290435 Tue Oct 01 17:40:33 -0700 2002 32 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1576410 In a discussion on the SF board, there was a mention of instructing a chowchild in Chinese table manners. A few of the adults would be interested in meal time etiquette lessons as well. Any information about the rules of Chinese eating would be welcome. Tue Oct 01 17:40:33 -0700 2002 0 Stanley Stephan 1 1576411 Okay, and I'll start with the first stupid question :) I know it is correct to use the wrong end of the chopsticks to take food from serving platters...What do you do with the yucky ends then??? Is it proper etiquette to wipe them on your napkin?? Ya know, all that black bean sauce, etc... Tue Oct 01 17:57:35 -0700 2002 1576410 0 galleygirl 2 1576415 That's a good question, GG! Usually,the chopsticks are long enough so that you can hold them in the middle when using the 'wrong' end, thus avoiding being schmeared by the 'yucky' end. You're meant to use only the tips to pick up your food, so the yucky stuff shouldn't reach all the way up the 'stick. I don't know whether wiping them on your napkin would constitute a social soleicism. What I do know is that never, ever, stick your chopsticks (vertically) into your water glass when clearing the table. I did that once when I was 15 and visiting my cousins in a small town in Malaysia, and the collective gasp of horror from my assembled relatives is seared into my brain forever. I'm Chinese but my parents weren't traditional which is why it took me 15 yrs to find out that was a no-no! (supposed to bring bad luck) Tue Oct 01 18:55:04 -0700 2002 1576411 0 ju 3 1576419 The "bad luck" comes from the fact that it resembles a certain part of a funeral ceremony. But if you are really interested in more details about this tidbit and others, there have got to be books out there written on the subject... considering the volumes that have been written for businesspeople and "serious" tourists or other visitors to these countries. It would take the length of a small book to begin to explain the differences, maybe you will get responses here like, "it's expected you will slurp" and "pick up your rice bowl" which are accurate, but they only are the tip of the iceberg. And also, some of these books are written by people who really don't know that much about what they are talking about. The BEST way is to go out with your friends-of-CHinese-descent to dinners here in NYC, and very carefully watch what everyone else is doing. (or if you have time and money, go do this in china) No matter how yummy the food is, don't forget to watch and learn. Tue Oct 01 20:03:48 -0700 2002 1576415 0 Minna 4 1576421 Just a reminder that the General Topics board (and Chowhound in general) has both a national and an international readership; only on the NYC boards should you assume the readers are in NYC (or thinking about food in NYC). Tue Oct 01 20:27:56 -0700 2002 1576419 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1576449 A lot of us friends-of-Chinese descent still often use the front end for grabbing from the communal dishes (though I think most of us know better, theoretically)... sometimes that food goes straight into the mouth, without ever making it to anyone's individual plate. But I think Ju is right about the 'wrong' end -- the idea is to not get so much sauce on your chopsticks that it ever becomes a problem. How this happens, I don't know. When I do use this end, I will often wipe it on my napkin, for lack of any better alternative. I don't ever see anyone else doing that, though, and my napkin is usually well coated with sauce by the end of dinner (one reason why I often forego the 'wrong' end). Wed Oct 02 09:27:46 -0700 2002 1576419 0 RHC 4 1576513 >No matter how yummy the food is, don't forget to watch and learn. How true! This is good advice for any ethnic restaurant. It's how I learned to eat pho. Live and learn! Wed Oct 02 18:59:35 -0700 2002 1576419 0 SisterT 3 1576595 While visitting M'sia for the first time many years ago, I was in absolute shock when I found out that everyone at the table (Malaysian) dipped their spoons into the soup that was put in front of us. I could not eat the soup even when the others encouraged me. I just politely refused without any comments. The soup looked absolutely delicious but no way. After they got to know me better, they changed their ways. But this is the custom over there in Malaysia. They share their food - that's for sure. Thu Oct 03 11:44:42 -0700 2002 1576415 0 Han Lukito 1 1576426 I think it's not very formal, but patriarchal indeed (can not be denied). You will almost always find the mother or grandmother stationed next to the youngster(s) with a constantly-filled spoonful of stuff waiting to put more food into the child's mouth. The occasional cheer when the little one eats more, and more and more. Fill em up! My own wife spends much of the day following out two young kids around the house. Bowl of rice in one hand, spoonful in the other. Eat eat eat to fill that tummy :) Tue Oct 01 22:17:26 -0700 2002 1576410 0 Fritz 2 1576447 Yes, it is appropriate for a senior to pile up the choice pickings on a juniors plate (junior doesn't have to be a child), often accompanying this with an encouraging "eat, eat, eat!" Typically, during the course of the meal, the food gets piled beyond what could possibly fit into junior's stomach. Wed Oct 02 08:56:17 -0700 2002 1576426 0 RHC 3 1576454 Oh you are so right, and I'm so tired of the largest scallops and best chunks of crab meat going straight onto my kid's plate,,,,,, Wed Oct 02 11:05:16 -0700 2002 1576447 0 Fritz 3 1576470 "Yes, it is appropriate for a senior to pile up the choice pickings on a juniors plate (junior doesn't have to be a child),...." Isn't one supposed to do that for one's guests, even those that are senior, as a sign of hospitality ? Wed Oct 02 14:42:10 -0700 2002 1576447 0 ju 4 1576480 my experience has always been that the food is offered (in a rather insistent way) to the guests first, but we don't actually force food onto their plates. if in a more casual situation (like at home) serving plates are passed to guests first, if in a restaurant, everyone just waits until the guests make the first move. Wed Oct 02 15:53:09 -0700 2002 1576470 0 Nancy 1 1576429 Anothe one I've seen is tapping the table gently with your index and middle finger when someone is refilling your tea. Supposedly in a sign of appreciation? Anyone know how this came about? Tue Oct 01 22:46:19 -0700 2002 1576410 0 SG 2 1576439 Couldn't say how much truth there is to it, but here's the explanation I've heard (starts in the fourth paragraph). Link: http://www.globalgourmet.com/destinations/hongkong/hkseat.html Wed Oct 02 00:12:34 -0700 2002 1576429 0 squid-kun 3 1576440 I hear the same story from my Father many years ago. This same Emperor help gather all the great styles of food within kingdom and return them to Peking to fed his great love of food. As gg once said to me he must be the first great Chowhound. Wed Oct 02 00:19:40 -0700 2002 1576439 0 Yimster 3 1576448 Good article... reminded me of some experiences I had living in Taiwan (about 12 years ago). Not only did my friends encourage me to slurp, they also all teased me for closing my mouth closed, telling me that I didn't know how to enjoy my food properly. The argument goes, the air passing through your mouth helps you taste the food better. It's true; it works... though I'm not sure this is a tradition that you will want everyone to follow at your own dinner! BTW, the whole idea of throwing your bones onto the table (which my aunts and uncles still do) is that it is considered disgusting to throw your chewed up trash back onto your plate, with the food you intend to put back into your mouth. All food garbage can go onto the table, not just bones. Wed Oct 02 09:05:31 -0700 2002 1576439 0 RHC 4 1576466 I actually had the opposite memory when growing up. I remember my aunt instructing us to chew with our mouth closed as it is impolite and unlady-like to make too much noise. I think most table manners are important when in a large group and in more formal setting. But in family situation, most of the rules are relaxed. For example, there will be "male chopstick" and "female spoons" for the dishes on the table, they are basically common serving utensils, used by everyone to transport food to their own individual plates before eating with personal chopsticks. But if you know the company well using your own chopsticks to pick up food isn't consider bad. I think the only rule my family still observe even in causal dining is we can't tap our chipsticks against the bowls. Beggers in the old days (and now I guess) do that to get attention and food, so it's extremely bad luck an manners to tap your bowls. Wed Oct 02 14:10:02 -0700 2002 1576448 0 Wendy Lai 2 1576695 This is more of a southern China thing -- you don't see it much north of, say Fujian. Thu Oct 03 19:29:57 -0700 2002 1576429 0 foodfirst 1 1576441 I have spoken with Han and we are planning a dinner where we will cover the proper table manners. The site the squid kin is a good source. I have a few of our own. I will need a couple weeks to get everything together. Maybe a week after our pinic we can have a dinner where we go over these rules. Wed Oct 02 00:22:29 -0700 2002 1576410 0 Yimster 1 1576536 When I lived in China and did business there it was very common , in fact it happened all the time, for everyone to dive directly with their chopsticks into the main serving dishes. No serving spoons were provided and if you didnt participate in this practise you were considered rude for not wanting to be "one" with your hosts and share in the banquet. Since leaving China and returning to the West I have discovered that Im lucky I didnt pick up Hepatitis B and C which are spread at communal dinners through saliva. Apparently both diseases are absolutely rampant in China now for this reason. I have to go back again to do business and wondered how can I politely avoid catching something.Is there a Chinese custom applicable here? Wed Oct 02 21:45:13 -0700 2002 1576410 0 weipanlan 2 1576559 There are some taboos about eating out of communial plates. At least this is what I have been told, and have observed. But then again eating here in China seems very ritualized, and important. You are not supposed to dig around on a plate. you are supposed to eat from your side, take only what your chopsticks have touched, and when at all possible, don't touch you chopsticks to your saliva. It is a delicate task, but I have seen many people observing these important points. Think of it, one of the oldest cultures in the world,(a country filled with eaters!) spreading lethal germs at every meal. Doesn't seem logical. peace, jill Thu Oct 03 04:48:46 -0700 2002 1576536 0 jill 2 1576593 My recommendation is DO NOT RISK IT at all if you know they are having this problem over there. If necessary, get another job, if this seems to be a problem. It is not worth getting a Hepatitis disease over some jobs. I rather be earning a minimum wage than getting an incurable disease that will threaten my life. No way ! As a matter of fact, I will seriously reconsider any vacation trips to China if this problem is rampant until a vaccine is discovered - I don't know if one exist currently for the B and C type. It is soooo scary. A friend of mine had hepatitis and she had to be hospitalized for weeks and almost died. If you got a job, you will certainly lose it if the disease struck. Thu Oct 03 11:38:39 -0700 2002 1576536 0 Han Lukito 3 1576653 Hepatitis A, B, and C are not always life-threatening. They express themselves in many forms in infected individuals. There are safe and effective vaccines for Hepatitis A and C. Newborns are routinely vaccinated for Hep B in the US today. Thu Oct 03 15:38:48 -0700 2002 1576593 0 Melanie Wong 4 1576656 I meant to say that there are safe and effective vaccines for Hepatitis A and for Hepatitis B. There are no vaccines currently for Hepatitis C. Thu Oct 03 15:44:44 -0700 2002 1576653 0 Melanie Wong 4 1576779 " Hepatitis A, B, and C are not always life-threatening. They express themselves in many forms in infected individuals." While it is true that acute infections with these hepatitis viruses are usually not life-threatening, it is the long term effects that can be devastating. I"m talking about Hep B & C, not Hep A. Being a carrier(i.e. having the antigen but not the antibody for Hep B or C) is associated with an increased risk for cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma (=liver cancer). If one just has the antibodies but not the antigens for Hep B or C, then you've been previously infected but managed to mount an adequate immune response and so are now immune to the disease. Fri Oct 04 13:14:14 -0700 2002 1576653 0 ju 3 1576697 The very slight undertone of hysteria in these posts related to hepatitis seems bizarre. I do practice careful chowhounding in less than hygenic situations, but one needn't go overboard. Yes it is a problem in China (as in many other countries), but there are vaccines for A&B. I've eaten in just about every type of food shop/restaurant in China, including a pretty grubby one in one of the poorest counties in Anhui, with some farmers who I suppose may have well had one of the heps. I found the putrid small boney fish in custard to be more frightening than the prospect of getting hep -- bec I'd simply gotten vaccines for A&B before leaving the US.(I mean, haven't we had cases of E coli in raw alfalfa sprouts, beef, and gosh knows what else in the US? And that is often fatal.)I think that any Chinese person who invited you to dinner in China would be very puzzled, if not offended, if you took your own serving spoon out at a banquet table and insisted on touching no dish that others' chopsticks had touched. Carry a spoon and chopsticks in China if you like, but I would save them for meals that I wasnt' sharing with locals.(BTW I've seen folks in China swish their chopsticks in a glass of baijiu before using them, to kill "germs") Thu Oct 03 19:46:44 -0700 2002 1576593 0 foodfirst 4 1576701 Even here in the US, it's quite common to see Chinese folks use hot tea to wash off their bowls and utensils wiped dry with paper napkins before eating. Another word about vaccines before travel - the dosage schedule for Hep A vax is over a 12 month period and the schedule for Hep B vax is either 6 months or 12 months. So, one must plan ahead to have full immunity before a trip. Also, because a very large percentage of the population (yes, even Americans) have been infected by Hep A in childhood (without symptoms), many are already immune. It can be worthwhile to be tested for antibodies to HAV first to avoid unneccesary vaccination. Thu Oct 03 20:13:31 -0700 2002 1576697 0 Melanie Wong 5 1576763 Hot tea is preferable to me -- I prefer not to get within 100 feet of baijiu! Fri Oct 04 11:37:37 -0700 2002 1576701 0 foodfirst 3 1576703 I'll also mention that if one were born and raised in Indonesia, one has already had a much higher risk of contracting Hep B or C than during a month-long business trip to China unless one were having unprotected sex with infected individuals and using intravenous drugs. Thu Oct 03 20:28:02 -0700 2002 1576593 0 Melanie Wong 3 1576781 "As a matter of fact, I will seriously reconsider any vacation trips to China if this problem is rampant until a vaccine is discovered - I don't know if one exist currently for the B and C type." Yes, there is a vaccine for Hep B, but not one for C. Your risk of contracting B & C from sharing saliva is extremely low (horizontal transmission is usually from sharing needles, blood transfusions, or unprotected sex, and vertical transmission is from mother to child). Hepatitis A, as one poster has said, is spread through the oral-fecal route, but there is an effective vaccine. However, as mentioned in another post, if you grew up in SE Asia or Asia, you may have already had subclinical Hep A so you might want to get your doctor to check for serum Hep A antibodies before getting vaccinated. Fri Oct 04 13:20:50 -0700 2002 1576593 0 ju 2 1576652 Hepatitis is an ancient disease with a long history in Asia, which is the main reason it is so common. While it had been hypothesized that the huge prevalence of Hepatitis B & C in Asia is due to communal eating, this is really not true. The titer of virus present in saliva is actually quite low. The main mode of transmission for Hep B (the form common in ethnic Chinese populations) is vertical transmission from mother to child. With vaccination programs and careful management of Hepatitis-infected mothers, considerable headway has been made in reducing new infections and is gradually being wiped out. If Hep B were spread by chopsticks, this would not be possible. Hepatitis C is more common in Japan. Both, like HIV, are difficult to transmit through casual contact. On the other hand, Hepatitis A is spread by oral-fecal contact and is a risk anywhere that unsanitary food-handling practices occur. Thu Oct 03 15:36:11 -0700 2002 1576536 0 Melanie Wong 2 1576658 One way to handle this is to carry your own serving spoon. Then you tell the hosts that YOU might have a cold and are not feeling well and do not want to possibly infect THEM. Thu Oct 03 15:47:13 -0700 2002 1576536 0 Melanie Wong