290195 Fri Aug 30 17:05:14 -0700 2002 22 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1573999 I'm reading Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser right now. I'm only a third through, and already I'm slightly appalled and also at the same time intrigued by the observation and points he is making. Basically, he is drawing conclusion the (ill) effects of fast food and its culture on this country's eating habits, labor practices, business philosphoy and even city planning and building construction. The effects are far reaching and seemly pentrating to every corner or our society and almost to every corner of this world. Sort of scary... Anybody else read it? Fri Aug 30 17:05:14 -0700 2002 0 Wendy Lai 1 1574002 Yes, and like you I found it extremely informative on many levels and also, deeply disturbing in its sociological context. It really is about more than "just" food. I found especially fascinating the parts dealing with the gradual development of classic fast food items like burgers and fries, when in the process of forever replacing one ingredient with another in the interest of economy, efficiency, ease, and even twisted theories of what's "healthy" (no animal fat!), the food essentially becomes worthless in terms of nutrition and eventually downrights damaging to your body. Fri Aug 30 17:15:40 -0700 2002 1573999 0 Katerina 1 1574003 I read it last year, so the details are a little fuzzy, but I was generally very impressed with his argument. Like many authors, he reaches sometimes in order to tie everything together into a neat bundle, but I still found the overall point--that fast food is not just a nutritional/culinary nightmare, but a cultural one too--pretty much on the mark. Maybe I'll read it again... Fri Aug 30 17:21:26 -0700 2002 1573999 0 david in NOLa 1 1574008 I read it a few weeks ago. Very informative, very disturbing. To me, the author comes across as ranting at some points, but he does a good job of footnoting his arguments in the rear of the book. As a parent, I was especially disturbed by the soft drink companies trying to get the school districts to depend on them for money in return for letting them have unbridled access to push soft drinks on students at school. The chapters about the beef processors were eye opening. I'd recommend it to all who eat. I haven't heard of any commentary from the fast food/softdrink companies about the book. Has anyone heard any comments/rebuttals from them? Fri Aug 30 17:48:03 -0700 2002 1573999 0 Jim 1 1574010 Read it last year and thought it a great read - ilike watching a horrifying car accident in slow motion. This may sound like an odd segue but having studied architecture in grad school I believe our environment effects our daily lives. Strip malls, isolating suburbs, Disneyesque architecture, car culture, Walmarts, fastfood, cellphones and more is impacting our lives and society (I know I'm streaching) and it is ultimately about making a quick buck. I admit I'm a bit of a Luddite - I believe the way to stay connected is to be unconnected (no cell phone for me but I do have road runner - the conundrum of modern life) Another great read: The Silent Takeover: Global Capitalism and the Death of Democracy by Noreena Hertz okay, I''ll shut up now...... Fri Aug 30 18:01:53 -0700 2002 1573999 0 mark 1 1574011 I read this book in one sitting, disgusted, fascinated and captivated. I found it a very "physical" read, one that gets the nerves racing, the stomach churning - a brilliant handling of a subject that, at the most basic level, is a "physical" one, the act of consumption. How strange it is that the most natural need can lead to such manafactured horror. I had the absolute pleasure of seeing the author speak at the LA library along with Jonathan Gold. Too wonderful. Fri Aug 30 18:09:25 -0700 2002 1573999 0 crumpet 2 1574013 Funny, I had the opposite reaction. Unlike an engrossing novel where I can't put it down. I'm finding I'm reading this book in section. I guess even though it's really fansinating, it's still a little like reading a text book for me. Fri Aug 30 18:15:24 -0700 2002 1574011 0 Wendy Lai 3 1574057 ya, i found it too disturbing to read all at once. i needed breaks. Sat Aug 31 23:32:08 -0700 2002 1574013 0 renee 1 1574024 I just downloaded this one from Audible.com (audio books) and was going to start listening to it next week. After hearing everyone's comments, I'm now more curious than ever and will probably listen to it over this holiday weekend. Hmmm.... Fri Aug 30 21:40:02 -0700 2002 1573999 0 SisterT 1 1574025 Yeah, I read it and found it pretty depressing. It made me wonder how the hell we're ever gonna get out of this mess. I thought the connections between the automobile/freeway, and truck transportation were interesting; really, the architecture of the last half of the century is tied in. Then I took a road trip and noticed what was out there and realized that the Applebee's ad (eatin' good in the neighborhood) probably speaks to people because the mall at the intersection IS their neighborhood. I also remember the part about McDonald's being in the real estate business, not the food business. And certainly not the nourishment business. And then there's the part about working the line in a slaughterhouse. Imagine the line going faster than one steer per minute! Well, my mind at least just boggles. And then I think of the lines snaking through all the drive thrus, all the overworked Moms who just commuted 2 hours getting that for their families just one more time... So, I found it enlightening, overwhelming, discouraging. I hope someone can convince me it isn't all true... Fri Aug 30 21:45:34 -0700 2002 1573999 0 suzannapilaf 1 1574038 A terrific book: informative, infuriating, depressing, deeply humane. What lingers months after reading it, besides the sense of outrage it stirs, are the vivid portraits of people and places Schlosser encountered in his reporting -- the McDonald brothers, Carl Karcher and the rest of the bootstrap crowd that started the fast food industry; the secret flavor and scent factories in New Jersey; the progressive cattle rancher beaten down by the system; the woman whose kid died a gruesome death because of E. coli-contaminated beef. Reasons to come away encouraged are few; yet they're worth noting. One is Schlosser's cautious confidence in the power of ordinary people to effect change -- the British activists who won the McLibel case, for example, or the good-guy pizza franchisee in Colorado who does his best to inject humanity into an inhumane business model. Even McDonalds may not be entirely beyond reform. Schlosser credits it with promoting slightly more humane slaughtering practices. The beef industry, after resisting for years, caved in quickly once its No. 1 customer asked for changes. Now McDonalds' sales are slipping, and it's tempting to wonder if there's an opening for more change. Just to pick one item on the wish list: What if one of Ronald's suits got the idea that there might be a growing demand for beef raised without antibiotics? By the way, a good companion piece is Michael Pollan's New York Times Magazine story from earlier this year. He writes about how he bought a calf to get an inside look at how beef is produced. Here's a link to it on a sustainable ranching site. Link: http://www.ranchwest.com/pollan.html Sat Aug 31 06:58:46 -0700 2002 1573999 0 squid-kun 1 1574042 After reading FFN, I found and read another book that may be of interest to some; it's called "Portrait of a Burger as a Young Calf; the True Story of One Man, Two Cows, and the Feeding of a Nation" by Peter Lovenheim. This is not an expose like FFN, but is a journalistic view of life on a dairy farm. The author, while buying a happy meal for his daughter, realized how little he and the general public know about where their food comes from. He decided to buy two calves from a small dairy farm in NY, and document their lives from conception to consumption. Although the book is ultimately a bit anticlimactic, it gives a very detailed view of how independently-owned dairy farms are run; everything from the breeding of young heifers to their final walk through the milking machine to their auction for slaughter at old age. There is also quite a bit about the human element, the lives of the farmers and their families, their co-workers, and what their community is like. It was surprising to read that when sick,lame, or about-to-die animals are removed from the farms, they are auctioned off and are mosly bought by large slaughterhouses that provide product for the major fast food chains. These slaughterhouses also buy week-old bull calves from dairy farms because they are useless to a dairy farmer. The meat is often inferior "dairy beef" (dairy cows are bred differently than beef cows; they are taller an bonier)When the author asked to visit one of these large slaughterhouses, he was politely invited to come by. When they realized he was a journalist, he was immediately turned away. After reading FFN and Portrait of a burger, and with the most recent ConAgra recall, I have sworn off fast food meat for good. I have also done a search for all of ConAgra's products to make sure I nor any of my friends or family buy any of their brands again (which include Reddi Whip, Wesson Oil , Hebrew National, and Butterball, btw). Sat Aug 31 13:10:10 -0700 2002 1573999 0 tedm 1 1574046 There are plenty of people, myself included, who have been avoiding fast food for years because they know it is both bad for you and unwholesome in the other ways-all of which and more, are described in Fast Food Nation. Except for some chapters (noted two paragraphs down), his book did not say too much that was not already known by many moderately well read and informed people, especially those predisposed against fast food. Who did not know that fast food industry targets kids with their marketing? Or that slaughterhouses are inhumane factories manned by workers making little pay in miserable conditions? Also, some of the broader arguments like influencing the country’s business philosophy and labor practices were intriguing, but sometimes not in-depth enough to be convincing. In addition they occasionally had a rather chicken-and-egg feeling-- it was not shown conclusively what was influencing what. On the other hand, the book fills in a lot of blanks, such as the fascinating history of the industry, its founders, the food flavor labs in New Jersey, futile struggles to organize industry workers, and extent to which the fast food industry has penetrated schools. Basically, I thought that this book is one that should be read by avid fast food consumers. However, it is the kind of book that attracts people who are already inclined to think negatively of the fast food industry. Most everyone else is going to keep on buying fast food and the chains will continue spreading around the world. Fast food is still immensely popular despite the now common knowledge of its dark side, both for your arteries and waistline, and also for society as a whole. In addition to the power of the corporations, the reason fast food continues to be devoured in amazing quantities is that most people just don’t care, they find that the good points outweigh the badEmainly, fast food tastes good, it’s cheap and convenient. Just blaming the corporations smacks of disingenuousness. This kind of attitude leads to fat people suing fast food companies with ludicrous claims such as the food is addictive, the companies brainwash consumers and that consumers are mislead into thinking the food is nutritious and nonfattening. Rather they should blame themselves for eating the stuff, feeding it to their kids, and should have to pay the rest of us for our more expensive health insurance premiums and taxes (ever since the government started allowing taxpayers to claim weight loss expenses as a medical deductions and even more if courts deign to adjudicate these frivolous cases). I find it unfortunate that people eat fast food like they do, just as it bothers me that Americans are apathetic on lots of other important issues too. But rather than point fingers or feel helpless, here, much of the root of the problem will be discovered if people would just look into a mirror. Not eating it yourself and encouraging loved ones not to would be a not insignificant start. Another idea is to give this book (or other good ones in the genre) as a gift to any fast food consumers among your friends and family. Sat Aug 31 17:10:01 -0700 2002 1573999 0 Minna 1 1574048 read it, loved it, was seriously disturbed. i can't say that my food choices have changed much. although i had already been absent from all the fast food chains (except the obligatory water bottle purchase on greyhound trips) i certainly had a new take on the impact that these places have on my life no matter what i do. Have you read Diet for a New America? is by Bill Robbins. This book will tell you about the scandal involving the folks who supply mcdonalds! another good book is Food Politics by marion nestle (not related to THAT nestle) Sat Aug 31 17:36:11 -0700 2002 1573999 0 renee 2 1574214 Although I believe it is THAT Robbins family(the "Baskin-" variety) that Bill is from... Tue Sep 03 15:40:35 -0700 2002 1574048 0 Jill-O 1 1574053 The meat in burgers from fast food chains is bad enough, does anyone know if the meat in most independent restaurants (including upmarket restaurants) is any better? I would be interested to hear. Thank you. Sat Aug 31 21:36:12 -0700 2002 1573999 0 anglo-estonian 2 1574056 it all comes from the same few packing plants. that's why ground beef+e. coli is such a terrifying thing...one chunk of infected beef can infect millions of pounds. especially with the sanitary conditions in these places. Sat Aug 31 23:27:10 -0700 2002 1574053 0 renee 3 1574062 I agree about e-coli, but I was thinking more about how the cattle (or other animals) are raised. I imagine that in most cases fast food meat and "restaurant" meat come from the same place, I hope I am wrong. Sun Sep 01 09:06:57 -0700 2002 1574056 0 anglo-estonian 4 1574068 You are right, most meat for consumption at home and in restaurants all comes from the same large processors. (Poultry processing is also extremely concentrated in the hands of a few.) There are, however (and luckily) a growing number of restaurants that are seeking out smaller producers who process under more humane conditions. Think Neiman Ranch meats. They produce both beef and pork. Their livestock is organically raised using sustainable agricultural methods. The meat is hormone and antibiotic free and has been allowed to have enough space to move around. The beef, I believe, is primarily raised in western Marin County in CA, while they actively recruit(ed) hog farmers in Iowa to raise and process hogs to the Neiman farming specifications. Interestingly, they had little trouble finding farmers quite willing to raise organic hogs using sustainable methods. Neiman Ranch meats are available retail in quite a few grocery stores in CA, and probably other stores out of state as well. Many mid to upscale restaurants do use Neiman Ranch meat. There is also the budding Grassland movement, which in a nut shell, is the return to grazing cattle on grasslands until ready for slaughter so that they are entirely grass fed. I've been told this meat does have a somewhat different flavor and is slightly less tender than grain fed beef. A large, and growing, number of chefs are very concerned about where our food is coming from and the fact that a lot of Americans have little understanding of where their food comes from and the pressures being put on our agricultural resources. They have formed the Chefs Collaborative to address these issues and begin trying to educate and raise the level of awareness regarding the food chain and the benefits of sustainable agriculture. I've posted the URL for their web site below. Link: http://www.chefnet.com/cc2000 Sun Sep 01 11:51:33 -0700 2002 1574062 0 Gayla 1 1574060 I haven't read it, but remember I am out of the loop. What impresses me is the international effect. I live in Beijing, and have been for 7 years. I am ALWAYS amazed at the number of people in the fast food places here. My Chinese friends love KFC-Kentucky Chicken to them. My amazement stems from the fact that there is so much wonderful, healthy, local food available here at a fraction of the price. So what is the attraction? I don't know! the uniqueness of the presentation? The novelties? there is something that draws people back. My son, now 7, often attends birthday parties that include a full menu from these fast food places! Is it a status symbol? Argh! Ex-pats often crave these unique and CONSISTANT food items. It is an industry of predictable pleasure? Desire? I don't know, but it works here as in other places! Just an aside...there are often large groups of children being entertained and fed at these places here. The future of the business? I have more questions than answers. I guess I need to read! peace, jill Sun Sep 01 03:53:44 -0700 2002 1573999 0 jill 2 1574141 I had similar questions while living and Tokyo and travelling in China. 'Fast Food Nation' does not answer these questions. Anecdote: a friend working in a secondary school in China told me that kids beg to go to McDonalds but it is still very expensive for many Chinese families. So the parents by buns with no filling- they are cheap at grocery stores everywhere there-- and take them into McDonalds to eat while their kid eats hamburgers and fries. You may be able to explain this phenomenon from the parents' point of view by the only child-spoiled kids theory, in that parents will do anything for their child. But how about the kids? More insight may be gained by watching the classic film, The Colonel Goes to Japan. It is about how KFC began and got established in Japan, and although i saw it years ago in a college class, I remember it was fascinating. Mon Sep 02 20:11:14 -0700 2002 1574060 0 Minna 1 1574065 There was a fairly long thread about this subject recently: Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/286778#1539216 Sun Sep 01 10:46:31 -0700 2002 1573999 0 Maria 1 1574081 I saw a couple of great reviews at this site: http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Fast-Food-Nation.htm The Atlantic has a great interview with the author here: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/ba2000-12-14.htm Nobody mentioned where to buy the book, so I'm posting the Amazon.com site here. All your reviews on this book make me want to buy it immediately!! I will put it on my Christmas list. Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060938455/002-2732377-2852013 Sun Sep 01 21:57:29 -0700 2002 1573999 0 bunnyr