291895 Fri Feb 14 17:12:37 -0800 2003 17 36 Spirits 0 1590945 Since we've raised the bourbon issue already, I'd like to see what other hounds think about a pet peeve of mine: Tennessee Whiskey. While bourbon has to be made to rather strict specifications--at least 3 years of aging in new charred oak barrels, at least 50% corn, but not more than 75% corn (except when produced and bottled by the actual distiller)--I don't believe there are any specifications for Tennessee whiskeys. And to me, Jack Daniels is over-rated, over-hyped, and over-priced. Does anyone agree? Fri Feb 14 17:12:37 -0800 2003 0 e.d. 1 1590963 No, it's just fine as a sipping whiskey. Fri Feb 14 21:30:06 -0800 2003 1590945 0 whiskey person 1 1590974 No, this girl can't agree with any of those choices (over-rated, over-hyped, over-priced). I find it smooth and satisfying, and the cost is reasonable when compared to other big-name distilled spirits (or especially to wine, considering the price per serving). Sat Feb 15 03:13:39 -0800 2003 1590945 0 Suzanne 1 1590976 According to the Regans' book (The Book of Bourbon and other Fine American Whiskeys), Tennessee whiskey must conform to the same regulations as Bourbon, except that corn need not be the predominant grain, although they say all today's Tennessee whiskeys are predominantly corn. Sat Feb 15 06:24:59 -0800 2003 1590945 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1591037 I should know that I can count on you and other hounds for the facts. I guess I figured it was like Kentucky whiskey, which does not have to meet bourbon standards. I still don't much like the Jack Daniel's taste--too much smooth, not enough bite for my palate. Thanks again for the info. Sun Feb 16 10:54:35 -0800 2003 1590976 0 e.d. 3 1591040 I'm not familiar with Kentucky whiskey. Sun Feb 16 11:49:46 -0800 2003 1591037 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1591048 Early Times is the one that is most common. There may be others. Sun Feb 16 14:11:12 -0800 2003 1591040 0 e.d. 1 1590980 A few adjustments: - 51% for the corn in the mashbill. And only a 2 year minimum but most get at least four. Sat Feb 15 09:44:03 -0800 2003 1590945 0 Fred and Wilma 1 1590985 While I agree with the opionion expressed below, it's just fine as a sipping whiskey," Jack Daniels has been a tiny pet peeve of many years. There have been many more occasions than not that I have asked for a bourbon and soda the "bourbon" has been Jack Daniels. There will be no other choice, and, ever the pain in the ass, I will have to point out that this is not bourbon. The exchange is inevitable, my evil twin fades, I take the Jack Daniels (because that is what there is) and I like it well enough. But I peeve. Sat Feb 15 10:36:20 -0800 2003 1590945 0 Deb Van D 1 2324271 "Since we've raised the bourbon issue already, I'd like to see what other hounds think about a pet peeve of mine: Tennessee Whiskey. While bourbon has to be made to rather strict specifications--at least 3 years of aging in new charred oak barrels, at least 50% corn, but not more than 75% corn (except when produced and bottled by the actual distiller)--I don't believe there are any specifications for Tennessee whiskeys. And to me, Jack Daniels is over-rated, over-hyped, and over-priced. Does anyone agree?" Okay, let's back up. The 1964 law which codified the making of bourbon requires that in be at least 51% corn (not 50%), and there is no upper limit (though over 80% it can also become 'corn whiskey' if aged in used or uncharred barrels -- bourbon must be aged in new, charred oak barrels). Also, bourbon is bourbon from the time it is made, but it must age at least two years to be called 'straight' and four years to avoid requiring an age statement on the label. It must not come off the still at higher than 160 proof, nor go into the barrel at higher than 125 proof. It is correct that there is no reference in U.S. law to Tennessee Whiskey (though it IS named in international trade agreements), which is a name derived from a letter from a government agency solicited by Jack Daniel's Lem Motlow back in 1941. Until it is dripped through the maple charcoal that makes Tennessee whiskey distinct, it IS bourbon. In fact, some argue that since the charcoal filtration subtracts flavor elements (congeners, fusel oils and esters) from the whiskey instead of adding anything, it still can be called bourbon after undergoing the so-called Lincoln County Process. But since neither Jack Daniel's nor the Kentucky bourbon folks desires that anyway, the current separation between bourbon and JD/George Dickel is fine all around. I have absolutely no problem with anybody liking whatever whiskey strikes his/her fancy. So, if you like Jack, fine. But, understand please, that at 4-6 years old it is very expensive, ordinary whiskey. There are more than a few American straight whiskeys (bourbons and ryes) aged twice as long that come in at prices as little as half that of Jack Daniel's. Ironically, one of it's direct price-niche competitors, Maker's Mark, also is a youngish, 6yo bourbon which links its price to JD so that it can benefit from comparison as a 'premium' product. I like Jack with Coke just fine, and Maker's is pretty good bourbon. But, I almost never buy either because I can find literally a dozen or more whiskeys I prefer, and at considerably lower prices. Fri Feb 23 18:24:59 -0800 2007 1590945 71335 TNbourbon 2 3720228 Excuse me, TNBourbon, but could you please post just a few of the whiskey's that are better than Jack for the same price? That would help us all out a lot. Thanks. Sun May 25 19:16:08 -0700 2008 2324271 89845 chefguy 3 3721513 Keeping in mind that "better" ("best") is in the palate of the taster . . . Using the "Beverages, and more!" retail price of $17.99 for a 750ml of Jack Daniels Black (all prices below are for 750ml bottles; retail prices are from "BevMo) . . . Buffalo Trace Bourbon - $20.99 Elijah Craig 12 Year Old Bourbon - $22.99 Evan Williams Single Barrel Bourbon - $22.99 George Dickel #12 Tennessee Whiskey - $20.99 Jim Beam 8-Year Old Black Label Bourbon - $16.99 Makers Mark Bourbon - $21.99 Old Weller 107-proof Antique Bourbon - $20.99 I'll leave it to you to decide whether Evan Williams Black Label Bourbon ($9.49 for 750ml) and Ezra Brooks Bourbon ($10.99 for 750ml) should be included. Cheers, Jason Mon May 26 12:38:25 -0700 2008 3720228 28122 zin1953 4 3725226 Jason: I agree with all of your comment and would add the Beam White label as well. I have heard an apocryphal tale that at JD, they would periodically call on the bottling line for a label shift and without any change to the source, start bottling Green Label after Black, and vice versa. I t was alleged to have come from a former employee, but through a friend of ours, so can't personally vouch. OTOH, I can't really tell a difference between the Black and Green, so maybe it's true. Although DW loves the stuff, I rarely drink it, but I've been accused of having snobbish whiskey tastes and much prefer Pappy or Rock Hill or Blanton's Tue May 27 16:45:35 -0700 2008 3721513 106255 chazzerking 2 3757843 Dang, you really know your stuff! Currently working on a article on bourbon and wading through all this research. Should have read you first. CA Scotch Chick www.scotchchix.com Fri Jun 06 18:50:53 -0700 2008 2324271 197838 CA Scotch Chick 1 2324527 Here's a "bottom line" thought that people might actually find useful... it's just my own impressions... "Bourbon" from Kentucky tends to have a more "caramelly" and often 'sweeter" taste... "Tennessee Whisky", like JD and Geo. Dickel, tend to be a bit "drier" in taste... honestly more like listerine. What I find is that drinking these straight I usually opt for a "sweeter bourbon", but when using them in a cocktail mix, which often involves a sweet component, I find that the sweet component (coke or collins mix or sweet vermouth or whatever), tends to bring out dimensions of a dry whisky the same way that sugar brings out the flavor of chocolate or coffee (both of which are extremely dry). And often, if you mix a sweet whisky drink like bourbon and coke, using a sweet bourbon just results in TOO SWEET, vs. using JD which mixes a great b&c. Does the tennessee "dryness" come from charcoal filtering ? not sure, it might.... perhaps more of an experienced poster can speak to this.... Fri Feb 23 20:40:56 -0800 2007 1590945 42549 Chicago Mike 2 3718554 now see, i always wondered why people would pay a premium for Jack...then hide it behind coke. learn something every day. Sat May 24 20:20:14 -0700 2008 2324527 57890 KaimukiMan 1 3718312 Yes. Jack is WAYYYYYYYY overrated. Kerosene at best. But the label lends itself to black tshirts so readily that you know it's gonna be a idiot fave. Ezra Brooks 90 proof (Eazy 90) is smoother evn though it's higher in %. Even the cheap bourbon Heaven Hill white label (better than the gold label) is smoother than blackjack. Sat May 24 17:57:04 -0700 2008 1590945 195010 seawolf 2 3719960 Ever have Jack Daniels' GREEN label? Sun May 25 16:50:31 -0700 2008 3718312 28122 zin1953