295625 Wed Jan 07 06:49:03 -0800 2004 81 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1625248 Does this happen to anyone else? Are non tea drinkers just plain ignorant? Lately when I eat out and order tea I have been asked if I would like more water for my used tea bag. HELLO! Don't they realize that after one use the tea bag is washed out and no good anymore. Do they run water threw the ground coffee a second time and offer that to patrons ordering a second cup of coffee????? I was recently in Andre's in the Monte Carlo in Las Vegas and they asked me if I wanted more hot water for my used teabag. I was giving the restaurant thumbs up until that incident. I think next time I am going to ask if there is a charge for a fresh teabag when they don't charge for a second cup of coffee. While I am still hot does anyone else notice how badly tea tastes when eating out. The water is never hot enough to begin with. I hate to be like the old movies but I am tempted to bring my own tea with me and just ask for a cup of hot water the next time I eat out! I know this will seem cheap but I like what I like and weak bad tasting tea is not one of them. Wed Jan 07 06:49:03 -0800 2004 0 Richie 1 1625249 I completely agree with you. I think the problem is that some boxes of tea bags say that you can make 2 cups with one bag. I think what they mean is put one bag in 2 cups of water to begin with, which is not the same thing as letting a bag steep twice. Waitstaff always seem to be a bit baffled when I ask for lemon with my hot tea. I know lemon is not used in proper British tea, but it's not that big a stretch. Iced tea is usually served with lemon, after all. I was at a restaurant in Williamsburg, VA last week and I almost had to go to the bar and get my own lemon because the waiter just didn't get it. Wed Jan 07 07:05:18 -0800 2004 1625248 0 maryelizabeth 1 1625250 I completely agree with you. I think the problem is that some boxes of tea bags say that you can make 2 cups with one bag. I think what they mean is put one bag in 2 cups of water to begin with, which is not the same thing as letting a bag steep twice. Waitstaff always seem to be a bit baffled when I ask for lemon with my hot tea. I know lemon is not used in proper British tea, but it's not that big a stretch. Iced tea is usually served with lemon, after all. I was at a restaurant in Williamsburg, VA last week and I almost had to go to the bar and get my own lemon because the waiter just didn't get it. Wed Jan 07 07:07:08 -0800 2004 1625248 0 maryelizabeth 2 1625254 Customarily, a sliver of lemon might served with China black tea (but no milk), milk with Indian/Ceylonese black teas (but no lemon). American tea tastes tend to run towards the latter, hence the prevailing practice. The custom of more water for previously brewed tea really derives from using full-leaf tea, where it is more feasible than with tea bags made most with fannings and dust, where the flavors and oils leach out more quickly and intensely in the first brewing. Wed Jan 07 08:29:51 -0800 2004 1625250 0 Karl S. 2 1625325 Lemon is too used in proper British tea! I hope there's someone from England on this board to back me up -- but on my visit to England in a very nice hotel I was served, without being asked, a dish of thin lemon slices with the tea service. I think it also depends on the variety of tea that is being served, though I'm not knowledgeable to know which ones are which. Any UKers around to help? Wed Jan 07 14:01:52 -0800 2004 1625250 0 Mrs. Smith 3 1626324 Luckily, my roommate is from England is able to set the record straight: Ok I can say with reasonable authority as a Brit (although not a tea conisseur) that lemon generally be would be served with bog standard tea. This would probably include most of the brands you can get in supermarkets and I guess depending on your personal preference you could add it to "English Breakfast", Darjeeling, Assam, Earl Grey, Lady Grey tea etc although ifthe flavour is delicate and/or distinctive anyway you may not want to add lemon. PS Anyway what you American's call tea tastes like dishwater to most Brits. It is bland and has no taste (as a non-tea drinker I can only go by what people tell me) Wed Jan 14 13:32:33 -0800 2004 1625325 0 LittleWave 4 1626326 A British friend of mine used to call the very weak tea some people favour (where you steep the tea a few seconds--basically, coloured hot water) "fairy pee." There was also a ruder name she used, but I won't print it here. Wed Jan 14 14:01:06 -0800 2004 1626324 0 Colleen 1 1625252 Must be a thing from student days but I always get more than one cup from a bag, I just keep adding hot water. The taste really doesn't diminish but then, maybe I'm not that fussy. Wed Jan 07 08:10:02 -0800 2004 1625248 0 LikestoEatout 2 1625253 I just prefer my cuppa tea very strong that's why I can't steep the bag a second time. I wonder if I can bring my own tea with me the next time I eat out? Does anyone have an opinion on this? I guess I am just becoming a tea snob in my old age! Thanks,Richie Wed Jan 07 08:18:14 -0800 2004 1625252 0 Richie 3 1625256 I had a couple great aunts who used to bring their own tea bags. I think it's terribly rude. The purpose of a restaurant is to make money by providing food and drink services. By bringing your own tea, you are taking away their profit in a much ruder, more obvious way than just not ordering any. Perhaps if you are a regular at certain restaurants you can suggest they carry a certain brand or mention your preferences to the manager. As always, just IMHO. Thank you. Wed Jan 07 08:52:02 -0800 2004 1625253 0 Bride of the Juggler 4 1625334 Oh, I don't know. Maybe in our politically correct society tea will become the "new" wine. That said, people bring their own wine to restaurants when the list isn't up to snuff and pay a corkage fee, so I don't see why one shouldn't order the restaurants tea and pay the price and use their own bag. Wed Jan 07 14:27:28 -0800 2004 1625256 0 sylvesterrussell 3 1625299 Richie, if you are going to be a tea snob in your old age, why not explore loose teas. My real rant is that in even most of the top restaurants you are served tea bags. I've been grinding my teeth when I am at a really pricy restaurant and their idea of tea is to roll out a wooden, velvet lined box with a selection of teas. I am NOT impressed. Once you get into fresh loose tea, you will never go back. It is a true gourmet experience. Ask on your local board where you buy good quality loose leaf tea. If you are in the Los Angeles area there was just a recent link about tea that was excellent. Your mention of Las Vegas makes me suspect you might be in that area. I will provide the link if you like. If you are not in an area where you are accessable to loose tea, I can provide some good links. If you like strong tea, you might explore pu-erh. It tastes like potting soil, but good potting soil. Very healthy for your heart as well. I'm kind of curious. Since you are so particular about your tea, do you have a favorite bagged tea? If you do explore loose tea, you do need an excellent tea vendor. Tea is seasonal and you need to be assured that the tea is fresh. If you stick with tea bags, then stop being a tea wimp. Ask what you want. Tell them you like really hot water and would they be good enough to put the water in a microwave or boil it. If you are pleasant, most servers will accomodate you. When the ask if you like more hot water, then also indicate you would like a fresh tea bag because you like really strong tea. If people understand why you need something, most of the time they will accomodate you. Most people reuse their tea bags. Servers are not mind readers. On the subjet of loose tea, you can reuse it multiple times without it loosing it's punch (depends on the type though). As one poster indicated, you do rinse the tea the first time around and discard the water. One of the reasons is that it removes any loose particles or oils that may have formed in processing. Wed Jan 07 12:57:14 -0800 2004 1625253 0 Stanley Stephan 4 1625322 Thanks for all the good information on tea, Stanley. Your posts are always informative. I never learned, even from my insufferably tea-snobby British friends (they are nice in other ways :)to rinse my leaves once first. That makes perfect sense, and can combine the warm-the-pot-with-just-boiled-water step with the initial tea-leaf rinsing step. Thanks, I will start doing that. Just a note on terrible tea service even in excellent restaurants here in the US. It's so true. I've been to restaurants that would only serve freshly-ground shade-grown excellent very expensive coffee, but who will bring you a little foil packet of "English Breakfast" teabag with your fancy china cup of hot water. It's truly sad. My only consolation is that, at least, in England the coffee service is almost as bad as the tea service is in the US (but not quite). I've had 50-pound dinners and asked for coffee after dinner, and been served INSTANT coffee. It's everywhere in England. That's what most people think of as coffee -- like most Americans think of tea as coming from a teabag. There are a few exceptions (I was lucky enough once to have both tea and coffee -- not together but at different meals -- at the Dorchester hotel and they served me real coffee there) but most of the time, getting a "cup of coffee" means you're getting Nescafe swill that the greasiest diner in America wouldn't serve. It's really gross. The worst are the "cafes" which are sort of like diners in America. They have great tea and universally disgusting instant coffee. On a few cold mornings in London I actually longed for Starbucks, believe it or not! I learned to drink tea in the morning there, not just in the afternoon , since I knew I could get a good cup. So it's just the prevailing drink of most of the country, I guess, which determines the quality of service in most restaurants. On an SF note -- Stanley, where do you buy your tea here in town? Wed Jan 07 13:55:09 -0800 2004 1625299 0 Mrs. Smith 5 1625344 Really, what is the hold Nescafe has on Europe? Not just Nescafe, but INSTANT Nescafe. My favorite tea spot in the Bay Area is Celadon Tea in Albany. They educated me about loose leaf tea. They currently supply Chez Panisse. You can go in and sample various types of teas. The first sample is free, subsequent samples are $2. The fee is waived if you buy the tea to take home. The same $2 will buy you a taste of a rare expensive tea as the more common and less expensive varieties. In addition, the staff is a fount of knowledge about tea. Imperial Court (in Chinatown and the Ferry Building) has an large variety of tea, but I never found them helpful about educating the customer about tea. Yes, they have occasional classes, but I learmed more at Celadon for free. Here's the link to Celadon (which takes mail orders). It has the address. They are closed Monday\ and Tuesday. It is also an EXTREMELY relaxing place to kill some time. Link: http://www.celadontea.com/ Wed Jan 07 15:01:28 -0800 2004 1625322 0 Stanley Stephan 4 1625324 While I agree with you in terms of the truly horrid brews I've had at otherwise swanky joints, Stanley's right-- if you ask, perhaps in a kindly "please indulge my eccentricity" way, waitstaff should accomodate you. Although there are lots of super luxe places that should know better about tea, it's basically true that servers are not trained in proper after dinner drinks, and that Americans in general are really only beginning to pay attention to proper tea. This ignorance is a shame, but shouldn't necessarily be held against the waitperson. (The restaurant, maybe, the server, probably not.) If you think of your preferences for tea (and explaining it to the waitstaff nicely) as an opportunity to educate, then perhaps the waiter will remark to the manager, who may think about it a bit more than he might otherwise. From there, it's a revolution! : ) I wouldn't bring your own tea-- either put up with what they have, after explaining your preferences, (and mentioning to the manager at any place where you're a regular), or do without. It'd be like bringing your own steak and asking the chef to cook it. Good luck! Wed Jan 07 14:01:28 -0800 2004 1625299 0 EMDB 4 1625335 Thanks Stanley. I am the south western CT area just outside New Haven. I really enjoy Tetley British Blend. I think it's very strong but not like potting soil...LOL. I have tried Starbucks Tazo Awake and it's very earthy tasting and it's ok but not what I prefer. What are some good loose teas that I can purchase in a grocery store or maybe even at a gourmet shop? Thanks,Richie Wed Jan 07 14:30:07 -0800 2004 1625299 0 Richie 5 1625367 New Haven ... whew. I grew up in Waterbury, Ct. We had only one Chinese restaurant at the time and it was owned by Caucasians. The next time you are in NYC, stop by a real tea room. The Manhattan board has discussions about tea occasionaly. Do a post before your trip and find the most novice friendly tea house. There should be tea sampling. There is a Ten Ren in NYC. Not my favorite, but they do tastings. Prior to World War II, there was a tea room in the Empire State building that sold over 100 types of tea. The political situation afterward cut US ties with China and easy accesablity to good tea. I can't recommend a grocery market or gourmet shop blend. They usually are too old and the quality is not that good. Most green teas are only good for 3 months and the season is spring and late fall. Black teas usually keep about six months. Based on your current prefernce, I would guess you would want to stick to red/black teas before branching out. If you have it in your area, Republic of Tea is a waste of money. However, some other hounds might have found a loose leaf grocery store tea that you might like. Otherwise order on line. In one of the posts on this thread, I have a link to Celadon Tea. You might enjoy the Lichee Red Black Tea. Also pay attention to the grade of tea. Premium, regular and 'A' are different qualities. So the same variety of tea will be better depending on the grade. Taiwan has tea competitions where plums are awarded for quality. The more plums, the better the tea quality. If you see 'competition grade" tea on a menu, try it. I'm blanking on which is the best, but if you shoot Celadon an e-mail, they can probably tell you. Price is an indication as well. You could also tell them the type of tea you are currently enjoying and could they recommend something to your taste. E-mail that you are new to loose leaf tea. They are extremely helpful. I'm still a tea novice. It has been a fun hobby however. I hope some more experienced tea drinksrs out there will suggest a loose tea that would match your tastes. Gary Soup, are you reading? Here's a link to tea shops and coffee shops in Connecticut. It didn't look too helpful, but you neve know. While WILLOUGHBY'S looked the most promising, I would guess that it is similar to a Starbuck experience. and for fun sometimes, do try a pu-ehr. You either love it or hate it. It is one of the few teas that is aged ... 20, 30, 40 years. I'd do this in a tasting though. pu-ehr can be really pricy. Link: http://www.culinarymenus.com/coffee.htm Wed Jan 07 16:04:08 -0800 2004 1625335 0 Stanley Stephan 6 1625369 oh, oh, oh, I forgot. I was looking through the Connecticut Tea shops. You might enjoy a Lapsang Souchong. I saw it on the Simpson and Vail site. It has a unique smokey taste to it. One of my favorites. Anyway, Simpson and Vail seems to have a nice selection. Don't know how close Brookfield is to New Haven. Link: http://www.svtea.com/bt_china.asp Wed Jan 07 16:14:28 -0800 2004 1625367 0 Stanley Stephan 6 1625380 I would recommend the Chaiwalla Tea shop in Salisbury (NW Corner of CT) for a proper tea service. Harney & Sons Tea company is located in Salisbury but I don't think they have a company store or cafe. Wed Jan 07 17:05:30 -0800 2004 1625367 0 sarahoc 7 1625423 Harney's does have a shop and a tasting room, though not a cafe. This link is to their old shop, but I recall reading that they'd moved and gotten a bigger shop and tasting room not too far away. Link: http://www.harney.com/visitus.html Wed Jan 07 19:24:12 -0800 2004 1625380 0 EMDB 6 1625420 I really appreciate the time you took to write all that! There is a place somewhere in CT,I think in the northwest corner called Harney and Sons? and I think they blend their own teas as well. Willoughby's in New Haven is mostly coffee but I will check out the tea the next time I am in New Haven. As far as Waterbury goes I have a friend up that way and am up there all the time. There is a new bakery that got voted best cookie bakery in CT called Sweet Marias. Check out there webiste below. Thanks,Richie Link: http://www.sweet-marias.com/ Wed Jan 07 19:13:09 -0800 2004 1625367 0 Richie 4 1625429 upton tea and tealuxe are available on-line. i've been ordering from upton for years and they're great, both in tearms of selection and service. i have several tealuxe locally, so i can't speak to their on-line service, but their selection is quite good, though not nearly as esoteric as upton's. here are the sites: www.uptontea.com www.tealuxe.com Wed Jan 07 21:01:09 -0800 2004 1625299 0 lynn 2 1625286 If you are not drinking crap standard food service tea from Sysco, you can rewet your teabag. Good teabags can be rewetted at least once, at least in my opinion. I also wanted to say that the tea service at Chez Panisse is excellent. We ordered a tisane of lemonbalm, and they brought fresh leaves in a pot of water at the perfect temperature, with warmed cups. It is the only time when I have not been in either a tearoom or a teahouse that I have gotten good tea service in a restaurant. Wed Jan 07 12:18:33 -0800 2004 1625252 0 BarbaraF 3 1625292 I am told by Chinese friends who do not use tea bags, that the first wetting of good tea leaves is not the best pot of tea--they rewet several times. I am told that the second or third pot of tea from rewet leaves is the best. This obviously does not count for tea bags, most of which contain crumbled leavings swept up from the tea processor's floor, most likely. Wed Jan 07 12:26:09 -0800 2004 1625286 0 BarbaraF 1 1625255 OK. Having been in the rest. bus. for 20yrs.... Just so you know.....it is a known fact that 90% of tea drinkers who order tea in restaurants.....ask for more hot water. Waiters across the country CRINGE when you order tea. MOST restaurants (tea houses excluded) are NOT set up for proper tea service. I know this is not your problem and that you do deserve your tea the way you want it, these are just facts. Trust me. I am also a tea drinker :) Another one that drives waiters crazy is that southerners don't get that people in the northern states generally do not understand the facination with "sweet tea." The rest I work at now has a seperate tea kettle going high for tea and we warm the tea cups, etc. but it's the only place I've known to do that. Wed Jan 07 08:33:48 -0800 2004 1625248 0 orla 2 1625275 "The rest I work at now has a seperate tea kettle going high for tea and we warm the tea cups, etc. but it's the only place I've known to do that. ...." Just wanting to know if the place you work is in NYC. And if so, the name. Wed Jan 07 11:16:05 -0800 2004 1625255 0 HLing 1 1625257 I usually have good luck having tea in Indian restaurants. Other dedicated tea drinkers who understand that the temp of the water is key. Wed Jan 07 09:01:27 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Siobhan 1 1625258 That happened to me yesterday! I have some teas from China that are leaf teas, not particles in a bag and you can do that with those teas. But a with a bag, one go around is it for me. I will remember to request another bag to go with the water next time. Wed Jan 07 09:17:49 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Sweet Pea 1 1625263 Restaurants in the US don't pay any attention to good tea service, its true in almost all restaurants, regardless of how high end they are or how good the food and service is in other regards. Bring your own tea bag, ask for and pay for tea and just use your teabag. If you pay for the first cup of tea, I don't think it is rude to discreetly use your own tea bags. If the restaurant asks about it, just tell them that you are particular about your tea, and their tea service SUCKS! Just kidding, if you tell them you are just picky and hope they don't mind, I don't see a problem. Except that you will still get lukewarm water in a cold cup. Wed Jan 07 09:53:08 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Fred B 1 1625267 Most restaurants don't have a clue when it comes to tea. A nice place that offers espresso and a variety of coffee may give you a Sysco teabag or worse a selection of teabags where only the herbal teas remain. Since my preference is for weaker tea my peeve is when the teabag has been steeping somewhere for ten minutes before I get it. I carry teabags in my purse just in case. I haven't used them in restaurants but the suggestion that you just pay for their teabag and use your own is a reasonable one. If it is a restaurant that you dine in frequently you might politely explain the niceties of tea service. Wed Jan 07 10:10:45 -0800 2004 1625248 0 AGM/Cape Cod 1 1625281 I agree completely with everything you say. What galls me is that in every restaurant I've been in, my husband can have as many cups of coffee as he wants for no extra charge. I am charged full price every time I ask for a fresh tea bag--I don't see them charging my husband for using fresh coffee grounds. And yes, the water in most restaurants and even places that sell coffee and tea, is not hot enough. As soon as I see a pot of water sitting on a burner, keeping warm for tea, I leave. If the water is not boiling when it hits the tea leaves, it is not hot enough. I patronize Starbucks as it is one of the few coffee places that actually has good tea (Tazo) and makes it with boiling water, AND--does not put it in a styrofoam cup. I have tried to tell coffee drinkers that styrofoam, in spite of its insulating qualities, gives tea a distinct off taste. They never believe me because it doesn't seem to do that to coffee--or maybe they don't notice. Wed Jan 07 12:03:54 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Colleen 2 1625285 Generally I prefer Indian tea, and I like my tea strong enough so that the spoon almost stands up in the cup. Then I add milk and a small amount of sugar. So no, adding hot water isn't good enough. I've been told that's more the British way--make it really strong, then add milk to cut the strength a little. More delicately flavoured teas are overwhelmed by milk, but are enhanced by a little lemon. Actually, this thread recalls two of the most passionately debated subjects in the letters column of "New Scientist." One was whether milk should go into the cup before or after the tea was poured. The other was why do tea leaves floating on the surface (if using loose tea) tend to congregate at the centre of the cup? The editors finally had to tell their readership, after some weeks, that they absolutely refused to publish anymore letters on the subject. Note: "New Scientist" is a weekly popular science magazine published in Britain. A few steps up from magazines like Omni, but more readable than Scientific American. Wed Jan 07 12:13:44 -0800 2004 1625281 0 Colleen 3 1625316 I'd be interested to know if there was any consensus on the milk in the cup before or after the tea was added. I've never gotten a good answer to why one way or the other on this question. My British friends (I have two) are so bigotted on this subject (they INSIST on putting the milk in first) that I can't even talk about it with them. They think that the fact that I even question it means I'm some sort of a philistine. When I serve tea to people at my home (I do it the proper way, with loose tea in a pot with more hot water, lemon, milk not cream, and sugar) I put milk in first and then pour in the tea and hand them the cup. This is the opposite of what I learned in Northern Minnesota from the legions of serious Norwegian and Swedish coffee drinkers (and if you think the British are headstrong about their tea, spend time with a Swede talking about coffee and that'll learn you :) in which you NEVER served coffee with anything but cream, and you NEVER would presume to know how much cream a person would take. The proper way to serve coffee, I was taught, was to always let the drinker add his own cream (and sugar) so he or she could control the amount. So you handed or placed before the drinker a completely black unsweetened cup of (lava-hot, of course) coffee, and the drinker added his or her own cream and sugar. Ah, beverage service headaches :) Wed Jan 07 13:35:18 -0800 2004 1625285 0 Mrs. Smith 4 1625342 Thoough of profoundly Anglo-Saxon heritage, I must take issue with your British friends' practice here. No one can know exactly how much milk a person takes (and it is bound to differ greatly, from person to person and from tea to tea), tradition nothwithstanding. I am definitely of the "tea first, milk added individually" persuasion. I have had some vile tea in England, too - on one occasion, it was tea made with 10 bags of Tetley, allowed to steep indefinitely. Adding plenty of milk was the only way to make the mess semi-palatable. Wed Jan 07 14:59:49 -0800 2004 1625316 0 Sir Gawain 5 1625382 I don't recall there being any consensus on either issue--probably why the editors cut off debate. But the back-and-forth was often witty and amusing on both subjects. One of the explanations I remember were that the milk should be added after the tea was poured; otherwise, cold milk in a warmed cup, then hot tea might make the cup crack. One explanation put forward was a cultural one--upper classes added the milk afterward, as they tended not to allow the tea to "stew" (steep a long time) and the addition of milk/cream was more finely adjusted to the drinker's palate and the more delicate brew. The lower classes tend to make tea much stronger, either letting it steep longer, or using more tea. More milk was added to cut the strength. Often, the writer explained, when you go to "working-class" cafes and so on, you will be asked "White or Black?" and your tea will be brought to you with or without milk. "She's/He's very milk in first" is an expression indicating the person is low-class. Opinion was pretty firmly divided on the subject, but this last explanation makes the most sense to me. Evidently, according to the other posters here, I'm low-class myself, as I prefer strong Assam tea, with a long steeping time, with milk. Wed Jan 07 17:16:34 -0800 2004 1625342 0 Colleen 6 1625390 Very interesting post, thank you! I had no doubts as to my peerage, but it's good to be reassured thus :D Wed Jan 07 17:34:24 -0800 2004 1625382 0 Sir Gawain 7 1625409 Glad to help. :-) All the people on the Scots/English side of my family were working class or military. So, I guess I come by my tastes honestly, too. Wed Jan 07 18:27:39 -0800 2004 1625390 0 Colleen 6 1625394 Another reason I pour in the milk after the tea is that I found it quite charming when Mme Swann added milk to her afternoon cup of tea stating she wanted "just a little cloud". Ah, that Odette. Irresistible. Wed Jan 07 17:50:17 -0800 2004 1625382 0 Sir Gawain 7 1625408 Odette Swann? I don't know the name. Explain? And yes, I do like that phrase. Wed Jan 07 18:25:59 -0800 2004 1625394 0 Colleen 8 1625465 I do NOT swear to this answer because I've never read the books but I believe that the reference is to Marcel Proust's "Remembrance of Things Past"--the first volume of which is entitled "Swann's Way," no doubt referring to a family of that name. Odette, I think, was the name of the maid. Can someone who knows this stuff chime in? GB Thu Jan 08 08:13:45 -0800 2004 1625408 0 Gypsy Boy 9 1625494 Thank you. I have a long list of authors I've been meaning to get to, and Proust is on that list. It piqued my interest because Odette is my grandmother's name. Thu Jan 08 11:34:22 -0800 2004 1625465 0 Colleen 9 1625507 Almost. It is from Proust. Odette is a fashionable Paris courtesan who becomes the obsession of M. Swann. Eventually he marries her to the disgust of his friends & family and she becomes the notorious Mme. Swann. Their daughter, Gilberte, in turn becomes the object of desire of the narrator, little Marcel. Odette is, like other society ladies of her era, taken with all things English; she inserts little English phrases into her speech and, of course, takes afternoon tea every day. By the way, there is a whole cookbook based on the numerous food passages in In Search Of Lost Time. I don't have it, as i'd rather finish the novels first and also, I am painfully aware that my cookings skills are far inferior to those of Francoise, the family cook and Marcel's feared guardian. Thu Jan 08 12:29:52 -0800 2004 1625465 0 Sir Gawain 9 1625514 Well Odette/Odile were the names of the white/black swan maidens in the ballet Swan Lake. Is it some kind of reference to that? Thu Jan 08 13:06:33 -0800 2004 1625465 0 Mrs. Smith 4 1625730 Interesting you used the word "Philistine" -- I remember reading a novel by a British author in which the elderly English lady stated that "only Philistines put the milk in first" -- her primary objection (which makes good sense) is that by putting cold milk in the cup you completely negate any value of warming the cup and that when the hot tea hits the cold milk it "kills the aroma." With that in mind, plus the fact that I use milk to adjust the strength of my tea, I have to come down on the tea first side. Fri Jan 09 14:19:24 -0800 2004 1625316 0 Ruth Lafler 5 1625745 Oh I know, Ruth, the more I delve into this issue the more contradicting opinions I find. I've heard a well-held and probably true historical fact -- that in the old days (as in like 200-300 years ago) fancy bone china was so delicate and translucent, that pouring hot tea into it could definitely crack it, if not shatter it! This kind of eggshell-thin china cup would definitely NOT be warmed before people drank out of it -- warming an empty cup of this kind would be the quick way to breaking something beautiful and expensive. So adding the cold (probably room temperature in those days, before refrigeration) milk to the cup before pouring in the hot tea made perfect sense, and was related to the survival of the tea service! Things have changed in the ensuing centuries, and, unless you are using antique china cups, even the finest, fanciest, and most expensive Wedgewood, Limoges, or Sevres -- or even Flora Danica is now sturdy and well-fired enough that pouring boiling-hot tea directly into it will not crack or shatter it. I also have investigated a little of the social-strata tie-in of the "milk in first or not" question. If you recall in the recent movie Gosford Park, the Kristin Scott Thomas character (very high class and snooty) says pointedly to the Stephen Fry character (lower class policeman and delightfully clueless) when he is pouring her a cup of tea "Would you mind very much putting the milk in after?". He says 'of course" as if he should have anticipated that from someone like her. I've found another example in the book "The Go-Between" by L.P. Hartley of the very high-class viscount insisting on his milk going in "after". Although, if the hostess is pouring it for you across the room or tea table, and you don't get to decide the amount of milk yourself, I don't know how it could possibly matter (unless the fat molecules being scalded by one way or another is true -- I've tried both ways in a blind taste test and I CANNOT smell or taste a difference). So, it appears at least in the early half of the 20th century that it was a class issue -- possibly related to the strength of the tea drunk in different levels of society, and also the perceived social niceties in tea service. I'll be so interested to hear from Brits who may know more about what is considered socially high and low class today on this issue. Matters like this switch often -- and what might have been considered vulgar in the 1930s may be the opposite today -- I don't know. For now, when I serve tea to my English friends I will do what I know to be their preference -- milk in first. Everyone else I will ask first, pour second. With Americans (who are by far the majority of my guests:) I will explain it to them -- and they will probably just want to put their milk in after as they do with coffee. For myself, I've always put it in after, since I can judge the color of the tea better. I just don't let my opinionated British friends see me do so :) Fri Jan 09 15:29:54 -0800 2004 1625730 0 Mrs. Smith 2 1625287 At the risk of sounding like a snob, real tea drinkers don't use tea bag teas. The lowest quality teas and tea leaf crumbs are used in them. You might as well use them a second time. Wed Jan 07 12:18:49 -0800 2004 1625281 0 Sant 3 1625296 Depends on convenience and a lot of other things. I use bags because they are convenient, and as I brew my tea fairly strong, re-use of a bag is simply not feasible. Getting loose tea in most places is nearly impossible, and I don't like coffee. At home I flip between bags and loose. There is definitely a quality difference, I grant you. But even among bagged teas there are distinct quality differences, believe me. Wed Jan 07 12:31:35 -0800 2004 1625287 0 Colleen 4 1625301 and I find I like this tea very much. I let the bag steep as long as 10 minutes and the tea tastes very strong. Wed Jan 07 13:03:44 -0800 2004 1625296 0 Richie 5 1625414 Although other posters have sneered at it, I like Red Rose premium, in bags or as a loose tea. I've tried the Tetley British Blend, and I also like it. I generally steep mine for about 5 to 10 minutes as well. There aren't shops that sell good tea here in Calgary, and the few that exist seem to be in areas I never get to--unlike Vancouver, where they're located in more centralized areas. Wed Jan 07 18:38:44 -0800 2004 1625301 0 Colleen 6 1625485 Asian/Indian markets are great places to buy good quality teas at reasonable prices. Thu Jan 08 10:49:00 -0800 2004 1625414 0 Sant 7 1625493 Thank you for the advice. I will check next time--for some reason, I always go to Indian markets for spices and herbs, and of course, various treats, but I never think of looking for tea. Thu Jan 08 11:25:50 -0800 2004 1625485 0 Colleen 6 1625513 I don't sneer at Red Rose! I really like it -- it reminds me of my youth. We drank it in both loose leaf and bagged varieties (we used the bags for iced tea, which my grandmother insisted was the best way -- loose tea for hot tea). Listen, for 1970s Minnesota this was pretty darn gourmet for most people! :) Drinking "Canadian" tea -- and hot tea at that, amidst a legion of Swedish maniacal coffee fiends. My grandma and mom made cambric tea for us when we were kids, and I was usually the only one to really like it. She'd heat up milk and add perhaps 1/3 strong tea to 2/3 milk, add some sugar or honey, and sometimes grate in cinnamon and nutmeg. It was a warm, comforting brew for a kid that wasn't too caffeinated. It was pretty standard when we were sick to have tea and toast too, though if you were sick with a cold the tea was served strong and without sugar or milk. The flavor of Red Rose takes me back. And I childishly love those little ceramic animals that sometimes come in the package. I have the entire "Arctic Animals" series from my childhood, still. My mom would even let me arrange them on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. It was somehow appropriate in our cold hometown, even if it wasn't exactly the abode of polar bears, muskoxen, or arctic foxes. Sneer not, oh tea drinkers, until you've tried Red Rose. Especially the loose tea -- it's a good, uncomplicated, well-balanced and beautiful-looking (it does have a lovely red-brown hue) plain tea for everyday drinking! Thu Jan 08 13:03:19 -0800 2004 1625414 0 Mrs. Smith 7 1625525 "Sneer not, oh tea drinkers, until you've tried Red Rose. Especially the loose tea -- it's a good, uncomplicated, well-balanced and beautiful-looking (it does have a lovely red-brown hue) plain tea for everyday drinking!" Exactly. And what a lovely memoir! I'd forgotten about those little ceramic animals--that brought back some memories. As you say, they were much coveted. I tend to forget that Red Rose is a Canadian blend. I've applied to a few US universities for their Ph.D. programs for next year. It's just struck me that if I'm successful, I will be deprived of Red Rose tea! Perhaps I can get my family to send me care packages. Either that, or I may have to reconsider... Thu Jan 08 13:43:19 -0800 2004 1625513 0 Colleen 8 1625531 Depending on where you are, in "better" grocery stores in the US you can buy Red Rose! I was able to find the loose variety in stores in both the Chicago/Evanston area and now in San Francisco. You may not be out of luck! Good luck in grad school! Thu Jan 08 15:08:50 -0800 2004 1625525 0 Mrs. Smith 8 1625957 If you get desperate and have cravings between care packages, there are a couple of sites that serve ex-pats and people that miss Canuck goodies. http://canadianfavourites.com comes to mind. Nothing like getting a big box of Red Rose, Thrills gum, Aero bars, Coffee Crisps and ketchup-flavoured chips in the mail :) P.S. American Kit Kats do taste different than Canadian ones. Link: http://canadianfavourites.com/ Mon Jan 12 07:20:49 -0800 2004 1625525 0 Don 9 1625973 Thanks very much for the link (and the info about the Kit Kat bars)! I had no idea something like this existed. And don't forget... Smarties! Mon Jan 12 11:01:15 -0800 2004 1625957 0 Colleen 2 1625352 I read somewhere about teas that call for boiling water and teas that call for hot but never boiling water. Sorry, but I'm new at the game and can't remember the specifics. Anyone know? Wed Jan 07 15:32:48 -0800 2004 1625281 0 Sweet Pea 3 1625413 My friend owns a tea shop here in San Francisco and for his fine white oolong and other green teas, he insists that you NEVER use boiling water, in fact many degrees under boiling in order to not kill the delicate taste. Also, he says that the second and third brewings of such teas are better than the first. For what it's worth. Wed Jan 07 18:36:51 -0800 2004 1625352 0 Celeste 4 1625417 Certainly. Green teas are an entirely different class from the black teas. Wed Jan 07 18:41:58 -0800 2004 1625413 0 Colleen 1 1625293 What is proper tea service worth to you? i.e what is a reasonable price for correct tea service (hot water, big pot, good quality loose tea, strainer, milk, lemon, sugar) at a cafe (not restaurant)? Wed Jan 07 12:27:22 -0800 2004 1625248 0 JudiAU 2 1625312 I'd pay $4 - $5 for that; but I must be able to choose from several different types of black tea (not the usual fruity-herby crap). For single-estate, very high-quality teas I'd pay up to $8 a pot. Wed Jan 07 13:23:53 -0800 2004 1625293 0 Sir Gawain 3 1625416 I agree with Sir Gawain. I've paid $4 to $5 in an upscale restaurant, only to be served bagged tea--and usually in fouffy herbal/flower blends or a very poor quality bagged tea. For that price I think they could manage leaf tea. Wed Jan 07 18:40:58 -0800 2004 1625312 0 Colleen 4 1625428 Very helpful. We have a friend opening a cafe and we have been trying to get them to consider real tea service. Wed Jan 07 20:41:59 -0800 2004 1625416 0 JudiAU 5 1625439 If they wish to do that, it should be advertised as a feature. There is one here in Calgary (at the opposite end of the city from me, alas!) which specializes in tea service. They serve dozens of varieties of teas, and from what I've heard, properly. They also serve sandwiches, cakes, biscuits, and so on. What kind of cafe are your friends planning to open? Too far the other way is the Empress Hotel in Victoria, B.C. They're well known for their traditional high teas. A few years ago, we were there, and thought we'd do the tourist thing and have high tea, even if it was a little pricey. Until we saw the price... $50 Canadian per person. Yes, sandwiches and cake and so on were included, but it was still pretty steep. We decided against it, but the staff were kind enough to let us peep in at the stained glass dome that is the ceiling over the tea room--and I had really wanted to see that. Definitely worth a look. Wed Jan 07 23:07:10 -0800 2004 1625428 0 Colleen 6 1625509 Small cafe with local, often organic ingredients, organic chicken, handmade cheese, good bread. Coffee from a local roaster. Unusual sodas in bottles. Several places like this in Los Angles. A little more expensive than the average cafe, but everything under $10. Tea would not be a specialty, she just wants to do things *right.* I keep telling her that raising her quality will allow her to raise her prices somewhat. They won't be serving afternoon tea. Thu Jan 08 12:43:51 -0800 2004 1625439 0 JudiAU 7 1625512 Tell her that she *should* make a big deal out of her proper tea preparation and quality leaves. Encourage her to use either those French-press thingies or, which is simpler, basket-type tea filters which hold the leaves for the appropriate steeping time and are easily removed once the time is up. There are many types of teapots that could be used for this - Chatsfords come with their own baskets, but IMO the best filters are the Teeli (German) ones, available from www.speciateas.com (come in 3 sizes I think). Encourage her to list origins and descriptions of the teas - such as "honey-like, with biscuity-nutty notes; milk enhances the natural sweetness of the tea" or "light and floral, with delicate nutty aftertaste". People really like this kind of stuff, comparing notes, choosing favorites... It's fun. My experience is that almost anyone likes trying a new thing, especially if it's something slightly (but not intimidatingly) unusual, and practicing their own powers of discernment. If she uses good teas (water quality and storage are important too!), she can definitely get away with charging quite a bit more than a couple of dollars per small pot. Thu Jan 08 12:58:03 -0800 2004 1625509 0 Sir Gawain 8 1625517 Thanks for the input.I appreciate it and I know she will too. Thu Jan 08 13:19:09 -0800 2004 1625512 0 JudiAU 7 1625528 Definitely agree with Sir Gawain. Even if your friend just likes to do things "right," she should still make it clear on the menu or whatever, that this is good-quality tea done right. I would appreciate knowing that in advance, and as a dedicated tea drinker, would be happy to pay extra. There's a fine line, of course, between upping the prices commensurate with quality, and making them so high that is scares people away. There is a place here at the university, started by a guy as a retirement project. The food is simple but good quality. His prices are a little higher than other vendors on campus, but not unreasonable. He does a brisk business because his food is so good. If your friend isn't sure, start with a few varieties of good tea--better than having too many and their not being used before they go stale. Perhaps a few straight black or green teas, and a few of the more exotic types--say a smoked black tea (Lapsang Suchong I think?). Your friend should likely discuss this with a tea merchant, who can tell her what the most popular varieties are. Thu Jan 08 14:00:15 -0800 2004 1625509 0 Colleen 1 1625304 The fact that they give you a teabag (and you accepted without protest) should be a clue. No tea drinker would accept teabags unless really really desparate. Have you ever opened a teabag and see what's inside? Wed Jan 07 13:06:03 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Peter 2 1625386 Actually, I stopped bothering with restaurant tea a long time ago, for the reasons given--water not hot enough, poor quality tea, unfair pricing, and so on. And yes, I know what's in a tea bag. But, as I have said, I haven't seen a restaurant--even an upscale one that serves any better. I consider it unfair, since I don't like coffee, that I therefore cannot have a hot drink in a restaurant before or after my meal. Perhaps the sundry snide comments about those of us who use/accept teabags and the implication that we should instead go without is really a giant conspiracy on the part of restaurants to make us ALL drink coffee. Much more convenient for the restaurants. Hey, maybe it's bigger than that--it's a conspiracy by all coffee drinkers. They'll deprive us of tea, and force us all into drinking coffee so that they don't have to make tea for friends or relatives who visit. Yeah, that's it. Wed Jan 07 17:24:34 -0800 2004 1625304 0 Colleen 1 1625308 Agree with posters about real tea lovers drinking loose teas. Also, there is a long tradition in England of topping up the pot with more hot water after the first round. Real, good tea should never be overbrewed or it develops a tannic flavor, which some people might associated with "strong tea", but is undesirable to most tea lovers. My advice is, if you really care about tea, don't order it in an American restaurant. All the English tea lovers I know, including my husband, disdain Ameerican tea bag service. It's nothing like the real thing. This might sound snooty, but IMO anyone who habitually drinks warm water with a Red Rose tea bag dunked in it probably doesn't know what tea should taste like. Wed Jan 07 13:12:01 -0800 2004 1625248 0 lucia 1 1625319 You can take your own tea with you and pray that the water is at least hot but it almost NEVER happens in the United States than you get a full-size pot. A teensy little doll-size pot holding enough water for two five-ounce cups of tea is just adorable to look at but IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH. Wed Jan 07 13:49:54 -0800 2004 1625248 0 N Tocus 1 1625389 I got the link below from the BBC site and found it amusing. I have always felt that milk-first tea tasted better, though I'm not sure I could tell if the tea was milk-first or milk-after in a blind taste test. Adams' theory makes sense to me and I have the authority of my British host mum who taught me to make tea that way. If serving guests, I either ask how milky they like the tea or let them pre-add the milk themselves. If you live in the Seattle area, the Teacup on the top of Queen Anne Hill is a great bet. http://www.seattleteacup.com Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/B996668 Wed Jan 07 17:30:43 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Laurella 2 1625405 Note that milk in first, or MIF, was deemed non-U (non-upper-class) by Nancy Mitford. Spot the difference when you're watching those great BBC period dramas. :) Wed Jan 07 18:22:16 -0800 2004 1625389 0 Annabelle 1 1625397 On our last vacation -- a road trip -- I brought a tin of loose black tea, an infuser and a ceramic mug. I made my own tea using the microwaves in the motel rooms -- before going out to breakfast. My husband was happy that he didn't have to hear me complain about the tea in restaurants. My most recent tea annoyance was at an expensive well-regarded restaurant. I ordered Earl Grey tea for dessert. It cost around $5 and was served in a lovely iron pot. But the brew was so heavily perfumed with bergamot that I couldn't taste the actual tea. And they brewed too much too long. It was bitter and perfumey. I suspect the waiter didn't know how to measure. I've seen super-flavored earl grey for sale. There's a brand called "earl greyer". IMO a bad idea. Wed Jan 07 18:00:02 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Val G 2 1625410 Sounds like rather than over-measured, it was over-steeped, or "stewed." Possibly the waiter got busy with other things and allowed it to infuse too long. That's one of the reasons I avoid Earl Gray, though--it's usually too heavily perfumed with bergamot. I like your idea about bringing your own tea and making a cup in the hotel room. I depend on tea for my morning caffeine, too. Wed Jan 07 18:32:14 -0800 2004 1625397 0 Colleen 3 1625418 I bring my stainless steel Einstein Bagel travel mug, my Betty Crocker hot water pot and my tetley british blend tea with me on vacation and make tea in the room. I got stopped recently in the airports because they did not know what the hot water pot was in my suitcase. They probably thought I was crazy. Wed Jan 07 18:54:04 -0800 2004 1625410 0 Richie 4 1625421 Most coffee drinkers think tea drinkers are crazy. Wed Jan 07 19:14:12 -0800 2004 1625418 0 Colleen 5 1625580 Except for those of us "cross-drinkers" who love caffeine in both forms!!! Thu Jan 08 18:22:50 -0800 2004 1625421 0 LBQT 2 1625430 even more convienent is a french press travel mug made by bodum. i got mine at peets. it's like a little, all-in-one teapot. i've listed bodum's link below; can't remember peet's address off the top of my head. Link: http://www.bodum.com Wed Jan 07 21:06:47 -0800 2004 1625397 0 lynn 1 1625738 The poor quality of tea service in otherwise "high-end" restaurants is an ongoing pet peeve of mine. As regulars on the San Francisco board know, Five years after the fact I'm still complaining about being served tea-bag tea (presented with a laughable flourish in one of those ridiculous wooden boxes that someone else mentioned) at a top-tier San Francisco restaurant (which shall remain nameless because I've beaten this story to death and because it isn't relevant to the topic or the board). When I requested the waiter take the tea bag back to the kitchen and pour boiling water over it into the pot (oh how I hate dunking a tea-bag in a pot of lukewarm water), he actually argued with me -- in front of my family and the whole restaurant -- about how this was unnecessary, and eventually he outright refused. Needless to say, with so many other good restaurants in the city, I see no reason to spend several hundred dollars at that restaurant again. Basically, they lost a customer over 10 cents worth of tea and a healthy dollop of both indifference and arrogance. I think what restaurants fail to understand is that good tea service is a no-lose situation. People who don't care still won't care (and you can always keep a handful of teabags on hand for them if they insist), but the people who do care will really appreciate it and are likely to become loyal customers. I certainly have a mental list of restaurants in my area that have good tea service -- and apparently unlike other places, in the Bay Area there are some full-service restaurants that actually offer a selection of loose teas served with the proper equipment -- and it can definitely be a deciding factor in choosing a restaurant. Fri Jan 09 14:51:13 -0800 2004 1625248 0 Ruth Lafler 2 1625844 What it says to me is that if a restaurant is willing to take the trouble over a proper tea service, they're willing to take trouble in other areas, too. I can't believe the waiter argued with you! When I used to waitress, if a customer had made such a request (which is reasonable) I would not have thought twice about complying. Sat Jan 10 00:22:59 -0800 2004 1625738 0 Colleen