299425 Sat Dec 11 10:12:10 -0800 2004 23 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1658801 This continues a thread from the Midwest board that was pulled as being off-topic. While it is specific to Kansas City, I know others share the confusion/concern/dismay surrounding wine and liquor laws. Generally in Kansas City it is against the law for people to bring their own wine into a restaurant. The verbage apparently leaves room for interpretation and this has resulted in some restaurants allowing some patrons to bring wine, while others go strictly by the rules (and who can blame them, considering they can be fined heavily and/or shut down if there is a spy in the room). I witnessed a group of patrons flagrantly violating this and doing so in a way that left the chef/owner no choice but to accomodate them or I'm quite sure there would have been a scene. I initiated a discussion with him about this, since I had called ahead to see if we might bring a special bottle and was told that they didn't have a corkage policy and please do not bring wine. The problem here is that those who toe the line come-off looking greedy, like they're trying to make their profit from wine mark-ups. We parted friends and I have a new understanding of YET ANOTHER issue that makes owning a restaurant challenging. The restaurant, bluestem, may just be the best in town now in terms of consistent quality, attention to detail, and well-written menus exploiting wonderful, seasonal ingredients. I would eat there if they served only tap water to drink (but I'm glad that's not the case...their wine selection is well thought out and selected to complement the cuisine). If you care to read more about corkage policies where not dictated by law, I'm attaching a link to an article from Wine Country Living Link: http://appellation.com/printArticle.asp?articleID=364 Sat Dec 11 10:12:10 -0800 2004 0 squirrel 1 1658802 This has the potential for an interesting discussion. Just for contrast, should restaurateurs allow patrons to bring in a loaf of bread from their favorite bakery, salads from McDonald's, side dishes or entrees from another restaurant, or dessert from the local pie shop? I'm not talking about special food for someone with a severely restricted medical diet but merely people who prefer the food they can obtain other places but which aren't available at the restaurant where they are currently dining. Personally, in 99% of the cases, I think it's downright rude to bring your own wine into a restaurant that has a wine list. Exceptions, arranged in advance, might be allowed, but it would really need to be a very special situation, e.g. a specific wine that a couple always has with their anniversary dinner but which isn't available for the restaurateur to obtain if he's given enough notice of the situation. A quality restaurateur (or sommelier) is always willing to discuss suggestions for their wine list with patrons, and is responsive enough to the desires of their regulars to make the effort to bring in their desired wines either as a regular wine list option, a private reserve stock for that patron, or upon special request with enough advanced notice, provided the wine is available to the restaurateur. I think it's a dreadful insult to impugn a restaurateur's choice of wines by bringing your own. A good restaurant offers a thoughtful selection of wine to pair with their specific menu. If the wine selection is as important to your selection of a restaurant as the menu, the service, and the ambiance, then don't dine at places that don't have wine lists that please you...or discuss it with the owner to see if he/she values your patronage enough to either include your favorites or special order them in advance for you. I've brought wine into restaurants on occasion but it's only been with the permission of the establishment when they don't yet have a license for wine but the law allows corkage during the pre-approval process. I might also do it if law allows and the restaurant is admittedly in the process of developing their wine list and they agree to allow it in advance of my arrival. But if I did that I'd invite the restaurateur to sample the wine so he might consider it for his own list in the future. I would never compromise a restaurant by demanding corkage if it was against the law. Talk it over with the restaurateur in advance and respect his/her situation. Just my opinion but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise with a reasonable argument. Sat Dec 11 12:28:00 -0800 2004 1658801 0 Carina 2 1658804 I have been collecting wines for 40 years and have a cellar now in excess of 5,000 wines. There are many restaurants that I think of where I would like to try my wines that no restaurant can even obtain. To me the rules are simple: 1. You call the restaurant to see if they have a corkage policy, 2. You tell them what wine you intend to bring in and whether they have it on their list, 3. It is always nice, especially in the case of a rare wine, to offer the owner or the maitre 'd a taste of the wine. If they decline be sure to ask your server if he or she would like to taste the wine (these younger people get the biggest kick in the world out of tasting wines from vintages before they were even born), 4. Remember to add in an extra amount on your tip using as a guide what you would have tipped on the restaurant's median price for the type of wine you brought. Corkage is for the house and the wait staff is not compensated from that money. Corkage charges: Ridiculously cheap $2 to $5; fair corkage $10 to $15; Top price I will pay, $25, outrageous and offensive $50 (thak you Thomas Keller). I actually will no longer go to the French Laundry in Napa because of the $50 corkage. A little too self important for my taste. Sat Dec 11 14:06:44 -0800 2004 1658802 0 Hugh Lipton 3 1658807 I wholeheartedly agree with all of the points in your (Hugh Lipton) post. Never, under any circumstances, bring a wine to a restaurant that (A) the restaurant stocks in their own wine cellar, or (B) is a common, garden variety, wine. And… always call ahead to find out the restaurant’s corkage policy. I actually made this mistake at the French Laundry a month ago (brought a special bottle of wine, but failed to call ahead) and discovered their $50 corkage fee, that I simply could not allow myself to pay. Sooo… we elected to enjoy a nice bottle of “house” wine with dinner while the sommelier goggled an unopened bottle of 1975 Chateau Petrus Pomerol, that I had received as a gift earlier that week, sitting on our table… again… thank you Thomas Keller. (I enjoyed the bottle of Pomerol a few weeks later at Aubergine in Newport Beach, CA… sharing a little with the owner in lieu of any corkage.) Cheers! Link: http://www.aubergine.com/ Sat Dec 11 15:18:57 -0800 2004 1658804 0 Tom A. 4 1658809 That’s the whole argument. I said this on my original post. If you have a special wine that I cannot get why should you not be able to enjoy it? I do not think it’s the same thing as taking your own salad from McDonalds. Another nice way to avoid corkage is to buy a second bottle from the restaurant. Start with a wine that’s on the list and then finish with the one you brought. I would wave corkage in that situation. AGAIN IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. All I want is for people to have a good time and when I have to tell them “no” the first time I talk to them.......... that sucks. Sat Dec 11 15:47:48 -0800 2004 1658807 0 Colby Garrelts 5 1658812 Whoops! Forgot to mention about ordering off the house list. Either by the glass or the bottle (depending on the number of people) one should always order something from the house. Tonight 14 of us are going to The Matterhorn Chef in Sherman Oaks for a traditional Goose dinner. We are bringing in 6 bottles of red from our cellars. We expect to order 4 bottles of white from the house or libations of some sort. Bottom line is that restaurants and their staff are in business to make money and if we do not support them in that effort we watch some of our favorite or might or would be favorites disappear. Thanks for bringing up that fine point that I overlooked. May you all have good Holidays, fine meals, excellent wines and good business. Sat Dec 11 16:05:58 -0800 2004 1658809 0 Hugh Lipton 5 1658813 Just because I purchase off the house list I do not expect to have the corkage waived. The occasional waiver of corkage is generally reserved from the restaurants I frequent based on the fact of frequency and the occasion. We did a wine tasting dinner at a restaurnat in Sherman Oaks called Mistral and of necessity (based on the number of wines we wanted to taste brought our own wine. Henry did favors and more importantly put the dish I wanted on the menu that night which was Cassoulet to pair against Syrah from California and Shiraz from Austrailia. What a dinner what a night! Sat Dec 11 16:10:30 -0800 2004 1658809 0 Hugh Lipton 3 1658825 Hugh makes very good points. I too am a fairly serious wine collector, and have a network of close friends who are also collectors. When we bring wine to a restaurant that allows corkage, we have several hard and fast rules that we ALWAYS follow: 1. NEVER, EVER, EVER bring a bottle that is on the restaurant's wine list. Either call ahead to confirm what you are bringing or bring several bottles as "back up". 2. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS order at least one bottle from the restaurant. Even if it's just my wife and I, we will order at least some Champagne or white wine to go with our appetizers. 3. ALWAYS offer the Sommelier, GM, Waiter, Chef, or whoever is appropriate a taste of your wine. 4. ALWAYS bring a bottle of wine that is NOT mainstream and is a good to spectacular bottle. 5. NEVER assume that corkage will be waived. 6. ALWAYS tip extra for the wine service. Bringing wine into a restaurant for us is NOT about saving a few dollars, but rather allows us to enjoy the fruits of our extensive wine collection. In fact, when we do bring wines into a restaurant, while those bottles may not be on the list, we usually bring wines that would normally fetch $200, $300, $400 or much more on a restaurant's wine list. These are usually very good bottles. The Petrus mentioned by another poster would easily be $2500+ in many restaurants. Following these guidelines is also very much about respecting an establishment and the efforts they've gone through to create and maintain a wine list. Most higher end restaurants that have extensive wine lists have committed some VERY significant dollars to that inventory, and that effort should be appreciated. We have had very good success with places that allow corkage when following these guidelines and are almost always welcomed back heartily in subsequent visits. Sun Dec 12 04:20:04 -0800 2004 1658804 0 woo! 4 1658827 > Bringing wine into a restaurant for us is NOT about > saving a few dollars, but rather allows us to enjoy > the fruits of our extensive wine collection. In fact, > when we do bring wines into a restaurant, while those > bottles may not be on the list, we usually bring > wines that would normally fetch $200, $300, $400 or > much more on a restaurant's wine list. These are > usually very good bottles. The Petrus mentioned by > another poster would easily be $2500+ in many > restaurants. I agree with your post, but regarding this paragraph I'm not clear on what you're saying. The more expensive the bottle, the more money the restaurant is losing. Your bottle of Petrus may have cost you ~$1000 (original price*inflation + man-hours involved in cellaring + construction of cellar, etc.), while at the restaurant that vintage is listed for $2500, so that's shorting the restaurant by $1500. Normally, people in this wine-drinking class massively subsidize the restaurant for everyone else. As the restaurant, in pure economic terms, that would hurt a lot more than the guy who's saving $30 by bringing in his <$100 bottle. I understand you're saying that you never bring a wine that's on the restaurant's list, but you might otherwise have gotten something in that quality category from the wine list. As you go up in quality, this economic effect on the restaurant that we're discussing increases exponentially. Sun Dec 12 05:38:59 -0800 2004 1658825 0 Reece 5 1658862 I think you missed the point in these posts that you NEVER bring in a bottle that is on the restaurant's list already. I don't think it's fair to argue that if you have collected a bottle that would retail for $1,000, you are cheating a restaurant out of that $$ if you don't opt instead to buy their highest end bottle. Very few restaurants in my experience standardly stock $1,000 bottles of wine in any event. My experience with "wine collector" dinners is that the restaurants they patronize make *way more money* off them, even if they bring in their own bottles, than the typical diner, as the "wino" (let's call'em) typically orders the whole panoply of what's available on the menu, i.e. appetizers, salads, entrees, desserts, plus pays a corkage fee, plus orders additional wine off the menu, plus are good tippers. It's a win-win for the restaurant, if the wine connoisseur has tact and follows the above-mentioned rules. Everyone's happy. Sun Dec 12 21:04:36 -0800 2004 1658827 0 DanaB 6 1658866 I think it was pretty clear from my post that I'm assumming the bottle is not on the wine list. Nevertheless, many of the restaurants in the class that we're discussing do carry $1000+ wine bottles (that was certainly implied in woo!'s post). If you're saying that some salads, desserts, and tip (which goes to the waiter, not the restaurant) add up to $1500, the bottom line is that doesn't arithmetically compute. I think you could make a stronger argument that wine tastings produce a "scene" and/or word-of-mouth for the restaurant, and bring business that way (in this sense, they may generate $1500 of profit). How many people have checked out Mark's Duck House simply because Robert Parker occasionally does wine tastings there? But in terms of that particular wine tasting dinner considered in isolation (and assuming that the customers are not celebrities who influence other people en masse), it seems difficult to argue that the restaurant is actually making more money by allowing corkage. I find it hard to believe that customers who can afford to periodically drink $1000 wine would not eat out, or would drink tap water, rather than ordering off the wine list if the restaurant didn't allow corkage. My point is not that restaurants shouldn't allow these wine tastings -- they should allow corkage; my point is simply that the pro-corkage argument applies less strongly to these non-celebrity high-rollers than to the average customer. Also I'd like you to explain the logic behind bringing several bottles of wine for the explicit purpose of drinking something that's not on the wine list (see woo!'s post). I.e., the customer will bring A to the restaurant with every intention to drink A. However, if it turns out that A is on the wine list, then the customer will switch to B because B is not on the wine list. You can't tell me that if the restaurant didn't allow corkage, the same customer wouldn't just have ordered A off the wine list. Personally I think if you bring A to the restaurant with the express intention of paying corkage and drinking it, and it subsequently turns out that A is on the wine list, etiquette would dictate that you should order A off the wine list -- not look through your other wines until you find one that's not on the restaurant's list. Sun Dec 12 22:07:45 -0800 2004 1658862 0 Reece 7 1658876 All good points. Actually the $1000 wines on a wine lists are wines which I've paid $200-$300 for in my collection. Given that, and I don't have unlimited dollars, I would never (or almost never) order $1000+ wines from a restaurant wine list. Believe me, I've bought MORE than my share of $300-$600 wines from restaurants though. You raise an interesting point about the bringing A, and then seeing it on the wine list so therefore drinking B. A couple of notes of explanation... one in all the years of bringing wine to restaurants, I would say that it is EASILY in less than 2-3% of the cases when choice A was actually on the list. When we go out to eat, I usually have some number in mind on how much I want to spend on the evening's dining adventure... let's say we're going to a "nice" place so I figure for my wife and I, we'll usually do a tasting menu of some type with a cheese course, foie gras supplement, truffles if they're in season, etc... and that would be around $125-$150 per person in food costs. In that type of case, I would bring a good to great bottle of wine... I would usually bring several choices (primarily for pairing options, not the "A" vs. "B" mentioned) and buy a bottle from the house that runs in the $100-150 dollar range, sometimes less, sometimes more. If you figure in tax, tip and corkage, we're easily talking about a $400 dinner for just two people. I'm pretty sure that is usually on the high end of the ticket spectrum, even at nice places. We always tip well, and treat everyone with kindness and respect. Given that, we have been very fortunate to be regularly welcomed back by these establishments and treated VERY well. I doubt that would be the case if these establishments felt we were in any way "cheating" them out of any potential revenue dollars. I daresay we are considered "very good customers" by these places. Also, it is good to note that when our wine collector group decides to get together and throw dinner with 6, 8, 10, 12+ people and bring lots of bottles and buy several bottles from a restaurant we gravitate towards these same high end places and it is very common to see check totals in the neighborhood of $200-$250 per person "all in" which ain't a bad deal for the restaurant either. Based on these experiences and years of taking wine to restaurants the "right" way and respecting these establishments, I would have to argue that we do provide a win-win solution for them. BTW. There are some restaurants that we frequent that do not allow any corkage, but we still go, and of course buy wine from them, and enjoy ourselves, so that doesn't mean we only have to go to BYO-friendly places. Additionally on occasion we'll see high-end wine "deals" on a wine list and forget that we have our wine bags with us and go nuts... right now on my list is a restaurant in Orange County that has a "Parker Perfect - 100 point" aged (almost 20 years) first growth Bordeaux on their list for $595, and the current auction market prices are around $550 for that same bottle... we will definitely be going to this place to take advantage of this "deal"... clearly the restaurant bought this bottle on release (probably paid way less than $100 for it back then), and is not gouging today... gotta love it. Mon Dec 13 03:04:20 -0800 2004 1658866 0 woo! 2 1658808 Personally I've never understood why restaurants allow guests to bring their own wine at all. I'm pretty sure they would not permit anyone, except maybe a close friend just back from a hunting trip, to bring in a steak. But, I think, that's where the difference is. Wine is one of the few things you could bring with you that does not require any real preparation by the restaurant. A corkage fee offsets the cost of stemware service and related incidentals. But for me, and I suspect a lot of other people, it can be an issue of cost. Most restaurants seem to mark up wine 2 to 3 times the retail price at which I could buy it or may have bought it myself (much more if it's an older wine). It's not that the restaurant isn't entitled to the profit (and I understand they make much of their profit on alcohol), it's just that paying $60 for a $22 bottle of wine just seems to add too much to the bill for what I get in return and I will frequently pass on the wine. Maybe I'm just cheap, but there doesn't seem to be the same value in that transaction as in the food. Sat Dec 11 15:30:00 -0800 2004 1658802 0 Midlife 3 1658816 I don't know what part of the country you are in, but here in California a reasonably priced wine in a restaurant will be marked up double wholesale. The usual retail markup is 1/3. Thus a $30 retail bottle costs the restaurant $20 and should sell in the restaurant for $40. The majority of the restaurants will mark up 2 1/2 wholesale. In my estimation 2 1/2 + $5 is the max I will pay. And, I will pay it. There are just times when the occasion calls for a special bottle of wine and I don't want to be the one doing the cooking. Sat Dec 11 17:20:13 -0800 2004 1658808 0 Hugh Lipton 4 1658817 Interesting issue. I do live in California as well and happen to havebeen researching the wine retail business for a while. The info I've found is that restaurants often pay a LOWER wholesale price than a retailer would (I presume that might be to promote consumer awareness). I have no first-hand corroboration of that, however, and would certainly be interested in the basis for your statement. From my own observation, a two-times wholesale markup is generally reserved for rather high-priced wine. I've often seen $15 RETAIL bottles at $36-$38, and specifically recall seeing wines I've tried at $5.99 (Cost Plus) on menus at $22 or so. But please understand, I don't begrudge the restaurant it's profit. I'm just saying that the act of presenting and pouring the wine, by itself, doesn't seem to have the same added value as the prepation of the meal. The recommendation of an appropriate and enjoyable wine does, of course, add greatly to the value, but most moderate and lower-priced restaurants don't offer much help in that area. Sat Dec 11 18:23:10 -0800 2004 1658816 0 Midlife 5 1658819 Generally restaurants pay a higher price than retailers because buying in lower volume, they're not able to take advantage of multi-case discounts and other volume price promotions. The recent wine glut in Calif. has lead to some outrageous discounts offered to restaurants to unload wines that producers need to move but want to keep out of the retail market, but this is probably a temporary situation. Sat Dec 11 20:56:04 -0800 2004 1658817 0 Melanie Wong 1 1658806 I think it all comes down to just one thing for the city. The Taxes they raise off of wine sales that a restaurant marks up is a lot more than retail. The State says you can unless you don't have a permitt. It makes me laff when the city talks about the "fair Playing ground" when it comes to smoking because they don't want to lose the tax revenue to kansas. Just ponder this thought.....who allows the most liqour brought into any place that has a permitt?...give up...d'oh the city, think about this how much do you pay to park at arrowhead? Do they promote tailgating?.. I think once you pay to park or to get into a place it should be a no bring, gosh I wonder when the smoking laws pass....can I rent a limo for my diners to smoke in and if they want to sip on their own drink there or will the city close me down?..Gee didn't they just pass the codes for dinning outside with a nice permitt fee? My place is in clay county surrounded by cities that will allow what's a guy to do?...when I opened up I invited it free of charge, but now I can't. Sat Dec 11 15:06:59 -0800 2004 1658801 0 pete 1 1658820 With us, it's not about money at all, nor is it intended to show disrespect for the sommelier(e). We have some wines that are available by allotment (for good reason...they are produced in small quantities and are of exceptional quality). They are sold essentially in advance, and are unlikely to appear in any new restaurants. We may have company from out of town, or have tasted a dish that just cried out for a particular wine. No disrespect, not cheapskates, just always pursuing that perfect wine and food experience. Sun Dec 12 00:14:32 -0800 2004 1658801 0 squirrel 1 1658823 Clearly restaurants have to make a profit to survive -- everyone agrees with that. But what many establishments do (not just fancy restaurants) is use alcohol purchases to substantially subsidize the rest of the business. This is an arbitrary choice -- one could imagine a parallel universe where restaurants dramatically overcharge for food but hardly make a profit on wine -- overall they would make the same profit. The reason they discriminate against wine drinkers is because it's seen as a deep pocket. Now, that's fine, but one problem I have with this is that I'll be reading some food or wine magazine, and see the restaurateur/sommelier quoted as decrying the fact that ordinary people, students, etc. perceive wine as limited to a world of rich snobs. Well, guess why? Because if you're a college student you can't afford to play Russian Roulette with $80 every time you go out to eat (and 99% of restaurants will put a college student in that position). Second, I hate to say it but the vast majority of restaurants just have really poor wine lists. Unlike food, a wine bottle doesn't require significant preparation by the restaurant, so I don't think they're analogous in that sense. If the sommelier, whose full-time job is to obtain good wines, can't do that competently then I think the customer should not be at his mercy. If that's insulting to the sommelier, I can politely spend my money elsewhere. Even if restaurants have a good wine list, there are of course many instances where an individual has a bottle at home of particular value to him/her. E.g., many people have highly allocated wines. I don't think it's polite to bring a bottle that's on the wine list or not significantly different than what the restaurant offers. Third, nobody is suggesting any legal measure that would require restaurants to accept outside wine bottles. They're merely suggesting that the law *allow* a restaurant that wants to have a corkage policy to do so. Within that free market system, every restaurant can attempt to compete as it wishes. I don't see an argument against such a liberalization that can be called anything other than monopolistic (much like state laws banning interstate shipment). But I think public opinion is such that restaurants will eventually find it difficult to compete in the free market unless they go with the present trend of liberalizing their wine policies. Sun Dec 12 03:12:35 -0800 2004 1658801 0 Reece 2 1658824 From the article: > Our server informed us that the corkage charge was $30, > but we were only allowed to open one bottle. “We are > proud of our wine list,” he informed me. I just have to point out what nonsense this "we are proud of our wine list" stuff is. I am proud of my wine list, but if somebody comes over to my place and brings a bottle of wine, I'm not indignant. Clearly the waiter is instructed to parrot this as an "explanation" that tangentially conveys a marketable image for the restaurant. The real explanation is that restaurants do not have any reason to change the status quo -- neither would I as a restaurant, neglecting any altruistic motive. If they're forced to alter their business structure, they do work to adapt and in the end there is probably not much change in profit -- though I can imagine they might be a little *afraid* of a loss simply because the ground under them has shifted a bit. But the kind of person who does benefit overall is, e.g., the college student who would like to be able to go out and drink a bottle of good, inexpensive Spanish or southern Italian wine with their meal and pay a reasonable mark-up. I see no reason why the two goals are necessarily incompatible. Sun Dec 12 03:43:51 -0800 2004 1658823 0 Reece 3 1658838 There are a small number of restaurants that charge extremely low or no markups for wines e.g. Plumpjack in SF has no markup, they charge retail prices; some of the high end bottles at Troquet in Boston e.g. some of the '82 Bordeaux seem to cost less than some auction prices (at least based on a cursory google, varies from auction to auction). Sun Dec 12 14:56:46 -0800 2004 1658824 0 Limster 1 1658826 Curious... what did that one party do to "force" the restaurant to allow them to open their wine? Sun Dec 12 04:23:23 -0800 2004 1658801 0 woo! 2 1658900 There weren't weapons involved or anything...just loud, arrogant, presumptious behavior that would have made a bigger scene had he not just agreed to it and made it "go away." My party was speculating on what would have happened had they been denied. Not knowing them but based purely on the exposure we had to them that night, I'm guessing they would have a) argued and b) probably gone elsewhere if they didn't ultimately get their way. I could almost hear the question "but...don't you know who we are?" coming out in the conversation. Mon Dec 13 13:43:29 -0800 2004 1658826 0 squirrel 3 1658901 That's horrible. I totally bring wine whenever possible, but never bring any whine. People like that totally piss me off. They really screw it up for others... the lack of courtesy is really appalling. Mon Dec 13 13:54:24 -0800 2004 1658900 0 woo!