297486 Wed Jun 16 10:55:35 -0700 2004 24 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1641837 I quit eating beef after reading Fast Food Nation a few years ago, but now my dr. says my iron is low and I'm giving in--don't have patience or strength of conviction to get it through creative vegetarianism. Still, I'd rather not get "ordinary" beef, as so horrifyingly described by Schlosser, but organic or grass fed instead. Way down this board, there's a discussion about grain-fed vs. grass-fed beef that doesn't really answer my question...which is: What is better, in terms of health (mine, the cow's and the planet's) and in terms of taste (mine)? And, Is all grass-fed beef organic? Is this going to cost me an arm and a leg, so to speak? Is it really ok to mail-order beef? That seems awfully counterintuitive, but I suspect I'll have to shop around. Thanks in advance to all. Wed Jun 16 10:55:35 -0700 2004 0 neighbor 1 1641854 I can't help with the health benefits(to either you or the cow), but it has been my experience that grass-fed beef has a much much milder flavor. If you are looking for a beefy flavor, grass fed is not the way to go. Wed Jun 16 11:39:59 -0700 2004 1641837 0 Evan 2 1641868 A lot of the "beef flavor" that people associate with beef comes from beef fat. The best beef, prime and dry aged, has the most marbling and fat. Organic beef can be grass fed (natural grass) or grass fed/finished on grain (organic grain). Because beef requires so much grain there is very little organic beef on the market. If your primary concern is mad cow, grass fed beef or kosher beef (because of how it is slaughtered) is safe. If your primary concern is mad cow/environmental impact grass fed/grain finished should be fine. Grass fed meat still tastes beefy (we buy it from a vendor at the Santa Monica Farmer's Market) but it must be cooked carefully. I prefer the taste of grass fed bison because it has a deeper taste profile, similiar to aged beef. Bison varies in quality wildly. We like Linder bison, which sells at the Hollywood Farmer's Market. Wed Jun 16 12:44:37 -0700 2004 1641854 0 JudiAU 3 1641891 Wow, thanks, Judi. Next Q: Bison--same as buffalo, or not? And what do you mean by "cooked carefully"? Gently, so as not to dry it out? And--re: kosher slaughter--it's my understanding that mad cow results not from the slaughter method or process but from feeding the cows to the cows so the farmers "save money" and "waste less." So how would kosher slaughter avert this possibility? Wed Jun 16 14:49:59 -0700 2004 1641868 0 neighbor 4 1641903 Actually the only known way of contracting variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) (the human form of Mad Cow Disease) is to consume central nervous system tissue of a bovine that suffers from Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy. The British tendency of feeding animals feed fortified by animal scraps is the cause of this infection. The exact origin is believed to be from sheep or goats (this disease has been known in both types of animals since the 18th century). Fortifying feed with animal parts has never been popular in the United States, so we have only seen one infected cow (and it originally came from Canada). If a bovine is slaughtered and butchered, any central nervous tissues and fluid could contain the spongiform, and therefore cause an onset of the disease. Even if you ate beef for each meal, everyday you would still be more likely to be killed by a meteor while traveling in an airplane than contracting vCJD. Wed Jun 16 15:29:54 -0700 2004 1641891 0 Sthitch 5 1641918 damn...one more thing to worry about. :-) Wed Jun 16 16:29:02 -0700 2004 1641903 0 danna 5 1641922 This is all true but for the fact that American testing is so very poor that we have no idea what the true rate of BSE is. In fact, beef suppliers cannot even choose to test each cow and then tell people the test results. (Several lawsuits over this point right now.) Canada found a cow first because they have much more rigorous testing. My point about Kosher beef is that part of Kosher butchering is to remove the nerve and the spine. Nothing can be sold that is even in the general region. Because of the religous requirement, they are very, very careful. Wed Jun 16 17:17:06 -0700 2004 1641903 0 JudiAU 5 1641985 There's a great chapter on this--and the relationship to scrapie (sheep)--in Genome by Matt Ridley. Thu Jun 17 10:05:25 -0700 2004 1641903 0 Sallie 6 1642052 I loved this book. I am a partner in a venture capital firm and deal mostly with Biotech companies. To help my wife (she's a lawyer) understand the businesses that I deal with, I recommended Genome for her to read. First, I tried to get her to read the latest copy of Molecular Biology of the Cell (aka THE CELL), but she took one look at this 1600 page monster and just laughed and walked away never touching the book. Thu Jun 17 13:51:37 -0700 2004 1641985 0 Sthitch 5 1642000 I don't much like flying anymore either! :) Thu Jun 17 10:54:57 -0700 2004 1641903 0 neighbor 4 1641923 Bison = Buffalo And what do you mean by "cooked carefully"? The meat is low in fat so steaks need to be medium rare at most. We cook steaks in a hot cast iron pan for just a few minutes. Stews are more forgiving. And--re: kosher slaughter I wrote comments below about this as the other poster wrote, BSE can only be contracted by eating certain portions of the cow, spinal cord, nerves, brain tissue, etc. Kosher laws forbid all of these. The British problem stems partially from the low grade of ground beef they serve. Let's but it this way. It ain't ground chuck. Wed Jun 16 17:22:31 -0700 2004 1641891 0 JudiAU 1 1641870 The article linked below is an excellent one for getting your brain wrapped around the issue -- it's by Michael Pollan and was originally published in the New York Times a couple of years ago. To answer a couple of your questions: > What is better, in terms of health > (mine, the cow's and the planet's) Grass-fed. Cows were not designed to eat as much grain as they do in the feed lot, and the result is much worse for you than grain-fed. Grass-fed beef is lower in fat and higher in Omega-3's. > and in terms of taste (mine)? Grain-fed. It is more the taste that we are used to, and has more marbling and is more consistent. Grass-fed beef taste tends to depend on the type of grass the cow is eating. > And, Is all grass-fed beef organic? Nope. And not all organic beef is grass-fed. > Is this going to cost me an arm and a leg, so to speak? Here is a price list from a local (to me) farm in Marin. It is definitely more expensive. http://www.marinsunfarms.com/pckgorder.html Link: http://www.nelivestockalliance.org/nytimes33102.shtml Wed Jun 16 13:01:28 -0700 2004 1641837 0 jen maiser 2 1642097 That was an excellent and thorough article. If you have the interest, check out "The Oil We Eat" in the February issue of Harper's Magazine. It takes the food story where Michael Pollen leaves off from a political, military, economic, and ecological standpoint. The April Harpers Issue contains "Lie Down for American," which shows the impact of centralized corporate control of our food supplies on the people in the heartland. The slow food movement is one way of fighting this, however small the real impact of such resistance. Thu Jun 17 16:00:11 -0700 2004 1641870 0 Ellen 1 1641876 All grass fed probably best for the animal. Hard for the producer to get a consistent product. All grain fed is the best for your sense of taste. I think it is bad for the cow the way eating a diet of nothing but rich, fabulous food would be bad for a human. It would certainly be possible to humanely grain feed a steer, and avoid the feed lot problem you're referring too. Organic is a set of rules you have to follow. It costs money to follow rules, some of which may make sense, some of which may not make sense for your situation, but you have to follow them anyway. If an animal is all-grass fed with no grain finish, then it is certainly in the spirit of organic. They may have to do it somewhere, but treating pasture land with chemicals isn't going to be common or economic. As for mail order, you're taking a heavy product, packing it in insulated material and then overnighting it to someone. You'd be better off spending the time to find a local producer, or supplier who knows the meat's provenance. If the animals are all raised fairly close by and not sent to a feedlot for finishing, you can always take a Sunday drive and cruise by the farm to make sure it all looks humane. Wed Jun 16 13:45:11 -0700 2004 1641837 0 muD 2 1641887 "treating pasture land with chemicals isn't going to be common or economic" huh? I've never heard of any small farmers who weren't going for organic cert. NOT treating their pastures w/ lime and fertilize. And selective herbicide use is common as well. Don't know about big producers, but I can't imagine it being any different. If you don't lime and fert. the grass doesn't grow so well and the weeds take over. Cows don't eat weeds. Am I missing something? Wed Jun 16 14:35:50 -0700 2004 1641876 0 danna 3 1642090 Depends on the weeds and were in the country you live, that is why I didn't make an unqualified statement. The further east you go the more expensive (and productive) the land so the more you can spend on it. In the southwest they are using cattle on gov't land to do for the land what bison used to do. And I'm not talking about grazing rights on federal land, this is being done in restoration projects. I guess they eat enough of the weeds. I've also heard of people using goats to clear land because they eat brush, and then bringing in more sensitive animals. I don't consider anything that passes the organic rules as a chemical. You have to decide if the herbicide is worth it, or to let the cattle eat around the weeds. Having eaten all grain-fed beef, I don't really see the point in grass fed. But if people want it, then that is great for them. Thu Jun 17 15:50:44 -0700 2004 1641887 0 muD 2 1641893 Interesting points, muD. Do you raise cattle? You do sound very informed. I never thought about "organic" being a set of rules to follow, but I guess it is just that. A legal definition, no more, no less. Wed Jun 16 14:53:08 -0700 2004 1641876 0 neighbor 3 1642096 My uncle did a long time ago before he decided on an office job. I also like following farming and ag developments the same way I like to look at pictures of tropical islands. I visit the great plains hunting and tropical islands on vacation. You always have that escapist fantasy at the back of your mind. But having lived and worked on a dairy farm, albeit only summers, I am well aware it is better in fantasy then reality. Thu Jun 17 15:59:52 -0700 2004 1641893 0 muD 2 1641967 I don't know what the organic certification standards are like in the US, but in Britain it generally means that the farms don't just follow a set of rules and call themselves organic, but that they have to meet standards--and are inspected by--the Soil Association. The Soil Association standards include not just things like 'no pesticides' but high levels of animal welfare as well as farm worker welfare. I would assume that as part of the animal welfare sensitivity it would be able to ensure the feed was good for the cow. Perhaps if you do have some sort of standards association that actively inspects, you can meet all your criteria? Okay, the tasting you'll have to do yourself. But Rick Stein (a TV chef) recently held a taste test amongst Ye Olde Non-Hippie Butchers who swore up and down organic beef was a waste of money. And which beef did they all pick, but the organic! The taste test didn't distinguish between grass fed and grain fed though. Thu Jun 17 06:43:49 -0700 2004 1641876 0 drdawn 3 1642031 Since the National Organic Standards was passed, organic certification has a federal component with massive rules. The attached link is to the top level of the rules site. Don't even try to look at a pdf file for rules unless you have a fast connection. The rules are massive, technical and very nit picky. More than a few small organic growers are going to have to go without certification because of the bureaucratic nonsense. Organic produce production in California factory farms is growing rapidly because they can meet the rules without meeting the former spirit of organic growing. These farms use crop varieties selected mostly for shipping ability, too much water and too much nitrogen. Both of the latter can boost fruit and vegetable yields at the expense of quality. Contrary to many people's belief, organic farms can use certain fertilizers that qualify as natural. Lime, rock phosphate and animal manure are examples of natural fertilizers. Also legumes fix atmospheric nitrogen in the soil and so are included in the crop rotations for all organic growers. This can be overdone, however. Link: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/SiteIndex.html Thu Jun 17 12:30:12 -0700 2004 1641967 0 Eldon Kreider 4 1642048 It is also worth noting that in CA, many farmer's meet the federal regulations but *also* meet the old CA (tougher) regulations and are certified by agencies that follow the CA regulations. Thu Jun 17 13:44:31 -0700 2004 1642031 0 JudiAU 3 1642107 But the point is they have to meet rules, some of which make more sense then others and some of which shouldn't be applied in all circumstances. I only pay the organic premium when there is an equal taste premium. Thu Jun 17 16:36:58 -0700 2004 1641967 0 muD 1 1642101 I think what it comes down to is what you intention/objective is in choosing how your beef is raised. Are you interested in health, and in what way (are you concerned about meat treated with antibiotics, or the effect on your cholesterol)? Are you concerned with sustainability? Humane treatment of animals? The direct impact on the environment? The indirect impact on the environment (use of resources in the production of grain, transport, etc.)? As pointed out by various other posters, "organic" simply means that meat was raised under specific guidelines. Organically produced meat may or may not be humane or sustainable. On the other hand, most grass-fed beef is not certified organic because the cost is prohibitive. But grass-fed beef can certainly still address concerns you might have for humane treatment, sustainability and healthfulness. I was talking to one of the produce guys at my local natural foods grocery, and we both agreed that buying nonorganic food from small local growers using responsible farming practices was in many cases preferrable -- socially, economically and environmentally -- to buying certified organic foods grown by agriconglomerates in Mexico or South America and then shipped into the US. Thu Jun 17 16:20:50 -0700 2004 1641837 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1642118 Well, I made the conscious choice to buy grass-fed whenever possible because of the Michael Pollan article someone linked to below. After reading that I felt grass-fed was the most environmentally responsible decision overall, organic or not. If I can't get grass-fed I choose organic. Thu Jun 17 17:07:17 -0700 2004 1641837 0 PegS 1 1642293 What is always so interesting to me in these discussions about meat is that there is very little talk about how the animal is actually slaughtered. Also, it is very difficult to find out this information in general. I guess that's not a fun thing to remind customers about in a beef company's marketing materials... After reading Fast Food Nation, I could care less about if the cow eats organic food or whatever. But after learning about the conditions of the slaughter houses - let's just say I do not want human body parts in my ground chuck! Sadly, our regulations in this country are very poor - with the beef industry, supplement industry, etc. It seems to me that the best way around the issue is to purchase either Kosher or Halal meats. At least their standards seem to be better. Fri Jun 18 22:43:15 -0700 2004 1641837 0 Jennifer Stimson