299019 Fri Oct 29 14:16:39 -0700 2004 31 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1655033 Okay, I will start with a statement that I know the best tomatoes are the ones you grow yourself, or the ones you get at the farmer's market. And I also know that here in California we've had a spate of colder, rainy weather, and so any late-season tomatoes might not be that good. And that normally, off season, I buy the plum tomatoes imported from “Elsewhere.” Yet, last night, I was tempted by the heirloom tomato display at the Gelson’s Market in my ‘hood (that would be in Silverlake, near downtown Los Angeles). They were not just "heirloom" -- all pretty in their funky colors and off shapes -- but also organic. And looked *so* much more tempting for use in an avocado, tomato and onion salad (one of my stand by salads when I'm not in the mood to cook, but want something tasty to eat, because mmmm, avocado, makes everything good). I bought three of them -- one yellow, one golden orange, and one a deep pink-red. The first I cut into, the little deep pink-red one, was a little overripe, but I figured, hey, it's organic, it's heirloom, and it's from Gelsons, so it's probably great. NOT. It was icky -- texture-wise, it was on the mealy side, flavor-wise, it had none of the sweet tart tomato flavor that I expected. It tasted of mealy cardboard. I threw it away. I looked to the next two to save my salad, with great hope, as both had that un-uniform shape and heft and meaty feel that usually bespeaks a good tomato. I cut into the yellow one, and the texture was good. The flavor *was not.* Flat, with a minsculely detectible tartness -- like wet cardboard that had been wiped with a brief bit of tomato flavor. I chucked it. On to the last one, which at this point was seeming very precious to me. I *wanted* tomato with my salad, but I was now very wary. When I cut into it, it was promising -- like the yellow, it had good weight, and good texture. I cut off a little slice before slicing it into my salad, and *it,* too, was sub-par. Not just sub-par, but worse than your regular run of the mill plum tomato imported from *wherever* would have been. Sadly to say, I chucked it too. I ate my salad with only avocado and onion. And I asked myself, is my gourmet market’s display all a sham? Are these pretty heirloom tomatoes just another way to sell a product to a supposedly discerning consumer, when the outcome is no better than the other stuff? Or have I learned my lesson -- there is no way to fool mother nature, and once the season for tomatoes is over, it’s *over*, and there’s no way no how, no matter how attractively presented, labeled or packaged, that you are going to get a good supermarket tomato after September 30th. Earlier in the season, the heirloom tomatoes at Gelson’s had been pretty good, if not profound. I had such hope for them, though, and earlier in the season they satisfied, but did not thrill. Is it just my market (for you not from LA, Gelson’s is an upscale chain, that a while back bought out our local gourmet market, Mayfair, that used to have a decent presence in LA, but no longer. Since Gelson’s asserted its name over my local Mayfair, I’ve noticed a decline in the produce section -- variety is always good, but as to quality, they seem to value “pretty” over flavorful, while Mayfair was the opposite. Case in point: the avocados -- Mayfair was the one source where you *knew* you’d get a great, ripe or almost ripe avocado, and they were objects to behold: perfect, buttery, delicious. Since the transformation to Gelson’s, they still carry good quality avocados, but, I’ve noticed on more than one occasion, they “hold” the ripe ones by refrigerating them. So, when you go to the display, you find cold, wet avocados, which, yeah, are of the Hass variety, and are ripe, but never achieve that beautiful state of buttery, delectable richness of the avocados that Mayfair used to carry. Who was their supplier? I miss them. Whew! Just had to vent. And warn. “Pretty is” does not always equal “pretty does,” no matter how tempting! Fri Oct 29 14:16:39 -0700 2004 0 DanaB 1 1655037 I can't vouch for the tomatoes in California, but in my experience (Midwest and D.C. area), once the season is over it is in fact over. I find that tomatoes that ripen when the days begin to shorten and the sun is lower just don't taste as good as they do in high season--no matter how pretty they look. They also seem to go over their peak faster as well. They need some sort of treatment to bring out their flavor. For example, I'll slow roast tomatoes in the oven to make pasta sauce instead of a quick saute on the stove. Texture also is greatly impacted by the weather with too much rain ruining them IMO. Fri Oct 29 14:44:08 -0700 2004 1655033 0 bacchante 1 1655041 Once the season is over, it is over. Heirlooms do not ship well. Don't bother with them unless you are buying them at the farmer's market. The Hollywood FM hasn't had a good selection in over a month. Fri Oct 29 15:19:12 -0700 2004 1655033 0 JudiAU 1 1655044 I agree with the other posters re seasonality, but my experience has also been that not all heirloom tomatoes taste fantastic. I have a local grower I patronize (Darryl Mosher, Brittany Hollow Farm, Rhinebeck--his produce is seen around in farmers markets and small stores, with a sign up). When he personally sells me tomatoes, he tells me what to expect from each one. The bright lemon yellow ones often lack acidity and complexity and are flat. I love the German Stripes and Brandywines--they are perfection--, but his plums are not outstanding for raw eating either. I think you have to know what varieties are best for salads to have a great result. Fri Oct 29 15:37:57 -0700 2004 1655033 0 lucia 1 1655047 In fact heirloom tomatoes *became* heirlooms because they were phased out due to their short shelf-life, or inability to ripen well off the vine, lack of disease resistance, etc, etc. They are almost by definition difficult to grow and harder to ship/store. I would also bet the farm (sorry, couldn't resist) that the ones you described had been regrigerated at some point, even if only minimally...or at least subjected to too-cool nights. I'm on romas for the next 8 months (except for a few sungolds I preserved for the dead of winter). Fri Oct 29 15:50:13 -0700 2004 1655033 0 squirrel 2 1655065 geez. I bet you're right about the refrigeration. yuk. Fri Oct 29 18:43:59 -0700 2004 1655047 0 bacchante 1 1655070 I guess growing heirloom tomatoes varieties can be effected by the ground its grown in and managed as well as the seasonal effects. My cousin was telling me that he knows of a great source/grower/field for most flavorful tomatoes and wondering how much it was worth to his friend that owns a high-end restaurant to have him tell. Just another note: Arriba Mexican Grill in Irvine had the reddest, ripest, most flavorful tomatoes in their chopped tomatoe, onion, and cilantro mix the other day. I was amazed and pleased and, in the back of my mind, wanted to find out who their supplier was/is. Anybody know? Fri Oct 29 19:10:31 -0700 2004 1655033 0 kc girl 1 1655087 Sounds like a seasonality and weather thing to me. We just had the wettest, coolest summer in New England in years, and the tomatoes, well, sucked. With the exception of about two weeks in july, they were all watery, mushy, and underflavored. Other summers, farm stand heirlooms have been the bomb; this year, they bombed. Fri Oct 29 22:13:53 -0700 2004 1655033 0 emdb 2 1655089 I guess it depends on where in New England. In the Boston area, summer was actually only a shade cooler than average (though much cooler than the previous two scorching summers) and even a bit sunnier than average, with average precip. I had the best tomato crop (yield and flavor) in a few years, and the farmers' market ones were pretty worthy. Ditto the corn season. I just harvested 4 dozen corno rosso peppers last week; if it had not been for the 10 days of cloudy, cool weather (which was about a month ahead of season), I might have had more ripen to a beautiful red. Still, the neighbors reported that my bounty was exceptionally sweet and tasty. Fri Oct 29 22:28:19 -0700 2004 1655087 0 Karl S. 3 1655093 In Ohio, our summer was cool and wet, and my tomatoes weren't very good, and neither were any of the farmers. Yet, my Dad, who lives in West Virginia, had an average amount of rainfall, and lots of sun and heat and his tomatoes were fantastic. It was a weather thing. The bane of farmers everywhere--you cannot control the weather! Sat Oct 30 00:44:46 -0700 2004 1655089 0 culinary nerd 1 1655105 I have resisted the temptation to post this many times before, but now I really can't help myself. Here's the Texas singer-songwriter-bard Guy Clark, on the subject of homegrown tomatoes: Homegrown Tomatoes (Guy Clark) Ain't nothin' in the world that I like better Than bacon & lettuce & homegrown tomatoes Up in the mornin' out in the garden Get you a ripe one don't get a hard one Plant 'em in the spring eat 'em in the summer All winter without 'em's a culinary bummer I forget all about the sweatin' & diggin' Everytime I go out & pick me a big one Homegrown tomatoes homegrown tomatoes What'd life be without homegrown tomatoes Only two things that money can't buy That's true love & homegrown tomatoes You can go out to eat & that's for sure But it's nothin' a homegrown tomato won't cure Put 'em in a salad, put 'em in a stew You can make your very own tomato juice Eat 'em with eggs, eat 'em with gravy Eat 'em with beans, pinto or navy Put 'em on the side put 'em in the middle Put a homegrown tomato on a hotcake griddle If I was to change this life I lead I'd be Johnny Tomato Seed Cause I know what this country needs Homegrown tomatoes in every yard you see When I die don't bury me In a box in a cemetary Out in the garden would be much better I could be pushin' up homegrown tomatoes Link: http://www.guyclark.com/ Sat Oct 30 11:58:41 -0700 2004 1655033 0 enrevanche 2 1655236 This is great! You know, my parent's dog is a bit of a chowhound: she will go into the tomato garden and eat my mom's tomatoes. Only the ripe ones, of course! Sometimes she's nice and leaves a bit of half eaten tomato for us to have too. There's nothing more I want now than my mom's neighbor's tomatoes (she's got some freaky stuff in her soil that makes them the sweetest things around), sliced with salt and pepper and a dab of mayo. MMMmmm... that's good eatin'! Mon Nov 01 09:56:50 -0800 2004 1655105 0 drdawn 1 1655111 I love heirloom tomatoes. A good heirloom is not just a little better than regular tomatoes it is 5 or 10 times better. That being said, not all heirlooms are the same. Earlier this year, I was in Monterey and brought home over a dozen of heirlooms that I packed carefully and ate them happily for a week. Wonderful. But later, I bought some at Whole Foods in SD and they just weren't the same - though still better than regular tomatoes. One thing I have noticed is that storebought heirlooms often look prettier, but taste worse. Also I have consistently had best luck with Brandywines - usually ugly salmon colored, but sometimes almost more green than reddish. I also like the mixed red/yellow type that is sweeter, but perhaps not as flavorful. But some of the types closer to the classic red store tomato taste more like the standard tomato. And as other posters have noted, it is awfully late in the season for real tomatoes. Sat Oct 30 13:41:17 -0700 2004 1655033 0 e.d. 2 1655363 They look better and taste worse because theyb are picked earlier. Mon Nov 01 19:20:08 -0800 2004 1655111 0 Brandon Nelson 1 1655119 One last thought (although too late for this year)...if you find yourself in NoCal, two of my favorite places in the world (for heirloom tomatoes and many, many other treats) are: Earthbound Farm's Farmstand in Carmel Valley (yes, they're the "big" guys but they use this small acreage for R&D, education, etc and it's a wonderful place to visit. See article in SJ Mercury News 10/20; I happened to be there at the same time the writer was.) They do grow, package and ship heirlooms and they would be susceptible to the woes of travel, but the ones they grow and sell at the farmstand are awesome. The Ferry Plaza market in SF has more varieties than you can imagine. I can only specifically think of one vendor (Dirty Girl Produce...good choice of names if even I can remember!) but there are dozens and I load-up every time I'm anywhere near there. Sat Oct 30 15:40:31 -0700 2004 1655033 0 squirrel 1 1655133 Did you think of saving the tomatoes and taking them back to the store? I have been burned too many times on flavorless, mealy or just sub-par produce. I take it back especially if it's say a large melon or some expensive type produce. That way your grocer will know if indeed his produce is lacking. Sat Oct 30 19:15:06 -0700 2004 1655033 0 Marilayne 1 1655199 I have to say, I find your experience a unique one; I have bought many an heirloom tomoato from Gelson's and always had a yummy experience. A tip: don't refrigerate your tomatoes, ever! It kills the flavor. A good tomato is kept at room temp and eaten within a day or two of purchase. So many unknowing people buy fabulous tomatoes from honest good dealers like Gelson's and then pop them in the refrigerator. It's like how americans serve beer:WAY too cold. The cold will make the flavor flat. Then these people bring down a perfectly fabulous grocer for thier own mistake. If you INSIST on putting a poor defenseless heirloom tomato in the fridge, take the poor thing out a few hours before you plan on eating it and allow it to come to room temp. Gelson's gets thier heirlooms mostly from a small grower in Ojai who takes care to grow and pick them with love and care for his customers. HE would be shocked at your rection to his produce, and your attempts to bad-mouth him. Sun Oct 31 18:09:28 -0800 2004 1655033 0 wavewench 2 1655200 Did you read the same posting I just read. No where did Dana say anyting about refrigerating tomatoes, nor did she bad mouth any individual. Glad you have enjoyed the heirloom tomatoes you have acquired at Gelson's, but I think in this case, I would trust Dana's comments, and not expect much from tomatoes bought out of season. Sun Oct 31 18:10:31 -0800 2004 1655199 0 Chino Wayne 3 1655201 Sorry if I annoyed you...but I trust my mouth. Just today I bought a 2 large heirlooms from encino Gelson's, took them home, sliced them up on a salad, and had a fabulous meal. They were delicious-deep and robust. Keep in mind that in California, we have an extended season...good tomatoes can still be had in the better local markets and farmer's markets. Dana had a bad tomato experience ONE BAD ONE (and she didn't say she DIDN'T put the poor fruit in the fridge)and decided to go on a national board to put down a perfectly wonderful supermarket who goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to treat customers like kings and queens. Gelson's is the only market I know of that goes as far as it does-heck, the only one in the area that STILL UNLOADS YOUR CART FOR YOU! The produce guys take pride in their fruit and vegetables-had Dana gone to the market and talked to the manager or produce manager, he would have taken steps to fix her problem. It was unfair to instead try and wreck the reputation of a market on an internet board. Sorry webmasters..but I really dislike that kind of posting. I had a different experience, and stand by it. Sun Oct 31 18:12:08 -0800 2004 1655200 0 wavewench 4 1655207 I think you are missing the point of Dana's posting. Have you heard the term "Thou shall not serve any wine before its time". Well a corollary could be "Thou shall not eat any vine after its time." While California may have a slighly longer warm season than other parts of the country, October has been cooler this year than recent years in the past, and there was quite a bit of rain in Southern California the past two weeks. So it is quite possible that the boutique organic grower, who is trying to suuply a supermarket chain that has grown considerably from the two store chain it was when I was a teenager, and thus has more shelves to fill and probably a greater demographic cross section of customers to satisfy, cannot sustain the same quality as that delivered on a smaller scale, in another time. And certainly can't counter-act Mother Nature. Whether the food industry is able to genetically engineer a tomato that looks good, is more "meatty" or more or less juicy, is more shelf stable, and that product is thought to appeal to the masses. Or whether some retailers may seek out growers of organic, heirloom tomatoes for their customers, are booth moot points when it is not the season for tomatoes. Unfortunately (in my view) markets have evolved to service the demands of a "modern" consumer society, that seems so technologically capable and interconnected via communications and transportation, but many seem to forget, a tomato is an organic life form dependent upon the balance of nature and Earth, and a tomato produced at the end of October in the North American continent, is never going to be as good as a tomato produced in nid-July. And a tomato consumed after finally arriving in a home kitchen from the market stream, is never going to compare to a tomato created in a small scale garden, outside the kitchen door. (This conecept is also known as Chino Wayne's First Law Of Diminishing Returns: The greater the demand for given product, the lower the quality of the product.) The reality is probably that if you and I and Dana want to have a decent chance of a truly enjoyable tomatoey experience, we need to seek out the local farmer's markets, or any "real" farmstands (not one of the many that seem to crop up no where near any working farmland), IN SEASON. We are not going to find this in the corporate run supermarkets, no matter how upscale, or "commited" they may seem. Anyone who thinks so is fooling themselves (but please contact me, I have some nice lake shore property for sale in the Mojave Dessert.) Sun Oct 31 19:08:51 -0800 2004 1655201 0 Chino Wayne 5 1655214 Thank you kind sir . My tomatos this summer in Michigan were wonderful , but I haven't seen a decent one in at least a month . No matter where you live , the sun , and to a lesser degree , the temperature , combined with your local soil , determine how good your tomatos ( and indeed , most of your produce ) will be . I am inherently leery of ANY store bought tomato , no matter how upscale or friendly or helpful said store may be . The rest of the world probably doesn't know about Holiday Market , but they are arguably the best grocery chain in Metro Detroit . They rock , but I still drive out to the farms in Romeo to buy my canning tomatos every year . It's nice to have to wait for the tractor towing the trailer full of freshly picked tomatos before you can buy any . They are usually warm from the sun still , and you usually have about a three week window where they are at their flavorful best . If you really want great heirloom tomatos , you should grow them yourself , that way you can see just how short the great tomato season really is , even in California . Sun Oct 31 23:15:28 -0800 2004 1655207 0 GoalieJeff 6 1655373 I agree that MI tomatoes were great this year - even after our cold and very wet spring. But by the end of September, they were pretty much tasteless. With less light and heat in the fall, the tomato taste is just not there. I hate to see those beautiful plump green tomatoes on the vine this time of year, but I just fry them up. D. Mon Nov 01 20:33:51 -0800 2004 1655214 0 Donna - MI 5 1655228 You are right. October is too late for tomatoes, no matter how much we wish it weren't so. It's still 80 degrees here in SC, but the organic tomatoes coming off the vine I planted mid-summer in my back yard in hopes of late season tomatoes taste like crap. And that's 2 seconds between vine and my mouth, no refrigeration involved. Mon Nov 01 08:49:58 -0800 2004 1655207 0 danna 5 1655345 Which lake? Havasu? Tahoe? Pyramid? Artesia? Carson? Ruby? Washoe? Walker?Albert? Clear, Eagle, or Goose? Summer? Mono? There are tons of Lakes and Lake shore areas in Mojave! Gelson's is still Family run-it isn't corporate as say, CLear Channel Radio-and Gelson's doesn't just "seem" committed to customer, care..they are. I know! I know several of the local managers by name...Kelly, who left Ralph's during the strike to work at Sherman Oaks, and couldn't be happier..Adam, who works in Encino and is open and friendly... Try talking to these people, and you won't feel so alienated in a big store...a good relationship with the butcher, produce manager, and general manager will be worth the effort. Mon Nov 01 18:01:35 -0800 2004 1655207 0 wavewench 5 1655394 My rule for produce is "the higher the price, the lower the quality". When something is in season, it will cost the least but be the best. Also, they say "Produce is grown, not manufactured". There are no guarantees like there are with canned goods (and even those vary with the annual harvest). Mon Nov 01 22:34:51 -0800 2004 1655207 0 coll 4 1655251 I never refrigerate my tomatoes. And my post was meant *both* as a lament about my tomato experience (with an explicit acknowledgment that my hopes might have been too high, given the lateness of the season), and as a critique of my local branch of a large grocery chain for which I had noticed a change in quality of the produce after that company had taken over, which is why I posted it on the general board rather than our LA board. Gelson's is generally a fine grocery chain and I patronize it regularly. I do think they offer beautiful produce -- beautiful being the operative word. The guys that work in the produce department are helpful, and I often utilize their services. Even they can't fix an out-of-season tomato, though, and I've learned my lesson to lower my expectations of that particular product (organic, heirloom variety tomato in October) to be more in line with my perception of *all tomatoes* out-of-season. My disappointment with the product was in part, as I noted in my original post, that I had enjoyed those tomatoes earlier in the season (even if they didn't rise to the height of perfection, as a farm stand or home grown tomato can). And I thank Chino Wayne for putting into words far better than I could my general feeling about the corporatization of our food sources. Mon Nov 01 12:04:58 -0800 2004 1655201 0 DanaB 5 1655265 I used to live in the Los Feliz/Silverlake area and know which Gelson's you are referring to. I have only been there once, when it was previously Mayfair. I don't like shopping at those chains b/c I always feel like I'm paying more for the labor of polishing the produce and displaying them in eerily perfect rows than really for their quality. I actually have come to appreciate food that literally looks like it came from the earth or vine w/o too much human processing. Don't get me wrong, the quality at markets like Gelson's CAN be quite good too, but definitely NOT as good as buying direct at the farmer's market (I usually went to the one in Burbank or Pasadena). Unfortunately, I feel like the words "organic" and "heirloom" have become trendy marketing tools that may sucker us consumers into something that may not be in season or fresh. I trust my local farmers and mom-and-pop markets MUCH more than these chains like Gelson's. Plus, if I get a "bad apple" so to speak (which realistically does happen), then I feel a lot better about giving my money to those folks than to the large corporations. Mon Nov 01 13:35:28 -0800 2004 1655251 0 Carb Lover 6 1655341 The out of the package, and even most of the in the plastic box heirloom tomatoes at Gelson's DO come from a small farm....in Ojai. That's about 1-2 hrs north of LA...And I tell you, if you have a bad produce or meat or any experience at a Gelson's, go back and TELL them (politely, of course) and they will do anything to make it better. Gelson's is NOT a "huge chain" market. Gelson's is a local Southern California market chain. Mon Nov 01 17:47:35 -0800 2004 1655265 0 wavewench 7 1655454 I don't doubt that Gelson's gets their produce from small farms, but the trouble w/ not buying more directly from the farmer (like at a farmer's market) is that you have no idea of the time gap between plucking and eating. Farmers really have no control of their product once it gets shipped to their buyer. Because they know when something has passed its season or expired in quality, I don't know if that same farmer who supplied Gelson's w/ DanaB's tomatoes would have put those out for sell that day she actually purchased them. If they did, then I'm willing to bet that they would have been forthcoming w/ the compromised quality, significantly reduced the price, and offered tasting samples. The cheaper "stewing" tomatoes that I got at my farmer's stand tasted 10 times better than the "best quality" tomatoes at a mainstream market, when they were in season. Listen, I have nothing concrete against Gelson's since I don't personally shop there. My point is that I don't believe that ANY market, whether a local or national chain, can GENERALLY compare in quality and freshness (and charm!) to a farmer's market. It's great that your experience w/ Gelson's has been a positive one. I looked at their website and have linked below for others who are interested. I found it interesting that they spend more space touting their "impeccable neatness"..."cozy fireplace"...being "patronized by professional food photographers and food stylists for picture-perfect fruits and vegetables" than the quality of their produce. Personally, I find those to be more eerie than alluring. I want to get in and out, not hang out there like it's a hotel lobby or spa. For DanaB: they do mention that they will be happy to let you sample any produce item by request. Link: http://www.gelsons.com/stores/index.asp Tue Nov 02 11:44:50 -0800 2004 1655341 0 Carb Lover 4 1655362 The first and last of any seasonable crop will be less than stellar. Add to that the fact that prices will always be high. The unseasonably early rains in California and the hurricanes in Florida have sent tomato prices to their upper limits and made for poor crops at best. Gelson's may have been offering the best of any bad tomates out there, but they knew they weren't of the same quality across the board as tomatoes from the same farm in August. Any produce buyer worth their salt has know this for going on 3 weeks. The San Fransisco Chronicle wrote about the high wholesale prices and poor quality of tomatoes last week. You (wavewench) were fortunate to get some good late season tomatoes. Don't assume you are part of the rule though. You aren't. Any tomatoes going to retail right now were picked early, regardless of whether they came from a factory farm, or a backyard garden. The sugar and acid neccesary for the flavor profile of a tomato are developed in the lasts days on the plant. Dana'a post didn't read as an attempt to put down Gelson's. Your out of proportion response makes you look as though you have more interest in Gelson's than you let on. I also find myself asking another ethical question. Where does the retailers responsability begin and end? the customer demands out of season product all of the time. Is it an assumed risk, or should they be warned that that November canatlope and January strawberrys won't approach the taste, texture, and quality of those that are local and in peak season? The longer I am in retail grocery the less in general John Q customer knows about shopping for perishables. his wine knowledge has improved, but his produce knowledge has plummeted. Mon Nov 01 19:15:16 -0800 2004 1655201 0 Brandon Nelson 1 2029354 Dana, DON'T give up on heirloom tomatos! Just don't get them at supermarkets Two words for anyone who wants a tomato that tastes like a tomato: farmers. markets. Two more words to second Brendon Nelson's post: IN SEASON. I NEVER buy produce in supermarkets anymore unless I am desperate and have no choice - Albertson's or Gelsons, they all select their produce for how it looks, not how it tastes. They know that most people will go for the pretty ones. Some tomatos I recommend trying for flavor: Pineapple: brilliant rainbow colors of yellow-orange-red, odd shapes, but DANG tasty with acid/sweet balance and rich, complex flavor. Tangerine: Brilliant orange color, bright lively flavor with slightly more acid than sweet. Green Zebra: very zippy, tangy but with a lot of flavor, almost "citrusy" - I love to eat a lot of the small ones out of hand like candy. Carmelo: if you see these, get them - classic deep red rich, balanced, deep TOMATO flavor. And, of course, never store your tomatos in the fridge. Ever. If you want a chilled tomato, pop it in there a couple of hours beforehand. If it's very ripe and you can't use it immediately, again, keep it in the fridge for the briefest possible time. Enjoy! Fri Nov 17 07:22:04 -0800 2006 1655033 47982 Miss Mick 2 2029453 I saw my name all over this thread (the original happened about two years ago, when I posted about my Tomato Experience at Gelson's market). I've learned alot since then, including that I don't like supermarket heirlooms, and I'm still not happy with Gelson's takeover of the Mayfair Market in Silver Lake. For one (major complaint!), they routinely refrigerate their avocados. The old Mayfair had ripe avocados all the time, but they were always good. It was like the produce guy cared, and would manage the avocados to make sure the right number of ripe ones, or almost ripe ones, were put out. Gelson's produce manager refrigerates them. Regularly. To me, that just ruins them. If you want to refrigerate your avocado, once cut, or to keep it for a few days, that should be your prerogative. I don't care to buy a "ripe" avocado that's been held "ripe" in the refrigerator. I HATE that. Fri Nov 17 11:42:09 -0800 2006 2029354 11028 DanaB