291412 Thu Jan 02 00:46:11 -0800 2003 102 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1585419 I just got back from a vacation, and for a gift received a book titled "Honey, I've shrunk the bills" by Jack Weber which was published in the year 2000. I couldn't wait to get to the Chowhound, because there's two sections of the book of interest: Section 10: "Eat Out for Less" Section 13: "Secrets of the Supermarket" Before I actually follow through on some of the book's suggestions, I thought I should ask the people on this board what they think first. I'm only including some of Mr. Weber's suggestions that I'm reluctant to follow. Here we go.... 1.) "In 9 our of 10 establishments, alcoholic beverages, appetizers and desserts are overpriced. Ask for ice water with a wedge of lemon and pass on the dessert and coffee". 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". 4.) "Crowds are also a good indicator. If a place always seems busy, chances are something good is happening inside." 5.) "Waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. A standard tip is 15% of your bill, no more or less". 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." 9.) "Forget brown eggs. They are identical to white eggs in taste but are often priced higher". 10.) "Brand-name hot dogs are more than double the price of generics or store brands... enjoy comparable quality for a lot less money". 11.) "Always buy orange, grapefruit or apple juice in frozen concentrate.... Juice in cartons or glass containers are up to twice as expensive, and the quality is generally no better." 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". He also names the following products you should buy generically: Green beans, Mayonnaise, Corn Oil, Tomato Sauce, Bologna, Cheddar Cheese blocks, and Oatmeal (generic vs. Quaker) I look forward to your comments. Scott Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892123118/cyberhaven00/103-1003512-2321422 Image: http://www.capital-books.com/book%20images/1892123118.jpg Thu Jan 02 00:46:11 -0800 2003 0 bunnyr 1 1585423 Jack Weber is the anti-chowhound. Thu Jan 02 01:02:22 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Stanley Stephan 2 1585612 I agree. In the mid to late 70's, there was an article in either Family Circle or Woman's Day magazine titled something like "I feed my family of 4 on $100 per month." There were some good suggestions such as checking out generic brands, couponing and shopping sales. But there were also statements like "I buy frozen concentrate for juice, and if the label says to dilute with 3 cans of water per can of concentrate I use 4 or 5 cans of water." A few issues later there was a rebuttal article titled "I feed my family of 4 on $125 per week." The author said that one of the ways she expressed her love for her family was to feed them delicious food, and was willing to spend the money necessary to do so. On the whole I am more in tune with the second philosophy. To my mind there is a difference between being frugal and being cheap. I have limited money, and want to save money. But I also want good value for my money, and, often, the cheapest item is not the best value. I also love good food, and am not willing to compromise on quality. I would rather do without something most of the time and buy good quality when I do get it. I rarely cook red meat, for reasons of health and personal preference as well as money issues, but when I do buy meat, I go to a good butcher. It is more expensive, but, in my opinion, better value. I rarely buy processed food, because I know that what I make is healthier and tastes better. I also really enjoy cooking and baking. The fact that it is cheaper to make my own is a bonus, but not the main reason I do it. Another point not raised by Mr. Weber is the value of time. Sometimes I am willing to pay more to buy something at a store nearer home, rather than spend my time and energy (not to mention carfare) to get it someplace cheaper that is far away. I don't have time to travel from supermarket to supermarket to get what is on sale at each one. It comes down to a question of priorities. There are areas where I economize much more than I do on food. I am sure that there are other people for whom food is less of a priority, but that is sort of the definition of an un-chowhound. Thu Jan 02 20:32:41 -0800 2003 1585423 0 ruth arcone 1 1585426 The guy generally doesn't know what he's talking about. The branded chicken IS better, there is a gross difference in hot dogs, and if he never tips a waiter more than 15 percent, I would like to find him and beat him. I've been there, thinking about going back, and can tell you they earn every last damn penny of the tip. Thu Jan 02 01:14:21 -0800 2003 1585419 0 JK Grence (the Cosmic Jester) 2 1585446 I've read several chicken taste-testing articles over the years, and the results were always unpredictable: some name brands do well, and some are beat out by cheap brands. Like everything, you need to use your own judgement. Without a taste test of your own, you might be throwing your money away. Thu Jan 02 08:54:09 -0800 2003 1585426 0 ironmom 2 1586075 Not in my book - good waiters deserve a good tip, average waiters deserve an average tip, and bad waiters deserve to be fired. Fri Jan 10 14:35:56 -0800 2003 1585426 0 Debbie 1 1585429 I disagree with most of the suggestions posted, however, there are a couple that aren't too far off the mark. Brown eggs are basically the same as white eggs, there really is no reason for them to be more expensive (unless of course it's a fertilized egg). The color of the breed of chicken determines the color of the egg, as in Rhode Island Red hens produce brown eggs. Branded vs. unbranded chicken may or may not be the same. If you're buying an organic, free-range chicken, such as a Rocky, or Rosie or and Empire for Kosher reasons, there is a difference, i.e. no hormones or antibiotics. If not eating hormones or antibiotics which have not been prescribed for you is important to you, then there is a BIG difference in chickens. The easiest way to save money on chicken purchases is to buy a whole chicken and cut it up yourself. Parts, boneless, skinless and all their various incarnations are way more expensive than a whole chicken. And cutting up a chicken isn't that hard. It just takes a little practice. Most of the major manufacturers private label for the major grocery store chains. Some of the the private labels really are identical to the name brand, a lot will depend upon what kind of product specification the grocery store chain has established with the manufacturer. Tomato products are NOT created equal. Cooks Illustrated has done multiple canned tomato comparisons with the results being pretty dismal. There are huge difference in quality between the name brands, it stands to reason there will be differences in the private labels as well. Rice is pretty easy. Why buy packaged when you can buy from the bulk bins and save way more than even buying the private label package...........plus you can buy as much or as little as you think you need. I do agree with him about the portion sizes on resaturant meals these days, some of them are really out of control. Sharing does make sense. I've done quite a bit of it recently and most restaurants haven't seemed to mind. Did he mention, though, that some restaurants have an "extra plate" or "sharing" surcharge? And I absolutely agree with the poster below who said that 15% no more/no less was misdirected. Most waitstaff do work hard for what they earn, to arbitrarily set a number and stick to it no matter what seems a little rigid and inflexible. There are a lot more effective ways to save money on food than some of the ones this guy suggested. I used to routinely save 18-20% on my grocery bill, but it's always a challenge because the stores keep changing the rules ;-) Thu Jan 02 02:20:19 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Gayla 2 1585437 Well, maybe it's being a New Englander, where brown eggs are the norm, but there is one advantage to brown eggs over white: it is usually a lot easier to identify and retrieve eggshell bits, because the brown exterior/white interior makes them easier to find in batters, etc. Thu Jan 02 07:52:55 -0800 2003 1585429 0 Karl S. 3 1585440 Do you find that brown eggs have thicker shells? Lately I've had the impression that brown eggs have a smaller incidence of thin or hairline cracked areas when I examine the cartons prior to purchase. (I eat raw eggs...trying to lessen my salmonella chances) Thu Jan 02 08:23:27 -0800 2003 1585437 0 danna 4 1585452 I grew up on white eggs and switched to brown up here in New England, and now that you mention it, I see much fewer broken eggs in the cartons in the supermarket. I never thought about why but thicker shells would make sense. Incidentally, white eggs are cheaper than brown around here, proving to me that it's all a simple matter of the egg producers charging more for the locally popular color just because they can. Thu Jan 02 09:50:22 -0800 2003 1585440 0 Chris VR 5 1585457 White eggs are much cheaper, and I don't taste any difference in fried, poached, or scrambled. I find they're more likely to be cracked at a supermarket than a small local market, where less anonymous product handling occurs. I think they probably prescreen them before putting them in the case, too. Thu Jan 02 10:12:07 -0800 2003 1585452 0 ironmom 6 1585466 I feel like I remember when I was doing shopping in NY/Long Island that brown eggs were cheaper vs. white. They taste the same, so I buy what's cheapes unless I'm on an organic, free range kick. BTW brown eggs make funky colored easter eggs. Thu Jan 02 11:14:11 -0800 2003 1585457 0 Chris VR 7 1585468 They charge what the market will bear. In New England, brown eggs are more highly prized, and you can pay $.40 a dozen more. I had always heard that where white eggs are preferred, they cost more. Thu Jan 02 11:25:48 -0800 2003 1585466 0 ironmom 8 1585478 Not sure it's that simple. I often see brown eggs for less. I think the pricing is more of a supply issue, and I would think there is a futures market which dictates the wholesale price. Thu Jan 02 12:30:14 -0800 2003 1585468 0 AlanH 9 1585487 In my state they raise both white and brown eggs. I would think that the white should be more expensive, as they might need more careful handling, but they have always been significantly cheaper. If a product is always cheaper where I live, and more expensive where you are, and not more local to either place, then futures are not the issue. People around here prize brown eggs more highly, and are willing to pay more for them, so the supermarket charges what the market will bear. The reverse is probably true in your area. Thu Jan 02 12:48:06 -0800 2003 1585478 0 ironmom 10 1585508 If I may proffer a theory here, I've noticed that brown eggs are often more expensive than white in "the country" and cheaper than white in "the city". Here in Vermont, brown eggs are prized over white, often because that indicates a more local, therefore fresher, product. Brown eggs are anywhere from $0.20 - $0.40 more per dozen than white. In more urban areas, white eggs may be perceived as purer and cleaner than their rustic brown cousins, and therefore command a higher price. I think a similar philosophy originally drove the maple syrup grading system. Even now I have to laugh when I watch out-of-state vacationers ponying up an extra 5 bucks a gallon for Light Grade A syrup, when we all know the good stuff is the Grade B Dark Amber. Thu Jan 02 14:11:24 -0800 2003 1585487 0 GG Mora 11 1585516 Ey-uh. For the background of non-New Englanders only, since you may not grasp the context: To quote the enterprising jingle of the New England poultry industry: "Brown eggs are local eggs, and local eggs are fresh", which ain't necessarily so (but is true enough that I don't completely dismiss it out of hand). Thu Jan 02 14:26:51 -0800 2003 1585508 0 Karl S. 12 1585663 Anybody that buys eggs directly from the farm knows what color their local eggs are... I buy mine at Chip-in Farm in Bedford, MA - and they are brown. That doesn't mean that all MA or NE eggs are brown, but I believe that the majority are. I periodically buy eggs in the stop'n shop and every single time, I wonder why I didn't make the drive to Bedford. When I crack the egg into the pan and the white just runs all over it while the yolk either breaks right away or sits so flat that it might as well have broken... The farm-fresh egg yolks are firm and more orange. I do eat eggs raw quite often (Japanese background) and I can not only feel the textural difference, but I can taste the difference. Can you imagine eating some delicious Sukiyaki with some yucky drippy egg dip? Much better when it's a fresh egg with some real body. Then, slurping it in with the meat is soooo much better! Fri Jan 03 00:52:39 -0800 2003 1585516 0 applehome 13 1585718 Does anyone remember the old radio jingle: "Brown eggs are local eggs, and local eggs are fresh"?? Here in Virginia, brown eggs are not local, so I don't buy brown eggs. Fri Jan 03 11:59:39 -0800 2003 1585663 0 Bob W. 10 1585521 Massachusetts? I bought large brown eggs at Roche Bros for .69/doz last week. White were .99. Thu Jan 02 14:52:35 -0800 2003 1585487 0 AlanH 11 1585541 Can't comment on your market, I never shop in Mass. Thu Jan 02 16:02:05 -0800 2003 1585521 0 ironmom 3 1585490 OTOH, I tend to find a lot more blood spots in brown eggs than in white. Don't ask me why. Thu Jan 02 12:54:17 -0800 2003 1585437 0 C. Fox 2 1585840 Our favorite Italian neighborhod restaurant charges $3.00 to split an entree between two people. However, the portions are huge, and they fix each of us a separate salad and divide the meal for us. We are still ahead because no way could one of us order another entree for $3. In fact, we are regulars and if we know the waiter or waitress, we are not even charged. We acutally don't split to save the money. Only so we don't have tons of food left and cart home. Anyway, that's my experience with the split plate charge. D. Fri Jan 03 18:05:39 -0800 2003 1585429 0 Donna - MI 1 1585432 1.) depends, if you must, skimp on dessert, unless it's really good. as for water, it is easy to obtain water, and you shouldn't feel guilty about it. 2.) true to a certain degree. 3.) depends on the place/cuisine. high end restaurants often discourage this. some places have a surcharge on sharing plates. some places serve small portions for price. 4.) not true. crowds indicate business level at particular location. you find crowds at the best restaurants, and the worst restaurnsts. gramercy tavern will be as crowded as the olive garden at TS. 5.) stick to 15% to save money. don't let the waitstaff make you feel guilty. some countries discourage tipping. only in this country are you made to feel guilty not to tip, and besides, tipping is built into the min wage system. 6.) if you just want to save money, then generics will save money. quality, however, will vary. 7.) cereals are the exception to the rule as name brand cereals use the same suppliers as generics. 8.) go to chinatown and get the chicken there. cheaper, and higher quality. 9.) depends. if brown and white eggs are produced the same way (originate from same farm), then the claim is true. 10.) do you really want to eat a generic hotdog? 11.) buy OJ when it's on sale. forget buying tropicana at $3.29/half gallon. you can get premium (non concentrate) for as low as 2 for $3.00 if a store brand is avaialble. 12.) dried pasta is cheaper, and many chefs prefer it. despite the claims otherwise, there are taste/quality differences. dried is better, imho. 13.) if you eat a lot of rice, skip this advice because different rices have different flavors/textures/hardness. you don't want to get stuck eating inferior quality rice day in and day out. He also names the following products you should buy generically: Green beans - yes Mayonnaise - no, buy hellmans if you are on east coast. Corn Oil - yes, corn oil is corn oil. Tomato Sauce - yes. Bologna - no comment. Cheddar Cheese blocks - no comment. Oatmeal (generic vs. Quaker) - yes. Thu Jan 02 04:26:49 -0800 2003 1585419 0 joe 2 1585436 I have had some awful experiences with store brand cold cereals. I don't know if they use the same suppliers or not, but even if they do, the chains aren't all buying to the same specs as the name brands. Better to watch for sales on name brand cereals. They're way overpriced at regular retail. Buy in quantity on sale; the stuff keeps forever. Certain varieties also come at a good price in huge plastic bags, by non-name-brand manufacturers. I agree on the cost effectiveness of hot cereal, and I don't mind popping for store brand on these. You can get store brand on sale, or scoop from bulk. Thu Jan 02 05:24:19 -0800 2003 1585432 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1585485 With cereal, the only way is to bite the bullet and try it. Sometimes store brands are inferior, sometimes they're equivalent, and sometimes they're superior - it depends on personal taste as well as objective measures. personally, I prefer the store-brand raisin bran at one local chain to any of the big brand names; I like the texture and flavor of the flakes much better, and it's much, much cheaper. I don't think a blanket statement on canned goods applies. I buy very few canned goods, and for the things I regularly buy - tomatoes, beans, broth - the store brands are often notably inferior. I look for good prices on the brands I like and then stock up. I think both fresh and dry pasta have their places, and I personally wouldn't buy packaged fresh pasta from a supermarket anyway, but only from a specialty place, because I want it to be really fresh and of good quality. I use dry much more often for various reasons, and I think there's a tremendous difference in quality between inexpensive US-made pasta and what's imported from Italy. But there are really good Italian-made brands that are just as cheap as domestic ones. Thu Jan 02 12:44:07 -0800 2003 1585436 0 Caitlin McGrath 2 1585447 3. If you're eating in a high end restaurant, you're not on a budget. Otherwise, why order more food than you can eat? 8. Whoo, the cost of a trip to Chinatown will eliminate any savings possible on a year's worth of poultry. 10. Try and see. The lower priced brands are probably very similar to the middle priced brands. If you're not willing to taste and see, then you'll never know. 13. The only way to buy rice is in a giant sack at your local asian market, whether or not you are on a budget. Thu Jan 02 09:08:52 -0800 2003 1585432 0 ironmom 2 1585453 5) You Sir, are partially incorrect. Yes, you can save money at 15%. But "and besides, tipping is built into the min wage system." You have obviously never waited tables. Waitstaff makes on average less than 1/2 the hourly minimum wage. Last time I waited tables was in 1997, but the hourly wage was less than $3/hr. How is that legal? B/c tipping is considered to make up the difference. The reality is the hourly rate goes to pay your taxes; I never received a wage check over $25 for a week. Some countries discourage? Yeah, I'm sure the waitstaff would turn down a tip in those countries ... overseas, the server is paid via higher hourly wages (paid for by higher food prices, or at least I would imagine). Thu Jan 02 09:54:42 -0800 2003 1585432 0 Dax 2 1585474 7.) cereals are the exception to the rule as name brand cereals use the same suppliers as generics. This is not entirely true. Most private label cold cereals are produced by Ralston-Purina. Yeah, that's right, the same folks that make Dog Chow, Cat Chow and Monkey Chow.................. 8.) go to chinatown and get the chicken there. cheaper, and higher quality. Only if your local community *has* a Chinatown......... 9.) depends. if brown and white eggs are produced the same way (originate from same farm), then the claim is true. Not likely. It's the breed of chicken that determines the color of the egg, and most chicken farms only raise one or two varieties. There is no nutritional difference between a white egg, a brown egg, a blue egg, a green egg or a black egg. The color of the shell is a function of the breed of chicken and the color of the yolk inside is largely dependent upon the food which the chicken has been fed. With regard to eggs, color has virtually nothing to do with quality, taste or freshness. P.S. Southern California is currently experiencing an outbreak of Newcastle disease. A growing number of chickens have been euthanized. Expect the price of eggs (and possibly chicken) to go up in the SoCal market shortly. Thu Jan 02 12:15:02 -0800 2003 1585432 0 Gayla 1 1585433 I agree with most of what has been said so far and would like to add my 2 cents: I have full sympathy with the need/desire to economize and to get the most benefit from the money you spend. That sometimes means spending a little more to get something better and/or putting out a little more effort, as in the case of cutting up your own chickens (to which I'd add making stock from the bones). Consider joining a food cooperative if one's available. Generally they consider the quality of the food as well as the price and are sensitive to issues of pesticides, hormone additives, etc. Eliminating most processed foods from your diet will save you money and probably be more healthful. Consider for an example, "cereal" at $3-4/per box of mostly air and sugar vs making a bowl of freshly made oatmeal, wheatena, etc. at a fraction of the cost (And probably better for you, as well). You could explore a whole world of healthful grains for your breakfast. Other good places to shop for the price conscious (as well all the food curious) are Asian and other ethnic markets where you generally get the staples of the cuisine, such as rice, at a better price for better quality. As for restaurants, you're better off skipping either appetizer or dessert or sharing your entree with someone for health reasons. Unless I'm dining at a very special restaurant where I want to taste as much as possible, I seldom have both appetizer and dessert. Thu Jan 02 04:35:12 -0800 2003 1585419 0 saucyknave 1 1585435 1.) "In 9 our of 10 establishments, alcoholic beverages, appetizers and desserts are overpriced. Ask for ice water with a wedge of lemon and pass on the dessert and coffee". Yes, of course and it's easy to verify. However, when it comes down to it I'd rather have drinks than food. ;) 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". Ethnic restaurants are often an excellent value (Vietnamese is a notable example). However, I still want to eat french once in a while. 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". This is true, but it might be considered rude if the place is packed. We often do this but unless the place is totally dead we notify the hostess in advance. "Is it ok if we just have drinks and appetizers?" It will be unless they're slammed. Consider tipping higher than you normally would if it's busy. 4.) "Crowds are also a good indicator. If a place always seems busy, chances are something good is happening inside." Unless you're near a major tourist attraction. Of course, you must also consider the day of the week and the time of day. 5.) "Waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. A standard tip is 15% of your bill, no more or less". 15% is appropriate. If you are genuinely poor nobody will begrudge you for tipping the minimum. If you have a coupon or it's "happy hour" you should tip on the value rather than the actual bill. For table service never tip less than $1 per person no matter how cheap the food is. If you are a regular, tipping high will pay off in preferential treatment. I tip higher (especially in less expensive places) because I can afford to and I know that they work harder for less money than I do. 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) They are different and we all have personal tastes. The problem with generic is that it may not be consistent. House brands can switch suppliers at any time to keep costs down so it may not be the same product that you liked last time. 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." Organic Free Range tastes better. If you're putting it in sauce it might not matter but I prefer to support organic farmers whenever possible. 9.) "Forget brown eggs. They are identical to white eggs in taste but are often priced higher". No. Different types of chickens lay different eggs and they taste differently. Brown eggs almost always have more flavor. 10.) "Brand-name hot dogs are more than double the price of generics or store brands... enjoy comparable quality for a lot less money". I don't eat hot dogs, but this is really the same questions as 6 and 7. 11.) "Always buy orange, grapefruit or apple juice in frozen concentrate.... Juice in cartons or glass containers are up to twice as expensive, and the quality is generally no better." Most but not all ready to drink juices are made from concentrate anyway so it probably doesn't matter (read the label). Quality/flavor does vary by brand so just find one you like. Juices which are not from concentrate are expensive but they taste much better. 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." Fresh pasta has a different texture, but it only really makes a difference (to me) with stuffed things (like ravioli). 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". This is the generic question again. With a brand name you will get consistency. If you can't tell the difference then it doesn't matter. Thu Jan 02 05:01:10 -0800 2003 1585419 0 BigLizard 1 1585438 You probably have enough opinions by now to get a good idea of the usefullness of this book but... I have to through in my two cents as well on a few items: 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". -If you go to ethnic restaurants that are not trying to be haute cuisine, yes. 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". - My husband and I do this often but you do have to make sure there is no extra plate charge or your back to where you started from. We typically will split an appetizer and entree or do two salads and and entree if the servings are large. Do still tip accordingly,the wait staff still served 2 people regardless of the number of entrees ordered. 4.) "Crowds are also a good indicator. If a place always seems busy, chances are something good is happening inside." - Not even close to true! Look at the lines at lunch getting into a McDonalds or Burger King. I personally look to see WHO is going into the establishment. 5.) "Waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. A standard tip is 15% of your bill, no more or less". - Unless of course they were outstanding, then I tip more. I have no problem not tipping if their service was crappy! I also don't blame bad food on the wait staff, they just serve it, not cook it. 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". - Can be true but is not the rule. I've had no problems with certain store brands (Whole Foods, SuperFresh, and others) but not all. I've nearly keeled over from other generic brands. Problem is, you wont know until you crack the can or box open. 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) - WRONG! I've had difference experiences between BRAND names for that matter. Again, some generics taste better than others. Total Raisin Branis delicious but Giant Foods version is wet card board. Quaker cereals that come in a bag tend to be very good though. Again, try it once but don't assume all are a like. 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." - Depends. I've found no difference between store brand and name brand standard chicken but Kosher and free range are a whole different story. I agree with the suggestion to learn to cut up your own chicken (something I'm learing to do now. 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". - I agree here but I do not agree with the poster who mentions they always buy bulk (nothing on you). Bulk is fine if the food is turned over regularly. I've also purchased bulk that was sitting around way too long (promptly returned). Good luck. Thu Jan 02 08:10:05 -0800 2003 1585419 0 SisterT 1 1585442 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." For linguini and fettuccini this is most probably true for most people. However, fresh pasta is made with eggs, and most dried pasta is not. Another point is that wide pastas (pappardelle and fazolette) are only available fresh. Bottom line: there are reasons for buying (or MAKING) fresh pasta, but you should know why you are doing so. Thu Jan 02 08:41:20 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Paul H 2 1585444 I have found that fresh, homemade pasta is always fabulous - and cheap, which fits the budget of a person who is trying to shrink their bills (me). Fresh national brand pasta is much more expensive, while being drastically inferior to the homemade. If you are able to pay boutique prices for a local brand, you're not on a budget. Thu Jan 02 08:50:44 -0800 2003 1585442 0 ironmom 2 1585448 Pappardelle and Fazzoletti are both available dried packaged under the Delverde label. The Fazzoletti is packaged as a large square under the name Ondine and might have been relabled as Lasagne. The stuff makes great no boil lasagne and also works great for Canneloni. I actually think the dried pasta works much better for lasagna than fresh does(the fresh stuff gets kind of gummy). Thu Jan 02 09:17:00 -0800 2003 1585442 0 DodinBouffant 3 1585449 Thank you, DodinBouffant, for this report on a pasta brand I was not aware of. This is why I love chowhound! Thu Jan 02 09:23:08 -0800 2003 1585448 0 Paul H 1 1585459 Why are you asking people who are committed to having the best food, to verify how to eat cheaply? Not that we're completely insensitive to costs, but if the goal is to eat cheaply, you would never see truffles or caviar, and you would indeed do your best at every turn to save money instead of getting a better, unique food experience. It's a completely different perspective. From a Japanese perspective, this guy knows nothing whatsoever about rice - different brands, even of the same type have incredibly different flavors and textures. As far as eggs go, the answer is to always get the freshest - if your local farm produces brown eggs, then you should indeed be buying brown. And as to tipping, giving everybody a flat 15% totally destroys the whole purpose of a gratuity. You might as well be in another country that includes all service fees and pays the server well to be a well-trained professional. Our tradition is to pay low salaries and pay additional incentives based on the service level - a truly American attempt to improve service by using a reward for performance methodology, thus applying our finely honed capitalist ethics and productivity goals... ;) But honestly, since we do indeed have a system like this, don't you want to give the person that really busted butt to give you a perfect dining experience a lot more than the person that couldn't bring the food over to you hot because they had an important conversation to finish with the busboy? Thu Jan 02 10:28:54 -0800 2003 1585419 0 applehome 2 1585465 Someone who has the cash to spend and is willing to pay whatever it takes to get, for instance, free range chicken, has a different set of priorities that may not be relevant to someone whose income doesn't always seem to allow purchase of supermarket quality meat. Thu Jan 02 11:05:16 -0800 2003 1585459 0 ironmom 3 1585480 If someone isn't buying 'supermarket quality meat', what are they buying ? Roadkill ? Freshly killed dog from the back of a pickup truck ? Besides the butcher, where else can you buy meat ? Thu Jan 02 12:37:48 -0800 2003 1585465 0 FatBob 4 1585484 What butcher? Where I am there's "supermarket quality meat" with no brand name, higher priced product with a brand name and implied or outright label claims, and internet meat, priced for people who don't have to ask how much it costs. Thu Jan 02 12:42:51 -0800 2003 1585480 0 ironmom 2 1585631 "Why are you asking people who are committed to having the best food, to verify how to eat cheaply?" I think you'd better read the post again. I was merely asking whether the suggestions Mr. Weber gave were good ideas. (or not) Scott Thu Jan 02 21:16:45 -0800 2003 1585459 0 bunnyr 3 1585656 I guess you're going to have to write a treatise explaining the difference between "verifying how to eat cheaply" and "asking whether the suggestions Mr. Weber gave were good ideas" (within the context of the thread). I had tongue firmly in cheek (it's not as firmly in place now), but the point is that eating cheaply (or verifying whether the suggestions of Mr. Weber's [to eat cheaply] were good ideas), may not be the particular expertise or concern of the regular contributors. I haven't been here that long, but I see a lot of concern for quality and uniqueness, not necessarily for cost-cutting. Someone else posted that these may actually be antithetical. I would second that. Fri Jan 03 00:20:25 -0800 2003 1585631 0 applehome 4 1585760 And if you read the many responses to this thread that describe how discriminating hounds economize while eating really well, you'll find that your opinion doesn't necessarily jibe with theirs (I've been around a long time and will vouch for their good taste and chowhound bona fides). Access to the internet, and therefore Chowhound, and interest in food of the best quality don't indicate unlimited, or even large, levels of disposable income, and a lack of disposable income doesn't preclude wanting to figure out how eat as deliciously as possible within one's means. This thread addresses chowhounding reality for some, which is just as valuable as the terrific fantasy food life we all get from reading Chowhound, no matter what we're eating in real time. Fri Jan 03 14:02:35 -0800 2003 1585656 0 Caitlin McGrath 5 1585854 I would expect that a good thread (like this one) would have lots of good input (e.g. - your steel cut oats). That doesn't necessarily give merit to either Weber's original ascersions (which many agree are wrong and irrelevant) or to the beneficence of the original poster in asking for the commentary. Economizing while eating well was not the original subject. The particular methods for doing so in the original post was the subject. As I said in the other response to you, discussing this guy's (Weber) methods is pretty meaningless - thank goodness everybody got off on lots of other good points. Fri Jan 03 18:49:16 -0800 2003 1585760 0 applehome 1 1585470 I often buy canned garbanzos. I can tell you that S&W is way ahead of Brand X. The list didn't mention that cheap eats stable (here on my coast) -- tortillas and beans. Both can be gotten for cheap at Mexican markets, and will be much more costly at your local supermarket. Thu Jan 02 11:36:40 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Sharuf 2 1585610 S&W has usually has more added sugar in their canned goods(especially the canned bean varieties)than generic or other brands. I find their canned beans too sweet to use in most recipes. Thu Jan 02 20:22:57 -0800 2003 1585470 0 2chez mike 3 1585746 I haven't noticed that with the garbanzos. What I have noticed is that the beans are bigger and prettier than the rest, and the cans more fully-packed, so you get more bean for the buck. Also, they frequently go on sale for 2/$1 and that's when I pounce, and I'm ready to do hummus at a moment's notice. Fri Jan 03 13:08:26 -0800 2003 1585610 0 Sharuf 1 1585473 This book is proof that one size does not fit all. Some of his suggestions might be OK, I guess, especially for the cash-strapped, but he doesn't seem to care how his food actually tastes. R Thu Jan 02 11:51:12 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Seattle Rose 1 1585477 A couple things he wrote are just crazy. Rice is not a generic product. I always have 3 or 4 different rices--basmati, jasmine, arborio, and Nishiki (or similar Japanese style). Each is distinct and used for different dishes. Here in my right to starve state, waitstaff gets $2.13 an hour before tips. If I don't reward a good server with more than 15%, they won't be able to make a living. If you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat out. But I do agree that many "ethnic" restaurants offer better food value than even fast food joints. And the food is almost always more interesting and more better :). Thu Jan 02 12:22:08 -0800 2003 1585419 0 e.d. 2 1585507 Of course you can save money by espousing asceticism. I don't agree with any of the tips at all, besides the cereal and canned foods suggestion. I try not to be terribly brand-loyal. Whatever brand of the particular item I need happens to be on sale that week is what I buy. If Hydrox is on sale, I won't touch the Oreos. If there's a special on Lay's potato chips, I'll forgo my favorite Wise NY Deli chips. In regards to the rice comment, I took the author to mean brands, not varieties. That it generic because it is grown, not manufactured. For instance, buying little boxes of overpriced Uncle Ben's instead of the same variety in unlabeled plastic bags or hefty sacks from Asian food stores (what I always do). Thu Jan 02 14:06:56 -0800 2003 1585477 0 123 1 1585522 I'd agree with Seattle Rose. I know people who really don't care how their food tastes, and this book is for them. For people who cook and care about not only the taste, but also the sustainability and ecological soundness (not to mention humanity) of how their food is grown/produced, his tips are not for them. It seems often to me that the food produced in the most chemical-laden, least ecologically safe, and least humane way is always the least expensive. I think better tips would be for those who would like to save money on food, but still like to save money on food: 1) Frequent farmer's markets -- unless it is a special or rare variety of produce, the prices are often better than supermarkets. Not to mention fresher, tastier, more organic options, greater variety, etc, etc. 2) Buy locally-produced whenever possible. It's often, though not always, cheaper. 3) Avoid buying baked goods -- especially sweets. For pennies you can bake your own desserts, with only a little skill. Never buy prepackaged mixes. For about 2$ of flour, butter, sugar and eggs, you can make a much better cake than those 3.59$ mixes that make you add eggs and oil anyway. 4) Learn to bake your own bread. You'll avoid the hydrogenated fat in many supermarket brands, and once you learn how the bread is so much better. 5) Don't buy frozen juice or juice from concentrate. Buy well-priced produce to squeeze yourself (oranges, grapefruit, lemons and limes for economical and delicious homemade lemonade/limeade). Juice shouldn't be drunk in large quantities anyway (especially by children). 4-6 ounces a day should be enough for anyone, and for this amount fresh-squeezed produce should be similar in price or cheaper (not to mention healthier, more delicious, more vitamins, etc.). 6) Learn to love and cook with dried pulses of every kind (beans, peas, lentils.). Once you've learned how to make several dishes from these healthy low-fat foods, you'll end up saving a lot of money for every meal you make from them. 7) And up there in importance with buying locally -- buy seasonally! Fruits, vegetables, meats, and fish all taste better and cost less in their own seasons. Learn to eat other vegetables and fruits that you hadn't tried before, highlighting them during their season. 8) Be very careful about buying in bulk. Often the food goes bad before you can eat it, or you've tired of it, and then all the savings is gone. Rather try to select food adequate for what your family will eat in one to two sittings. This saves money by avoiding waste, and also discourages overeating. Totally non-perishable food items (and how many of those are there, truly?) can be bought in bulk if the savings is truly significant. 9) Grow your own herbs. You can do this in small pots on a windowsill, or outside on a patio/deck in larger pots, or outside in the summertime if you have a garden, or year-round in some climates. Fresh herbs are expensive in the grocery store, and often are sold in much larger bunches than will be used up before it spoils. Most herbs are easy to grow (ask the nurseryman or nurserywoman which potted herbs are easy to grow and to give you tips), and they are, of course, the very freshest and most delicious for your cooking, too. I think you can implement all of these tips without sacrificing (indeed, actually increasing) the taste, quality, and healthiness of your food. You may not save as much as Mr. Weber says, but you will save money. And you will probably save money on medical bills down the road by eating healthier food.... My impression of what Mr. Weber is trying to do is to cut costs without creating any at-home work to offset the cost savings. The obvious sacrifice is in flavor and quality. For those of us who are willing to cook and grow and bake a little, the savings can be substantial. As for his restaurant suggestions, I think they are mostly true. I don't agree with his tipping -- 15% is for adequate service, and then I go up from there for good and excellent service. I agree "if you can't afford to tip don't eat out". Takeout is always an option from certain places, which will obviously save on service tipping, beverages, etc. Appetizers, salads, beverages, and desserts are often overpriced, I do agree. But only at mediocre restaurants would I consider omitting them entirely on price consideration alone (rather on taste and level of hunger) -- and why are we eating at mediocre restaurants anyway! My advice would be "avoid eating out unless you know it's a good restaurant, or if you are trying out a new place" Try to have food at home to cook more often (which is always cheaper than going out -- Ex: I bought a prime leg of lamb for 40$. I fed eight people, plus a few more dollars for side dishes and salads. What can you get a restaurant for 40$ for eight people? What can you get for two people?) so that you're not eating out because of desperation and hunger, but rather because you chose to and your budget allows it. I think of all the people in the world, in poor developing countries, who spend 80% of their income on food. Food is so unbelievably cheap and good in America -- I think we should find other things to scrimp on! The second car... the three tvs per household... Sorry to preach! Thu Jan 02 15:07:45 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Mrs. Smith 2 1585532 I agreed w/ almost everything! But...why shouldn't you drink lots of juice? And I don't think there's any way I could juice my own oranges for the same cost as buying in the store. Thu Jan 02 15:39:32 -0800 2003 1585522 0 danna 3 1585540 Juice is mostly sugar. It should not displace other foods. In fact, a recent study showed that people who drink lots of juice tend to be fatter than people who drink mostly water. I couldn't make citrus juice for anywhere close to the cost of buying it in a store. Maybe if you live somewhere that produces locally... And our farmers markets, open only a few months of the year, are not really an economical alternative, as the produce is usually significantly more expensive than markets. Thu Jan 02 15:59:01 -0800 2003 1585532 0 ironmom 4 1585670 My experience with farmers' markets (Lansing, Michigan) is that they are less expensive than supermarket stuff, not even taking into account the fact that the food is fresher (picked that day or the day before vs. however long ago something had to be picked in California to get it here the same day I'm off at the farmers' market), there is often much more variety, and much of the produce is raised organically or, if not, sprayed only when there are pests to deter rather than on a predetermined schedule. Of course, I often end up spending more because the offerings are irresistible! Fri Jan 03 02:51:21 -0800 2003 1585540 0 Timowitz 3 1585550 First ingredients are often high fructose syrup. Same stuff as in tons of processed foods that helps make America fatter! Thu Jan 02 16:33:45 -0800 2003 1585532 0 Dax 4 1585553 No No! Not juice! merely it's evil imitator the "juice drink". Big difference. Thu Jan 02 16:36:47 -0800 2003 1585550 0 danna 5 1585555 Very little difference. All the vitamins have been cooked away in the canning process. Thu Jan 02 16:41:48 -0800 2003 1585553 0 ironmom 3 1585569 Well, I've heard from my pediatrician that children, especially, shouldn't drink a lot of juice since it is almost as high in sugar as sodapop. Especially if the kids drink it instead of milk (this doctor is a proponent of children drinking cow's milk -- and I agree with him. I realize others disagree with this. Regardless of whether you think kids should drink milk or not, the sugar content of orange and apple juice is really high). Also, drinking a lot of juice can cause stomach acid problems -- in fact, in large quantities, it's more corrosive to your digestive system than coffee. I think it's more important that kids don't overdo juice than adults. I personally can't handle more than a small amount of juice -- and the "from concentrate" stuff causes many more tummy aches than the fresh stuff I squeeze for me. I remember the little old fashioned "juice glasses" and that seems about a right amount of serving for me. If your household drinks a lot of juice perhaps it's not more economical to squeeze your own -- I can get "juice" oranges (small, ugly, but very juicy) here for very cheap, but I live in California. I try to eat more whole fruits, too, so I get more fiber and nutrients from the peel, etc. That's personal taste though. I probably should have put these caveats in my original post. Thu Jan 02 17:01:54 -0800 2003 1585532 0 Mrs. Smith 1 1585525 The thought of buying generic mayonnaise is revolting. In fact, anything other than Hellman's (Best Foods) is revolting. Thu Jan 02 15:15:14 -0800 2003 1585419 0 valerie 2 1585544 Heresy! Duke's : there is no substitute. Thu Jan 02 16:15:05 -0800 2003 1585525 0 Elvis 1 1585531 Generic rice and tomato sauce??!!! You have got to be kidding. Thu Jan 02 15:38:33 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Hunter 1 1585556 I always try generic or store brand canned goods, cereals, dairy products,and pasta first. If they are obviously inferior to name brands, I just don't buy them again. Usually I can't tell much difference. I do splurge on some higher-priced products like Texmati rice because it has a beautiful long grain and I love its aroma. Amen to the posters who mentioned cutting up whole chickens (and making stock with the bony parts). No need to buy chicken parts. We do make most of our bread and baked goods, and back when I was only working part time I even made granola and homemade grapenuts. Certainly that can be less expensive and of better quality than buying standard supermarket products. But there just isn't always time for all that. (Doesn't it always seem like you either have plenty of time, and no money to go do things with, or enough money, but no time to go spend it?) To me, the fun of grocery shopping is looking at the weekly specials and thinking of all the dishes I can prepare using that week's most economical buys. Thu Jan 02 16:43:54 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Zorra 1 1585560 Re point 4, never judge a restaurant by the crowd of people. Yes a good crowd may be indicative of a popular establishment, that that does not necessary equate to a good dining experience. Most people are not as discriminating as 'hounds. Re point 6, in my youth I was a rent-a-cop patrolling a major food processor's plant. They would make jams and jellies, ketchup and tomato sauce's among other items. During the season they would process 4 million pounds of tomatos every week, which arrived in these huge gondolas atop 18-wheelers. The sugar would arrive by railroad grain cars and was stored in a huge silo. The strawberries would arrive in plastic bag lined 50 gallon drums. One area of the plant that was fenced off, and which I had a key to, and had to go in to on my rounds to punch my watchman's clock was called the Label Room. This was an area that I would estimate took up at least 200 square feet of floor space, with floor to celing shelving. On the shelving was every conceivable food "brand" lable you could imagine. Not just super-market house brands, but brands such as Kern Foods and Progresso. So, yes, generally all canned goods are the same, or very similar. Re point 10, I have yet to find a generic hot dog that in any way measures up to a Hebrew National Dinner Frank. Remember, 'hounds are discriminating. Re point 11, true, if you read the label on Minute Maid juice containers they admit that it is made from concentrate, but have you ever mixed water and frozen concentrate, then drank it and felt that it tasted as good as some of the pre-mixed Minute Maid you buy in a carton or large 128 ounce plastic container? I haven't. Thu Jan 02 16:53:26 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Chino Wayne 2 1585674 Having worked at a frozen food/canning plant in my youth (mostly meat products), I agree. There were no changes in what we did, just changes in labels. David "Zeb" Cook Fri Jan 03 06:48:51 -0800 2003 1585560 0 David "Zeb" Cook 1 1585573 Seems to me that if your sole aim is to save money on food, then a) don't go out to restaurants at all and b) subsist primarily on legumes and grains in various forms, with a little meat and a few vegetables thrown in for nutrition's sake. But of course most of us have other goals and considerations as well: flavor, for one. Convenience, for another. Environmental concerns. Cooking and eating in today's world involves a balance of all these concerns, and we all choose our own way of finding the balance that works for us. Mr. Weber's path seems to be saving money at the expense of quality -- it might be worth it to him, but it's not worth it to me. I personally spend a lot more money on organically/naturally raised meats (and eggs) at the butcher shop down the street than I would if I bought packaged meats at the local supermarket, but the expense is worth it to me because, first, the natural stuff tastes better; second, I think it's more humane; and third, I like to support small local businesses when I can. I save money not by buying cheaper meat but by buying a lot less of it than I used to. Cooking "from scratch" is undeniably less expensive than either eating out or buying prepared foods, but not everyone has the time or the skill to cook that way. We make choices; we compromise. If Mr. Weber's compromises seem reasonable to you, then follow them. But there are other ways to save money than by buying generic hot dogs. Thu Jan 02 17:15:58 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 1 1585603 It's a shame that someone made money writing such an insulting book that features comments like this. I also wonder what your purpose is in posting it on this board? Most of the people on here really care about how something tastes and have a respect for food and the dining experience which this seems to make a mockery of. Sorry. Thu Jan 02 19:48:59 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Joe H. 2 1585620 Pipe Down! Whether or not you agree with these money-saving ideas, respect other hounds enough to not bash their posts. Thu Jan 02 20:56:59 -0800 2003 1585603 0 Jeff 3 1585625 What does any of this have to do with good food or the pursuit of finding it? It merely involves saving money, a simple matter when you really don't care what something tastes like. Unless I'm mistaken I didn't think that was what these boards are all about. Thu Jan 02 21:04:45 -0800 2003 1585620 0 Joe H. 4 1585634 Not everyone on this board is as savvy a hound as you are, and I think a lot of us can learn a few things from seeing Jack Weber's suggestions so thoroughly critiqued by so many knowledgeable hounds. I for one DO care about saving money, AND I care about the way food tastes. Suggestions on how to save money on food should be welcome here. It's up to the individual hound to determine if whatever gustatory sacrifice involved is worth it. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the cheaper stuff tastes better than the expensive stuff. Link: http://meglioranza.com Thu Jan 02 21:27:52 -0800 2003 1585625 0 Tom Meg 4 1585635 Gee Joe, chill. Some of us like to eat well even though we don't have unlimited food budgets like you do. Many of his recommendations suggest the use of personal judgement. Blind tests always show there are inexpensive gems waiting to be found and real sinkers among the trendy brands. Thu Jan 02 21:30:53 -0800 2003 1585625 0 ironmom 4 1585636 Also, he is specifically saying that two people should go to a restaurant, SKIP APPETIZERS, SKIP DESSERT AND SKIP ALL BEVERAGES, ORDERING ONLY WATER WITH THEIR SHARED MAIN COURSE. They should order nothing else because there is no value in it. I'm sorry but with comments like this I am simply not taking these as serious suggestions to reduce a food/dinner budget. He does make claims that generic tastes the same (#6), the quality is the same (#8), brand name hot dogs are comparable quality for less than half the money (#10), quality is no better for juice from frozen concentrate than juice in bottles. In short he is saying that taste matters. He is also saying that buying as cheaply as you possibly can will give you products that taste as well. This just isn't true across the board. Occasionally, of course, yes. But not in the categorical way he implies. When he starts saying that "dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta" I just cannot believe the author is serious. Anyway, if some of us choose to believe that "rice is generic," well, there's no point in my typing any longer. Next time I make risotto and have Chowhounds over to eat it I'll use Uncle Ben's with Kraft parmesan, even skip a few ingredients as unnecessarily expensive and, when it is finished, ask them to share while I pour their water. Maybe then I'll be able to afford to buy an entree for my wife when we go out to dinner this weekend. Thu Jan 02 21:37:58 -0800 2003 1585625 0 Joe H. 5 1585671 I don't know if you read Weber's book and are responding to items in it to which the original poster did not refer but the point included by the original poster do not anywhere say that appetizers should be skipped. Point 1 says skip dessert and beverages other than water. Point 3 says to share entrees where the entrees are large. It does not say to order nothing else whatsoever. I took that suggestion to mean something on the lines of "Waiter, we are each going to order an appetizer and then we'll split an entree." When he says that dry pasta is just as good as fresh, I assumed he meant the "fresh" pasta that is sold in those sealed plastic containers in supermarkets, not homemade fresh pasta or fresh pasta that one might buy in a specialty shop where it is made on the spot. Furthermore, "[d]ry pasta from factories is not necessarily less fine than the fresh pasta one can make at home. On the contrary, for many dishes, factory-made pasta is the better choice" (Marcella Hazan, Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking, page 128). That said, I have to say that I found many of Weber's suggestions to be absurd and obviously aimed at people who see food strictly as a fuel source, ignoring its sensual and aesthetic potential. Fri Jan 03 03:21:16 -0800 2003 1585636 0 Timowitz 6 1585716 The exact quote from point number one: "In 9 out of 10 establishments, alcoholic beverages, APPETIZERS and desserts are overpriced. Ask for ice water with a wedge of lemon and pass on the dessert and coffee." In number three he he specifically states that "a single entree in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two HUNGRY eaters." I understand there are two ways of interpreting his comment about appetizers but he is lumping them with alcoholic beverages and desserts as overpriced. For me, with him having clearly stated that "a single entree...is now more than enough to satisfy two HUNGRY eaters" it would ceertainly seem that in prudently following his recommendations the appetizers would be skipped also. After all if you are trying to "shrink your food bill" and the single entree is enough for two "HUNGRY eaters" why would you even consider two "overpriced" appetizers" let alone one? They should not be needed since, again, the "single entree is enough for two HUNGRY eaters." Also, with appetizers "overpriced" and not specifying splitting a single appetizer where he also does not talk about relative size of the portion it seems to be quite inconsistent with his theory to now suggest that while splitting the single entree you should also each have an "overpriced appetizer." Number 12 is quite specific, "dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3 less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands-EXPERTS find little difference in taste or quality." Forgive me but I'll argue this long into the night. Creamettes or some ultra cheap generic store brand linguini does not taste the same as dry artisinal linguini which costs four times as much. For someone who is truly skilled at making pasta from scratch neither can compare. We are quibbling with words and I respect there is an argument for your literal intrepretation as there is for my extrapolation which I still believe is correct. I do stand by it. My real objection to this piece is that most of the people on this board focus on food and taste (while often placing an equal emphasis on investing calories as well as dollars) and he has an agenda that I believe is best described by another below as "The UnChowhound." Fri Jan 03 11:57:00 -0800 2003 1585671 0 Joe H. 2 1585638 Uh, Hello, I was merely asking if Mr. Weber's ideas were any good. Several chowhounds (as no doubt you have decided not to read) agree with some of them. As for why I posted the message, as I said, I received the book as a gift, and many of the ideas presented by Mr. Weber I was reluctant to try until getting a second opinion on this board. Judging from your rather nasty reaction, it appears that you have something to lose if I follow Mr. Weber's suggestions, which actually makes me want to consider following them more. Luckily for me (and probably you), several much more mature and helpful responses were posted which I intend to follow. Thu Jan 02 21:44:54 -0800 2003 1585603 0 bunnyr 3 1585642 I read everything he wrote. Much of it has nothing to do with taste which he claims it does. There are legitimate suggestions to save money and reduce food budgets which do not involve sacrificing the quality and/or taste of what is being prepared. He overlooked many of these. A lot of the responses addressed this and gave a serious discussion to a number of the points. A number of others have pointed out that they believe he is wrong in some of his assertions. For me there are many of his statements that are either not practical (i.e. two people sharing a single main course and nothing else in a restaurant) or simply wrong (I noted five or six below) yet he presents them in verbiage that categorically state he is right and, most importantly, that his assertions are correct and make do difference in the taste or quality of the finished product. I am very surprised that so many on this board take his thoughts as serious suggestions on how to save money. That is their right as it is your's. Obviously we all have very different values and priorities. Other than two or three points I did not/do not believe that any others are valid and/or practical suggestions. Would you really go into a restaurant and order only one main course to share with a friend and have nothing else, only water? Thu Jan 02 22:00:28 -0800 2003 1585638 0 Joe H. 3 1586073 I suppose it is good to get a complete spectrum of responses, from those of us who want to hear the opinions of others on how to save money and still eat out, all the way up to those who are increasingly being referred to as 'Chowsnobs'. Fri Jan 10 10:46:51 -0800 2003 1585638 0 Anonymoose 1 1585660 After reading all of the reactions to my original post (many more reactions than I expected!!), you may (or may not) be interested in my opinions, most of which have not changed. 1.) "In 9 our of 10 establishments, alcoholic beverages, appetizers and desserts are overpriced. Ask for ice water with a wedge of lemon and pass on the dessert and coffee". This might be a tad unfair, because we are nondrinkers by choice so we tend to drink water or ice tea anyway (ice tea is usually $1.25 to $2.00 at good restaurants), so we really can't comment on wine. But I believe you can miss out on some great stuff if you skip appetizers and desserts. Mr. Weber needs to live life a little bit, I believe. 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". While this is true, both my wife in I have found "ethnic" restaurants to have better food, and that is more influential in our restaurant choices, especially here in southern New Hampshire, where chains have a tendency to rule. 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". We never split a plate unless we find a reason that the following question is not rude: "Sir, can you tell us if this dish is big enough for two, and then can you give us a second plate?". Other than one (1) Chinese restaurant, we have never had the will to do this. I am surprised at the number of people who DO have the balls to ask this question. We just think it's just plain rude. 4.) "Crowds are also a good indicator. If a place always seems busy, chances are something good is happening inside." Holy crow, I couldn't believe Mr. Weber's assumption here. I put this on Chowhound just to see if I was the only person who thought this statement was crazy. I wasn't! 5.) "Waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. A standard tip is 15% of your bill, no more or less". OK, I confess evil here. I already had seen the hundreds of posts on tipping, and just wanted to see what happened. At this point in Weber's book, I began to see that he must be a very bad restaurant date indeed. I believe that restaurant standard is 18%, but even with that, a rigid percentage of tip is not only silly, it is downright unfair to waitstaff. 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". I had always assumed that they are different, but it looks like that when we are talking about canned veggies and fruit, Mr. Weber is right here. 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) Blech, some of the generic cold cereals are terrible. "Bird seed!" cried my wife when I substituted a store brand for her beloved Post Honey flakes and almonds. "SALTY!" cried I when I tried a Wheaties substitute. However, after seeing some responses on Chowhound, we might try again. 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." I am still not sure about this. We have three grocery stores that sell their "own" chicken, and then we have the Perdue and Country Farm brands. I thought Perdue seemed better to me, but maybe I'm kidding myself? One thing for sure: the store brand and National brand prices are not really all that different. If southern NH had a butcher, maybe I'd try a chicken there! 9.) "Forget brown eggs. They are identical to white eggs in taste but are often priced higher". I loved the 11-deep message thread on this. We have switched from brown eggs to white eggs with no difference in taste. However, our farm friend in Mont Vernon, NH has free-range RI reds and a rooster, and occasionally we are lucky enough to get a dozen eggs from her. There is an enormous difference in quality in our friend's eggs. 10.) "Brand-name hot dogs are more than double the price of generics or store brands... enjoy comparable quality for a lot less money". I'm glad to see confirmation that this statement is stuff and nonsense. 11.) "Always buy orange, grapefruit or apple juice in frozen concentrate.... Juice in cartons or glass containers are up to twice as expensive, and the quality is generally no better." We've quit buying juice in concentrate form. We tend to buy store brand "Fresh squeezed" orange juice not from concentrate, or whatever non-concentrate orange juice is cheapest. However, I agree with Mr. Weber that if you're going to get concentrate, you might as well buy the concentrate and add the water yourself. But geez, come on Mr. Weber, buy the real stuff and spend the extra money. Live a little! 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." I was really surprised by the general Chowhound agreement on this. Fine, we'll continue to buy dry pasta. 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". After looking at Chowhound posts, I'm convinced that Mr. Weber is talking only about white rice, and who knows if he meant "regular", "long-grained", etc. Having said that, I guess he has a point if nobody cares that much about rice. I'm still not sure. Maybe I need more opinions? I can tell the difference, but not all that much. "He also names the following products you should buy generically: Green beans, Mayonnaise, Corn Oil, Tomato Sauce, Bologna, Cheddar Cheese blocks, and Oatmeal (generic vs. Quaker)" Green beans: Good grief, get the fresh ones, never buy from a can or frozen box. Mayonnaise: My wife will not accept anything other than Hellman's, and as others on this board agree, I guess I will not switch. Corn Oil: You know, we use vegetable oil or olive oil. Why corn oil? (just curious) Tomato Sauce: We agree with Mr. Weber here. Bologna: Does anybody on chowhound eat bologna? (just curious.) I eat it upon occasion, and never have understood why I do it other than to give my bowels some exercise. Cheddar Cheese blocks: Agree with Mr. Weber. Oatmeal: I saw on Chowhound somewhere (I forget where) that you can cook a rawer oat product and get a much better eating experience. Where do you get the stuff? Anyway, for store oats in a grocery store, we agree with Mr. Weber. Anybody think I'm nuts? Scott Fri Jan 03 00:42:18 -0800 2003 1585419 0 bunnyr 2 1585665 Wow - look at this thread! And half of these are books. Did you hit a nerve or what? You probably would have been safer putting this up on the "other" board - this one's for serious food people. Don't you agree that this is a "philosophy thing"? Should people that are most concerned with flavor, uniqueness, and overall quality of food and the eating experience even be concerned with these questions? Fri Jan 03 01:02:11 -0800 2003 1585660 0 applehome 3 1585758 "Should people that are most concerned with flavor, uniqueness, and overall quality of food and the eating experience even be concerned with these questions?" Plenty of "serious food people" (the ones who you say this board is for) do have to balance budgetary concerns with the others you mention. The book's author was wrong in most of his assertions, according to the "serious food people" who responded here, but Scott's query did spark a number of opinions and suggestions on the best way to satisfy our desire for superior flavor and quality in our foods and our eating experiences while living within the budgets our lives actually allow. Only people for whom money truly is no object can make those concerns paramount above all others, and cost is an object for most of us here, in varying degrees. You appear to be the one person who ddoesn't feel there's any merit to the discussion of Jack Weber's assertions, judging by your several posts to that effect. I for one, have found some useful and interesting commentary here. Fri Jan 03 13:51:14 -0800 2003 1585665 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1585848 There's merit to the discussion - I applauded that. The point I'm making is that there is indeed a fundamental philosophical difference between eating cheap and eating well. And I have a budget too - but I prioritize the eating experience, Jack Weber clearly does not. Are his pronouncements worthy of discussion by serious food people? Well... we're doing it, aren't we? I'm part of the discussion - the dialectic. I'm not taking a snobbish attitude as if to say that Weber's assertions are beneath the group's dignity. I'm simply saying that there is a difference between those that care for good food and those that don't - those that eat for fuel. For those that don't, there will forever be a complete inability to comprehend what the excitement and joy is all about. So - getting back to point - for those that do care for good food, regardless of their financial status, seeking methods for saving money that obviously do not take the quality aspects into account ought to be irrelevant. That said, there were plenty of posts in this thread that spoke of quality issues, so the discussion itself was a good learning experience, as you said. But I still maintain that this guy's (Weber) commentary has little to do with real food people. Fri Jan 03 18:31:53 -0800 2003 1585758 0 applehome 5 1585880 Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like we're thinking alike. I'm glad Scott posted it for some of the posts it elicited, but you're right, I can't see that Weber cares much about food. Fri Jan 03 22:43:18 -0800 2003 1585848 0 Caitlin McGrath 2 1585677 "12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." I was really surprised by the general Chowhound agreement on this. Fine, we'll continue to buy dry pasta." A late comment on this one: I am assuming he is comparing to store-made fresh pasta, which usually bears only a passing resemblence to home-made fresh pasta (unless you have nonnas in the back room of the store kneading, rolling and cutting the pasta, etc., which does happen sometime). In any event, the fresh versus dry issue properly speaking is not so much an issue of quality as of purpose/uses: they have different purposes and uses, and different saucing potential. And although not all dry pastas are equal, though many are quite good enough for the sauces Americans tend to use most frequently. Fri Jan 03 08:26:54 -0800 2003 1585660 0 Karl S. 2 1585687 C'mon, you can't be on a budget if you go out to restaurants that serve entrees large enough for 2 people (these places do exist!) and order two entrees, appetizers and desserts. It's rude for a restaurant to serve such gluttonous portions. The next day the leftovers are mostly swill. I think the 15% recommendation is a good one, not for people who are more generous and will ignore it, but for those who are tipping 10% and considering cutting back. It's hard to believe people like that can exist in ignorant bliss, but they do, and servers can tell you all about them. Fri Jan 03 09:31:06 -0800 2003 1585660 0 ironmom 3 1585711 What we are increasingly finding is that we'd rather get appetizers and desserts and skip the entree. Fri Jan 03 11:42:40 -0800 2003 1585687 0 Bob W. 4 1585721 It often seems now that an "appetizer" of today is served with a portion of starch and a vegetable which makes it entirely comparable to the "entree" of yesteryear. Fri Jan 03 12:02:20 -0800 2003 1585711 0 ironmom 2 1585715 Mayonnaise: Listen to your wife, she knows what she's talking about. Corn oil: I don't know why. I used to favor it because it was cheap, but it is fairly flavorless and for all I know may be made from genetically modified corn (would like to check on this before stating it as a fact). These days I keep olive and peanut oils around, for health and flavor (p'nut for its high smoke point too). Corn oil is a pretty yellow color though. Cheddar cheese: Actually there's a lot of variation here. The store brand I used to buy, before I knew there was better, tastes like rubber in comparison to the stuff I like now (Cabot's "aged 24 months" extra-sharp). I'm not saying all expensive brands are better than all cheap ones, but to me it is worth the trouble to do some taste experiments. Oatmeal: Agreed -- rolled oats is rolled oats is rolled oats. The "instant" and "quick" varieties have a different consistency, but taste fine... but regular rolled oats are cheaper and don't take *that* much longer. The oats the 'hounds have been raving about are steel-cut oats. They're cut into little pebbly bits instead of rolled flat. They take a long time to cook, but you really do end up with a different and, I think, more satisfying texture. They are quite expensive, at least in the US where they're not popular. I keep both around the house and save the steel-cut variety for those cold, blustery weekend mornings when you want something a little special and have the time to let it cook. Eggs: Yeah, I'm another one who's lucky enough to have a friend raising free range hens, and I'm totally spoiled. She lives 3 hours away, but I'm a fairly frequent visitor, and I always stock up when I'm there. I'm even looking around for a supplier closer to home for those in-between times, because those supermarket eggs are so discouraging -- even the "organic" ones. Fri Jan 03 11:54:27 -0800 2003 1585660 0 C. Fox 3 1585756 The secret to steel-cut oatmeal for breakfast is to put them on to soak in cold water (the amount you'll use to cook) before you go to bed. In the morning, they'll cook in about 15 minutes, like regular rolled oats. Toasting them in a dry frying pan for a few minutes before you start is a good thing, as well. Fri Jan 03 13:40:17 -0800 2003 1585715 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1585867 No, no... don't tell me... they're too *pricey* for every day... But I guess I know what I'm having tomorrow... better get to the kitchen now and get them started! Thanks for the tip! Fri Jan 03 21:04:08 -0800 2003 1585756 0 C. Fox 2 1585783 Hello Scott: Re: Oatmeal. I don't know if there is a "rawer" product, but steel-cut oats are alot chewier (and to my taste better) than rolled oats. Same nutritional value. McCains has an expensive metal-canister version that is good, if you can get a fairly fresh one. It's hard to tell if it's fresh, though, in teh store, so if you have a co-op or health food store which will sell you it in bulk, it is probably fresher (check with them and see if they know how often the bin is filled) Many find it a delicious cereal, and you might grow to like it better than rolled oats. I have. Fri Jan 03 15:29:52 -0800 2003 1585660 0 Mrs. Smith 2 1585855 My two cents on a few of these issues: 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". Not only are ethnic restaurants better value in the sense of food/money but also in the sense that you frequently get an experience that is memorable and the value of the meal is greater in that sense. 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". My wife and I frequently share our food but we both order entrees. This way you get to try more types of food. Not because we are cheap. 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". I actually prefer generic canned green chiles to national brands. They occassionally have chile skins still but always seemed smokier to me. I prefer S&W garbonzo beans to other brands but those are the only beans I buy canned. The rest of the beans I buy are dried which are not only cheaper but usually have a better texture as well. For some generic brands (notably mandarin oranges and water chestnuts) the apperance is inferior but the flavor is the same so there is some tradeoff that can be made depending on whet they are to be used for. Always fresh fruit and vegetables are preferable so when we can get these. Over my holiday we visited my in-laws in Fresno and for breakfast every day I had mandarin oranges right off their tree. Amazingly better than any canned variety. 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) There are some cases where the generics are acceptable. It seems to me that alot of the differences are not necessarily inferiority but preferences. On the other hand alot of generic cereals seem lighter and airier which seems to me like less value if you are buying air. However if the cereal seems better this way (or more to your liking) why not? 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." I think generic brand chicken is inferior to national brands. If the chicken is going to be cooked in a sauce or shredded or stewed the generics work fine. For roasted or less adorned chicken try the name brands if you can't afford the good stuff. Better yet eat less meat and really splurge on the good stuff when you do eat it. Meat is not as economical as vegetables and if you focus on eating chowhound worthy vegetables and grain the payoff is more chow-worthy meals. 11.) "Always buy orange, grapefruit or apple juice in frozen concentrate.... Juice in cartons or glass containers are up to twice as expensive, and the quality is generally no better." Drink less juice but make it real unconcentrated juice. That way for the times that you do drink it you get good juice. 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." We don't buy supermarketbrand fresh pasta unless we are feeling lazy. Dried pasta is good for some things, fresh others. 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". Don't buy name brand medium grained white rice (eg. uncle bens) But there is no comparison between rice varietals and they are not interchangeable. We keep stocked in our pantry: large burlap sack of basmati rice from an ethnic market containers filled with standard white rice, sushi rice, and occassionally purple rice or other novelties. With rice ethnic markets are generally cheaper in fact ethnic stores are a great way to save money. They frequently are the cheapest option, and have options that aren't available at supermarkets. The name brand feta cheese at the supermarket is often more expensive than any of the imported feta at middle eastern delis. "Green beans: Good grief, get the fresh ones, never buy from a can or frozen box." I agree completely Corn Oil: You know, we use vegetable oil or olive oil. Why corn oil? (just curious)" We cook with a wide range of different oils. different ones for different things. But when it comes to deep fried american food the vegetable, corn, canola thing seems like if it is cheap it will work. Cheddar Cheese blocks: There are inferior cheddar cheese blocks. store brands seem acceptable but we bought some knockoff cheddar in our poorest days that was truly vile. It was gallo brand and I believe that the gallo brothers behind the wine sued in order to prevent their other brother from marketing his cheese as such and after having tried it I understand why. scott Fri Jan 03 18:49:27 -0800 2003 1585660 0 scott duncan 1 1585667 Here's an important money saving tip Jack Weber forgot to include in "Honey, I've Shrunk the Bills" : When the waiter appears at your table and asks "Would you like some shaved truffles on that?". Just say "No!". Fri Jan 03 02:31:37 -0800 2003 1585419 0 2chez mike 2 1585668 good one...That's assuming the waiter would ever go to the table with 2 customers sharing an entree and washing it down with ice water. Fri Jan 03 02:42:47 -0800 2003 1585667 0 9lives 3 1585694 I think in that case the waiter would most likely be offering to shave Ruffles (rather than truffles) over whatever they were sharing,(perhaps a nice tuna casserole?). Fri Jan 03 09:57:27 -0800 2003 1585668 0 WLA 4 1585795 Instead of Ruffles, probably some generic brand of potato chip with ridges..over a nice can of 9lives cat food tuna..really save some $..:)..and be sure to scoop up some sugar packets, ketchup packets and extra rolls. Fri Jan 03 16:00:28 -0800 2003 1585694 0 9lives 5 1585885 "Instead of Ruffles, probably some generic brand of potato chip with ridges..over a nice can of 9lives cat food tuna..really save some $..:)..and be sure to scoop up some sugar packets, ketchup packets and extra rolls." LOL, I see that this discussion is now nearing its end. And yeah, touché, I'm getting the message. Scott Fri Jan 03 23:30:02 -0800 2003 1585795 0 bunnyr 3 1586072 If the waiter treates them differently, he or she should be fired. Fri Jan 10 10:37:40 -0800 2003 1585668 0 Debbie 1 1585889 What the heck, I might as well post a reply since everybody else seems to be doing so... 1.) "In 9 our of 10 establishments, alcoholic beverages, appetizers and desserts are overpriced. Ask for ice water with a wedge of lemon and pass on the dessert and coffee". "Overpriced"? I'd sure like to see what Weber's criteria are for determining the appropriate price of something. Besides, buying beverages, apps, or desserts when I go out lets me try things that I can't or won't make at home. 2.) "Ethnic restaurants are your best choice to generally get the best value for your money". I generally agree with this, save that some ethnic (BTW, I wonder what the definition of "ethnic" is) places try to go upscale and raise their prices. 3.) "Don't ever be afraid to share...A single entrée in many restaurants is now more than enough to satisfy two hungry eaters. Don't be shy or embarrassed to ask for an extra plate". I've never done this, but I don't have a problem with this claim. 4.) "Crowds are also a good indicator. If a place always seems busy, chances are something good is happening inside." Riiiiiight. 5.) "Waiters and waitresses work hard for their money. A standard tip is 15% of your bill, no more or less". Weber deserves to get soundly clubbed about the head and shoulders for this. I generally tip 20-25% on the total bill (post-tax). Waiting tables is one of those jobs that I did briefly in the past and would SO not want to do again, so I have no problem paying other people well to do it for me. 6.) "Buy generic canned goods. While national brands may be more uniform in size, shape and color, they taste the same and do not merit higher prices". I typically don't buy canned goods. 7.) (Same as 6, but with cold cereals in boxes.) Ditto. 8.) "Don't be fooled by brand name chicken marketing claims. Branded chicken costs more per pound, yet there are few if any differences in quality that would justify the higher price." I'll echo the statements about free-range brands. 9.) "Forget brown eggs. They are identical to white eggs in taste but are often priced higher". Yep, eggs is eggs. But it would be well worth finding a source of good fresh eggs rather than relying on standard supermarket eggs (most of which are gross). 10.) "Brand-name hot dogs are more than double the price of generics or store brands... enjoy comparable quality for a lot less money". Golly...or MAYBE you could go to your local butcher and get something that's fresh-made and higher quality. Sheesh. 11.) "Always buy orange, grapefruit or apple juice in frozen concentrate.... Juice in cartons or glass containers are up to twice as expensive, and the quality is generally no better." BWAHAHAHAHA! It's Odwalla or nothin' for me. 12.) "Dry pasta tastes as good or better than fresh pasta and costs 1/3rd less per serving. Buy the least expensive brands - experts find little difference in taste or quality." Who are these "experts"? And I think there's a big ol' difference in quality between brands of dried pasta. I like the stuff that's sold under the Coppola and the Rusticcia d'Abruzzo brand names. 13.) "Buy the cheapest brands of rice. Rice is generic". I get the sneaking suspicion that Weber hasn't ever had anything beyond bog-standard long-grain rice. And there's even differences among that. He also names the following products you should buy generically: Green beans, (Or you could go to the farmer's market, buy a bunch of good fresh beans, and freeze them yourself) Mayonnaise, (Nope. Hellman's or Best Foods.) Corn Oil, (Shrug.) Tomato Sauce, (I typically don't buy tomato sauce, so I can't comment on this.) Bologna, (I have never found decent bologna this side of the Atlantic, so it's kind of a nonissue.) Cheddar Cheese blocks, (BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I'd expect the Vermonters to rise up with torches and pitchforks at this claim, but I suppose they'd be more likely to just shrug and ignore Weber.) and Oatmeal (generic vs. Quaker) (Not an issue. Oatmeal is eeeeevil.) Sat Jan 04 05:48:49 -0800 2003 1585419 0 Karl B 2 1585891 OK, so you can afford to seek out the best, the most expensive, and...you think I should too, even if I don't have enough cash to pay my bills? That's not realistic advice. Compromises must be made. A lot of people out there who used to make a point of buying the most expensive products available no longer have that option. They need advice, and your advice won't help them. Butcher-made hot dogs cost twice as much as name brand supermarket dogs. I can feed four people dinner for what a jug of your fresh squeezed juice costs. I couldn't possibly buy fresh green beans in season and freeze them for what it costs to buy frozen. And home-frozen vegetables are still frozen vegetables. They do lose something in the processing. Free-range chicken rarely beats out kosher chicken in blind taste tests. And Ronzoni beats out lots of high priced imports. Sat Jan 04 09:06:48 -0800 2003 1585889 0 ironmom 3 1585905 And one other thing you may be avoiding along with the price of the Odwalla juice, salmonella. Sat Jan 04 12:29:20 -0800 2003 1585891 0 WLA 4 1585927 I believe Odwalla has been pasteurized for quite some time now. Perhaps someone can confirm this. Sat Jan 04 18:47:29 -0800 2003 1585905 0 Jim Dorsch 5 1586031 Yeah, it's been pasteurized since the salmonella incident a while ago. Mon Jan 06 21:40:08 -0800 2003 1585927 0 Karl B 3 1586032 (Moderators, I think this thread is starting to drift; feel free to delete this post if you wish.) Comments inline below... OK, so you can afford to seek out the best, the most expensive, [karl] Well, yes. (Okay, maybe not "the best", but "pretty darn good".) But there were some times when I was *intimately* familiar with PB&J sandwiches and ten-for-a-dollar ramen. and...you think I should too, even if I don't have enough cash to pay my bills? [karl] Er, no. If you'll re-read my previous post, I doubt you'll find any statements to that effect. And if you'll re-read the original post in the thread, you'll note that it ends with a blanket request for comments rather than a request for comments about the efficacy of Weber's suggestions. As a side note, I went to Amazon shortly after posting my original reply in the thread and looked at the sample pages from Weber's book. The sample pages of content were from his chapter on selecting furniture; it consisted of information along the lines of "When shopping for new furniture, sit down on it and make sure you can't feel individual springs poking you." Which provides an indication of the depth of information in the book; if you need to be told information like that, it's perfectly good advice--but if you have a higher level of expertise, you can see the holes in Weber's suggestions. (Okay, I won't argue that spring-poking furniture is a good thing; but Weber's suggestions to tend to be rather broad and simplistic.) That's not realistic advice. Compromises must be made. A lot of people out there who used to make a point of buying the most expensive products available no longer have that option. They need advice, and your advice won't help them. [karl] Well, sure it's not realistic advice. Which is why I didn't give it. Heck, I think the only piece of actual *advice* in my post is about clubbing Weber for being a cheap tipper. Butcher-made hot dogs cost twice as much as name brand supermarket dogs. [karl] And in my opinion, they provide a higher ROI in terms of deliciousness-per-dollar. The question at hand is what criteria one uses to evaluate Weber's suggestions. If you're concerned with pounds-of-food-per-dollar, then sure, generic hot dogs are a better value. But if you're concerned with maximizing a function in which both volume and deliciousness are factors, then, well, you may end up with a different result. And I suppose that if you *really* wanted to eat cheap, you should buy the meat in bulk (or raise and slaughter it yourself) and make your own sausage. I can feed four people dinner for what a jug of your fresh squeezed juice costs. [karl] So can I. My issue was with Weber's argument that the quality is the same between frozen concentrate and fresh-squeezed. (In all fairness, Weber does say that the quality is "generally" the same rather than always the same.) I couldn't possibly buy fresh green beans in season and freeze them for what it costs to buy frozen. [karl] Yeah, but didn't you mention at some point that you lived, like, in the wilds of the Arctic or something? If you had access to a different market, your situation might be different. (When I was growing up, my family almost never bought vegetables, because we had a big-ass garden and grew our own.) And home-frozen vegetables are still frozen vegetables. They do lose something in the processing. [karl] True, but I suspect they lose less than store-bought frozen veggies, and certainly less than canned veggies. Free-range chicken rarely beats out kosher chicken in blind taste tests. [karl] True. But are there differences in healthfulness, or the conditions in which the chickens are raised? (This of course is verging into the ethics-of-farming debates.) And Ronzoni beats out lots of high priced imports. [karl] Umm...okay. I certainly have no problem with maximizing deliciousness-per-dollar, and I'll readily admit that if I had less disposable income I'd buy cheaper pasta. But that doesn't mean that there aren't differences in quality between the (admittedly expensive) high-end pasta and the cheap pasta that Weber advocates. (Jeez, and here I thought people were gonna get on my case for my crack about oatmeal...) Mon Jan 06 22:20:34 -0800 2003 1585891 0 Karl B 4 1586033 "(Moderators, I think this thread is starting to drift; feel free to delete this post if you wish.)" Actually, I'm getting bored by the discussion - and I started the thread! Scott Mon Jan 06 22:56:33 -0800 2003 1586032 0 bunnyr