296998 Tue May 04 19:12:38 -0700 2004 21 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1637668 (Live in NYC, yet see this in other cities in the US and elsewhere.) Anyone else feel the same way? Sure, there is always at least one vegetarian entree, either a pasta, plate of roasted vegetables, etc that received little thought from the chef, while 98% of the rest of the entrees center around meat and include the chefs' signature items. Am far from vegetarian, just losing my taste for large portions of meat/ poultry/ fish on an everyday basis. Also, don't want a large plateful of pasta or risotto. Ideally, prefer creative concoctions which consist mainly of assorted vegetables, maybe some with tofu, and some with tiny garnishes of pasta, quinoa, rice or other carbohydrate, and perhaps a small amount of fish, poultry or red meat. Stews, casseroles, timbales, etc would be great, and small salads other than caesar, endive, frisee, caprese, etc... The Asian cuisines are more vegetable-oriented, but usually come with very sugary-sweet sauces and gratuitous fat, and of course need to be enjoyed with ample rice/noodles. In CA I noticed more of a tendency towards the use of vegetables as primary ingredients, esp in appetizers but also in entrees. So, is most of the population still meat and pasta/carb oriented with regard to entrees and appetizers? Tue May 04 19:12:38 -0700 2004 0 Cartwheel 1 1637680 I can sympathize with you though I enjoy eating a big plate of pasta or rice or better yet a slice of pizza. Still restaurant veggies tend to be boring and unimaginative and everything does not need meat. I have an idea, but I'm not sure how this works in New York. Try buffet places. Most have really good salad bars and some stew type dishes. Even a meat and potatoes place like the Golden Corral has excellent salad fixings, some good cooked veggies, and excellent small portions of stuffed fish and a tuna salad made with sweet pickles. Tue May 04 23:52:42 -0700 2004 1637668 0 EileenKramer 2 1637786 I'm guessing it's harder to add one good vegetarian dish to a standard carnivorous menu than to add two or three non-vegetarian ones. Your kitchen is set up to do plates of meat-starch-vegetable and probably a lot of these use similar ingredients and similar mise en place. When you do add a vegetarian dish, it's so much easier if it's just starch-based with a few of whatever vegetables you have around, rather than something that requires re-thinking. One of my local meat-and-potatoes bistros does a really nice vegetable napoleon but it is obviously labor-intensive with a number of different vegetables cooked in different ways, and a sauce. I'm not vegetarian (any more) but if a place has something like that, I'll order it every time. On the other hand, some people would like to see more tofu dishes but I would not trust most non-Asian restaurants to do a good one. Wed May 05 18:04:27 -0700 2004 1637680 0 bibi rose 1 1637683 I was thinking about this yesterday because I am a vegetarian and so many places STILL only offer the dreaded steamed veggies with rice or pasta primavera - which is usually a plate of overcooked pasta drenched in super-sweet red sauce with some slivers of limp veggies...yum, and only $15.95!! My idea of a perfect veg meal is a big poblano chile stuffed with diced sweet potatoes, corn and sweet peppers, topped with a little cotija cheese and a fabulous sauce... Wed May 05 00:25:02 -0700 2004 1637668 0 snackish 1 1637695 I feel you. I'm a vegetarian, and though I don't have many problems finding great food in NYC, I completely agree that most restaurants don't use the full potential of vegetarian ingredients. When I go to vegetarian restaurants, I'm always amazed at the innovation and creativity--but I guess non-veg restaurants save that for flesh. Wed May 05 09:35:08 -0700 2004 1637668 0 EMA 1 1637708 Complaining that there are not enough vegetarian choices on menus is a lot like complaining that there isn't enough ballet on TV. When the public demands it, it will be there. It's not that restaurant menus have changed considerably over the last 20 years. Seafood entrees, which used to be infrequent, now make up almost 50% of the choices in many New York restaurants. I'm sure the same is true in many large cities. Many restaurants also offer "healthy" choices for people with concerns about calories or cholesterol. (I avoid these myself - there's plenty of opportunities to eat healthy at home. Restaurants are for enjoyment.) There are many other choices on the menu besides steak with béarnaise sauce. Asking for even more vegetarian choices is certainly a legitimate position but I think that ultimately this will be decided in the marketplace. Wed May 05 10:48:45 -0700 2004 1637668 0 Bob Martinez 2 1637713 I'm definitely a proponent of markets, but the ballet analogy falls apart on one front. The complaint is that many of the restaurants that offer 1 or 2 vegetarian entrees are offering bad ones. So the market's impressions of vegetarianism end up skewed - it upsets vegetarians (but they're often locked in due to the fact that they're the minority and often part of a larger group) and reinforces the negative opinion of vegetarian options among non-vegetarians (rabit food, bland, little variety, etc). This would be kind of like showing a very small amount of ballet on TV, but it's always Swan Lake ... and not a very good production at that. Reminds me of a corporate dinner I attended several years back. Everyone had the choice of options ahead of time - Surf & Turf (described as a 9 oz fillet and a piece of Chilean Sea bass ... going straight for the endangered species) OR a Vegetarian option (unspecified). Hmmm ... wonder which most people chose? Turns out the vegetarian option was a clumpy pasta "primavera" (with zuchini, tomatoes, broccoli, and a withered artichoke ... in the middle of winter!). The Surf & Turf was so much food that half of it went un-eaten ... it even came with a side of stuffed winter squash that was a more edible vegetarian option than the vegetarian entree. The disparity was comical. The market, of course, had made its choice but there was more than a bit of coercion going on. The upside was that there were so many complaints - even among the non-vegetarians, some of which selected the vegetarian option out of protest at the inclusion of Chilean Sea Bass - that the following year vegetarians were included in the menu selection committee. Guess what? Many more non-vegetarians selected the vegetarian option that year. The point of this ramble is that both marketing and the quality of available products influences the course markets take as they develop. rien Wed May 05 11:31:20 -0700 2004 1637708 0 rien 3 1637726 With all respect, I think you are taking the position that “if only they had access to the good stuff they would love it.” This premise leads people to say things like – “If only you listened to Miles Davis and Charlie Parker instead of Chuck Mangione you’d become a big jazz fan.” And “If only you went to a hockey game instead of watching on TV you’d love it.” Well, maybe yes and maybe no. Certainly exposure to high quality examples is a better test of something’s intrinsic attractiveness but in the end, certain options will always be minority choices. In the case of vegetarianism, which is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice, there isn’t a single major country where vegetarianism is embraced by the majority of the population. Even in India, which has a long established vegetarian tradition, estimates of vegetarianism range from 20% to 40% of the population. And many of those who are vegetarians embrace it for religious reasons – something not likely to gain traction in the rest of the world. I agree with your desire to have more quality vegetarian choices on restaurant menus. I may even indulge occasionally myself. But I think you need to have realistic expectations as to how far the marketplace will bend to accommodate you. Link: http://www.montelis.com/satya/backissues/feb98/around_india.html Wed May 05 12:16:03 -0700 2004 1637713 0 Bob Martinez 4 1637759 No, no, I'm definitely not taking that position! I merely said that quality of product and marketing have an impact on demand. Miles Davis recordings are in higher demand than those by members of the local high school band. His music is of high quality and it is well marketed. People that might potentially like jazz often have their preconceived notions confirmed - lots of samey sounding aimless boppy lines or sappy melodies - and think, "well, guess that's all there is to it." It's not inevitable that exposure to a quality example will convert, but it is much more likely. I agree with you whole-heartedly that some things are entrenched minority/majority choices. On the demographic breakdown, there's a bit of a confusion of terms. When talking about food options I tend to think of "vegetarian choices", leaving the lifestyle choice to a higher level. Choosing a vegetarian option at a restaurant doesn't mean you're choosing the lifestyle. This flashes back to the Miles Davis example - I can be a hard core Hip-Hop lover and listen to Miles occasionally. Likewise, the carnivore can be tempted by a great sounding vegetarian option. It's not as if they need to adopt the lifestyle of vegetarian or jazzhead. So, while I it's true that there aren't dominant vegetarian countries - though there might be parts of India that are above the norm and populous enough to be considered a country were it not for those pesky political boundaries - there are many that offer far more vegetarian options ... or at least options where the animal product is a small supplement to the main vegetable portion. Out_ Rien Wed May 05 15:28:10 -0700 2004 1637726 0 rien 1 1637709 Cartwheel-- I call that one vegetarian entree (usually, as snackish described, pasta primavera with overcooked vegetables in a sweet red sauce), "A-carnivore's-idea-of-what-a-vegetarian-eats"! Smokey Wed May 05 10:52:46 -0700 2004 1637668 0 Smokey 1 1637744 Although I'm not a vegetarian, I prefer to eat vegetarianly most of the time, and I've had the same thought myself. I don't feel it's about the marketplace bending to meet a huge demand for vegetarianism -- it's simply about acknowledging a respectable minority of customers who want to be full and happy at the end of their meal without ever seeing an animal product on their plate. It amazes me that even at very upscale restaurants where chefs have spent years learning their craft/art, the vegetarian entree consists of roasted vegetables on a plate, and if you're lucky, some rice. (Or the infamous pasta primavera mush.) Vegetarians may not want to eat meat, but they have the same nutritional needs as other human beings and the same desire for a pleasurable, satisfying dining experience. Why would a well-trained chef assume that some turnips, carrots and onions marinated in balsamic vinegar and garnished with a sprig of thyme is going to satisfy me, while my carnivorous companion gets a side of beef and half a pound of potates? Creative vegetarian chefs can do great things with tempeh, tofu and the many different types of beans and legumes that are available, so my conclusion is that the non-vegetarian chefs have a fundamental philosophical aversion to vegetarianism and feel it's a waste of their time. Didn't Anthony Bourdain say something to that effect in "Kitchen Confidential"? Wed May 05 14:20:39 -0700 2004 1637668 0 Cara 2 1637751 Bourdain did say so. I would note that there are enlightened non-vegetarian chefs who do nice things in their restaurants for vegetarians. Daniel Boulud, for example, has a vegetarian section on his menu at Cafe Boulud, with very interesting food. I'm very much a carnivore and personally don't think much of vegetarianism (actually, I'm cool with the ovo-lacto thing but very much dissapprove of vegan and no I won't debate or acknowledge any flames on the subject) but the last time I went there I actually ate two items from the vegetarian section: red wine risotto and root vegetable cassoulet (it was winter). Both were utterly fantastic. THAT is what a high-end restaurant should be offering to its vegetarian customers. Wed May 05 15:00:31 -0700 2004 1637744 0 dude 3 1637755 YOu know what? My opinion is irrelevant to the point (was intended to amplify, but is really unnecessary.) I apologize for editorializing instead of sticking explicitly to the CHOW! Wed May 05 15:20:10 -0700 2004 1637751 0 dude 4 1637813 Kudos. Though I don't think much of the carnivore diet, I try not to say it to meat-eaters ;-) Now, back to the chow. Wed May 05 22:43:50 -0700 2004 1637755 0 snackish 2 1637835 i think you raised an important point with the word "creative." sure, a chef may have a philosophical problem with vegetarianism as a lifestyle, but that's no excuse for being unable to come up with good dishes that don't contain meat. unfortunately, it seems like the term "vegetarian," when applied to menu items, has come to mean "boring" or "inferior" in a lot of people's minds. it has for me. yet i frequently cook really good dishes at home that don't contain meat, and sometimes i do it without realizing till later that i haven't used any meat. maybe it's just the focus. if you make your primary focus "no meat," then you're starting with a lack. but if you focus on "good food," you open yourself to all the possibilities. i think that's the way some other, more veg-oriented ethnicities think, and that's why they do meatless food better. Thu May 06 06:35:47 -0700 2004 1637744 0 kristen 3 1638065 Good points, Kristen. I think there's another reason for the prejudice against vegetarianism, and it's a subtle one which many people may deny, but I believe it exists: elitism left over from the past. NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING THAT PEOPLE WHO EAT MEAT AND PREFER MEAT ARE SNOBS. OK? I EAT MEAT MYSELF. JUST READ MY POST AND DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY. OK. Meat eating in many parts of the world has been the province of the rich, with the majority of the population/peasantry having to "make do" with plant foods (and fish, if they happen to live on a coast and fish for a living). And what we associate with "cuisine" and the notion of food as art comes from the aristocracy having their meals prepared by them for chefs. So today gourmet cooking is still associated with lots of meat, while the vegetables, no matter how tasty, are seen as lovely adornments and garnishes to complement and frame the main course. Hence real, serious cooking is looked on as meat-based. It certainly was true in my working-class grandparents' home that meat on the table was a sign of status and success. And I wouldn't be surprised if somebody dug into the history of meat eating in this country and found a link between the farming/cattle industry, lobbying, advertising, and dietary recommendations about the necessity of meat in the diet. Just a hunch. Anybody know anything about this? Sun May 09 20:47:22 -0700 2004 1637835 0 Cara 2 1637908 I'm not a vegetarian, but when I was in NY, and tired of all the heavy food I'd been eating, I had an extraordinary veggie tasting menu at Gramercy Tavern, so I guess at least some chefs (and chefs who are better than what we see in Kitchen Confidential) are getting the message. Thu May 06 17:09:05 -0700 2004 1637744 0 mamab 1 1637788 "So, is most of the population still meat and pasta/carb oriented with regard to entrees and appetizers?" Yes. It sounds like you may be tired of regular dining out. You may want to try going more ethnic, where cuisines don't rely on meat, or eating from the appetizer options on the menus. Little plates are in, now, and I find that there's a wealth of creativity in these dishes, often with lots of lovely veggies. As for your comment on the Asian cuisines featuring sugar/salt/fat laden sauces, perhaps you need to find some new restaurants? I bet that if you posted this on the NY board, you'd get lots of ideas for new places to go. NY food is SO diverse, there HAS to be something that you'll enjoy! Wed May 05 18:21:32 -0700 2004 1637668 0 lala 2 1637846 I'm glad someone else brought this up -- I was going to say something to this point. At some of my favorite restaurants there are always some really creative and interesting vegetarian choices, not specificially to be "vegetarian" so much as, well, vegetables are good. But my favorite restaurants tend to focus on seasonal ingredients through either local or regional organic farmers, so of course they're happy to show off how great this stuff tastes! Additionally, while there is plenty of crappy ethnic food in any big city, there are always gems that stay far away from gloppy sweetened sauces. For good and cheap veg-based options, I look for Indian, Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Ethiopian... (I'm an avowed omnivore, BTW.) Thu May 06 09:13:53 -0700 2004 1637788 0 --susan 1 1637799 YES! places that describe their food as "steaks, chops, chicken and seafood" (instead of, say, "Northern Italian") you just know the menu will be unimaginative...unless it's a steakhouse, which is OK. But, you know, vegetarians have a reputation for being difficult. I cheffed at a small bakery with cafe. 20% of my dishes were vegetarian plus we served breakfast til 2 pm with all sorts of crepes, waffles, eggs, etc...we also had meatless quiches and tartlettes in our case which could be heated for service. In summer our most popular lunch entree was a selection of fresh deli salads very few of which contained meat. Plus we almost always had one veg soup (out of two soups). The vegetarians would always complain. If they were told the soups were vegetarian corn chowder and chicken wild rice they'd frown and say "I CANT eat chicken" (never won't or don't which is more accurate). They would keep asking what else do you have vegetarian? They seemed incapable of deciphering the menu. They wanted low fat but not salads (in a FRENCH BAKERY for goodness sakes). Or, they wanted a sandwich but not the grilled sharp cheddar and stilton with apple and honey mustard on walnut bread, the tomato, mozzarella,and basil with tapenade vinaigrette on ficelle, or the roasted vegetable pannini (portobellas, red peppers, roasted tomatoes, gouda, and spinach artichoke spread).. When faced with these options one vegetarian decided to "just have the turkey baguette without the turkey, I guess" Another Lady (sorry, but the problem veg's usually are) monopolized the server for ages demanding descriptions of all the veg dishes only to settle on the CHICKEN pot pie. As a chef I totally respected customers desire to avoid meat for whatever reason- I personally only eat organic/free range meats- but also I had to adhere to the "theme" of the restaurant. I worked hard to offer a balanced menu and these people hurt my feelings, offended, and sometimes even enraged me! I wanted to go out there and ask them just exactly what they would like to see on that menu! Many chefs disdain vegetarians because a lot of them seem like attention seeking spoiled brats who display no particular committment to either animal rights (leather jackets) or healthy eating. No offense to you intended. But this is part of the reason the vegetarian entree is usually an afterthought. Wed May 05 19:43:50 -0700 2004 1637668 0 christine 2 1637821 I would KILL for a restaurant that had non-meat sandwiches that contained something other than a huge pile of cheese, a slice of tomato, some lettuce and sprouts. It sounds like you made a good effort to please vegetarians, and some people are just plain picky, vegetarian or not. However, I don't think that those people represent the vegetarian population in general. How could they, when they end up ordering MEAT? You probably never noticed the majority of your vegetarian customers, because they didn't complain and were deliriously happy with so many options to choose from. Also, a note about salads: Unless they contain healthy amounts of beans, grains or cooked vegetables, they are usually my LAST choice for a meal. The typical restaurant salad, with mostly greens, and a few slices of cucumber, carrot and tomato, are hardly a satisfying or filling meal. Deli salads have usually been sitting out all day, refrigerated (sometimes with a dry crust on top), and are not a top choice, either. Just my opinion - I could never speak for all vegetarians! Wed May 05 23:14:44 -0700 2004 1637799 0 LisaPizza 2 1637856 Thanks for you honesty, I too have a pet theory that some vegetarians are picky eaters in disguise. I also sometimes wonder why they insist on going around to regular restaurants and then getting upset that the soup is made with chicken stock. I understand their frustration to some degree but... Thu May 06 10:46:58 -0700 2004 1637799 0 julesrules