to buy small amounts of dried legumes in the bulk food area. their preprepared salad bar items are fine. i don't feel like making a special trip to the farmer's market when i want to buy organic cilantro. i found the organic apples that they were carrying from september to december to be superior to the farmers' market apples. they have a ton of specialty products that simply can't be found elsewhere. Sun Feb 20 22:55:35 -0800 2005 1662709 0 westsidegal