290594 Sat Oct 19 01:13:46 -0700 2002 11 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1577938 The subject line is taken from the Melissa Clark article in the New York Times a few years ago. The link is below; I believe it should be free to access (with registration). This is born of a thread on the LA Board about "secret" added ingredients that developed out of discussion about The Water Grill. It seemed worthy of a larger conversation. The basic idea is that chefs routinely use added fats in composing dishes that are nowhere mentioned in the menu description, where they eschew "poached in goose fat" for the more palatable "lightly poached", which not so curiously encourages people to order such enticingly tasty "light" dishes. Props to my peep M.C. for encouraging further discussion! Link: http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9405EEDD143DF93BA15757C0A96F958260 Sat Oct 19 01:13:46 -0700 2002 0 Fidelixi 1 1577939 I recall that story; it was an eye-opener. Then again, if you've ever sat close to the action in a restaurant with an open kitchen, you won't be surprised. I've eaten at places where almost every dish got a generous hit of olive oil on the way to the dining room. Perhaps not the worst fat to have on your plate (or coursing through your bloodstream), but you're probably eating more of it than you thought. The more troublesome practice, for people who don't eat poultry or red meat, is the use of poultry fats or lard in seafood or vegetable dishes. You make a good point: Diner beware. Sat Oct 19 01:43:34 -0700 2002 1577938 0 squid-kun 2 1577966 I was aware of a lot of hidden fats but I wasn't aware of lard in seafood dishes. Is lard tasteless and just act as a flavor enhancer in these scenarios? Wouldn't you notice the taste on the seafood? What have you seen? It seems like a lawsuit would be waiting to happen if a vegetarian wasn't fully informed of animal fats in a vegetable dish. Or is it only misleading if it's labeled as vegetarian. Thanks, I think, for opening my eyes to how wrong I am when I think I'm being virtuous by ordering the fish fillet I still might be getting socked with shmaltz. Frank Sun Oct 20 01:01:46 -0700 2002 1577939 0 iron frank 3 1577978 I'm no lawyer, but it would seem that as long as the menu did not specifically state that a dish is vegetarian there would be no liability for included animal fats. No menu ever lists all ingredients in a dish, nor should it. If one is on a special diet one should never assume anything and should always ask whether the prohibitied item(s) are in the dish. Sun Oct 20 09:56:49 -0700 2002 1577966 0 Deven Black 1 1577959 I'm certainly aware of the issue; many restaurant chefs make up for a lack of talent with excess fat and salt. And besides, in a restaurant kitchen, it's a lot easier to cook quickly if you are using excessive quantities of fat. I have actually become negative on most high-end restaurants these days. First there is the fat issue - and while I'm certainly not a fat nazi at all, I think food gets ruined with too much of it - how many pizzas have I had that have been destroyed with 1/4 cup of virgin olive oil drizzled on; or this strange idea chefs have these days that flavored oils improve a soup (which never emuslify, and sit there in unappetizing driblets on top). How many times have I had french fries fried for the third or fourth time? Or meat that has been quickly cooked in the fryolater (thanks Anthony Bourdain for pointing that one out). But second, there is the profound lack of creativity that infects most high-end restaurants these days. In short, all of the menus are exactly the same. The dessert menu is the worst offender: I guarantee you there will be a creme brulee and some sort of flourless chocolate cake, it has been that way for five years. As far as I can tell, there are virtually no good restaurants that make real cakes, viz. light cakes with flour. Why not? Is it just going too far out on a limb to make an actual cake. Third there is the institutional cooking style that lends itself to basically one dish: the quick, fatty saute in a very hot pan, possibly finished in the oven. I don't really know exactly how kitchens are structured in the US versus in Europe, but I suspect there must be a different methodology, because I find that the variety of preparations, and often their relative freshness, can be much higher there. The bottom line is that I am cooking more and more at home, and loving it. No one will ever care more about the food you eat than you do. When I find a restaurant where I feel that the owner really cares, where they have a unique sense of taste and style and they are feeding me with the type of attention I would use at home, I treasure the discovery. It's rare. Sat Oct 19 22:03:13 -0700 2002 1577938 0 Dylan Yolles 2 1577968 Hear, hear! Great, impassioned and appropriately angry post -- it is, I think, very frustrating being a chowhound and trying to reconcile that with the fact that the majority of excursions out to the temples of dining -- high or low -- are, on the whole, disappointing and more often than not for simple lack of effort. My only guess is that it's not financially sound to produce the kind of interesting, regional, seasonal and inspired fare that pleases my palate at least. Although, I did have a few, memorable meals in that category on my recent honeymoon in Provence. For us the memorable place, to which we returned for our final meal of the trip, was a tiny restaurant in Gigondas where the entire staff -- kitchen and room -- was a husband and his wife (!). I like you am retreating, happily for the most part, to my own kitchen although I do sometimes -- like tonight for instance -- crave sitting alone at the bar of an inspired kitchen (such was my lot this evening) and sampling dishes that wow, impress and occasionally amaze me. Maybe it's just part of growing older; things are interesting when you're younger and have little experience to compare but once you build a backlog it's harder to pierce the veil of the familiar, with food, with movies, etc. Sun Oct 20 01:42:02 -0700 2002 1577959 0 Fidelixi 3 1578009 I couldn't agree with you more. As the years go by, the food I look forward to most is that cooked by my many talented friends, or chez moi--and I even know how to make cake. Tonight I'm making Shrimp satay with various sauces, Thai fried rice and sweet and sour cabbage for my family. Sun Oct 20 17:49:28 -0700 2002 1577968 0 JoanB 4 1578029 Amen to all of these comments! I hardly find the fact that restaurants use loads of fat a secret. All you have to do is use your taste buds and it becomes apparent to the palate. Occasionally I like eating out and enjoying some of the richness, but more often than not, I would rather prepare my own. And I totally agree with the poster who expressed ennui (!) with the one menu that is available across the country. I can't stand the omnipresent "molten chocolate cake." Perhaps when done well it is a wonderful thing, and I imagine the first restaurant to do it probably had a good thing going. But to me, it tastes like the cake was cooked at too high a temperature for too short a time, and is raw in the middle. All in all, I would almost always rather cook it in my own home. For example, there are only a couple of pizzas local to me that I enjoy as much as the pizza I make in my apartment. I (and my husband!) think my Indian dals are delicious, and I probably use about 1/10th of the oil of your average Indian restaurant. I'm not a fat nut either, but I would rather eat healthy and be able to enjoy eating for longer! Smokey Mon Oct 21 09:51:50 -0700 2002 1578009 0 Smokey 3 1578089 any places you would like to talk about where you like the cooking and that you feel the method of cooking suits your preference? I mean, any truly memorable places in Manhattan? thanks! I agree about the use of fats- sooo many Italian chefs add huge amounts of butter to their red sauces and when I make mine at home, I let it simmer for a few hours with lots of herbs, red wine, garlic, sometimes with meat sometimes with carrots Mon Oct 21 17:27:24 -0700 2002 1577968 0 Le Bouquin 1 1578013 I recently wrote a little tidbit about this. I think it comes down to the fact that cooking isn't, at its essence, about heat. It's about hydration, and the application of heat is simply one way to regulate hydration levels. The application of fat is a way to enable more heat without dehydration. Link: http://www.someoftheanswers.com/dynamic/qa.html?id=19 Sun Oct 20 18:13:41 -0700 2002 1577938 0 Caviar 1 1578021 It doesn't bother me that restaurants use extra fat for flavoring, but it does bother me that they will lie to customers when asked. Check this quote from the NY Times article: "Similarly, the manager of a popular French restaurant in Manhattan confided: ''People ask us all the time why our seared fish tastes so much better than the fish they make at home. I tell them it's because we can get the pan so much hotter than they can, but the real reason is because we cook it with heaps of butter.'' " Sun Oct 20 23:07:44 -0700 2002 1577938 0 Scooter Pie 1 1578226 I have to say, I was a somewhat disappointed after reading the subject heading of this thread that we weren't discussing Rich Little, one of our great comic treasures. A few weeks ago at Bouley in Manhattan, I was served a mini fruit tart as part of a plate of petit fours. My date and I both swore that we tasted the unmistakable flavor of DUCK FAT! It was actually quite nice (I like savory surprises in my desserts). But I when I asked the waiter if the item contained any duck fat, he flatly denied that it contained any animal fat. Hmm. Link: http://meglioranza.com Tue Oct 22 19:55:58 -0700 2002 1577938 0 Tom Meg