292205 Fri Mar 14 19:15:52 -0800 2003 20 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1594147 Hey! I'm taking a Cultural Anthropology class and need to write a research paper. I LOVE FOOD, so I thought it only natural to write something in a culinary anthropology vein. Perhaps in regards to food as a symbol of love, affection, gift giving, etc. Or how different cultures view certain foods possessing powers (to heal, to vitalize, etc). Or maybe how some foods are honored in certain cultures and taboo in others... If anyone out there is a culinary anthropologist, or has any words of wisdom, possible resources, or any ideas on the subject, I would love to hear from you. Thank you! Fri Mar 14 19:15:52 -0800 2003 0 julia's child 1 1594154 You might be interested in the article below...the gist is that cooking and more complex meals may have actually been the spark, not only of civilization, but also of our evolution into more highly evolved beings. P.S. If I had another thesis to write, I'd write it on the role that pork plays in Spanish culture. Many trace the almost religious attitudes of Spaniards toward pork back to the Inquisition, when eating pork was a method of proving your Christianity (and rejecting Islam and Judaism). Link: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990810064914.htm Fri Mar 14 20:01:43 -0800 2003 1594147 0 butterfly 2 1594229 Thanks for the link! It reminded me of this article on the role of fremented beverages in early human history. If you have a source of naturally fermenting fruit and a container, you have a gathering place, a sort of prehistoric pub. Even animals will travel to feast and party on fallen fruit so it is possible that the ability to control the alcoholic process could lead to settlements and even trade routes. Link: http://www.winemag.com/issues/nov02/dawn.htm Sat Mar 15 13:36:50 -0800 2003 1594154 0 suzannapilaf 1 1594156 To start, you might read Margaret Visser's Much Depends on Dinner and Jeremy MacClancy's Consuming Culture (out of print, but you might find it at a library). They're great books, and their bibliographies will give you lots of other publications that might help. Fri Mar 14 20:52:13 -0800 2003 1594147 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 1 1594157 Coool. How about finding out the ideas behind the yin yang of food in Chinese culture. It touches almost all of your bases. For example, Certain illnesses and predispositions are considered too much yin or yang, and certain foods of the opposite disposition are recommended. A good meal incorporates a balance of both types of foods, etc. my guess is that much of the literature is available in english..or do you read Chinese? wow, have fun!jill Fri Mar 14 20:57:56 -0800 2003 1594147 0 jill 1 1594161 I think you could write an interesting paper by looking at Chowhound and trying to define its parameters of acceptability. Here's an example: on 1-1-02 Dylany, who I believe is a professional chef, wrote that he had eaten fried chicken at KFC, found it good, and was left wondering whether, if KFC were not a chain but a solo operation in "...an obscure storefront in South Central Los Angeles run by recent emigres from the South...would some number of Chowhounds not be singing the praises of the...chicken?". I think the responses to his posting are the most interesting thing I have ever seen on Chowhound because overwhelmingly the respondants chose not to deal with the question he was asking. To date 39 replies have been posted. The majority basically have something bad to say about chains or fast-food places but hardly anyone was able to address the topic that Dylany was suggesting, which was food snobbery. Another example: not long ago someone asked about the location of a Red Lobster. People were so attacking that the poster ended up apologizing for having asked and assuring everyone that she would not go there. Several Chowhounders have asked posters not to use certain words seen as trite (such as "yummy"). Sushi is in, anything very spicy is in, odd foods such as guinea pig are in. Chain restaurants are out and the only thing farther out than buffets would be jello. Cakes should be either flourless or have a filling of ganache. I once got flamed for recommending a hospital cafeteria; another person made the same recommendation and in her posting wisely anticipated flaming. If you want to survive on Chowhound you have to be quick to pick up the rules. Cultural anthropologist, what do you think is happening here? Fri Mar 14 21:15:16 -0800 2003 1594147 0 N Tocus 2 1594175 All subcultures have an element of elitism... I've met yoga snobs, public transportation snobs, car snobs, urban snobs, suburban snobs, indie rock snobs, jazz snobs, dj snobs, tv snobs, french new wave film snobs, literary snobs, political activist snobs, graphic design snobs, breastfeeding snobs, homeschooling snobs, and so on. It makes it easier to self-identify as a "chowhound," when there is a clear ideal toward which strive--and conversely, a clear "evil" to eschew. P.S. I didn't catch the KFC thread, but I absolutely believe that with a bad location, some funky signage and bullet proof glass, KFC could easily pass as a chowhound insider secret. As it is, my chowhound SO is dreaming that they'll open a Popeyes closer to us (there's already one six blocks away). Sat Mar 15 00:12:00 -0800 2003 1594161 0 butterfly 2 1594176 "Cultural anthropologist, what do you think is happening here? " Not much, really. You've used a lot of warfare imagery: "attacked", "flaming", "survival", etc. But that's not the way I or the overwhelming majority of users see (or use) this site. We're interested in the generous, friendly exchange of practical info, rather than the indignant debates that dominate most online discussions. The moderators weed out the occasional nastiness (they inevitably miss stuff, so please report problems to webmaster@chowhound.com), but Chowhound's an unprecedentedly tolerant and open-minded forum, especially considering how inherently opinionated our users are. So the fact that one or five or ten obnoxious or snobby posters can loom large by shouting into our microphone shouldn't lead you to draw conclusions about the other 350,000 of us. The chatty debates you're referring to disproportionally attract the obnoxious shouters; that stuff is not at all the focus of this site. And it's only a tiny percentage of our daily activity....though if you want to go looking for that stuff, sure, it's there. But if you'll start a thread declaring your nagging craving for exceptional marble cake, or homesickness for moist Uzbek plov, or a loving place to cheer up during a divorce, or a point of light within mindless suburban sprawl, or just a place where talented people spend their days cooking from pride and care rather than grind and greed, you'll be tapping into the true mission and philosophy of this site. That's what we're about, not chatty debates and random noodniks. That other stuff's just marginal noise. ciao Sat Mar 15 00:28:09 -0800 2003 1594161 0 Jim Leff 3 1594201 The Chowhound administrators do a wonderful job of operating and policing the best-run message board I know of. But food and how we feel about it are basic to who we are, so sometimes attitudes are going to show up. Therein lies The Sociology of Chowhound. How many aspects of this are interesting! Sat Mar 15 09:59:56 -0800 2003 1594176 0 N Tocus 4 1594226 I realize not all of my response directly addressed your point (hey, I'm as allowed to digress as anyone here! : ) ). But I wasn't ignoring your point, either. I was trying to explain that the sort of discussion you're referring to is not the "meat" of what we do here, and so these 'big picture' discussions tend to attract a different breed of poster than those who actually conduct the "business as usual" of the site. Rather than the eaters, you get the debaters. If discussion of the issues you mentioned could be done intelligently, calmly, and with focus, I'd find it extremely interesting. But online discussion rarely stays intelligent, calm, and on-focus when it deals with Big Issues (as opposed to practical issues like finding great lasagna). The loudest, most aggressive posters quickly dominate. It's true of offline discussion, too...but more online, because the dynamic makes a scattered few seem like a mob (where else can a dozen people can scream above a crowd of 350,000?). And, indeed, your posting focused on aggressive, intolerant responses. So my point is that little can be concluded from your data, because the sample's highly skewed, and not representative of the users of this site or of anything else, other than a few folks who like to get bombastic under cover of online anonymity. ciao Sat Mar 15 13:15:46 -0800 2003 1594201 0 Jim Leff 2 1594220 If I read you right, you are interested in the effects of peer pressure on the cumulative message, which in turn affects the overall pattern that emerges. I read those KFC posts and I thought Dylany introduced a provocative and worthy discussion that gets at a central issue on the boards, i.e., what are people's expectations and standards and how do you weigh all the input? I think after a while you become familiar with the names you trust, and you factor in the rest of the opinions, factor out the flames, and see what you're left with. BTW, I disagree with all that "what's in, what's out" stuff. I think the diversity speaks for itself. Good bread and hotdogs are discussed as much as anything else. I think that some voices on the board are consistently considered, informed, and generous, and to extract the real juice here you have to filter out the reactionaries, the morally indignant, and the side-issue folks, because they are essentially unhelpful. So the "parameters of acceptability" are irrelevant. It's not a question of how many people shouted, but whether you heard the wise people whispering. Sat Mar 15 12:22:36 -0800 2003 1594161 0 lucia 1 1594162 There is an interesting journal called Gastronomica, published by University of California Press in Berkeley, that contains numerous pieces, usually short, on subjects of culinary anthropology. You might want to find a few issues and see if anything strikes you as interesting. Link: http://www.gastronomica.org/ Fri Mar 14 21:30:11 -0800 2003 1594147 0 PayOrPlay 1 1594178 I have been reading these posts for a fairly short time. It seems to me that you could definitely write something on acculturation using what you see here and some other communication with people. Sat Mar 15 00:40:38 -0800 2003 1594147 0 wally 1 1594203 Have you ever looked at the Food Timeline website? It claims to be a food information resource for kids, but goes way beyond that...go beyond the homepage,and you'll find an amazing wealth of information. If you don't find something to help you with your paper on that site, they have links to other scholarly sites that may help, too. Link: http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/kid/food.html Sat Mar 15 10:02:43 -0800 2003 1594147 0 krissy 1 1594216 I would urge you to check out the writings of Raymond Sokolov. He used to write about the anthropology of food for _Natural History_ magazine, and I believe he has also written books. I found his writings consistently interesting. And he was excellent at tying cultures to foods. I don't know what he is doing now or even if he is still alive. Sat Mar 15 11:50:12 -0800 2003 1594147 0 e.d. 2 1594225 I loved that column - probably read every one and let my subscription go when he quit writing. I have a book that is a collection of some of those about American food traditions called Fading Feast and another of his called With The Grain, published in '95. The jacket credits him with one called The Saucier's Apprentice. He was the food editor for NYT and Leisure and Arts ed for Wall St. Journal. He was born in '41 so hopefully is with us still although I haven't heard of him for quite a while. Sat Mar 15 13:11:41 -0800 2003 1594216 0 suzannapilaf 3 1594238 Raymond Sokolov also wrote a fascinating book called _Why We Eat What We Eat_, which looked at the effect on worldwide cuisines of the explorations of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, which brought corn, potatoes, tomatoes, and chiles from the new world to the old, and cattle, pigs, chickens and rice from the old world to the new. There is new information challenging that thesis (ie. that it all happened post-Columbus)- a recent book (can't recall the author's name) discussing the early exploration of North and South America by the Chinese, who brought rice cultivation with them. There is archeological evidence that they were here long before the Spanish and Portugese explorers. Fascinating stuff! Sat Mar 15 14:33:49 -0800 2003 1594225 0 zora 4 1594249 Thanks! I will definitely look for the Sokolov book and if you think of that author's name, please post it. Sounds right up my alley. Sat Mar 15 16:27:38 -0800 2003 1594238 0 suzannapilaf 1 1594223 hey, julia's child how about research into the cult mother julia herself started, tv chefs: how they have (or are) changing the way we cook, for the baby boom, or for gen X...or both? and they sure have changed over the years, going from high to middle-brow. the rest are mostly general ideas. sorry, i don't have too many specifics: some countries that should have interesting food traditions that are widely practiced: ethiopia, japan and the indian subcontinent. rice, which has been given so much symbolic meaning throughout the East. looking at different ideas of what is and isn't considered "kosher"--karmically "OK"--whithin buddhist and hindu cultures. (for example, i've heard there are hindus in west bengal who will eat beef.) studying gujarat (sp?), which has the highest proportion of vegetarians in india could be interesting. some believe that the mixing of wheat and rice, which is common there, is unhealthy apparently. (i overheard a remark about that in a ny gujarati restaurant) love the gifts idea. in hindu (for sure) and buddhist (i'm less sure) cultures they often give foods to gods and goddesses, then eat the special sweets or delicacies as parts of the religious rites. with purim coming up monday, of course, many jews are thinking about shalach manot for the holiday. i think it means something like "mana delivery" (that's my pigeon hebrew). purim is a holiday with idiosyncrasies and you could probably cull some interesting facts about its traditions. especially persian jewish traditions, since persian jews (who believe they are queen esther's ancestors) became a culturally separate group from the rest of the diaspora, early on considering themselves "persian," etc. also, what about the tradtions/pressures of not refusing food when served at a big meal or when you are a guest? persian and middle eastern banquets could be examples of that. that's the other side of being gifted with food. the not usually too healthful side. and that reminds me--fasting traditions. not always so ascetic: ramadan for example seems to involve lots of partying too. i once was tipped off about a unique tradition of jewish cooking in morocco. feel free to email me (persteph at yahoo.com) if you want more on that. don't overlook native american traditions. i think gifts and healing foods are big there. or more chowhoundesque, how stuff's evolved (sometimes bizarrely) after being handed down from original natives to early settlers: i.e., barbeque. ok, i'd better stop. have fun with your project. epicure-us Sat Mar 15 12:45:38 -0800 2003 1594147 0 epicure-us 1 1594369 You might also choose a single animal and look at how it is consumed (or not consumed) throughout the world. Consider the pig. Some religons forbid it, some regions glorify it, etc. You could look at changes to the pig itself, history of disease, history of the "new lean pig." The pig as frontier and country friend and the pig as nuevo "city white meat." You could even take a certain part of the pig and detail all of the regional traditions of the world. Mon Mar 17 13:03:44 -0800 2003 1594147 0 JudiAU 1 1595317 Fabulous brainstorming! Thanks! Fri Mar 28 16:50:15 -0800 2003 1594147 0 julia's child