290834 Wed Nov 13 21:53:56 -0800 2002 29 34 Wine 0 1580185 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Subject: White Burgundy I am trying to remember the name of a producer who makes an estate burgundy using a grape variety other than Chardonnay. My memory fails me. As I recall there are few given this honor. Thank you for your help. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The question above was emailed by a shy hound. Linked below is a thread that talks about the grape varieties permitted in Burgundy. Three producers of white burgundy from "mutant" pinot noir mentioned are Henri Gouges, d'Arlot and Comte de Vogüe. Does anyone know of others? Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/165525#884364 Wed Nov 13 21:53:56 -0800 2002 0 Melanie Wong 1 1580191 My local grog shop catalogue lists white burgundy as a blend, with Sauvignon Blanc the largest component, followed by Semillon and Muscadelle. They sell a Ch. La Louviere Blanc Pessac for $23.99 and describe the estate as being located 6 miles south of the city of Bordeaux. Wed Nov 13 22:32:18 -0800 2002 1580185 0 emkay 2 1580196 I think you are getting your Bordeaux and Burgundy mixed up! Wed Nov 13 23:09:16 -0800 2002 1580191 0 deweyman 3 1580202 Quite right. That's what happens when you stay up late reading Chowhound posts.Further scrutiny of grog shop catalogue indicates that "all white burgundy wines are made from 100% Chardonnay grapes" Thu Nov 14 00:47:20 -0800 2002 1580196 0 emkay 4 1580217 Bourgogne Aligote Domain Michel Bouzerau sells for about ten bucks a bottle Thu Nov 14 08:43:12 -0800 2002 1580202 0 byrd 4 1580356 "all white burgundy wines are made from 100% Chardonnay grapes" And, that would be 100% wrong. (g) Thu Nov 14 20:29:43 -0800 2002 1580202 0 Melanie Wong 4 1580588 White Burgundies that are not made from Chardonnay must have the varietal listed on the label. Thus, any white Burgundy that has no varietal labeling must by law be Chardonnay - like Bourgogne Aligote, etc. This, of course, doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't people breaking the rules, as is common for all things winemaking in Burgundy. However, Chardonnay is the most noble of all these grapes, and no respectable producer would use an inferior varietal. That said, there was once a rumour that Drouhin's Beaune Clos de Mouches blanc was a Pinot Blanc wine. Never did hear the truth of the matter. I also have heard of a grape called Pinot Auxerrois(sp?), but it may be a pseudonym, and I think it was more common in Alsace. Sun Nov 17 22:54:30 -0800 2002 1580202 0 deweyman 5 2344360 In reply to the "Respectable" comment, I have to add that Aubert De Villaine, the part-owner and winemaker at Domane Romanée-Conti makes an amazing cuvée of Aligote under his own label, "DeVillaine". And to clear things up, the only grapes that are allowed, by law, to be bottled and classified as burgundy are Chardonnay, Aligoté, Pinot Noir and Gamay. Gamay within the Burgundy A.O.C. is very rare... the only example I've ever heard of in my life is Vougeraie, the producer of some great grand cru Chambertin, who offers one bottling of Gamay that grows right on the edge of Flagey-Echezeaux, directly across from the Clos de Vougeot. It is Called Vougeraie en Bollery Terres d'En Face. Terres d'En Face means something along the lines of the facing land, or the land across, or something like that. It refers to the former Chateau de Vougeot, which was directly across the street from the vineyard. Fri Mar 02 01:19:10 -0800 2007 1580588 74094 Clos Vougeot 6 2344554 >>the only grapes that are allowed, by law, to be bottled and classified as burgundy are Chardonnay, Aligoté, Pinot Noir and Gamay.<< Those are certainly the most common grapes but others are allowed. St-Bris is, by law, 100% Sauvignon Blanc. Though rare, Pinot Blanc can be included in Bourgogne Blanc and some white Mâcon. Pinot Beurot, aka Pinot Gris, is "sanctioned as an ingredient in most of Burgundy's red wine appellations and the occasional vine can still be found in some of the region's famous red wine vineyards" according to the Oxford Companion; it's also tolerated in Bourgogne Blanc, as are Melon de Bourgogne and, in the Yonne, Sacy. Also, Gamay is usually the majority grape in Bourgogne Passetoutgrains, which can also include César and Tressot in addition to the minimum 1/3 Pinot Noir. Fri Mar 02 05:56:04 -0800 2007 2344360 10520 carswell 7 2347952 Thank you, carswell, all of which is mentioned in the thread linked in my long ago original post. (g) Trying to remember whose St. Bris I had a few months ago...not that memorable I guess. Fri Mar 02 22:57:55 -0800 2007 2344554 10039 Melanie Wong 8 2348927 >>Thank you, carswell, all of which is mentioned in the thread linked in my long ago original post. (g)<< Er, right... Good enough to bear repeating? >>Trying to remember whose St. Bris I had a few months ago...not that memorable I guess.<< The two we get are from Sorin and Goisot. Both make for pleasant drinking -- I especially like the latter. Sat Mar 03 11:29:30 -0800 2007 2347952 10520 carswell 9 2349095 Certainly good enough to bear repeating! Actually what struck me is how few folks actually look at the embedded links. I look up and include them in my postings, but it seems like few make use of them. P.S. Now I remember, it was Jean Marc Brocard's St. Bris. Now I'm wondering what the implications would be of taking a wine named after a saint to a ceremonial circumcision ceremony. (g) Sat Mar 03 12:37:33 -0800 2007 2348927 10039 Melanie Wong 10 2349617 Well, CLEARLY, it's the only wine guaranteed to go well with the event itself! Sat Mar 03 16:12:35 -0800 2007 2349095 28122 zin1953 6 2344642 While it IS generally true that all red Burgundies are Pinot Noir, and all white Burgundies are Chardonnay, this is far from an absolute. *************************************** Some facts on RED Burgundies: -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Passetoutgrains" must be, under the AOC regulations, blends of Pinot Noir (minimum 1/3) and Gamay noir au jus blanc. -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Grand Ordinaire" may contain, under the AOC regulations, Pinot Noir, Gamay noir au jus blanc, César, and Tressot. -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Rouge" are often 100 percent Pinot Noir (and will be if the words "Pinot Noir" appear on the label), but may contain, under the AOC regulations, Pinot Noir, Gamay noir au jus blanc, César, and Tressot -- depending upon their origin within Burgundy. -- Some other appellations for red Burgundy -- for example, the Grand Cru appellation contrôllée Musigny -- permits up to 10 percent Chardonnay to be blended into the Pinot Noir. *************************************** Some facts on WHITE Burgundies: -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Aligoté" must be, under the AOC regulations, produced solely from the Aligoté variety. -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Grand Ordinaire" may contain, under the AOC regulations, chardonnay, Aligoté, Melon de Bourgogne (the grape responsible for Muscadet in the Loire), and Sacy, but this last variety is only permitted if the wine comes from the Yonne. -- Wines bottled under the appellation d'origine contrôllée "Bourgogne Blanc" are often 100 percent Chardonnay (and will be if the word "Chardonnay" appears on the label), but may contain, under the AOC regulations, Chardonnay, Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris. *************************************** Some other facts: Daniel Senard has long had a considerable amount of Pinot Gris in his Corton blanc. Carswell is correct about "St.-Brice" -- except that it's actually spelled St.-Bris. This region of Brugundy gained appellation contrôllée status only about five years ago, but was granted VDQS status sometime in the 1970s, IIRC. It's located in the northwestern portion of the greater Burgundy region, west of Chablis but south of Auxerre. It is, as carswell notes, pure Sauvignon Blanc. Fri Mar 02 06:39:13 -0800 2007 2344360 28122 zin1953 7 2344699 >>Carswell is correct about "St.-Brice" -- except that it's actually spelled St.-Bris.<< My recurring mental block. Have corrected it above. Aside from interferrence from the film *Brice de Nice*, the DVD issue of which has been unavoidable these days, part of my confusion has to do with the pronunciation. Francophone wine lovers of my acquaintance are split: some pronounce the *s* and others don't. Even a couple of Burgundian friends don't agree on whether the *s* is silent, though these days I tend to think it probably is. Fri Mar 02 07:00:04 -0800 2007 2344642 10520 carswell 3 1580358 dewey, can you think of any others besides Gouges and d'Arlot who have the white mutant clone of pinot noir? As an aside, I have a friend who hopes to find a white sport of zinfandel in his vineyard, so that he can make the first genuine white zin! (g) Thu Nov 14 20:32:29 -0800 2002 1580196 0 Melanie Wong 1 1580197 Some use a grape called aligote.....could this be it? Wed Nov 13 23:11:21 -0800 2002 1580185 0 djk 1 1580198 Not to be too off topic, but did I not read something many years ago, that Le Montrachet was actually from pinot blanc grapes? Wed Nov 13 23:38:54 -0800 2002 1580185 0 Bob Brooks 1 1580297 I believe the Vogüé Musigny Blanc (and now Bourgogne Blanc) are made from chardonnay grapes. However, the grapes are grown in "pinot noir" soil (it is planted in about one-third of a hectare). Thu Nov 14 15:13:12 -0800 2002 1580185 0 musigny 2 1580355 I would defer to your greater knowledge on this subject, musigny! I believe the last vintage of the Musigny Blanc was 92 or 93 before the vines were pulled, but do you know off hand the first vintage of the Bourgogne Blanc? I've only had the opportunity to try but one vintage of Musigny Blanc. That was a couple years ago and it was from the early 80s, maybe 82 or 83. It had a wonderful musky, almost white truffle aroma and great breadth on the palate, rather than the linear, pointed focus of Chardonnay, that made it more Gris or Noir like. Thu Nov 14 20:27:59 -0800 2002 1580297 0 Melanie Wong 3 1580367 Don't judge me by my moniker...I'm really a beginner at this and am trying hard to learn. I believe the last vintage of the Musigny Blanc was 1993. Thu Nov 14 21:33:16 -0800 2002 1580355 0 musigny 4 1580375 Coincidentally, a friend passing through the site saw this thread and just emailed me that Vogue's plantings might include some Pinot Blanc. The plot thickens... Thu Nov 14 22:21:53 -0800 2002 1580367 0 Melanie Wong 5 1580586 I was recently at a tasting with the commercial director of de Vogue (Voh-gway, by the way. I mispronounced it for years!), and can confirm that the white wine from the domaine is 100% Chardonnay. The Chard vines have been slowly replanted over the last quarter century, and now average about 18 years old. When the oldest plot of Chard was pulled in 1993 for replanting, they decided to declassify it as a Grand Cru, and bottle it simply as Bourgogne Blanc. All of the vines are in the Musigny AOC, and thus could be called Grand Cru Musigny (Interestinly no differentiation by law between Chard and Pinot in Musigny because the white is so rare). But de Vogue regularly declassifies fruit to make their Grand Crus more amazing. Their Chambolle-Musigny Premiere Cru red actually comes entirely from the Musigny Grand Cru as well, but from the younger wines in the vineyard. We should see the return of the Musigny blanc when the vines average 25yrs - alas, not for another 7-9 years. By the way, the Domaine's 200 vintage wines are spectacular, if expensive. The village Chambolle-Musigny red is drinking amazingly right now, but the Bourgogne Blanc needs a year or two to shed the new oak and open up. Sun Nov 17 22:42:37 -0800 2002 1580375 0 deweyman 6 1580905 dewey,thanks for the confirming word on Vogüe's plantings. I checked Oxford Companion's listing for Nuits-St-Georges looking for info on Gouges and l'Arlot's plantings, and it says that l'Arlot is Chardonnay (which is different than the importer and retailer told me) and that Gouges is Pinot Blanc. Tue Nov 19 22:35:40 -0800 2002 1580586 0 Melanie Wong 6 2234474 deweyman...would you happen to know where I could get my hands on a bottle of Musigny Blanc Grand Cru? I've been searching for quite some time -- veritably impossible to find... Sat Jan 27 21:27:46 -0800 2007 1580586 69718 ma9e11an 1 1580310 According to a Wine Spectator article on White Burgandy (www.winespectator.com/Wine/Archives/Show_Article/0,1275,3660,00.html), a domaine named Bruno Clair, which uses Pinot Blanc in their blend, a grape that has "all but disappeared from Burgandy." Another web page which has information about the grapes used in Burgandy can be found at: http://www.weimax.com/white_burgundy.htm Does this help? Thu Nov 14 15:54:52 -0800 2002 1580185 0 asun 2 1580354 Ah, yes, Bruno Clair, thank you. Beautiful wines. Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc are still blended into the Chardonnay by a few Marsannay producers, and I tasted one that was 100% PG, I think, when I was in Fixin. The Weimax site missed a couple white varieties that we iterated in the earlier thread I linked to, but the info is handy to have in one place. Have you shopped at Weimax? Thu Nov 14 20:19:48 -0800 2002 1580310 0 Melanie Wong 3 2235894 The Weimax website looks like someone spends incredible amounts of time writing for it. I did have a personal experience there that was very unpleasant but that shouldn't deter anyone from trying it. It's a traditional looking place with a definite older Bay Area feel, and lots of pretty harder-to-find wines. I stopped by, about two years ago, when I was researching my plan to open a wine shop. When I told them what I wanted to talk about, even though the shop would have been 300 miles away, they pretty much walked away and left me talking to myself. In hindsight, I think that the internet component of today's retail wine business makes anyone, anywhere a competitor in ways that I didn't comprehend then. Sun Jan 28 14:17:22 -0800 2007 1580354 11405 Midlife 1 1580736 Melany--I dont' know if someone already replied to this; but the other white grape of Burgundy is Aligote. Aubert de Villaine (DRC, etc.) used to make a pretty good one that he barrel fermented , I believe. There are plenty of others too....it's a nice grape, soft, round and melon-like. Oh yeah, the other "other" white grape of Burgundy is Sauvignon Blanc, which is "legal" in two towns up north...One of 'em is St. Bris. The most famous producer there is Goisot or Goiset (I believe). Very good juice.....Better than a whole lot of underripe Chardonnay back there in France...... Cheers! Jeff Morgan Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811832139/chowhoundcomA Mon Nov 18 23:47:26 -0800 2002 1580185 0 Jeff Morgan 2 1580904 Hey Jeff, good to have you in residence this week! Actually, we've iterated all the red and white varieties permitted in Burgundy in the various replies and links. I haven't had de Villaine's Aligote Bouzeron for a while, but if it is barrel fermented, then yes, it would be soft and roundish. It's important to clarify that the Aligote from Bouzeron is from a unique clonal selection and has its own AOC. The grape from that terroir has much more character and body due to the clone and the permitted yields in the Aligote Bouzeron AOC are much smaller. In the last year, I tried one that Esquin Imports brings in that was a pleasant sipper as well. Typical Aligote, not from Bouzeron, is anything but soft and roundish. Acidic, lean and mean would be more like it. A dollop of cassis for kir is recommended to make it something you'd want to drink instead of just using it wash your lunch down. (g) Tue Nov 19 22:31:14 -0800 2002 1580736 0 Melanie Wong