298406 Thu Sep 09 12:31:56 -0700 2004 21 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1649969 I have twice bought free-range chicken at my local farmers market, from two different vendors, and both times the results were disappointing. I am not experienced in cooking poultry, so I was ready to blame my lack of skill. HOwever, a couple of people tell me that country-raised, free-to-roam chicken is invariably less tender than factory-farm chicken. Also, another farmer tells me that my second chicken, being quite big, was probably a hen! Therefore only good for soup. How was I supposed to know? To add to the aggravation, I used to buy organic roast chicken from Eberly Farms at Fairway (NY) and the store seems to have discontinued it. They do sell Murray's "free-range" but I read that the free-range label doesn't mean anything because it's not regulated by the government. So if I want free-range chicken it seems my choices are: (a) buy from the farmers market and make soup or, (b) eat fish (wild Alaskan etc.) Btw I'd love to be a vegetarian, but I cook for some other people in my family who won't, so I think I'm better off buying a less-mistreated chicken than letting them buy supermarket chicken. Any thoughts about: --telling a chicken from a hen --cooking tough poultry --finding free-roam, organic roast chicken on the Upper West Side of Manhattan (takeout) will be appreciated. Thu Sep 09 12:31:56 -0700 2004 0 Mar a 1 1649974 Hmmm. I've found the free-range chicken I've purchased has seemed to be a lot more tender than what I can get in the store. Could it be possible that the chicken was overcooked, either for too long of time or in a too-hot oven? When I buy a free-range chicken whole, I usually do no more than wipe a little butter on it and roast it. I've bought from two vendors regularly and chickens of all different sizes. It's always been tender and quite juicy. Thu Sep 09 12:52:11 -0700 2004 1649969 0 MkeLaurie 2 1649983 Yes, it could be the cooking, most definitely. Do you buy from a particular source? Farmers market or organic supermarket? I'm looking for sources... Thu Sep 09 13:39:08 -0700 2004 1649974 0 Mar a 3 1649999 my experience with free-range chickens is consistent w/ MkeLaurie's post i usually get D'Artagnan D'Artagnan has a retail place on 46th st (Manhattan)but I usually get mine at a gourmet market called Agata & Valentina on the upper east side of Manhattan, and sometimes I see them at my local D'Agostino's In your area,I'd be surprised if they didn't have them at Zabar's or Food Emporium, since I have purchased other D'Artagnan foods there Thu Sep 09 15:27:01 -0700 2004 1649983 0 jo 4 1650026 Yes, that's it! As I understand it Eberley/Eberly (sp) Farms is D'Artagnan. I didn't know they had a retail store in Manhattan, I'm glad to hear it. Fairway used to carry their chicken -roasted with herbs, ready to eat, delicious, about $9 each. No longer. Zabar's, as far as I know, only has the Murray's and Bell & Evans. Nothing organic. I don't mind trekking to 46th though. Thu Sep 09 18:04:15 -0700 2004 1649999 0 Mar a 5 1650032 I was at Whole Foods in Chelsea yesterday (7th & 24th) and I'm pretty they carry Eberly. Then again, maybe I was thinking about Food Emporium 'cause the kinda outdated Eberly website says Food Emporium carries their brand. Regarding the store vs. free-range issue. A few years back, the NYTimes did a chicken taste test and the D'ags store brand came in either first or second. The other top rated chicken was Empire Kosher chicken which is salted and therefore as a prior poster noted about brining, makes for a more flavorful bird. What I can't figure out is whther Purdue or my tastebuds have changed. I used Purdue for mostly roasting and broiling for the better part of the '70s and '80s with never any complaints. However over the last decade I have found them to be totally devoid of flavor. Can anyone explain? Good luck with your chicken quest Link: http://www.eberlypoultry.com/retail.htm Thu Sep 09 20:14:32 -0700 2004 1650026 0 bk 5 1650049 I was under the impression that Bell and Evans WAS Organic. ?????? Fri Sep 10 08:10:19 -0700 2004 1650026 0 danna 6 1650131 Bell & Evans are "natural" chickens but, at least according to my Whole Foods store, they are not organic. Some of the tastiest large-scale production chickens I've tasted. Fri Sep 10 23:35:36 -0700 2004 1650049 0 desert rat 2 1650013 Ditto. Free Range Organic chickens are always less tough and more flavorful, in my experience. I thought a hen was a female and a rooster was a male, and other than that, your differences were just the age of the chicken (older=tougher, like people). Am I wrong on that? I sympathize with the loss of Eberly...those are great chickens and the very best Turkeys I've ever had. I'm surprised you can't find what ever you want in NYC. Those of us living in the hinterlands who have to drive 40 miles to find Prime beef or Bell&Evans chicken just assume that the world is at your door in Manhattan. Thu Sep 09 16:57:29 -0700 2004 1649974 0 danna 3 1650086 The reason a larger bird is associated with a hen and a stewing bird is the economics. You kill the bird when it reaches a certain weight as additional weight begins to be a function of diminishing returns. So a large chicken is assumed to be large for a reason - it was used to make baby chickens and kept around. As you need more hens then roosters, odds are it is a hen. Unless you're buying a small chicken ~2lbs to have a spring chicken, hold out for a 4lb bird otherwise you're being taken advantage of on the bone to meat ratio. One reason people may find factory birds to be more "tender" is because you're allowed to add up to 10% saltwater to it. This makes it juicy. And salt isn't always NaCl. Fri Sep 10 13:18:38 -0700 2004 1650013 0 muD 1 1649997 Not specific to free-range chickens--this is good for all poultry--you might want to try brining it before cooking. Results with roast chicken are much improved due to brining. Thu Sep 09 15:05:35 -0700 2004 1649969 0 Tom from Durham 1 1650008 "Hen" or rooster??? Big difference... Thu Sep 09 16:29:53 -0700 2004 1649969 0 Tom Hall 2 1650027 lol, I did mean hen or rooster... but what's the difference in terms of cooking? does it really matter? Thu Sep 09 18:07:11 -0700 2004 1650008 0 Mar a 3 1650028 Age of chicken makes a big difference in cooking and flavor. Free-range chickens tend to grow slightly less quickly than chickens raised in close confinement and so are a little older at a given weight for the same breed. The age difference is in days for fryers to a couple of weeks for roasters but can contribute to flavor. Theoretically, the added exercise could contribute to toughness. I doubt that you could measure the difference in practice due to in-sample variation in both groups. Hens and roosters are mature female and male chickens respectively. Young hens are called pullets and are unlikely to be sold for meat if they have started laying eggs. Old hens (after the better part of a year or two of laying eggs) are usually sold as stewing hens for good reason. They need moist heat but have a lot more flavor than young chickens. Except for an occasional hobbyist nobody keeps roosters for anything but breeding, so the supply is small. Old roosters have long been noted for their tough meat. Size alone will tell you little about a bird's age. Heavy breeds commonly raised for meat can dress out at 8-10 pounds at 4-7 months old. Light breeds, which produce most white eggs, will never grow that large no matter how long they live. Thu Sep 09 18:57:50 -0700 2004 1650027 0 Eldon Kreider 1 1650039 Ask the farmer. Seriously, just ask the farmer if this is a "soup" chicken or a "roasting" chicken (that is the most common terminology at our farmers market). Or you can ask him to pick a chicken for you that is good for roasting/soup whatever you are making. Most farmers want you to come back and will tell you the truth - as in "I do not have any roasting chickens today, but you can make a really good soup out of this one". Thu Sep 09 21:29:29 -0700 2004 1649969 0 summertime 1 1650057 Just so you know, the free range chickens I have always bought need to be cooked for less time than a penned-in chicken. Cooking the same amount of time made them tougher. I do find the texture is different, a little chewier, but the flavor better. Brining works well. I get free range + organic chickens at the butcher. Fri Sep 10 10:06:12 -0700 2004 1649969 0 Jenae R 2 1650080 yes, yes, and yes to all these comments. What you give up in tenderness is made up several times over in tastiness. You do need generally to cook them less, and as another poster mentioned, test it with the termometer. I have one of those that you stick a probe into the chicken and get a readout on a monitor that is outside the oven or grill. That way, you can better predict when it will be done without opening the oven frequently and changing the cooking temperature. I buy chickens from a farm vendor at our farmer's market. They have several types. One is a regular free-range chicken, and these do vary a bit in tenderness with respect to their age. All are a bit chewier than Purdue, Tysons, or other supermarket chickens. They also have less fat, better color because of their diet, and are so much tastier. Another type is what they call "old world birds." These have a large bone structure compared to the amount of meat (read scrawny) and are more extreme in all the characteristics of free range chickens mentioned above. They are much more flavorful--but also chewier to the extent that my husband prefers the regular free-range bird. To me, they are reminiscent of chickens that I have had in little corners of the world not over-run with commercial chicken farming. As to the difference between hens and roosters, I believe that what is sold as stewing hens are layers that have stopped producing eggs. They are different breeds generally from chickens raised specifically to be eaten. There also is the capon, which is the castrated rooster, purported to be better and more tender than roosters. As someone else indicated, size really isn't a general indication that you yourself can use to tell hen from rooster. However, the farmer can use it to tell you what you might have gotten previously--but only from him or her. As others have mentioned, talk with the farmer. The more you know about the products, the better you can cook them. Fri Sep 10 12:49:59 -0700 2004 1650057 0 bacchante 1 1650063 If you gain any tenderness by confining birds, you lose flavor, and (sorry I've gotta say it) karma. Large scale poultry operations do not offer farm tours. I wonder why? On the topic of building poultry knowledge at your local farmer's market try communicating your results with the farmer. Tell her that you're looking for a tender bird (poulet) or a roasting chicken. Not a stew hen. If they misguide you they won't be in business for long. La Methode for a tender bird is a novel not a short story, but you need one key tool, an instant reading thermometer. There are other ways to judge doneness, the clock being the worst method. Probe the bird between the body and thigh and stop cooking at about 150 - 155. Anything higher and you're pushing the dryness barrier. Season and stuff the body cavity with citrus, herb matter or a combo. Learn to truss (not trust, but why not?) the bird. Consider taking the bird out of the fridge for an hour before roasting which allows it to slowly come up to temp - it can do wonders. After cooking allow the bird to rest for 10 to 15 minutes - which allows the juices to stabilize. If it's too dry than make chicken salad with extra mayo, Fri Sep 10 11:08:05 -0700 2004 1649969 0 k. gerstenberger 1 1650101 I've also read that the definition of free-range is somewaht liberal -- free-range chickens can be caged for a period(s) of time and still be called free-range. The article I read suggested looking for cage-free chickens -- as those haven't been caged (ever ?). Although I wonder how prevalent this distinction is as no one has mentioned it. Fri Sep 10 14:59:01 -0700 2004 1649969 0 todd 2 1650116 That is an extremely good point, and it may account for the differences in what posters observe about "free range" chicken. We're not all seeing chickens with the same degree of free range. I do not know, but it could be more important for tenderness and taste than the specific breeds used. Speaking of which, I know nothing really about poultry breeds. Do you suppose that soon we will be hearing about heirloom chickens? Those that I buy are not caged. They live in mobile coops. During the day, they range free in a penned area. At night, they go into the coop. The coop is moved around to fresh ranging areas before the current area is totally depleted. Other animals also share the fields in an ecologically-planned rather complex animal/plant rotation scheme. Fri Sep 10 16:40:08 -0700 2004 1650101 0 bacchante 3 1650143 I doubt that you will see heirloom chickens based on meat quality because there is very little quality difference among breeds. There are big differences in size, feather colors, feed efficiency and egg colors. There is an active hobbyist interest in old chicken breeds, though. To learn more than you probably want to know, go to Murry McMurray Hatchery's site linked below. This hatchery is the major source for many rare breeds of poultry including heirloom turkeys, which really are different from the common Broad-Breasted White. Many of these rare breeds are endangered. Most chickens raised for meat today are broiler strain White Rocks (also sometimes called White Plymouth Rock) or crosses with White Rock blood. Chickens with dark feathers also have dark pin feathers, which upset many consumers. Therefore, almost all commercial meat chickens have white feathers. During the 1950s White Rocks separated in broiler and egg-layer strains. The latter don't grow as fast or as big but lay more eggs per hen. As with the other New England breeds, White Rocks lay brown eggs. Commercial white egg production largely uses White Leghorns or hybrids with a high percentage of white leghorn blood. The mobile coop and fence system is being used more and more. It is not practical in northern states in the winter but works well for sales through seasonal markets. The chickens are protected from predators such as dogs, cats, foxes, coyotes and skunks. Moving the range frequently is very important for controlling diseases and worms without antibiotics or other drugs. Ideally, the same patch of grass or other forage would not have any poultry on it more than every other year. Many growers use at least a four-year rotation with other crops in which the forage year includes legumes combined with manure to boost soil nitrogen. This is very important for organic growers or ones using sustainable farming practices. Link: http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/category/standard_breed_chicks.html Sat Sep 11 18:13:56 -0700 2004 1650116 0 Eldon Kreider 2 1650267 As Eldon Kreider hinted at, one of the reasons free-range chickens generally don't frolick about the pasture is that they become free-lunch. Mon Sep 13 12:58:07 -0700 2004 1650101 0 muD