294371 Thu Oct 09 10:50:03 -0700 2003 35 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1614207 cooking a roast chicken this weekend. planning on stuffing it with thyme, garlic, lemon...anyone have any advice for perfecting this dish?? chowfreak Thu Oct 09 10:50:03 -0700 2003 0 chowfreak 1 1614214 MOst important question to answer if you seek perfection over mere goodness: How big is the bird? Many of the classic recipes and techniques are designed for birds in the 3-4 lb. range, *not* larger birds, though people routinely ignore that factor and wonder why they don't achieve what they see on TV or at fine restaurants. I usually use two smaller birds rather than one big bird (for big birds, I much prefer capon, which is more forgiving than large roasting chickens). Thu Oct 09 11:54:08 -0700 2003 1614207 0 Karl S. 2 1614217 I'm working with a 5 lb bird. first time i'm trying this and want great results. please help! Thu Oct 09 12:01:24 -0700 2003 1614214 0 chowfreak 3 1614231 The key here is that larger lean birds do not do as well with high heat techniques; you can get a crispy skin with a dry outer layer of flesh and an underdone interior. (One way around that is to butterfly the bird (remove the backbone) and roast it first bone-side up and then flip to roast skin side up.) With larger birds, there is always a compromise compared to smaller birds in terms of crispy skin versus properly done flesh. So, I would aim for 375 degrees. Checked with an oven termometer, not just the oven's setting. Lots of ovens run differently from their settings, and that can make a big difference. I would brine. I would definitely massage softened butter (preferably with fresh (not dried) herbs like thyme, sage, rosemary or tarragon) between the skin and the flesh -- this will promote the crispy skin. And then season the top of that skin with a bit of that butter and some pepper and salt. And throw a lemon and/or onion-carrot-celery in the cavity. I don't truss larger birds -- it can make getting the inside of the thigh done right problematic. I use wads of paper towels to flip the bird around.(And wear an apron to protect your legs from drippings!) Don't roast in a high-sided pan; it impairs roasting. For a large bird, I would roast on a rack, rather than directly on the pan. Pre-heating the pan (not the rack) in the oven helps. I would roast breast side down first and then breast side up. (If I were really fussy, I would roast on the sides, too, but I don't usually find that necessary.) Put a cup of water in the pan when you place the bird/rack on it, to mitigate the scorching of melted butter.... Chicken is done when the meat in the deepest part of the breast *and* thigh register on an accurate thermometer 165 degrees (salmonella is killed by about 160 degrees for a few minutes). Chicken cooked to 180 degrees is usually overcooked. Thu Oct 09 12:54:56 -0700 2003 1614217 0 Karl S. 4 1614233 Oh, and remove the wishbone before cooking; it makes carving the breast MUCH easier. Thu Oct 09 12:55:36 -0700 2003 1614231 0 Karl 4 1614364 As far as the high-sided pan is concerned, it depends on how high the side. I use a cast iron oblong open casserole pan (not a dutch oven) which has sides about 2 1/2 or 3 inches high. Since it's cast iron, it radiates the heat onto the thighs, thus solving the problem of overdone breast and underdone thighs. Otherwise, I am a traditionalist - a good bread, onion, and celery stuffing is all that's needed. Fri Oct 10 07:55:12 -0700 2003 1614231 0 Sandy 2 1614259 Agreed -- whenever I can get my hands on a bigger (which means OLDER) bird I use it for stock! The older bird is tougher, but also has more flavor, which makes it an ideal bird to make into stock. Stick to the 4 pounds and under chickens, unless, of course, you can get your hands on a good, fresh capon (which retains it's moistness because of how the bird was raised, I won't go into it). However, most butchers, even good ones, can only get capons frozen, which I think is a waste of good money. Occasionally Asian butchers or really high-end expensive butchers can get you a fresh capon, but you usually have to order it in advance and pay big $$$$$ Thu Oct 09 15:26:13 -0700 2003 1614214 0 Mrs. Smith 1 1614220 How about a couple of bay leaves tucked under the skin? Also Rosemary. Rub salt and pepper inside and outside. Tie the legs together and tuck the wing tips in. Thu Oct 09 12:10:02 -0700 2003 1614207 0 Peter 2 1614248 I'm a big fan of rosemary between the skin and bird. Chopped potatoes scattered around the bird in the rosting pan will cook in the chicken fat and be oh-so-bad for you but oh-so-good. Thu Oct 09 14:08:15 -0700 2003 1614220 0 danna 3 1614336 I prefer to stuff whole cloves of garlic in the joint between the thigh and the breast. I can usually fit 6 cloves on each side of the bird. The meat has a nice, infused flavor, and I get a dozen nicely roasted cloves of garlic. Thu Oct 09 22:47:34 -0700 2003 1614248 0 grumpy 1 1614221 A Patricia Wells "truc" Add extra lemon to the cavitity, remove and carve, squeeze lemon over bird. Lovely. Also, don't forget to brine. Thu Oct 09 12:14:40 -0700 2003 1614207 0 JudiAU 2 1614225 I second the brine. Thu Oct 09 12:21:57 -0700 2003 1614221 0 MPKen 3 1614235 Okay, I'll display my ignorance. How do I brine a chicken? Thu Oct 09 13:02:50 -0700 2003 1614225 0 laura 4 1614238 There are literally thousands of brining receipes on the web. Salt, sugar, garlic, herbs, and enough water to cover the chicken. Adjust ingredients and brining time to your taste. But personally I don't find it necessary to brine a chicken. Thu Oct 09 13:25:42 -0700 2003 1614235 0 Peter 5 1614253 Brining essentially protects against overcooking; it gives you a margin of error. This is more important with meats that dry out quickly or become uneatable when dry. Pork and Turkey are prime examples. With Turkey, the problem is that the bird is so big the outer inch or so dries out before the middle is cooked. Young chicken doesn't need brining, but it does let you go a little over on the cooking time. I find that it can make it too salty too. Brine that has soaked in doesn't wash off. Thu Oct 09 15:00:22 -0700 2003 1614238 0 sbp 4 1614239 Basically marinating in water, kosher salt, a few pinches of sugar. Some prefer to add spices. I like a dash or two of hot sauce (mmmm insanity sauce). Leave in for 30 minutes to multiple hours. I'm sure there are tons of links out there for this. Below is one of the first Googled links I found. Link: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=brining Thu Oct 09 13:26:33 -0700 2003 1614235 0 Dax 1 1614226 I do what I learned from watching Jacques Pepin a few years back (though he certainly didn't invent the technique) which is to make a paste of garlic, fresh thyme, fresh sage, salt & pepper, and a little evoo. I then loosen the skin all over and smear the paste directly on the meat under the skin. You don't need to thoroughly coat it (the flavor would be too strong) but give a good amount and make sure you stuff it into the leg areas too. Stick your lemons in the cavity. I saw Jamie Oliver dip his into boiling water first for to bring out the flavor, and this seems pretty helpful. There are differing schools of thought on this, but I like to start the chicken at like 425 for the first 10-15 minutes, and then turn down to 325 to finish. Helps with crispy skin. Finally, I usually do chickens 4lbs and under but this should work with a bigger one: Cut the backbone out of the chicken, break the ribs, and flatten it. I usually lay it flat on a bed of boiled potatoes (tossed with S&P, olive oil). The potatoes sit and soak up some of the juices from the chicken and are really good. You don't get the drama of carving the whole bird in front of people, but I find that the dark meat will finish close to the same time as the white, so the white is succulent. Thu Oct 09 12:24:27 -0700 2003 1614207 0 dude 2 1614344 I'm wondering how you put lemons into the cavity of an open bird. Fri Oct 10 00:23:18 -0700 2003 1614226 0 bryan 3 1614369 If it wasn't opened... I personally don't care for lemons on my chicken. Fri Oct 10 09:02:40 -0700 2003 1614344 0 dude` 1 1614250 For something a little different, I have adapted a recipe from Lidia Bastianich's "Italian Table." She makes it with guinea hens, but I have found it works pretty well for bigger birds. After you have seasoned the bird, put some good fresh herbs in the cavity. She uses rosemary and sage, as well as bay leaves, but I would let my own taste be my guide. Chop up some celery, onions, and carrots. Cook these in the roasting pan in some oil. Also add some more of the fresh herbs you put in the cavity. When the onions have wilted, arrange these as a bed for the bird. Put in the oven and roast, basting occasionally with chicken stock. Use enough stock to keep the vegetables moist. After about an hour, the bird should have browned and the legs should be a bit loose. Remove about a cup of the broth (without fat) from the pan. Stir in 3 tablespoons of cheap balsamic vinegar and a tablespoon of honey. Use this to baste the bird for another 30 minutes or so, until the thigh meat reaches 180 degrees. Take out the bird, defat the stock remaining in the pan, and use an immersion blender or a food processor to pulverize the solids and make your sauce. If it is too thin, you can simmer it for a bit. Pat G. Thu Oct 09 14:23:34 -0700 2003 1614207 0 Pat Goldberg 2 1614286 Pat - this sounds delicious. You are making me rethink my old tried and true recipe. I think I'll give this recipe a shot this weekend. Thanks alot! Thu Oct 09 16:52:00 -0700 2003 1614250 0 Aunt Bea 3 1614315 I saw your onion based recipe. It looks good too. Thu Oct 09 19:45:46 -0700 2003 1614286 0 Pat Goldberg 1 1614263 I see that many people suggest adding a lemon to the cavity or squeeaing lemon over the bird itself. I've tried this and I have found my pan juices to be, well, sour. I don't like sour gravy. Has anyone else found this to be true? Am I doing something wrong? Thu Oct 09 15:43:13 -0700 2003 1614207 0 swingline 2 1614270 I absolutely agree. Lemons are fine to use if you don't want gravy, but isn't that half the point? my theory with roasting a chicken is to make sure you salt the skin well. Perhaps this is the reason for brining - which I've never done and probably should - but that crispy skin is essential. Also, why no mention of tarragon? Isn't that the "chicken herb?" Thu Oct 09 16:08:58 -0700 2003 1614263 0 bigskulls 3 1614274 I mentioned tarragon. Yes, the lemon is only good if you just use the lemon juice over the chicken instead of a pan-based gravy. That's why I suggested the more traditional onion-carrot-celery alternative. Thu Oct 09 16:20:02 -0700 2003 1614270 0 Karl S. 3 1614278 Tarragon goes well in many chicken preparations, but it is too delicate to hold up roasting. Tarragon really should be added at the end or in something a little more controlled, like pan sauce. I always thought thyme was the chicken herb. Agreed on the lemon -- only use if you plan to make no gravy. Salting the skin -- the Judi Rodgers/Zuni Cafe method is the way to get the best-tasting skin (brining is great, but also makes the skin texture suffer unless you are really vigilant about letting it air-dry for hours). Since I only roast smaller chickens, I've found they aren't really improved -- and in fact don't need -- brining. They are tender and juicy enough on their own if properly cooked. Salting long beforehand (see the Zuni Cafe Cookbook) --like 24-48 hours, allows for not only fantastic, dry-and-crispy skin (by combining with uncovered refrigerated drying) but also seasons the meat thoroughly. For a small roasting chicken, use about 1 1 1/2 (Judi says more, but I find more to be overkil) teaspoons of sea salt sprinkled well over all the meaty parts of the chicken. Before roasting, tuck whole sprigs of thyme under the chicken skin on the breasts and thighs. Simple, delicious. If you do make gravy with this recipe (roasted in a cast iron pan, by the way) use VERY LOW or no-sodium homemade chicken broth for the gravy, otherwise the pan drippings make the gravy too salty. Actually, I think there is a link online to the Judi Rodgers Zuni roast chicken recipe. It's great with or without the accompanying bread salad -- wait all the recipes on the Web I could find are bootleg and contain major inconsistencies. Buy the book -- that and the soup recipes are worth it. But in the meantime, do this: Use a small roasting chicken no more than 3.5 pounds. Salt 1-2 days before Dry in the fridge for 24-48 hours Don't truss Start on high heat on the stove in a cast iron stove, and brown the skin on all sides Start on high in the oven 425, and start breast side down. Flip to breast side up, also about 10 minutes on each side. About halfway through lower the temp to 375. This roasting shouldn't take more than an hour tops. Enjoy! Thu Oct 09 16:30:45 -0700 2003 1614270 0 Mrs. Smith 4 1614283 I always roast my chicken w/tarragon-- I mince fresh leaves, mix w/ s & P, and shove it under the skin of the bird-- the flavor permeates the meat, and the skin protects the herbs from burning or tasting like licorice. Thu Oct 09 16:47:24 -0700 2003 1614278 0 Erika 4 1614340 Do you salt under the skin too or just on top? Thu Oct 09 23:39:43 -0700 2003 1614278 0 Spade 5 1614826 In the cavity a small amount, but no, no salt-massaging under the skin should be necessary if it's salted long beforehand. Wed Oct 15 14:49:28 -0700 2003 1614340 0 Mrs. Smith 1 1614285 Hi Chowfreak - I roast chicken almost once a week and I find this process really EASY and delicious. Preheat oven to 400 F. First, slice a large onion and line the bottom of your roasting pan with it. Wash and clean your chicken, making sure you pat it dry thoroughly with paper towel or the like. The dryer the bird, the crispier the skin. Season the inside cavity with kosher salt and ground pepper. I then alternate with one lemon (large slices), garlic cloves and fresh rosemary. Place chicken breast side up on bed of onions and truss the legs, tucking in the wing tips. Drizzle with good olive oil and rub it onto the skin. More salt & pepper. Roast for 15 minutes per pound plus 10 more minutes (i.e. a four pound bird will take an hour and 10 minutes). Your house will smell fantastic and the chicken turns out beautifully - moist with crispy skin. You can use the defatted juices and and roasted onions for gravy. ( add stock if there is not enough liquid.) An immersion blender is great for this. Hope this helps. Thu Oct 09 16:50:00 -0700 2003 1614207 0 Aunt Bea 1 1614335 Spice and season your chicken according to your preference (putting some sppice rub underneath the chicken skin is a great idea) Take a can of beer and pour out about 3 ounces of beer , add some chopped onions, garlic and other spices to the beer can, and punch a few more additional holes on the top of the beer can. and then place the chicken ON THE BEER CAN. The beer can becomes a vertical grill rack. Be careful to balance the chicken in a pan and roast the chicken in the oven as you usually do. Instead of using an actual beer can, I have begun using a ceramic "Chicken Sitter" (see link below)-- this makes the chicken more stable and prevents tip-overs. Also, you can use wine, apple juice or water instead of beer but I like using beer the most. While the chicken roasts, the beer in the can will steam and help keep the chicken moist and tender. The steaming beer will also make the chicken cook more quickly. I have found that the skin around the top of the breast tend to darken too much so I usually use aluminum foil to "tent" the breast for the first 20-25 minutes. Remember to let your roasted chicken to rest about 15 minutes after you remove it from the oven. I have found it almost impossible to overcook a chicken using the beer can method. I like the results of beer can roasted chicken better than a brined roast chicken. Link: http://www.barbecue-store.com/willieschickensitters-chicken.htm Thu Oct 09 22:30:22 -0700 2003 1614207 0 Norm 2 1614446 I've never done that myself, but I told a co-worker about it and she tried it. Her report was that the chicken was good, but her house smelled like a brewery after cooking .... much to the chagrin of her Baptist mother in law... I bet if she had spiked the iced tea, MIL would have never noticed! Anyone else ever had that problem? Fri Oct 10 14:29:41 -0700 2003 1614335 0 EP 2 1614450 Never tried beer can chicken in the oven but do it at least once a month on the grill. Over indirect heat for about 1 hour, turning 180 degrees after 30 minutes. Perfect every time. Fri Oct 10 14:48:27 -0700 2003 1614335 0 TomSwift 3 1614552 Do you need anything to hold up the chicken? Sat Oct 11 20:58:26 -0700 2003 1614450 0 John Scar 4 1614563 No, just make sure it's well-balanced. Here's a link to an older thread on the topic. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/287685#1548965 Image: http://www.surrealgourmet.com/images/recipes/beerchick.gif Sun Oct 12 03:36:30 -0700 2003 1614552 0 Melanie Wong 5 1614569 Well-balanced is good...and also having kitchen towels and a good set of tongs at your ready for dislodging the bird when it is finished BEFORE you take it off of the grill. You don't want to carry an unwieldy bird perched on a can of boiling brew any distance at all. Sun Oct 12 10:05:24 -0700 2003 1614563 0 Heidi Claire