295106 Sat Nov 29 00:14:11 -0800 2003 26 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1620596 This is a follow up to my apple pie post below, which has gotten some GREAT answers. What's your favorite pie crust recipe? I do not have a lot of experience baking pies (um, I've baked a total of...1). Most recipes I see call for vegetable shortening, which I'm generally loathe to use - is it really essential? People in the great pie recipes have mostly been taking the crust for granted, but it seems to me that's a pretty important part. Sat Nov 29 00:14:11 -0800 2003 0 Dan Sonenberg 1 1620603 To be honest, pie crusts come out best with half shortening and half unsalted butter. You could use all butter but it will be less flaky and more crumbly like a cookie. Believe it or not, most bakeries etc use all shortening. Sat Nov 29 02:35:52 -0800 2003 1620596 0 MarkinLA 1 1620604 Dave: You're right--the crust is a very important part of the pie. I'm always hesitant to recommend a particular pie pastry, as it really depends on what you prefer for flavour and texture and your level of experience in baking. I really don't know what kind of crust you have in mind when you say "pie." No, you do not need to use vegetable shortening. I use all butter or a mixture of butter and lard. Really, to avoid the hydrogenated fats (which I assume is your concern about vegetable shortening) you really have to render your own lard. I can't be bothered, but then I don't make pies very often (there's only two of us to eat them). So if you want to avoid hydrogenated fats, use all butter. I think there are some earlier posts discussing using products such as Earth Balance--I'm not familiar with those products. The pastry you see on most pies is standard pastry (butter, flour, salt, and ice water) and it requires some experience. On the other hand, you won't get experience unless you try. Maida Heatter in "Maida Heatter's Book of Great Desserts" gives a very complete description of how to make and roll out pastry. Puff pastry is that type of pastry often seen in bakery turnovers, palm ears (palmiers), vol-au-vents, and so on. Very flaky and high. Similar to Standard Pastry, but a lot more butter and a lot more work. Again, takes experience. You can either venture into these on your own or round up someone with experience to walk you through it--nothing replaces doing it yourself. I recommend the latter--I learned through experience, but it can be frustrating. Third, there are many "No-Fail" recipes out there, which are easier, and simulate a Standard Pastry crust. I don't use them, so can't offer any recipes, but I'm sure there are many Chowhounds that can provide one. These differ in that it's not so crucial that the fat be cut in properly, that the ingredients be cold, that you don't overmix, and so on. It's also more tolerant of rolling--standard pastry should not be rolled more than twice. Chowhounds were also singing the praises of an oil crust (made with liquid vegetable oil) in an earlier thread. I've never tried it, but I know the recipe was posted. Try searching the Chowhound site for "Never-Fail Crust/Pastry" and "Oil Crust." There are two final alternatives: a sweet biscuit dough, such as that for shortcake, or use Phyllo dough layers, which you can buy. Buy the phyllo--it's a pain to make. Basically, brush one side of a sheet of phyllo with melted butter, place it over the pie butter side down, butter the other side. Repeat butter and phyllo for about 5-6 layers. While you're working, keep the other layers from drying out by keeping them under a damp dish towel. Finally, Butter top and sprinkle with sugar. Bake at about 425F until brown. I've posted below my recipes for Standard Pastry (paraphrased from Maida Heatter's book) and for Shortcake. You can see from the directions that standard pastry is fussy. You may want to increase the quantity of pastry depending on the size of pie you're making. The main things to remember are: keep the ingredients and the pastry mixture cold until the pastry goes in the oven (that means don't handle too much--your hands are warm), and mix gently--do not overmix or the dough will be tough. Good luck. Biscuit Shortcake From: Watkins Cook Book By: Elaine Allen Published: The J. R. Watkins Company, 1948, 7th Edition 2 cups all-purpose flour (stir well with a fork before spooning into measuring cup) 4 tsp. Baking Powder 1 Tbsp. Sugar 1/2 tsp. Salt 1/3 cup Butter 3/4 cup Milk Sift together dry ingredients (just stir together with a fork), then cut in butter until the mixture resembles large crumbs with a few pea-size pieces. Make a well in the centre and pour in the milk. Stir gently and quickly with a fork until thoroughly mixed. Turn out/scrape out onto a floured surface (not too much flour) and gently turn and knead with your fingertips about 15-20 times to form a smooth, soft dough. Roll or pat out to about 1/2-inch thickness. Brush top with melted butter. Bake at 450F for about 15-25 minutes. Pie Pastry Sufficient for a single 9-inch crust From Maida Heatter's New Book of Great Desserts (Alfred A. Knopf, 1982) 1 cup sifted All-Purpose Flour scant 1/2 tsp. Salt 3 tbsp. Vegetable Shortening (or lard), cold and firm 3 tbsp. Unsalted Butter (Salted Butter is okay–decrease added salt), cold and firm, cut into small pieces 3 tbsp. Ice Water (approximately) If the room is warm, it is a good idea to chill the mixing bowl and even the flour beforehand. Place the flour and salt in a large mixing bowl. Add the shortening and butter. With a pastry blender cut in the shortening and butter until the mixture resembles coarse crumbs–when partly cut in, raise the bowl with both hands, quickly move it away from you, up, and then toward you in a jerky motion to toss the bottom ingredients to the top. Search for any large pieces of butter or shortening and cut them individually with a knife. It is all right to leave a few pieces about the size of small peas. One tablespoon at a time, sprinkle the water over the surface of the dry ingredients, mixing and tossing with a fork after each spoonful. Do not dump a lot of water in any one spot. After every few spoonfuls of water, raise the bowl with both hands and quickly move it away, up, and toward you in a jerky motion to toss the dry flour to the top. This will help distribute the water evenly. Continue adding water until the pastry begins to hold together--you may need more or less than the recipe recommends). Be careful--too much water will make the pastry sticky/soggy/tough. If the water is added in a lump or if the water is not distributed properly, the dough may appear too dry and you may think you need more water when you don't. With pracice, you will know when the mixture is ready--it will form a ball when pressed together. Scrape the dough out onto a sheet of plastic wrap; bring up the sides of the wrap, and squeeze them firmly together at the top, pressing from the outside and allow the mixture to form a ball without actually touching it. If the dough is too dry to hold together, do not knead it. Replace the dough in the bowl, use a knife to cut it into small pieces again, then add a few more drops of water and stir again. Flatten the ball of dough (within the plastic wrap) slightly and smooth the edges. Refrigerate for about an hour or overnight before rolling out. When ready to start rolling, place a large spoonful of flour on your rolling surface and spread out. Unwrap dough, place it on the floured surface, and flatten a little with the rolling pin. Flip the dough over, making sure to spread the flour beneath. At this point, dust the rolling pin with flour as well. Continue rolling until pastry is desired size. Loosely roll the pastry around the rolling pin and lift it, unrolling it evenly over the plate (use a spatula to ease the pastry up if it's sticking). Ease the pastry into the pan without stretching the dough. If it cracks, press edges together using a little cold water. Trim edges of pastry. Cut steam slits in pastry, brush top with a mixture of egg and milk (one egg, a few spoonfuls of milk beaten), sprinkle generously with sugar, and into the oven right away. Sat Nov 29 02:38:29 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Colleen 1 1620606 Dan: I'm thinking I probably confused you completely with that last post. Basically, choose a desired textured: Standard Pastry, Puff Pastry, Biscuit, or Phyllo. Do you want to do the work yourself, but don't have much experience? I'd recommend the no-fail or oil crusts. Do you want puff pastry? You can buy it frozen unless you really want to learn how. Incidentally, you can also buy standard pastry frozen. Do you want a biscuit top? Then use the recipe I gave you. I haven't run across a commerical biscuit mix yet that I thought was worth eating. Phyllo? Then follow the directions I gave you. I hope this helps. Sat Nov 29 02:49:49 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Colleen 1 1620607 Do you have a food processor? It makes life easy. Use 2 cups of flour for a double crust, 9" pie. Use 1/3 cup butter, 1/3 cup lard, a bit of salt. Cut the butter and lard into more or less tablespoon sized pieces and put everything in the processor. Process with on-off pulses until the fats are roughly incorporated. Now add a few tablespoons of ice water and run the processor. If the dough leaves the side of the bowl and clumps, you are done. Otherwise add a bit more water and repeat. Once you have the dough to this point, take it out of the bowl and form it into two balls, one a bit larger than the other. Put them in the refrigerator for at least an hour and preferably overnight (this way you can make the dough the night before and clean the processor with the dinner dishes!). Take the dough out at least an hour before you plan to use it. When you are ready to start making the pie, LIGHTLY flour a piece of plastic wrap and place the larger ball on it. Pat out gently into a reasonably large circle. Flour this lightly and cover with another piece of plastic wrap. Now use your rolling pin to roll out the dough. When it is the right size, take off the top sheet and move the dough to the pan. Invert the dough so that the plastic is on the top as you place it in the pan. Don't take the sheet off until you have the dough positioned where you want it in the pan. Fill pie and repeat with other piece of dough. If you have it, use a bit of heavy cream to brush on the finished top crust. It really aids with the browning. Sat Nov 29 06:43:08 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Pat Goldberg 1 1620610 I agree with the mix of butter and shortening; you can vary ratio, but it should be at least half butter. My most important tip -- all recipes instruct you to chill the dough well before rolling it out. Most don't tell you that if you try rolling it out when it's really cold, it will crack like crazy. Let it warm up till it's cool (colder than room temperature,warmer than a cold drink) before rollig. Sat Nov 29 08:46:42 -0800 2003 1620596 0 sbp 1 1620612 Man, this was certainly the right place to inquire! Thanks for the great tips (esp. Colleen!) I guess I'm better known on the outer borough board as a craggy vegetarian, so I won't be using lard, but yes, I was hoping to avoid the trans fats in shortening. But hell, I'm making a pie, right? I think the standard pastry is the one for me, and yes, I'm willing to learn/screw it up the first time. Think I really have all the info I need for the pie. Just gotta carve out some time to do it, and I will. I'll report back! Sat Nov 29 09:48:26 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Dan Sonenberg 1 1620618 Dan, if you don't want to render or use lard and, like me, aren't into the concept of shortening, try making a cream cheese pie crust. there are recipes in both the new joy of cooking and in rose levy bernebaum's pie and pastry bible. this pie crust uses cream cheese and butter instead of shortening and butter. I find a cream cheese crust to be very tasty and flaky (not as flaky as lard/shortening ones, but hey, you can't have everything!) best of all, as berenbaum points out, because of the cream cheese, you don't have to really guess at how much water to add, thereby eliminating two of the most common errors of beginning crust makers, which is adding too much or too little water. Plus, the cream cheese flavor with apple pie is great. i suggest trying it. if you don't have either of those cookbooks let me know and i'll paraphrase the recipe for you. Sat Nov 29 12:10:53 -0800 2003 1620596 0 missmasala 2 1620635 Don't have em, and would love a paraphrase of the cream cheese crust recipe. (I have a wonderful old version of the Joy of Cooking, c. 1971) I certainly have some choices now! Sat Nov 29 15:11:10 -0800 2003 1620618 0 Dan Sonenberg 1 1620622 My mother swore by the famous methods popularized by Aunt Chick (an Oklahoma cooking celebrity of sorts, IIRC). I have never seen the recipes, which are stored somewhere among my mom's things, but just this week my mother commented that the Aunt Chick method counterintuitively involved a layering process not unlike puff pastry, which simultaneously strengthened the structure of the crust (that it, it would not collapse as readily when you cut into it, and it tolerated a fair bit of handling, just like puff pastry does) while also making it tender AND flaky. Sat Nov 29 12:51:13 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Karl S. 1 1620627 Pie crust is so tricky to get right. But there are a few principles and techniques that can really help you to get good results every time. The recipe below seems to combine them all, it never fails to make a flaky, perfect pie crust. It uses only butter. I use the "by hand method" as opposed to the food processor method. And I don't use pastry flour (only because I never have it around), rather unbleached all-purpose. At first, this recipe may seem a little complicated... for elucidation, be sure to read the philosophical and scientific underpinnings at the end. I think the key to making a good pie crust is, first and foremost, to use very cold ingredients and to keep returning them to the refrigerator or freezer after each step. You start by cutting a portion of the butter very finely into the flour (can be done with a food processor). And then cut a smaller portion of the butter into the flour in larger bits. In the recipe linked below, you then put the butter/flour mixture into a plastic bag and roll it so that the bigger bits of butter form large flakes, which is really brilliant. When it comes time to add the ice water, you want to add as littleas possible--the more water, the tougher the crust will be. This recipe suggests adding the water and then throwing it all into a plastic bag to form the ball. This works very, very well, though I reserve a tablespoon or so for after I have put it into the bag, so that I don't have to work the dough too much to get it together into a ball. But even when I have kneaded the dough quite a bit to get it to stick together, I have always ended up with a very flaky and buttery crust. The final factor is the temperature. Try to make your pie crust in a cool place. A hot kitchen will make it much, much harder to get good results--both when you are working the dough and when you are rolling it out. It also helps to roll onto foil or wax paper, so that everything holds together well. Link: http://www.epicurious.com/run/recipe/view?id=101858&kw=pie+crust&action=filtersearch&filter=recipe-filter.hts&collection=Recipes&ResultTemplate=recipe-results.hts&queryType=and&keyword=pie+crust&x=12&y=12 Sat Nov 29 13:08:37 -0800 2003 1620596 0 butterfly 1 1620628 I use my mother-in-law's pie crust recipe, which seems strange -- until you taste it! Janet Levine’s Texas Pie Crust 2 sticks margarine* 1 ¾ cups flour* 1 T. sugar* 2 T. vinegar 2 T. milk 1/2 t. salt* Cut starred items, then add milk and vinegar. Knead into ball, cut in half and roll. Bake pie for 45 minutes at 450 degrees. F. N.B. This must be chilled before you attempt to roll it. No matter what you do, rolling is difficult. You can try to roll it between two sheets of wax paper or plastic wrap. I know it sounds weird, but it is a delicious, flaky crust that is a piquant foil to sweet pie fillings. Sat Nov 29 13:13:41 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Sandra L 2 1620631 Do you think it's particularly necessary to use margarine instead of butter? Sat Nov 29 13:36:13 -0800 2003 1620628 0 Dan Sonenberg 3 1620644 No, but this is my Bubie's recipe (except she used non-dairy creamer or water, not milk), and I think the margarine was part of keeping it Parve (non-dairy), and therefore kosher following a meat meal. Sat Nov 29 17:43:56 -0800 2003 1620631 0 sbp 2 1620648 This looks like a "no-fail" pastry recipe. No, it doesn't have to be margarine. The vinegar changes something in the character of the dough, making it more tolerant. Sat Nov 29 18:11:24 -0800 2003 1620628 0 Colleen 1 1620630 My great Aunt in Montana's recipe uses a bit of vinegar in her pie crust and that recipe produces a very flakey crust, tender and tasty (you don't taste any vinegar). I'd have to go get the exact recipe from the files, but maybe someone else has the same experience and can comment on how good a crust is when adding a touch of vinegar instead of water. Let me know if you want the exact recipe. Sat Nov 29 13:18:45 -0800 2003 1620596 0 kc girl 1 1620632 Boy, I'm glad I didn't read all these posts before attempting my first pie crust this week :-) I guess I just had some great beginner's luck because I ended up with a flaky (lots of layers), tender pie crust and I didn't chill the dough, or use ice water like everyone here says to do. Here's what I did. Pulled out my trusty Fanny Farmer cookbook and went to the basic pastry recipe (the cookbook recommends against using a food processor for basic pastry so I did by hand.) I needed a 9 inch pie shell, so I used a fork to mix together 1 1/2 cups of flour and 1/2 teaspoon salt. (The next time I make this I'll probably add a touch of sugar as well.) The recipe calls for 1/2 cup shortening, but I remembered hearing that it's best to mix butter and shortening so I did 1/4 cup unsalted butter cut into small pieces and 1/4 cup Smart Balance Organic Shortening (non hydrogenated, no trans fats). I cut the shortening/butter into the dry mix until it looked like coarse meal, with small crumbs, bits and pieces. The recipe calls for 3-4 tablespoons cold water, and I just used water from from the Brita in the refrigerator. What I did was sprinkle one tablespoon over the top, mix it gently with a fork, then add more as needed until the pastry just stuck together. It was about 3 1/2 tablespoons. I handled it as little as possible as I pressed it into a ball. I sprinkled some flour on my granite countertop (which of course I had washed well beforehand) and rolled the dough out. Of course, then I was stuck (literally) with a nice round of dough that didn't want to come up off the counter, but I had a long knife that was good for the job. (Next time, I'll roll out on waxed paper, but I want to do it on the counter again because I think the coldness of the counter is why I got so lucky.) I pressed it into my pie plate, crimped the edges with a fork and poked a few holes into the crust with a fork. Then I baked at 425 for about 16 minutes. The recipe recommended opening the door to check if the pie crust has started to swell up, and if so, gently push it down. As I said, maybe I just had some extreme beginners luck, but I don't see what all the fuss is about. It was easy and I had a GREAT pie crust. Sat Nov 29 14:31:34 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Chris VR 2 1620641 Like you, I had beginner's luck with my first few crusts, and I'm glad your first try worked so well. Off and on, I've had problems. Once, where the dough just was not cooperating when I rolled it (this was when I was a teenager--many moons ago). I recall losing my temper and slamming the rolling pin down onto the pile of dough--dough and flour everywhere. I went for a long walk, came back, threw out the old pastry and made a new batch that worked just fine. Baking--especially pastry--is exacting. Sometimes the planets are in alignment or whatever and everything is perfect. Some days nothing works even though you've done everything right. I know many fabulous cooks who hate baking for that reason. The amount of water I add to my pastry varies depending on the brand of flour, how long it's been stored, and so on. The humidity and warmth of the cooking environment also makes a difference. I'm always looking for ways to improve my pastry-making technique--you'll always run across something new, because people that bake and cook are a creative and resourceful bunch. It boils down to patience and experience and the willingness to throw out things that don't work and try again. Sat Nov 29 17:20:25 -0800 2003 1620632 0 Colleen 2 1620642 I got anal once while making pie crust. I was still a little inexperienced and I had suffered a couple of disappointing attempts mixed in with a couple pretty good results. So I thought I'd try the “chill everything in sight method.” What a hassle. It took me twice as long with twice the work to finish with a crust no better than my earlier attempts sans chilling. Chilling everything in sight was not the solution to my crust problems (OK, I still use chilled water, always have). What I was lacking in my early attempts was some experience with the textures and handling issues of the process. Chris, your description sounds to me like you did everything correctly. Most importantly, you let the texture of your dough determine your decisions. When it comes to pie crust, a recipe is, at best, a guideline. Different flours under different climate conditions require different amounts of shortening and water. You cut in your shortening and butter until you attained a course meal texture (I assume it was moist and crumbly, with little, if any, floury dryness). If at this point you had followed the recipe exactly and had found the dough to be too dry or too saturated with fat you would have added more fat or more flour accordingly, until the correct texture was attained. You added chilled water gradually. A good practice since it makes for an even incorporation of water with dough and also, once too much water is added it can't be un-added. Again, texture is the measure; as you say, "...as needed until the pastry just sticks together." I have only one suggestion that I think will make your crust easier to prepare, though not necessarily better. I use a pasty cloth to roll my dough. A pastry cloth is basically a piece of canvas. The cloth is great in that less flour is needed in rolling out the dough. Also the cloth makes it very easy to pick up the dough and transfer it to the pie dish. When I roll my dough I first press the dough by hand into a circle about one inch thick. I pat the edges to eliminate tears and cracking at the edge (like making hamburger patties). I roll the dough a little more, to about one half inch thick, and fixed the edge again by patting out the tears and cracks. I finish rolling out to a near perfect circle with un-torn and uncracked edges. Pie crust is like riding a bike. You learn by experience, you develop the skill by using your senses, it’s not hard or complicated, and once you’re up it is hard to fall down. Sat Nov 29 17:30:07 -0800 2003 1620632 0 Pinky 3 1620664 Good point, Pinky. I know how to cook, and I know how to use recipes, so I do take that skill for granted. I'm sure if my sister (who panics when making pudding out of a box) were trying to follow the same recipe I used, she'd have a breakdown. Is a pastry cloth something devoted to that purpose? or a kitchen towel or something like that? Sat Nov 29 20:38:36 -0800 2003 1620642 0 Chris VR 4 1620729 By all means, a pastry cloth is material devoted to the purpose of rolling out pastry. Mine is a tightly woven canvas like material. I purchased the cloth I use at a cookware retailer well before we had the internet. A goggle search should point you in the right direction. Sun Nov 30 19:42:39 -0800 2003 1620664 0 Pinky 2 1620649 Chris, you lead a charmed life! At my age, MY age, sometimes my crust turns out great, and sometimes it's pressed into the pie plate with lots of patches (which I've peeled off the rolling pin). I haven't used a food processor, but my next pie shell will be made that way. And by the way, the idea that the flour and shortening mixture should "resemble cornmeal" is, for me, an absolute crock! I've never seen cornmeal that looks even remotely like my pie crust mixture. Hey, maybe that's my problem! Sat Nov 29 18:24:13 -0800 2003 1620632 0 Pat Hammond 3 1620665 Ha- I'm sure I just jinxed myself with all the pastry gods by my cocky telling of this story, and my next cake will fall, pudding won't thicken and piecrust will come out like shoe leather :-) Sat Nov 29 20:40:35 -0800 2003 1620649 0 Chris VR 1 1620660 Okay, So many great responses and I'm just about ready to go. But when I was out shopping and buying pastry flour, I noticed some bulk organic whole wheat pastry flour...I couldn't resist. Can I substitute at least some of the regular flour w/ whole wheat? I've always loved whole wheat crusts, but something inside me tells me it's probably a whole 'nother ballgame (different recipes, procedures, etc.) Sat Nov 29 19:28:52 -0800 2003 1620596 0 Dan Sonenberg 2 1620661 I've never used flour for pastry that was specifically pastry flour, so "results may vary." I have, however, experimented with whole wheat flour off and on. 100% Whole Wheat=Heavy as lead. The optimum seems to be about 1/3 whole wheat to 2/3 unbleached white. Affects texture and behaviour very little (may need more water and/or fat). You can go up to half-and-half, but you're pushing it. Whole wheat pastry flour may give better results than regular whole wheat flour. I'd try 1/3 this time, and if that's successful, try 1/2 or 100%. If it doesn't work... chalk it up to experience. Sat Nov 29 19:47:02 -0800 2003 1620660 0 Colleen 2 1620668 I would master the art of making a crust first. You want to get a feel for how it all comes together before you start messing with the formula. Also, if the recipe you use calls for all-purpose, you'll want to add extra pastry flour (it's finer and thus you'll need more volume--about 1/4 cup for a two crust pie--to make up the difference). I agree with one of the previous posters--Rose Levy Beranbaum's recipe is the best (available on epicurious.com). Sat Nov 29 22:53:47 -0800 2003 1620660 0 crusty 1 1620881 I made my first pie ever just days ago. It came out awesome. My only regret is not making two so I'd have leftovers. All the credit belongs to Alton Brown for his superb episode on pie crust. In the show, he explains how to achieve tenderness and flakiness in the same dough. For tenderness you thoroughly mix in room temperature butter, for flakiness you leave chunks cold butter that create alternating layers of flour and fat when rolled out. A transcript of the episode plus a link to the recipe on FoodTV's website can be found at the link below. The only modification I made was that I omitted the cornmeal, only because I didn't have any. I also had to use far more than three tablespoons of water, but because it was a very dry day in Los Angeles I knew that would be necessary. I only used the dough recipe, for the filling I winged a mixture of apples (Arkansas black, MacIntosh, Braeburn). And to those who say that you need shortening for a flaky dough: how do you explain puff pastry? -Nick Link: http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Season2/EA1B04.htm Mon Dec 01 18:46:59 -0800 2003 1620596 0 nja