29046 Wed Apr 28 17:29:56 -0700 2004 22 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 122224 Last night, almost 20 hounds descended on Toronado on Haight Street to take advantage of both the pub's annual Belgian Beer Month and the proximity of four Indian restaurants for an extravaganza of food and drink. Seasoned beer afficionados, Jesse and nja, led us through a series of 3 beer flights (containing about 4 different beers per flight) in a progression from the lighter, drier beers such as Orval and Hoegarrden, and progressing through to the richly flavored triple-style beers. I will let others do a more in-depth commentary on the many beers we sampled. As for me, I particularly enjoyed the DeKonnick Winter Cuvee, the Hoegaarden as a lighter summer refresher, and the Orval. We ordered a variety of dishes from four nearby Indian spots: Raja, Naan n' Chutney, Indian Oven, and Rotee -- and brought them in for a great smorgasbord to accompany our beer. Below are the items we ordered from Naan n' Chutney, and some quick impressions from me. Everybody, please chime in with comments and the ordered items from the other places. Naan n' Chutney - Seekh Kabob: Terribly dry, and lacking in the requisite outer charred parts. It fared poorly when compared to the seekh kabobs from other places. - Bhindi Ghosht: Okra cooked with lamb in blend of spices --- I enjoyed this one, maybe because I love okra. - Karahi Ghosht: Stir-fried lamb cooked with special spices - Palak Paneer: Spinach cooked w/Pakistani cheese --- very spicy for palak paneer, in a good way, IMHO. - Chana Masala: Pretty unremarkable. Seemed a little mushy to me. - Fish Curry: Nice and subtle flavors, but not enough fish. - Lamb Biryani: Unremarkable - Tandoori Lamb Chops - Achar Gosht - Garlic Naan All in all, it was a great evening and very educational. Toronado Pub was very gracious in reserving the side room for our motley crew and tolerating the Indian aromas wafting out of the room. Thanks for a fun night! Wed Apr 28 17:29:56 -0700 2004 0 beanbag 1 122233 Yes, it was really a great time, and special thanks to Melanie and Jen for their work in organizing it, and to Jessie, who really came up with a great series of flights of Belgiums! My job was easy: just had to help Nick and Jesse narrow down the beer list to a semi-reasonable offering, and then carry the orders from the bar. What I really appreciated was how the food kept just showing up in waves, as if by magic! My notes get harder to read as the evening progressed :-), but I will add a few random thoughts: In the first 'light' flight, Orval was wonderful (as it should be, given its relatively high price). I wasn't that fond of the Hoogarthen (spelling?) I also enjoyed the Saison du Pont, a 'farmhouse beer" (to quote Jesse) in a classical style, not too high in alcohol. Good food beer, IMO. The Petrus Special was similar to the Saison, though perhaps a little maltier and yet a little less complex. My second favorite to the Orval was the St. Femillon, which is an ale, 8%alcohol, made by a commercial brewery in the 'Abby' style. Jesse says it has only been available in the US for about a year. really tasty. Some people didn't like the Kwak (in the third flight), though hubby said it had that 'yeasty, esterly quality and flavor he associates with a Belgian (hubby is also quoting Jesse here, I think, though he was able to explain to me what an ester is, pretty good at remembering his high school organic chemisty :-)). We got one draft of the Kriek Cantillon. Jesse warned that it was extremely sour (if fruity, as the name implies it is made with cherries), and most folks did not like it. Which was fine with me, I think I drank most of it. It was no more sour than grapefruit juice, which it reminded me of a little. Ok, that's about all the sense I can make of my beer notes. As for the food: my favorites were from the first round of offerings from Raj. I remember thinking part way through that first plate that I should pace myself, but after tasting food from the other places I wasn't sure I needed to bother. Perhaps I was just very hungry at first. That said, the Seekh Kabob was the best we tried(from Raj). A surprise for me was the Raj Indian Pizza. I have never particularly been fond of pizza, so I have resisted Indian Pizza as well, even though we live three blocks from Zante's and everynow and then hubby tries to persuade me to go. However, I really liked the Raj Indian Pizza! Spinach instead of tomato sauce, and just a touch of spice. Will now have to try Zante's, which someone last night said is owned by the same folks. The Palak Peneer that Melanie mentions was very spicy, but I thought it was bland none the less. Fried Calamari (here I lost my notes on which restaurant) was soggy. I thought the Tandoori Lamb chops were pretty good. When we got home, hubby sighed, collapsed into bed, and moaned that he just can't keep up with the Chowhounds! (this was his first exposure :-)). Anyway, had a lot of fun meeting some of the Chowhounds,and eating and drinking. I also appreciate the opportunity to get to know places to eat and especially such a great bar as Toronado, in an area of town I am not often in. Such a great place. I will be back to sample more of their brews, probably soon! Thanks again, Chowhounds. Wed Apr 28 18:48:10 -0700 2004 122224 0 susancinsf 2 122247 oops...just realized that the name of the restaurant I liked the food from best is Raja, at 500 Haight Street. oh well, as I said, my notes were scattered, and I don't get to that part of town that often. However, when I went on their website to check their address, I noticed they actually deliver to my zip code. Might have to try that sometime... Wed Apr 28 20:21:00 -0700 2004 122233 0 susancinsf 3 122249 gee, I wish I'd been able to come.... My hairdresser swears by Zante's. Everytime I go visit you in SF she asks me "Did you go to Zante's?" I've never been there, of course, but you could talk me into it that Friday night I'm down in May (unless you want to go more upscale...)....I'm not a big pizza person, and I have a REALLY bad memory of Indian Pizza from when I was in Gujarat...but, like I said, you could talk me into it. Especially if there is spinach on the pizza. Of course, my condition will be that we go to Mitchell's afterwards...:) Wed Apr 28 20:57:12 -0700 2004 122247 0 janet of Reno 4 122318 Zante's is great. I've had the vegetarian and the tandoori chicken pizza there, and they both were fantastic - incredibly full-flavored! Very smoky, I thought. And thick with toppings. Crust is good - not really thin, not really thick. And I didn't really find the cheese ersatz. But then, I adore paneer. Thu Apr 29 13:46:48 -0700 2004 122249 0 Alexandra 5 122373 Paneer, like the cubes that come in palak paneer, might have been nice. But this was a layer of cheap mozzarella. Based on what you described (smoky and not too thick/thin), Zante's sounds better than Raja. -Nick Thu Apr 29 20:04:48 -0700 2004 122318 0 nja 1 122252 BEER Suggesting that my knowledge of beer is anywhere close to Jesse's would be an insult to Jesse. He made all the decisions and told us about the beers. Most of the info below I picked up either from Jesse during the event or subsequent reading. Here's the list of beers. I'm providing numbers that correspond to the beer number on ratebeer.com's website. If you'd like to read more info on a beer, copy the following url to your browser, then add the number to the end. http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/Beer/Beer-Ratings.asp?BeerID= For example, to find Hoegaarden White, add 399 to the end like this: http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/Beer/Beer-Ratings.asp?BeerID=399 So, without further ado... Flight 1 Hoegaarden Wit (399) - Brouwerij Hoegaarden (Interbrew) Saison Dupont (5386) - Brasserie Dupont Petrus Speciale (6772) - Bavik-De Brabandere Orval (835) - Brasserie d'Orval Flight 2 St Feuillien Cuvée de Noël (2407) - Brasserie St-Feuillien / Friart Maredsous 8 (2526) - Brouwerij Moortgat Grotten Bruin, a.k.a. Celis Grotten Bruin (9805) - Brouwerij St. Bernardus De Koninck Cuvee (3910) - Brouwerij De Koninck Flight 3 Pauwel Kwak (3658) - Brouwerij Bosteels Chimay Cinq Cents, a.k.a. Chimay White, (52) - Bières de Chimay Maredsous 10 (2527) - Brouwerij Moortgat Poperings Hommelbier (5092) - Brouwerij Van Eecke Bonus Beer Cantillon Kriek (6013) - Brasserie Cantillon My favorites from flight 1 were the Saison Dupont (new to me), and the Orval (an all time favorite). The Hoegaarten wasn't bad, but I guess I have a preference for bigger bodied, German Hefeweizen-like wheat beers because the light body of this beer didn't appeal to me. The flat, somewhat tiresome Petrus was my least favorite beer of the night. The De Koninck Cuvee was my favorite of flight 2, and I also enjoyed the interesting Grotten and well rounded Maredsous. The St. Feuillien was a little too raisiny for me. The Kwak was an enjoyable, sweet beer when it was chilled, but after coming to room temp it became unpleasantly cloying. The other three beers were all excellent. The Popperings was uniquely interesting, like cross between a strong tripel and citrusy wheat beer. The Maredsous 10 was again a very good all around beer, while the Chimay White, a beer I haven't cared greatly for before, showed really well when put in the proper context. The Cantillon Kriek, well, is interesting. Far more sour and sweet than other fruit lambic's I've had (e.g., Lindeman's), this tasted to me like unsweetened cranberry juice. I could drink no more than a sip on its own, but I could see how with the right food it may be nice. Gotta run now. I'll post on the food later. -Nick Wed Apr 28 21:09:06 -0700 2004 122224 0 nja 2 122842 I happened upon Hoegaarden in bottles the other day so I decided to give it another try. I like it better out of the bottle. On tap at Toronado, the beer came out a clear yellow with a small white head. The bottle has a lot more residual yeast resulting in a very cloudy beer with a bit more body. On the bottle itself are instructions for how to serve: gently pour 2/3 of the beer into a glass, then swirl the bottle to mobilize the yeast and then quickly pour the remaining 1/3 into the glass to add the yeast and form a thick head. Very enjoyable. I think that on tap, all that yeasty goodness settles to the bottom. On sale for $8.25 a six pack at Rainbow in SF... rather expensive so like most Belgian beers it'll be an infrequent treat. -Nick Link: http://www.interbrew.com/content/brands/hoegaarden.html Tue May 04 15:12:38 -0700 2004 122252 0 nja 1 122271 What a great evening. It was a feast with about a dozen Belgiums--beers, that is. Thanks to the organizing team for one of the most ambitious and most successful events. I would say we all earned our stripes last night. Good chowing with you all! I along with the help of "nja" helped narrow the choices at Raja. Here's what we had in Round #1 of eating. My notes written in the dark and after a beer are less than reliable so feel free to correct and add to the mix. RAJA/500 Haight Street @ Fillmore Tandoori Pizza India Style Pizza described as "sauce, spinach, eggplant, green onion, cilantro, garlic, tandorr chicken, prawns, cauliflower and domestic lamb." ($17.00 for a 16" pie) Seekh Kabab ($9.95) Chicken Tikka Masala ($11.95) Lamb Pasanda ($10.95) "Raja special Hyderrabadi dish prepared with our own blend of spices, gournd almonds, and cashews." says the very beer and curry-stained menu I salvaged from the evening. Many of us expected something well not so pizza-like. There was a bit of cheese on this pizza which was a surprise as it wasn't detailed on the menu. The flavors were well balanced and the spinach component of the pizza was a hit with the group. Some thought it 'okay' but wouldn't go out of the way for. The crust was soft and chewy and due to all the ingredients it was not easy to handle with one hand. The sheekh kabab was delicious--spicy with a great consistency--"moist" said some hounds along with comments that it "had great flavor all around." I would say by independent Belgium poll the Lamb Pasanda was a mixed hit--did it wow anyone? Thu Apr 29 00:47:45 -0700 2004 122224 0 ciaogina 2 122290 I think Raja's Seekh Kabob was the hit of the evening, at least for Jesse and me. I definitely want to stop in there and check out some of their other tandoori items to see if they are as moist and flavorful. Thu Apr 29 09:11:32 -0700 2004 122271 0 Joan Kureczka 3 123475 My gf & I enjoyed a mixed tandoori dish (~$15.00) the one time we visited Raja - I would happily return. The naan was above average to boot. Rgds, _Adam Tue May 11 04:11:03 -0700 2004 122290 0 Adam Paul 4 123482 I visited once to see what the buzz was about. Long waits, high prices, good but not tremendous food mean that I won't be visiting too often. People in Berkeley don't seem to mind queues and lines. I could make a political comment about this, but I think I won't. Tue May 11 12:22:45 -0700 2004 123475 0 Paul H 5 123491 ? are you sure you have the right place in mind? Raja is NOT in Berkeley, it is at 500 Haight Street in SF. So what does that have to do with Berkeley people? Tue May 11 13:43:48 -0700 2004 123482 0 susancinsf 6 123498 Don't sweat it. Likewise, I could make a statement about consumers with atrophied taste buds that need every bit of food and wine to yell wham-bam-boom in order to have any affect on their stone palates, but I won't. Tue May 11 15:06:59 -0700 2004 123491 0 Melanie Wong 5 123540 We must not be talking about the same place then, as the discussion was of Raja in SF's Lower Haight district, which, on my visit, had none of the following things: buzz, a wait of any sort, high prices, "not tremendous food", or a Berkeley zipcode. Rgds, _Adam Wed May 12 22:33:33 -0700 2004 123482 0 Adam Paul 2 122317 As Jen said, one needs to take into account that all of the food was takeout, so it'll differ to some extent than what you can get in the restaurant. But with that in mind, I'd say that most of the food was below average compared to our other curry dives. But a few dishes did stand out: The pizza was interesting but not what I was expecting. I imagined naan topped with Indian ingredients and reheated. Instead this was typical pizza dough (especially thick and spongy even) topped with a wealth of toppings. The spinach sauce was definitely the best part, and the low quality cheese should just not have been present at all. If I were to try Raja's or Zante's again, I'd ask them to make the pizza thinner, cook it well done so it gets crunchier, and leave the cheese off. The seekh kabob from Raja was my favorite dish. It lacked the crispy charred crust, but was otherwise moist and flavorful. The others were either far too tough or had a strange, funky, old meat taste (the one that was bias cut). I really liked the sauce that came with the calamari curry (not the fried one). Don't remember where it was from. It was the spiciest dish of the night and had a nice citrus tang. The calamari were tough little rubber bands, but I'd be interested in trying another meat with that sauce. Where was it from? I thought all the naans were good quality. They were of course softened by being wrapped in foil before arriving, but they all seemed to have started off as good bread. Thanks again to all the work of the organizers. -Nick Thu Apr 29 13:45:20 -0700 2004 122271 0 nja 3 122943 I actually liked the oozy, gooey cheese on the pizza. There was so much stuff piled on it, the cheese added to the over-the-topness of it all. But yes, the crust was too limp. I actively disliked both the chicken tikka masala and the lamb pasand. Both tasted predominantly of cream, not in a good way. The chunk of lamb I got had kind of a rancid taste as if it had been pre-cooked long ago and held in the fridge. The seekh kebab was the best of the lot. The desserts were from Raja too. The kheer was the light style, not my fave. Can't remember which nut kulfi was ordered but it was fairly bland. The mango ice cream was the best of the three. Wed May 05 03:12:15 -0700 2004 122317 0 Melanie Wong 1 122312 This was a fun event. It was really great to try food from 4 different restaurants all in one hit, instead of having full meals at each. While I am sure some of the quality suffered from the take out (most of the breads were pretty bad by the time we got to them), I think we all got a good idea of the restaurants. The restaurant I am probably most interested in returning to is Raja. The tastes were interesting. The seekh kabob was decent, if not a little soft. I enjoyed the pizza and am interested in trying other Indian pizzas (Zante Curry Dive, anyone?). Jason mentioned that the cheese on the pizza "freaked him out" -- and that it seemed like it didn't belong there. Probably my favorite all-around dish of the evening was the calimari pakora from Indian Oven. This is a fried calamari, Indian style, with great spices. I would like to have this fresh from the stove @ Indian Oven -- I bet the batter would have been even better. I don't care tend to like biryani, and neither the lamb biryani (Raja) nor the veggie biryani (Rotee) changed my mind in this respect. By the way, when we were trying to figure out costs and such, I did a price comparison of the four restaurants. Took a random sampling of food available at all four, and added it up to see what the cost comparison was. The items were: Chicken Tikka, Baigan Bharta, Daal Gosht, 1 rice, 1 Lamb Biryani, and 2 plain naan. Not super scientific because they are different sizes, etc., but interesting nonetheless. Here's how they fared: Indian Oven: $52.30 Rotee: $25.47 Raja: $47.20 Naan N Chutney: $26.95 As you can see, the price range of these restaurants is all over the map. The Rotee and Raja menus are available online at http://www.roteesf.com http://www.rajasf.com Thu Apr 29 13:29:31 -0700 2004 122224 0 jen maiser 1 122314 Here's the address information and full name of the restaurants we tried: Rotee 400 Haight Street (Webster) 415.552.8309 http://www.roteesf.com Naan N Chutney 525 Haight Street (Fillmore) 415.255.1626 Raja 500 Haight Street (Fillmore) 415.255.6000 http://www.rajasf.com Indian Oven 237 Fillmore Street (Haight) 415.626.1628 The event was at the Toronado 547 Haight Street (Fillmore) 415.863.2276 http://www.toronado.com/ Thu Apr 29 13:33:56 -0700 2004 122224 0 jen maiser 1 122469 12 Belgian Beers later....It was my job to order and fetch food from Rotee, 400 Haight, 415 552 8309, www.roteesf.com. The items were: chicken kofta, lamb karhai, Bollywood bhuna gosht, lamb seekh kebab, tandoori lamb chops, vegetable biryani, and plain nan. The Rotee food was the last food flight. I thought that pizza was from Domino's....so I didn't try it. I am embarassed to say that much of the food tasted about the same, i.e. generic indian. The beers were an eye opener, bur I'm not yet ready to give up on my Heineken. I had a great time, thank you to the organizer/coordinators. Looking forward to next c.d. , michael Fri Apr 30 14:10:00 -0700 2004 122224 0 charcot 2 122942 I didn't get to try all the dishes from Rotee, but generally liked the food and would be interested in sampling more and eating on site. The sauce on the chicken kofta (missed getting one of the meatballs) was my favorite flavor of the evening. The lamb used in the bhuna gosht was lean, tender and flavorful with complex seasonings. I liked the vegetable biryani. A different style than the Tandoorloin's Naan 'n' Curry which carmelizes the onions and veggies for flavor and is heavy on the oil, instead this one had more kinds of fresh veggies and lets their own natural taste shine through with little grease. I loved the bit of fresh mint aromatics mingled in the mix and the loose and fluffy rice. And, the tandoori chicken leg was moist and not overcooked with a mild spicing. Wed May 05 03:11:46 -0700 2004 122469 0 Melanie Wong 1 122657 Kudos to our hostesses, Melanie “beanbag”, Jen Maiser and Joan Kureczka for dreaming up this mega-tasting and making it happen!!! A special note of appreciation goes out to the absent Angie too for liaising with Toronado. We had a wonderful time due to all your efforts and superb planning – many thanks. Our first half hour at Toronado was devoted to splitting the group into five teams, one for each restaurant and a beer team and tasking them with coming up with the best sampling of the offerings. Each scrutinized their respective menus to take their best shot for our group order – the intense concentration in the room was palpable, especially with the beer team huddled around Jesse designing their tasting flights. Meanwhile Mel and Jen collected the cash kitty, counted the loot and quickly calculated final budgets for each team based on Jen’s forecast of relative cost. Perched on their bench guarding the piles of money, they doled it out like the paymasters of old. Wish we had remembered to requisition accountants’ shades for them from wardrobe to complete the picture. Instead of spending all the bucks in a single order, Nick made a great suggestion for the food teams to order a single of the various dishes for a first order. While it would not be enough to go around completely, we could assess and then re-order favorites. This worked out beautifully, and the chowies showed their skill in splitting one serving nearly 20 ways for a more diverse tasting. Also we ended up spending $10 less per person than the initial estimate and still being able to collect a $65 Goodwill contribution to the site. I was assigned the Indian Oven team and a budget of $95. This was the most expensive of the four places and we knew that wouldn’t go far. Luckily the “Belle of the Lower Haight”, Rochelle “Pssst” McCune, popped in and I was able to pick her brain for an ordering strategy for Indian Oven before she had to move on. We placed the order at 6:55pm, and asked the restaurant to call me when it was ready. By this point, Ed had wandered in for a brief visit. Knowing me to be a beer lightweight, he had gallantly volunteered to assist in finishing off my portions of the beer sampler. At 7:50pm, Indian Oven called us. I handed Ed my slice of Raja’s Indian pizza, minus the one bite I tasted, and asked him to help me fetch our food from around the corner. The uber-chowhoundish vision of him standing in Indian Oven eating Raja’s pizza out of one hand and clutching a bag packed with take-out curry in the other is one image that I sorely wish I could have preserved for posterity. From Indian Oven we tried: Bombay Pakora, $7.95 (x 2 orders) – fried calamari coated with a lightly spiced and delicate chickpea batter. I suspect our order had sat for a while before we got the call, as I opened this box immediately and it was already soggy. Too bad, as it had real potential. Offered with tamarind dipping sauce. Seekh Kebab, $12.95 (x 2 orders) – made with minced leg of lamb, a quality cut, but there was a strange fermented off taste in some bites, served with slivers of onion and green and red peppers. Calamari Curry, $10.95 – I’d ordered this one extra hot and it was the hottest dish among the buffet. Yet, to me there was kind of a gap or a hollow between where the delicious sauce’s inherent spicing stopped and the intensity of the heat. I might have enjoyed it more a little less spicy or else more strongly seasoned on all fronts. Too bad it sat too long steaming in the styro until the squid turned into rubber bands. Pulao, $2.50 – steamed basmati with bits of peas and other veggies. This was the best rice on the table with fluffy separate grain and enough but not too much oil. Surprising since it had to hold for a while before there was room on the table for it to be served. Naan, $1.50 – served dry, didn’t try this. Chapati, $1.50 – made from whole wheat flour and unleavened, these were tender, not dried out, and had a nice nutty flavor, some of the best roti we’ve had in the series. Total for the above was $65. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23287#88156 Sun May 02 23:15:35 -0700 2004 122224 0 Melanie Wong 1 122944 The bhindi ghosht was my favorite of the offerings from Naan n' Chutney. The fresh okra was actually a bit on the crunchy side. I liked the seasonings of the karahi ghosht but missed getting any of the lamb meat. The seekh kebab was leathery and tough - unlike the others, it was beef and not lamb and too dried out. Also, the tandoori lamb chops were weird - tough and covered with a thick powdery coating. Wed May 05 03:12:39 -0700 2004 122224 0 Melanie Wong