29198 Sat May 08 16:51:20 -0700 2004 15 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 123238 So after reading the discussion on the board, I decided to check it out this morning. Farmer's market was in full swing, so they were very busy, but everyone working there seemed to have a great attitude. The woman who helped me was very knowledgeable and very helpful. I asked for suggestions to match ingredients I already had, and got some great cheeses to compliment them. We bought everything that was suggested to us they were all excellent choices. Sat May 08 16:51:20 -0700 2004 0 julied 1 123239 Good to hear, and thanks for reporting back. I was afraid that it would like a newspaper where they put the bad news in big headlines on page one and then bury the follow-up on the inside pages. Sat May 08 16:53:37 -0700 2004 123238 0 Ruth Lafler 1 123241 I didn't make it actually into the shop today, mostly because I was running out of time after what was supposed to be a quick stop, but it was as packed as I have ever seen it, and salespeople did seem to be smiling....especially the friendly purveyor who was giving out samples of and selling the fresh buffalo mozzarella at the edge of the shop. (it was good, and I bought some). btw, one of the reasons for the crowds seemed to be the special spring breakfast that Market Bar was holding. This has been advertised for several weeks, but I can't remember what they were calling it, only noticed it because the cost was $45 p/p for breakfast (!). Looked to be quite succesful, possibly even a sell-out. I can't recall if this was a benefit of some type, but I sure hope so at that price, especially since they were serving patrons with paper plates and plastic utensils! Sat May 08 17:23:38 -0700 2004 123238 0 susancinsf 2 123250 The organization that put on the annual "Spring Breakfast By The Bay" is CUESA, Center for Urban and Sustainable Agriculture. It was $45 because it is CUESA's annual fundraiser because they are a non-profit. The paper plates, cups, napkins and utensils were all biodegradable, btw, and no one complained about the price because CUESA puts on 4 farmer's markets and dozens of educational programs a week. I was one of about 30-40 volunteers who showed up early and helped serve some of the most gorgeous, delicious, and completely donated food, fruits & veggies to anyone who wanted to support this amazingly hard working organization. Anyone could attend, many wanted to pay more than the suggested price, and famous farmers, cheesemakers, & food writers, all sat down to enjoy eachother's company and bounty. Soon to come-- a weekend dedicated to sustainable salmon, farm tours, and a bustling piece of property dedicated to delicious food, year round. shuna Sat May 08 19:45:46 -0700 2004 123241 0 sailorbuoys 3 123252 thanks for the update: As I noted in my original post, I was hoping it was a benefit, though I do have to say that was not clear in the marketing. (at least to me, though I will also admit I lost interest as soon as I saw the price). I did see the signs for the salmon event, and looked at those a little more closely since that event didn't appear to involve lots of $ and since I have a particular interest in sustainable seafood. (as a diver and as an eater :-)). But ditto: if that one is also a benefit and/or the work you do is admirable and non-profit, it doesn't come across that way: looks more like some good marketing for the vendors at the Ferry Plaza. for that matter, isn't that what your comment about the 'bustling piece of property' is referring to? just my 2 cents as an patron. Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to marketing, but I would hate to see marketing confused with philanthropy. Sat May 08 20:04:46 -0700 2004 123250 0 susancinsf 4 123253 I think part of the problem is that while CUESA is a non-profit, the businesses it promotes are not. They may be doing good things (using sustainable practices, etc.) but they're still in business to make money. And it's hard to differentiate between the non-profit organization who sponsors the venue and the for-profit vendors who occupy it. Sat May 08 20:16:31 -0700 2004 123252 0 Ruth Lafler 5 123268 I think the larger "problem" is the fact that a non-profit is not necessarily a charity. CUESA is not Oxfam, and it's not particularly clear who benefits from a $45 breakast, if not CUESA's operating fund. What are CUESA's good works, beyond educating the public about the virtues of $2 peaches? Sun May 09 02:37:40 -0700 2004 123253 0 Gary Soup 6 123272 in order for there to be markets, there needs to be staff to oversee them. It is unbelievable to me how sarcastic this comment is, as if cuesa has not completely helped to transform hundreds of farmers & food artisans and their worker's lives, not to mention in turn thousands of visitors to sf, foodies, chowhounds, chefs & their restaurants. cuesa also has free educational programs-- cooking & gardening classes, free panel discussions on a wide variety of topics concerning all the aspects of sustainable farming, & tours to farms; to name the ways that I benefit from cuesa. I have been going to this farmer's market for over ten years. It has grown to include and support many whose foods you would not be able to access at all (anywhere!) if cuesa had not supported their efforts. I volunteer there, bring home what is in season right now, feel great about the connection I am being given the great oppotunity to foster, and sometimes I can then turn around and be inspired to make some of the desserts you all know me for. Shuna Sun May 09 12:16:53 -0700 2004 123268 0 sailorbuoys 7 123278 (I know this is non-food stuff now, but I couldn't help it) Thanks, Shuna. As a former E.D. of a non-profit, one of the biggest mistakes the public makes is thinking non-profits are NOT in it to make money. The only difference in a non-profit and a for-profit is that the 'profits' go back into the business, rather than the individual owners' pockets. Some non-profits make HUGE profits. A donation-only business can be very difficult to maintain. Making a profit means making more money on a venture than it cost to produce the venture, that's all. Means they'll have enough to pay everyone's meager salaries and cover production costs and hopefully have some left over to do the next one - or, heaven forbid, GROW as an organiztion. Another misnomer is assuming because a firm is non-profit that they are somehow more charitable or more philanthropic or more conscious than a profit making company. It's just not true in all cases. I hope CUESA made a BIG OL' PILE of money on the breakfast. They more than deserve it. Sorry for the sarcasm. I just get tired of the argument that non-profits have to 'give it all away' in order to have any kind of integrity. Sun May 09 14:51:13 -0700 2004 123272 0 tom in sf 8 123419 CUESA is not a "donation only" organization. My understanding is that the booth fees at the FPFM are quite high, among the highest, if not the highest, in the area. How that supports and benefits farmers I don't know. I do know it drives the prices up (they say they try to keep the prices the same as other markets, but I've seen the same fruit from the same vendor the same week for a lower price at another market) and ensures that only premium-priced products make it to the market in the first place, which doesn't benefit consumers, either. And it's not as if there aren't other organizations running farmers' markets in the Bay Area. They seem to do it without being so elitist or quite so self-congratulatory about their own wonderfulness. Mon May 10 18:39:53 -0700 2004 123278 0 Ruth Lafler 9 123422 I heard the same thing about the booth fees. But when I asked one CUESA employee about this, she told me that the fees are only $40 per booth, plus 1% or 1.5% of the gross (I can't remember which). So, in my opinion, it's *not* CUESA who is driving up the prices--rather, it's that some farmers have realized they can charge $9 a pound for white asparagus and the Saturday Ferry Plaza crowd will pay for it. At other farmer's markets, say Alemany, those prices won't fly. But we can vote with our dollars by going to the cheaper vendors. Another option is to join a CSA (community supported agriculture) farm-fresh box delivery in which you get enough produce to feed 2 super-hungry chowhounds for a week for $20-$26 or so. Capay, Eat Well and Mariquita all do this. Also, I have never found anything to do with CUESA to be elitist or self-congratulatory. It's a heartfelt organization that is trying to promote sustainable agriculture--and their education programs are all free. Every Saturday is a full program of seminars, panels, and discussions. Sure, a lot of the Ferry Plaza patrons could be considered elitist and self-congratulatory, but that doesn't negate the good things that they do. Mon May 10 18:57:53 -0700 2004 123419 0 anti-foodie 10 123435 Interesting. I agree that $40 sounds quite reasonable. I seem to remember the figure I heard was $200. Okay, I went back and did a search and found the thread linked below. One post says "I talked to my favorite flower vendor at Oakland farmer's market today. He charged me $6 for a beautiful bunch of hydrangeas. At Ferry Plaza Market he charges $10. He pays $27 for his booth in Oakland and almost $200 in SF." Another post says: "While working at the FP farmers market yesterday, I asked some of the farmers this question. It is true that FP space rental is the highest in the Bay Area -- even higher than Marin and St. Helena, and 4 times higher than Oakland." Of course the $200 could include the 1% commission, but you'd have to sell $16,000 worth of flowers to come out to make up the difference between $40 and $200. And if you sold $16,000 worth of flowers, I doubt you'd be fussing about $160. In other words, 1% isn't much in the scheme of things. I wonder if anyone can clear this up? As for elitist -- I think it's fair to say that the prices at Ferry Plaza Market make it elitist. They may be good for the farmers and the farm workers, but the farmworker's cousin who lives in the Mission can't afford to buy groceries there. Maybe a special item or two, but not a whole week's worth, which is why they don't shop there. The whole slow foods, artisan foods movement is a predominantly white, middle and upper class movement, and that's pretty much who you see at the market. I'm even struck by the difference in the vendors between the Old Oakland Farmer's Market, who are mostly Latino and Asian, and the mostly white ones at Ferry Plaza. You could have a market that included organic and sustainable products that weren't picture perfect or the creme de la creme, but were less expensive and thus available to a wider range of people, but Ferry Plaza is not that market. That's why I'm sticking to my characterization of it as "elitist." Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/24267#94283 Mon May 10 19:56:12 -0700 2004 123422 0 Ruth Lafler 11 123462 All good points. Another interesting aspect of this debate is that CUESA has now made it possible for shoppers to pay with food stamps, so they truly are trying to make it accessible to everyone. No other market in SF does this (but the Berkeley market does, apparently). The reason why supermarket produce is so cheap is because coporate farms are subsidized by the US govt. and many of them use transient workers who are not paid fair wages. So my main point is that buying organic, sustainable food is the *real* price of food. Not what we get in supermarkets. And yes, the Ferry Plaza market is the most expensive, but I do not blame this on CUESA. They try hard to make the market accessible to everyone. Mon May 10 23:27:23 -0700 2004 123435 0 anti-foodie 7 123298 well, without getting into whether arguments on either side are or aren't sarcastic (and without getting into Tom's issue regarding whether non-profits can keep money, which for me is actually quite beside the point): can you clarify one thing for me (and I did check CUESA's website, but didn't get a clear answer to my question by reviewing that site): Does CUESA only support the Farmer's Market, or does it also do educational or whatever programs in support of business permanently IN the Ferry Plaza? Had I been inclined to attend the spring breakfast as a benefit for CUESA, I would have wanted to know the answer to this question before giving my donation. Reason I ask: If it only supports those businesses that are out in the stalls, it may or may not be supporting only sustainable farmers and fisheries (I haven't visited enough times to know for sure, and am not as knowlegeable about farming as I am about fishing). However, I do know for a fact that some businesses within the Ferry Plaza sell non-sustainable goods: For example, the seafood place had Lingcod on special when I was there Saturday. Lingcod is on the Monterey Bay Aquariums Sustainable Seafood "DO NOT EAT" list. To the extent that CUESA is supporting a vendor that sells it, they appear to be at odds with their own stated principles. (If I understand those principles correctly). I do know that the publicity for the salmon event included a sign right near the fish store (sorry I don't know the name of the place), so at least indirectly they do benefit from the publicity. (foot traffic, promotion of seafood in general, not to mention the fact that the discussion of sustainable fisheries as it pertains to wild salmon being sustainable may lead some folks to assume that all vendors at the Ferry Plaza follow sustainable guidelines, and that food purchased there is somehow better from a being-environmentally friendly standpoint than say, Safeway). Link: http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp Sun May 09 19:47:57 -0700 2004 123272 0 Susancinsf 8 123442 The Farmers Market is completely separate from the inside of the Ferry Building. Inside the building are a collection of independent retail shops. The Farmers Market operates four days a week ( Tues, Thurs, Sat and Sun), outside the building in the arcades in front, and on Saturdays, in the plaza behind too. CUESA is the organization that sponsors these Certified Farmers Markets, as well as produces the educational programs during them. The Spring Breakfast is an annual fundraiser for CUESA. The "Return of the Salmon" posters refer to an event that is for both the Farmers Market and the inside of theBuilding, and CUESA is doing some special educational programming around wild salmon. This event is not a benefit for CUESA. Mon May 10 20:47:51 -0700 2004 123298 0 quince 7 123393 Part of the reason for the high prices at the farmer's market is that in addition to growing produce sustainably, many of these farms pay their workers a living wage--unlike many commercial farms--and try to give them work year-round, instead of just during the harvest. Workers' rights is an important issue for most people interested in sustainable agriculture. Of course, some of the farm stands charge higher prices--because they can--and the Ferry Plaza audience will pay it. Frankly, I would rather pay more for a peach and have it go to a family farm, instead of getting a hard thing from Safeway that's been 'ripened' by gases. And it tastes better too! I go to CUESA's education programs all the time, and I have learned a tremendous amount--and it's all for free. Last weekend's breakfast was clearly marked as a benefit for CUESA's educational programs, and the food was all donated by the vendors. Link: http://cuesa.org/breakfast.htm Mon May 10 16:24:51 -0700 2004 123272 0 anti-foodie