296311 Mon Mar 01 14:00:14 -0800 2004 27 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1631716 Thank you for the converted rice info. Next up is "vanilla extract". What we usually buy in the supermarket is "imitation" and runs about $4/pint. The real stuff would run $20/pint (extrapolating). Lo and behold, the ingredients on both read: "alcohol, vanilla". So, "imitation" is actually real vanilla extract, just diluted further? The imitation also lists "sugar", which the real one does not. Not sure how a bunch of sugar could taste like vanilla, but I suppose it's used to stifle the alcohol taste when you over-dilute it. Additionally, I have an old jar of vanilla beans. They were extremely expensive ($5 for 2 beans, I think) - what do they add to a recipe that extract cannot? By the way, do "fresh" vanilla beans exist somewhere for the taking? Mon Mar 01 14:00:14 -0800 2004 0 Ben P 1 1631725 Are you quite sure that the ingredients on the imitation vanilla label read "vanilla" and not "vanillin"? Most imitation vanillas are made from vanillin, the chemical in vanilla that gives it its "vanilla" taste. In the case of vanillin used in imitation extracts, though, it isn't extracted from vanilla beans, but is either chemically synthesized or extracted from wood pulp and then chemically modified. Here's an article with links to ideas for using your beans. I usually use mine for flavoring custards (base for frozen and otherwise), or in marsala-poached pears! Link: http://homecooking.about.com/library/weekly/aa071497a.htm Mon Mar 01 14:31:21 -0800 2004 1631716 0 Science Chick 1 1631728 Vanilla is the seed pod of a tropical orchid. The pod, when picked, looks like a green bean. It is carefully sun-dried to a certain stage, which develops the flavour and aroma. So, not really a DIY project. The main thing using the bean does is that it adds a more intense and complex vanilla flavour, as the volatile oils have not been lost to age/processing. Alternatively, you can steep them in alcohol to make your own extract, or leave them in a canister of sugar to flavour it. Mon Mar 01 14:41:06 -0800 2004 1631716 0 Colleen 2 1631753 OK, but the beans look like bark - hickory, chichory or whatever. I don't know about "carefully sundried", this looks more like "dried all to holy hell". I cannot imagine there are any oils whatsoever in the bottled beans. I usually crush them to dust, then stir them into sauces, etc. Or make those black flecks for vanilla ice cream. As per my original question, the "extract" - be it real or imitation - seems a lot fresher than these beans. I would be curious to try the pre-dried version if I could find them. Do I need to buy the alcohol-steeped version and yank one out? I go through a bottle a week of the imitation stuff, by the way, so I certainly won't be upgrading to real anytime soon. Actually, I can barely tell the difference straight out of the bottle; I am extremely skeptical of anyone claiming they can do so once mixed into cold milk or cocoa, let alone any sort of baked good or simmered sauce. Mon Mar 01 18:39:00 -0800 2004 1631728 0 Ben P 3 1631755 Well, whether or not you can tell the difference between real and artificial is a matter of opinion. If it doesn't matter to you, then don't worry about it. In all honesty, many people really can't tell. The same thing with the difference between Cassia and Cinnamon. Cassia is considered to be somewhat inferior in flavour in that it is stronger and more overwhelming than the delicate Cinnamon. It usually is sold for less. Grocery stores sell the average consumer ground Cassia at Cinnamon prices. Most people really can't tell. I'm not sure if I can tell or not either, but I make sure I get Cinnamon, as I don't like paying a premium price for a cheaper product. As for the actual drying of the Vanilla beans, I've told you what little I know. You might be better off to go to a vendor of vanilla/spices and ask them. They're often happy to answer questions. Mon Mar 01 18:51:44 -0800 2004 1631753 0 Colleen 4 1631792 Any blind taste tests (reports) around? Coming off a spoon, I might buy that some people (even me) could distinguish the two. Once you make a mock-Baileys, though, or any sort of cake...I really don't buy it! I'd be amused to see how many people claim they can tell the difference, and then fall flat on their faces. Like all those tests in which world-renown "experts" can't even tell red wine from white! That always gives me a laugh. Tue Mar 02 02:48:00 -0800 2004 1631755 0 Ben P 5 1631861 Well, I don't know of any official taste tests, although the Cook's Illustrated one has been mentioned. From my own observations, I don't think I've ever had anyone say, "Mmm... did you use real vanilla?" Conversely, I've never seen anyone spit it out and say, "Yuck! Artificial vanilla!" They'll just scarf down whatever it is. From that I'd say in most dishes most people can't tell the difference. In addition, if the dish has other strong flavours such as chocolate, the vanilla is just a background flavour. I use the real stuff from a personal prejudice for using real flavourings over artificial. The only place I can see it making a difference is in a dish where vanilla is the star and not masked by other flavours. Some of the merchants mentioned on the board, such as Penzey's sell vanilla, as well as other spices and flavourings. I'd suggest tracking down some of these merchants and asking them. Tue Mar 02 17:22:29 -0800 2004 1631792 0 Colleen 3 1631766 If your Vanilla beans are brittle, then they are pretty old. Cured Vanilla beans should be pliable, and should be kept airtight in as small a jar as possible. Instead of crunching up your beans you might want to steep then to extract flavor. I like to use Tuaca, but vodka works. Let them steep away for a couple months, if possible, split so the inside seeds and oils are released. Mon Mar 01 21:19:02 -0800 2004 1631753 0 ciaolette 4 1631791 OIC. They must just be "turned". Rather than waste any tuaca or vodka on them, I'll pitch them, and go buy a fresh batch. What is a "spice vendor", by the way? (Just seen in other post) I am used to seeing these in Chinatown, but nowhere else. I assume I'd need to tap into a Portuguese, pan-Latin, or African one for vanilla? (Actually, I am clueless where vanilla comes from, but I sure doubt it's China!) Tue Mar 02 02:41:34 -0800 2004 1631766 0 Ben P 5 1631842 I think it originated in Mexico/Central America, but is grown throughout the tropical zone. Madagascar was a big producer, Mexico is only starting to come back as Mexican's switched to imitation a long time ago. According to the WSJ the street vendors now sell imitation vanilla in bottles labeled pure to foreign tourists. Tue Mar 02 13:58:59 -0800 2004 1631791 0 muD 6 1631916 I bought a huge bottle of "pure" vanilla in Mexico a couple of years ago. NOT. There is no possible way it's pure vanila. It tastes so weird - SO weird. SOOO weird. It doesn't even come close. It has a flavor that reminds me of cinnamon and chocolate more than vanilla. I will use the rest of the bottle as an air freshener. Wed Mar 03 13:33:17 -0800 2004 1631842 0 Nyleve 3 1631917 I'm curious, what do you use that much vanilla for? Wed Mar 03 13:35:29 -0800 2004 1631753 0 muD 1 1631739 Artificial vanilla extract is ARTIFICIAL vanilla-flavored extract. It will not contain genuine vanilla at all. Vanillin is what is contains (look carefully at the label) - vanillin is pretend vanilla flavor. PURE vanilla extract is produced by putting vanilla beans through some kind of process that extracts the flavor, then this is combined with alcohol and water to create a liquid. Not all vanilla extracts are made equal. The best ones will be extremely expensive. Especially now. I'm not sure what has happened lately, but the price has just gone through the roof. Someone told me that vanilla prices went up because Coca Cola was buying up all the vanilla to make vanilla coke. Which I still cannot believe. But still - it costs a bundle. BUT...it is worth it if you are doing any serious baking or cooking. The flavor of pure vanilla can't be compared with artificial extract which, in my opinion tastes chemical. Treat yourself to the real thing. A small bottle will last you a long time because most recipes don't require much. And once you're hooked - you're hooked. Mon Mar 01 15:52:38 -0800 2004 1631716 0 Nyleve 2 1631742 I'm not a vanilla expert but a very good description of vanilla---real and imitation was featured a couple months ago in an article in Cook's Illustrated magazine. Perhaps the original poster can get a copy. Their findings don't exactly concur with yours. Mon Mar 01 16:31:12 -0800 2004 1631739 0 TrishUntrapped 3 1631814 I'm also not an expert, but I remember the CI article because my wife chastised me when I came home with a 99 cent bottle of CVS drugstore brand imitation vanilla. I pulled out the article which had that as the second place finisher in blind taste-test findings. CI explained that in most recipes that use small quantities, like most baked goods, the difference between imitation and the most pure and expensive imports will not be discernable. Tue Mar 02 10:30:51 -0800 2004 1631742 0 shortorder 4 1631915 I stand by my statement that artificial vanilla tastes chemical. There is a subtle, gentle smoothness that comes from genuine vanilla - completely lacking in the artificial. It's almost as though artificial extract comes through with the flavor components that hit you on the head, but not the ones that sneak up from behind and blow in your ear. I realize that's an insane analogy, but it's the way I taste it. I don't know what the people at CI were smoking when they came to their conclusions. And furthermore...if I'm baking from scratch, using expensive chocolate, good butter, fresh eggs and all that stuff, why on earth would I use artificial vanilla - even if it might taste similar? I simply would not. Wed Mar 03 13:29:31 -0800 2004 1631814 0 Nyleve 2 1631748 There was a bad harvest of vanilla beans and therefore a shortage which has driven up the prices. You might want to check into quality Mexican Vanilla (not the cheap stuff) it is quite fine. I have bought it at Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati. I've also gotten lucky at T.J. Maxx and founf Neilsen Massey at bargain prices. Mon Mar 01 17:32:50 -0800 2004 1631739 0 Candy 3 1631752 T.J. Maxx, the clothing store???? I assume that was a typo for the other T.J.'s (Trader Joe)? Mon Mar 01 18:29:18 -0800 2004 1631748 0 Ben P 4 1631796 Maybe it wasn't a typo, since I got Nielsen Massey at Ross' Dress for Less, but it was way over a year ago, before the vanilla shortage. Tue Mar 02 07:25:17 -0800 2004 1631752 0 Moyn 4 1631829 No, I think Candy DID mean T.J. Maxx....they have a respectable kitchen section with everything from bottled "gourmet items" to knives, pots-n-pans, serving pieces etc. Hit or miss, but you can run across some great finds for the kitchen! Tue Mar 02 12:48:10 -0800 2004 1631752 0 Science Chick 3 1631762 The bad vanilla crop in Madagascar last year has lead to the overnight prosperity of vanilla farmers in Kerala, India. Kerala, which produces some of the best black pepper in the world (among several other spices), also has weather conducive to the growth of vanilla. I've included a link to a BBC report for anyone who might be interested. Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3504211.stm Mon Mar 01 20:31:00 -0800 2004 1631748 0 Shalini Bhalla 4 1631841 Irrational exuberance seems to be a part of the human condition. But good for them in the meantime. Tue Mar 02 13:53:26 -0800 2004 1631762 0 muD 2 1633595 So here is my question. As I was going through a divorce I developed some stress-related food allergies, one of which is to vanilla (much to my chagrin). My allergist could not tell me if vanillin would cause the same reaction--giant itchy red bumps that drive me nuts--and I am afraid to test it out. Any thoughts? Fri Mar 19 18:48:49 -0800 2004 1631739 0 mag 1 1631795 The most comprehensive book on vanilla is: The Vanilla Chef by Patricia Rain. Two others that have an excellent chapter on Vanilla: A History Of The Senses by Diane Ackerman & The Artful Eater by Edward Behr (out of print but can be found used). I will not attempt to plagiarize but all of these questions can be answered completely and without sarcasm. Cultivating vanilla beans has to be one of the most difficult jobs. Often the orchids need to be pollinated with a needle no bigger than that used for acupuncture. Like immitation and altered saffron there are many a bottle of brown liquid that pass for real and are not. immitation vanilla is in everything and everywhere. A historically tremendous flood devastated most of the vanilla groves a few years ago and the industry has not yet recovered. thank you for the piece on India. Vanilla beans that are dry are not bad or too old to use. Vanilla extract is a tincture and the beans can be paired with alcohol in a dark place to make it. I always put the beans in the oven for @ 45 seconds to warm them up a bit because the beans are stuck together in an oily mass (like opium) and are easier to deal with warm. the skin of the bean can be stuck in sugar, and will perfume many a pound of sugar. the skin can also be candied and eaten. I keep my beans wrapped in plastic or a ziplock in the refridgerator. They stay a little plumper this way. Like scallops and sea bass, vanilla beans can be messed with by distibutors. they will soak them in water because they are sold by the pound. vanilla beans "fresh" are moist but crinkly. If they get very dry they can be whirred with sugar in the little "coffee grinder" and there you have your own potent vanilla sugar! the first book can be found by writing: Vanilla Queen Press po box 3206 Santa Cruz, California 95063 www.vanilla.com --Shuna Tue Mar 02 04:10:27 -0800 2004 1631716 0 sailorbuoy 1 1631802 I imagine when you switch to real vanilla, it will be like when you stopped buying Parmesan in a can...you'll wonder how you ever ate the other stuff. AND...you can get a big bottle(maybe a pint?) of real vanilla extract at Sam's Club, and so I would assume other bulk stores as well, for around $8. I think you should use your vanilla beans in: 1) dishes that are pale in color so the tiny seeds are visible 2) dishes that are delicate in flavor so the vanilla itself is the star. i.e., don't put it in the brownies, make vanilla ice cream or cream puff filling, etc. Tue Mar 02 08:53:38 -0800 2004 1631716 0 danna 1 1631965 Pretty sure vanilla plants need to be painstakingly hand pollinated, and once you get the bean (or bean pod actually), it needs to be cured, which is not a trivial process. So no, even in someplace like Tahiti or Madagascar where vanilla orchids grow, you're not likely to just find useable vanilla beans sitting around for the taking. That said, you can get Madagascar, Mexican and Tahitian vanilla beans and extracts at Penzeys and Sur La Table. As for the CI article concluding that imitation was just as good as the real thing, it has been observed elsewhere that every once in a while CI goes off the deep end. This is, in my opinion, a perfect example of that phenomenon. (Or maybe they're just trying to be controversial.) Wed Mar 03 20:36:56 -0800 2004 1631716 0 David Kahn 1 1632027 Excuse me if someone has already mentioned this but Cook's Magazine did a blind taste comparison a couple months ago and they discovered that professional bakers could basically tell no difference between real and imitation vanilla extracts, in both cookies and in a custard recipe. When diluted with milk, the imitation extract actually won the taste test. Go figure. Thu Mar 04 15:09:37 -0800 2004 1631716 0 Boltz2000 2 1632041 Boltz...Just a slight clarification to your otherwise great post, it was Cook's Illustrated not Cook's Magazine that ran the vanilla taste testing in their December, 2003 issue. In case anyone is interested...Watkins sells an excellent double strength imitation vanilla and a clear vanilla that is great for whipped cream and icings where you don't want a slight brown tinge. Their prices are very reasonable too. I consider myself a person of high standards, and never thought in a million years I would recommend a product labelled "imitation." But the truth is, the stuff is good. Try it for yourself and see what you think. Thu Mar 04 15:44:03 -0800 2004 1632027 0 TrishUntrapped