289949 Mon Jul 29 11:58:39 -0700 2002 98 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1571591 OK. So now you’ve selected the ideal restaurant (Chowhound Know How), decided not to Cut & Run, & are mid-chow. What are those non-food annoyances that might, either individually or cumulatively, dissuade you from returning? For your consideration: MR. GRUB'S TOP 15 RESTAURANT ANNOYANCES 1. Unpriced daily specials: If printed menu has printed prices, spoken menu should have spoken prices. 2. Crashing dishes courtesy of buspersons 3. The exhilarating aroma of Pinesol 4. Supercharged, aggressively friendly servers: “Hi, my name is Debbie Ruth. I’ll be your server tonight. How you guys doin’? I’ll be right back. Swooosh.” 5. Ancient, my-feet-hurt servers: “Tonight’s special (groan) is (achhh) meatloaf.” 6. Servers insistently call couples (including the intoxicatingly feminine Mme. Grubbe) “you guys.” 7. Ear-bleeding noise 8. Tables so close together you can’t get out of your seat 9. Dining room temperature: 600 degrees; wine room temperature: 550 degrees 10. Tippy tables 11. “Are you still working on that?” “Yep, just waiting for the glue to dry.” 12. Clearing one diner’s place before another diner is finished. 13. Having to order your own side dishes: “Would you like Mae’s potatoes or fennel rice pilaf with that?” 14. Servers carefully place fork from course A on table to be used with course B. 15. Servers persistently pour your wine, including the last few drops, sediment and all. Mon Jul 29 11:58:39 -0700 2002 0 Mr Grub 1 1571593 Tables too close together is my bugbear When I was at both Blue Hill and Jo Jo in the last few months, they had so many tables crammed into such a small space that every time some one wanted to go to the bathroom, the whole palce had to re configure to allow them. This happened about 20 times in each place, leading to me dubbing it " The Piss Waltz" Beyond the pale S Mon Jul 29 12:29:50 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Simon Majumdar 2 1571645 This is also my #1 pet peeve...I first noticed this in Manhattan many years ago where it seemed to be almost the norm, and considering the density of Manhattan, it somehow made sense (this is not a putdown of NYC, I love it and always have). But over the years I noticed it was becoming all too common place in Chicago, and I detest it. Or as a friend of mine and I joke, it's too damned intimate, not with the person you're with, but with the 4 or 6 strangers that you're now, for all intents and purposes, sharing a communal dining experience. Tue Jul 30 01:49:11 -0700 2002 1571593 0 mw 2 1571694 What I especially love about places with close tables is when they come over to reset the table, spray that chemical on the table while you are in the middle of your meal. Tue Jul 30 12:51:34 -0700 2002 1571593 0 AGM/Cape Cod 1 1571595 I'll add one to that list, Paying 2 bucks for a soda, for an 8 ounce glass that gives you about 3 sips (if you ration) due to the displacement of the ice and small glass. And you have to pay for a refill. Mon Jul 29 12:41:25 -0700 2002 1571591 0 fatboy 2 1571624 The no-refills, all-ice drinks? I ask for NO ICE and a separate glass of ice. Not to be done in the fancy-schmancy places, but seems to work! Mon Jul 29 21:37:51 -0700 2002 1571595 0 Lynne Hodgman 1 1571597 Concerning waitstaff: 1. The "I'm so over it", eye-rolling waitperson. 2. The 10 people who wait on you--the person who takes your order, the person who fills your water glasses, the person who brings the bread, the person who brings the app, a different person with more water, someone else to take the app away, your order taker (Ah! A familiar face!), the gang who descends with all the food at once and so on... 3. The overly apologetic waitperson--"I'm sorry, let me just get by...I'm sorry about the reach...I'm sorry, you need WATER!...I'm sorry it's taking so long [it's not]...I'm sorry it's so loud...I'm sorry, I'm not sure if it comes with a sauce...I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry..." 4. The absentee host/hostess Mon Jul 29 13:06:09 -0700 2002 1571591 0 raj1 2 1571600 1. The waiter nick-named "Godot" by the other staff.2. The waitress that knocks over a $150 bottle of wine into the lap of your dinner guests, muttering "Oh shit!" and then refuses to replace the bottle or take it off the bill. (Ruth's Chris, Palm Beach Gardens, FL)3. The waiter who waxes poetic about a special-cut tenderloin (priced at a mere $50) and then brings you something you wouldn't serve to a dog. (Charley's in Orlando, FL which is usually excellent) Mon Jul 29 13:22:17 -0700 2002 1571597 0 flavrmeistr 1 1571602 Last issue of Food & Wine had a list of the top 20 annoyances while dining out. It included all the usual suspects -- overly friendly waitstaff, slow service, loud dining room, blah, blah, and then this: #18 on the list of annoyances (annoying 2% of those polled): people who groan when eating delicious food. ?? Mon Jul 29 13:38:36 -0700 2002 1571591 0 GG Mora 2 1571606 I have to agree with this particular point on F&W's list. I have a very dear friend (female) who frequently emits 'yummy noises' when dining on something that especially hits her fancy. While this is very flattering when it is something I have cooked, I find it a bit less commendable when out at a restaurant. We often dine out with her and her husband, both in our home town and overseas, and this has frequently been the source of awkward glances from nearby tables (not that she is on a part with that scene from "When Harry Met Sally", but close). Mon Jul 29 13:46:41 -0700 2002 1571602 0 Witness Protection Program 3 1571610 She's only imitating Rachel Ray on FoodTV. Mon Jul 29 14:06:40 -0700 2002 1571606 0 Jim H. 4 1571611 Ah yes. One wonders if she's as good at faking other things as she is at faking yummy-noises. It makes me want to make little sicky noises. Mon Jul 29 14:09:57 -0700 2002 1571610 0 PRSMDave 4 1571617 Who is Rachel Ray?? Never heard of her. Mon Jul 29 20:48:59 -0700 2002 1571610 0 WPP 5 1571634 Consider yourself really lucky. Mon Jul 29 22:45:51 -0700 2002 1571617 0 Jim H. 5 1571637 Think - motor mouth goodey two shoes. Ohhhhhhhhh, isn't this just too, too grand? Mon Jul 29 23:27:08 -0700 2002 1571617 0 Karolyn 6 1571746 She's gonna be a plump old grandma living in Minnesota some Day . ( Think the movie Fargo accent:) " Oh dear , the hot dish is done already , oh my ! " Tue Jul 30 23:28:00 -0700 2002 1571637 0 GoalieJeff 5 1571649 Rachael (her preferred spelling) Ray hosts two shows on the food network -- 30 Minute Meals and $40 a Day. I can tolerate Rachael Ray and I cannot tolerate Bobby Flay! Link: http://www.foodtv.com Tue Jul 30 04:42:16 -0700 2002 1571617 0 Norm 4 1571620 I cannot STAND that woman!! Her show and Emeril's are the two that cause me to rush headlong for the remote to change the channel as soon as I hear their intros. Mon Jul 29 21:02:20 -0700 2002 1571610 0 James G 1 1571608 At a neighborhood cheap Chinese restaurant, I looked at their paper take-home version of the menu and ordered a chow fun. I was billed $1 more than the menu said, so I pointed out the mistake to the waitress. She gave me an argument, and then to prove her point she brought over the big, plastic-coated version of the menu which stated that fun noodles were a dollar-extra over regular noodles. This info was not on the menu I used. I didn't mind paying a little more. What I did mind was the way she turned this into a contest, and the way she gloated when she prevailed. I've never been back. Mon Jul 29 13:58:15 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Sharuf 1 1571612 Oh, God, where do I start? 0. The We're-So-Cool Crowd. Slow service at the host desk, which causes people to wait in a line out the door so that everyone on the boulevard can see how trendy and popular the place is. This also goes for once you've checked in for your 'flight'... for God's sakes, get a bigger bar! 1. The Drink Bait-and-Switch. I hate drinks with half-melted ice in them. Either keep the ice frozen or replace it when it melts. I don't want my bourbon-and-Coke or whatever to be half water because you're too cheap to replace the ice, especially when I'm paying $7 or (in the case of nightclub/restaurants) as much as $10 for it. 2. "I Don't Know..." Waitstaff should know the food and how it is prepared. This includes things like "does it contain meat stock" - this is L.A., there are lots of vegetarians, my father-in-law is one of them, and he does not want marinara sauce with beef stock thank you very much. 3. "I Don't Know... Redux" If there's not a sommelier in a restaurant, and I start asking questions about the wines, I expect you to either answer them intelligently or find someone who knows what they're talking about. It's painfully obvious when you recommend the most expensive bottle of Pinot Noir, and it's just as painfully obvious when you're just picking something because the name sounds cool. ("Hmm, I wasn't aware that Corbett Canyon Chardonnay was your #1 recommendation.") If there's no one around who can answer the questions, just TELL me instead of bullsh*tting me. 4. Flavour Follies. When I ask you if it's regular (or plain) iced tea, do not lie to me. I hate passionfruit flavouring. It does not taste like passionfruit. It does not taste like passionfruit dipped in sugar. It tastes like unadulterated ass. Thus, when I ask you if the tea is flavoured, you should respond with the correct answer and not LIE. 5. Flavour Follies Cont'd. Do not refill my iced tea, my coffee, or my hot tea when it's halfway down the cup. It ruins the sweetness factor. 6. Wet Fingers For Everybody. This is my single biggest bugaboo in restaurants from Marie Callender's all the way up to the houses of gastronomy in the Bay Area. When I order iced tea, which of course never comes pre-sweetened in California, I need to add sugar to it. I do not want to stir it with my straw because I always - ALWAYS - get ice and tea all over the table. I do not want to use a coffee spoon because it disappears in the glass and once it hits the sugar at the bottom, I get wet fingers because it's sunk beneath the surface. If you're going to serve iced tea, either provide iced tea spoons or use shorter glasses. 7. More Utensils Per Placesetting than People at Table. Utensils should be replaced with each course, rather than having a maze of utensils worthy of a 1960s Home Ec textbook. This MEANS that you get wine glasses with the wine, you get a knife with your entree that is not your bread-and-butter knife. When I am done with utensils I put them on the plate used. I can't tell you how many times I've had to ask for a new knife because they failed to replace the old one. This also means utensils appropriate for the course; do not expect me to hack into your pot roast with a butter knife; it ain't Charolais tenderloin. That's just the start... I could continue but I have work to do. Mon Jul 29 14:30:27 -0700 2002 1571591 0 PRSMDave 2 1571627 The corollary of your number 7: please do not ask me to recover my initial table setting of flatware from my salad or appetizer plate to rest on the tablecloth (or worse, the bare table) for the main course. Ew. Blue skies, Catherine Mon Jul 29 22:29:09 -0700 2002 1571612 0 Catherine 3 1571643 Or how about when silverware is set out for salad and main course, but the busboy has no clue what's what, and he puts your salad fork back on the tablecloth when he clears the plate....(this just happened to me Saturday night.) Tue Jul 30 01:16:59 -0700 2002 1571627 0 Scooter Pie 2 1571628 I hate sweetened ice tea, but you would like the way they do it at Sawtell Kitchen in West LA in which they give you a little bottle of simple syrup in a tiny syrup bottle with the thumb operated slide. It is already dissolved and just a slight stir with your straw or anything and it is mixed. Mon Jul 29 22:30:27 -0700 2002 1571612 0 WLA 2 1571641 Re: I Don't Know Redux -- there was no sommelier in the restaurant, and our waitress said "Gee, it's too bad the sommelier is off tonight, he could really help you out with that." Veeerry popular Bay Area restaurant. Needless to say we have not returned. Tue Jul 30 00:53:16 -0700 2002 1571612 0 foodfirst 2 1571693 Better still is when the waitron leans over your shoulder, peers at the wine list and says "oh you want #42?" Tells me they have no clue! Tue Jul 30 12:49:07 -0700 2002 1571612 0 AGM/Cape Cod 3 1571709 Well, after reading the thread on "not about food" several weeks ago where a guy thought he ordered a $30 wine and got a $200 or 300 wine, I might think the waitress was just making certain you both knew which wine was ordered. Tue Jul 30 15:05:57 -0700 2002 1571693 0 Sarnie 1 1571616 Here are my two pet peeves: 1. Being ignored because I am dining alone. I eat out frequently, often alone. I hate it when I am waiting for a table, and I am ignored, while all the pairs who came in after me get seated. I understand that I will be taking up the same size table as a couple, but will be spending (and probably tipping) considerably less. But if you are going to only seat me after all the pairs have gotten tables, tell me up front, don't just ignore me and leave me standing in the front of the restaurant. 2. Not getting change. I usually pay in cash. I put the money on the tray with the bill, and the waiter takes it away. I wait for my change. And wait. And wait... I feel that I should be the one to decide how much to tip. If the bill comes to $15, and I put $20 on the tray, it doesn't necessarily mean that I want to leave a $5 tip (33%). I get the feeling that the waiter thinks that if he doesn't bring my change quickly, I will get tired of waiting for it, and will be too embarrassed to ask for it, and will just leave, thereby giving him a larger tip than he might have gotten otherwise. It has also happpened the other way, where the amount of change I was waiting for was less, or even considerably less, than the amount I had planned to tip. Mon Jul 29 20:47:56 -0700 2002 1571591 0 ruth arcone 2 1571623 Oh you reminded me of my current pet peeve, worse than the slow change return... I HATE being asked, "do you want change?". How rude and arrogant. It cuts the tip in half as far as I'm concerned. Then when you say "yes", to make it even more special, you get people who make a face like you are the cheapest thing on earth and it is lucky you've finished dinner or we would spit in your food. Mon Jul 29 21:25:04 -0700 2002 1571616 0 Stanley Stephan 1 1571625 DO NOT bring my main course 30 seconds after you have served the appetizer. Mon Jul 29 21:50:11 -0700 2002 1571591 0 LB 1 1571629 Insects. Of ANY kind. Scott P.S. (or is that BEYOND "annoying"?) Mon Jul 29 22:31:51 -0700 2002 1571591 0 bunnyr 2 1571630 Especially cockroaches when your wife is pregnant. Mon Jul 29 22:38:40 -0700 2002 1571629 0 Ciaohound 3 1571687 Or silverfish in Chinese chicken salad (snicker). Tue Jul 30 11:53:15 -0700 2002 1571630 0 PRSMDave 1 1571632 Being what one might call a "culinary curmudgeon", I have a lot of peeves. My biggest (and fortunately it doesn't happen too often) is the surcharge for items that should be included. I recall a meal in Phoenix several years ago where two of us (of four) were charged $1.50 extra because we had bleu cheese dressing on our salads. This was a place where entrees were in the $30-40 category. That is just TACKY, tacky. Charge more, but don't nickle and dime the customer like a fast food place. Even McDonalds gives all the free ketchup you want. Mon Jul 29 22:40:54 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Jim H. 1 1571636 OK, you got me. I was going to abstain but I can't resist any longer. At dinner a few months ago, at one of our favorite local haunts, I struck gold with the Holy Disgusting Quartet all at once. 1) Tables too close together started as the genesis of this particular nightmare. 2) I am disgusted by diners who tuck their napkins over their chest into their clothes, especially women. In this case, both the man and the woman had the cleavage-tuck look. 3) Emitting sounds, slurps, and orgastic noises as a person eats always makes me ill, and these two pieces of work excelled at all three, as they disgustingly devoured their meal. 4) And the topper was between dinner and their dessert, they pulled out toothpicks and were picking their teeth until their dessert arrived. For like 10 minutes, I mean, how much food can get in between one's teeth during dinner? Maybe they never brush, that would just add to the horror show. I was beyond nausiated and told my wife NEVER again would I dine next to anyone remotely looking like that couple or especially THAT couple, because I think they're regulars. Then a couple of weekends ago we returned to the same restaurant for brunch. While my wife was parking the car and I was requesting a table, who did I see? You guessed it Mr. & Mrs. Gross-Out. They were near the front of the restaurant and I asked the hostess for a table all the way at the rear. If there wasn't one available, I swear I was leaving!! We sat at the very rear table and I faced away from them. I couldn't even sneak a glance. Mon Jul 29 22:56:12 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Ciaohound 1 1571646 I don't get #13. I'd love to be able to have "creative control" over what side I receive. Often, I end up ordering an entree because one of the accompaniments woos me. Tue Jul 30 01:49:47 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Dave Feldman 2 1571647 I've gotta agree with you on this one, Dave. When I'm back in the States, I love hitting up barbecue joints with a couple of friends. If the joint offers 6 differents sides to choose from, we'll each get a meat plus (different) two. This way, we each get to taste all 6 sides. And, it leads to a much more informed choice selection, if a second trip is warranted. Yoroshiku, Andy Tue Jul 30 03:27:28 -0700 2002 1571646 0 Andy P. 2 1571654 I agree. It depends on the type of restaurant. I think choice of sides is OK in casual restaurants. I was once in a frou-frou "seasonal" restaurant straight out of Gourmet's top 50 list with a relative who, upon reading a detailed description of an entree and its list of accompanying veggies, sauces, etc., asked if she could have rice instead of sweet potato. It was fun watching the waiter's face. You could tell he was trying to decide if it would be possible to explain the sweet potatoes were part of the dish, not a "side". He commendably bit his tongue. The kitchen complied with a bit of rice on the plate. I was impressed. Tue Jul 30 08:38:33 -0700 2002 1571646 0 Danna 2 1571664 Isn't the great Alain Ducasse already onto this idea at his "Spoons"(?) restaurants in France? I think they have a complete mix-and-match menu. Tue Jul 30 10:19:07 -0700 2002 1571646 0 Chili 2 1571731 Ditto. Sometimes the choice of my entree is dictated by the sides that come along with it. The entree is merely a bonus. Tue Jul 30 19:35:27 -0700 2002 1571646 0 Can 1 1571652 I just wanted to register an objection to #6, the "You guys" complaint. I have seen people get offended by "you guys", but I fail to understand. It's simply folk vernacular and to be offended by that smacks of snobbery. A more legitimate complaint would be waiters/waitresses who mumble or don't really know the English language. Scott Tue Jul 30 08:18:34 -0700 2002 1571591 0 bunnyr 2 1571661 In my waitressing experience, a friendly compromise on this phrase has been "You folks". Nobody ever seemed to get offended by that, and it sounded a heck of a lot nicer than "You guys", or, as was more common in my neck of the woods, "Youse" (As in "Are youse doin' OK?", to which the only proper response is "Yes, Wese doin' fine", even though nobody ever gets it.) Tue Jul 30 10:07:41 -0700 2002 1571652 0 Chris VR 3 1571812 "you" is singular, "youse" is plural. Therefore the correct answer to "Are youse doin' OK?", is in fact "Yes, We're doin' fine". Wed Jul 31 15:31:27 -0700 2002 1571661 0 ironmom 4 1571833 Nope, the correct answer to a question that mangles the English language by utilizing the word "youse" is one that similarly mangles it, therefore: "We's is doin' fine". As I said, nobody ever gets it but it makes me feel better to say it. Wed Jul 31 17:56:00 -0700 2002 1571812 0 Chris VR 5 1571876 (random pedantry ahead) Actually, "youse" (also spelled "yous") is very common in New York and is an analogue to the Southern "y'all" (or, if you insist, "all y'all"). Thus, "How yous doin'?" is actually "How're yous doing?" (remember, accents in New York tend to drop "R" sounds, so they can migrate to Texas, pupate, and come out in odd places like "erl well"), to which the answer is, "mumble", because waitstaff always wait to ask you if you're doing OK until your mouth is full so you can't complain without looking like a total slob. Thu Aug 01 11:20:02 -0700 2002 1571833 0 PRSMDave 6 1571879 And let us not leave out Western Pennsylvania's charming coloquialisms, such as "Y'uns know whatch'uns want?" "Y'uns" being a contraction of "You ones," of course. In order for this line to be properly delivered by a waiter, it must be preceded by a crack of gum. Thu Aug 01 11:35:31 -0700 2002 1571876 0 Deenso 7 1571897 So where in Western PA does the "Yins" line start? I've heard that quite often while visiting hubby's family in Pittsburgh. Thu Aug 01 13:27:01 -0700 2002 1571879 0 Chris VR 8 1571907 Well, maybe I spelled it wrong. "Yuns" or "Yins". Same difference when you come from McKeesport. Thu Aug 01 14:50:02 -0700 2002 1571897 0 Deenso 9 1571912 Ah, gotcha. I never knew what Yins was supposed to be short for- thanks for clearing it up! Thu Aug 01 16:31:55 -0700 2002 1571907 0 Chris VR 8 1571950 Since yunz're askin, the appended link: Link: http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/PennaDialMap.html Thu Aug 01 23:02:28 -0700 2002 1571897 0 Shepherd B. Goode 6 1571888 More pedantry: In Baltimore (Bawlamer), Philly, Delaware and most of Ireland, "youse" sounds more like "yuz" as in, "T'hell w'the lottayuz" or "Waddayuz g'na have?". Thu Aug 01 12:35:15 -0700 2002 1571876 0 flavrmeistr 6 1571896 Oh yeah, grew up on Long Island, so I'm well acquainted with youse as a part of the local dialect, as well as the disappearance of the R (close, but not the same way the R goes away up here in Boston). But youse and ain't are two words that just drive this English major nuts. Thu Aug 01 13:25:02 -0700 2002 1571876 0 Chris VR 7 1571986 Don't you mean "lung gyland"? Fri Aug 02 14:46:35 -0700 2002 1571896 0 JIm H. 2 1571667 I know we're out of NYC when I hear the enthusiastic "you guys" ten times per meal. Is this the '00s version of "I'm your waiter and my name is Billy" perkiness? Very frat-boy, baseball hat with logo, polo shirt with logo, chain restaurant behavior. Possibly the business version of "Duuude"? Tue Jul 30 10:23:56 -0700 2002 1571652 0 K. McB. 1 1571655 #1 Patrons with children who seem to think it's the wait staff's job to keep and eye on them. I've been in restaurants where children have run around chasing each other and just about knocking people over in the process. One elderly lady I just knew was going over the railing as a rude little boy barreled past her to catch up with his sister and blatantly tried to push her out of the way because he couldn't get passed her going down the little ramp. #2 On the same children rant as above, people who feel it is perfectly OK to put the baby still strapped in its carrier on the table while dining. I've even seen women go so far as to change the diaper on the table! And as for breast feeding, as long as it's under a cloth, shirt, or whatever fine. The bathroom is probably a more appropriate place. #3 Wait staff who, especially when it's slow or between meals, feel that it's perfectly OK to sit at the bar and watch TV or have a chat, stand in the corner with other staff and chat, disappear for a smoke break, or whatever. I end of having to bother a different waiter(ess) just to get some service, or go looking for my waiter(ess) so I can get my check. #4 Tables too close. Enough said. #5 Wait staff who pick up the bill and your cash and disappear. Just as bad is a waiter(ess) who asks me if I want change or not when the pick up the money. Don't assume all that green is yours! I personally expect a "I'll be right back with your change," response and then I can tell you if you can keep it or not. I had a lady who literally picked up the money, said "Thank you, have a nice day" with the assumption she was about to get a $30 tip from a $20 dollar meal (I gave her a $50)! #6 The main course showing up before I've had time to eat my appetizer, soup, or salad. And, if the food does come out too soon, don't start clearing away the food already there unless I say so. #7 The overly forgetful wait staff. I can see if you are covering more tables than you should; otherwise please remember who ordered what, and that I ordered a drink sometime ago. If you don't think you can remember, please write the order down. If I said, no mushrooms, I mean no mushrooms! #8 Ridiculously high corking fees should I bring in my own wine. You don't charge me if I just want a glass of water (not the bottles stuff either), so what's up? #9 Food and drinks just about thrown on the table by apathetic waiter(ess) or server. I'm sorry you'd rather be somewhere else, but don't you dare take it out on me or my food. #10 On the same note, drink glasses filled so full that there is no way the server can get it on the table without spilling it. Now either the table is wet, I'm wet, my food is wet, or all three. #11 A waiter(ess) or server who has a finger or the cuff of their sleeve in my food. Yuck!!!! #12 Last one, a waiter(ess) or server who, as they are putting my plate down, picks up the french fry- carrot- asparagus- whatever and puts it back on my plate. OK, I feel better now. Tue Jul 30 09:07:51 -0700 2002 1571591 0 SisterT 1 1571660 How about the huge plates with 4 - 6 inches of selvedge on the edges on one of those small tables? there is no room for anything! And when I order a salad as a entree, the waitron wants to squeeze it on the table with the appetizer! peace, jill Tue Jul 30 09:54:13 -0700 2002 1571591 0 jill 1 1571662 I've just read all the peeves so far in this thread, and I believe that there's the need for this secondary thread. I think some of you get annoyed way too easily, so I'm going to vent. "you guys" - I have mentioned somewhere else that this is simply folk vernacular; why is this a problem?? "I hate drinks with half-melted ice in them. Either keep the ice frozen or replace it when it melts." Keep the ice frozen?? Excuse me??! And then there's all these other whines about hosts/hostesses and waitresses/waiters. Hello!! These are not exactly the highest paid employees on earth though some of you obviously think so. I couldn't believe when somebody actually said "Do not refill my iced tea, my coffee, or my hot tea when it's halfway down the cup. It ruins the sweetness factor." Good grief, are we snobs or what??! What happened to "No thank you"? It took me a few times (because I'm really dense I guess), but I found that service improves when you are genuinely as nice and helpful to your server as he/she is to you. To expect a waitress/waiter to know every wine in the house is completely unrealistic; I don't care how expensive the wine and meal is. Perhaps you can avoid the "overly apologetic waitperson" by being a bit more helpful and communicative yourself. And what's this hassle with "yummy noises"? Somebody even went as far as to bring up Sally's fake orgasm from the film "When Harry Met Sally". Man, can't friends express their pleasure for a good meal? As a fellow diner, I have to tell you that one of my annoyances is other diners taking up a server's time making petty demands and complaints while other customers are forced to wait. (One particularly annoying instance was when a customer sent a waiter back at least three times because the customer's coffee wasn't hot enough. Sheesh!) It appears that I now know who some of you are. Thanks for letting me vent. Scott Tue Jul 30 10:09:05 -0700 2002 1571591 0 bunnyr 2 1571666 Thanks for your rant--I second your emotion...It's one thing to expect service to be efficient and smooth, and in an expensive place you should certainly expect graciousness and knowledgeability, but a server can't possibly address every individual need. I thought chowhounds were supposed to be about the food! And no, I don't want to get into another kids/no kids flame war, but the bathroom is not a more appropriate place to breastfeed. I wouldn't take my dinner into a bathroom. Tue Jul 30 10:23:31 -0700 2002 1571662 0 Redbone 3 1571674 Funny thread, this one. (I mean the entire thread, not this particular course it took.) I just wanted to second your breast feeding remark. -- I don't think it's the 'meal' a mother feeds a child that upsets other diners. We seem, in this country (U.S.) anyway, to have a problem with breasts. Women are even shunned in shopping malls when breast feeding. Sick as it is, it is, but I too don't agree with it. Hello. It is ONLY a breast, people. Tue Jul 30 11:05:05 -0700 2002 1571666 0 TR 4 1571680 Hmm, tit for tot, as it were. Tue Jul 30 11:34:30 -0700 2002 1571674 0 WLA 5 1571686 I was waiting for a male reply to my post. Thanks both of you (WLA and chris). It gave me a laugh.. (a good one). Tue Jul 30 11:50:09 -0700 2002 1571680 0 TR 6 1571691 I can never resist the urge to pun, and pun again. Actually I have no problem with women breast feeding their children wherever and whenever they so desire. My wife on the other hand is the first one to mutter something negative about the practice. Go figure. Tue Jul 30 12:27:13 -0700 2002 1571686 0 WLA 7 1571754 From my experience, women usually are the ones most upset by the practice. I won't attempt to fathom why men aren't so and will leave that up to the male gender. But I think in the case of some women it's modesty, or a distaste for watching their SO's look at another women's breast or watching the intimate bonding with the child. Maybe a combo of all of that? Who knows, is right. Wed Jul 31 00:59:25 -0700 2002 1571691 0 TR 8 1571773 I think it's the double standard for bare breast visibility that's annoying to us non-breastfeeders. People don't go topless to restaurants here, and any obvious display of breasts (see-through shirts, extremely low necklines) is frowned upon as "inappropriate". However, when it's breastfeeding, it's suddenly OK to take it all out. I mean, you might as well say "come on people, it's only someone's bare ass." I don't object to discreet breastfeeding but it is DISTRACTING when it happens at one's table. Wed Jul 31 11:00:54 -0700 2002 1571754 0 Katerina 9 1571837 Katerina - hi and thanks. I never looked at it that way, but and even though I never had the opportunity to breastfeed my two children, I still can't. To be completely logical/techincal -- Upon breastfeeding and in the majority of cases, one's breast is being used to deliver the sole/main source of nutrition to another human being. If I cannot presently use my breast(s) in the same way,, I don't feel discriminated against in our society, or in one where bare breasts aren't generally accepted in public places. As per bare backsides --- There are health concerns to be considered should we all run (& sit) around like that. So I can't compare the two or even substitute bare bottoms for bare breasts. My experiences might be different from yours. For myself, it has taken a hard look to even notice another woman was breatfeeding instead of simply cradling her child. Hardly had they taken it all out. And upon noticing, I can't see why it would distract me. It never had. I'd think it would distract the mother doing the feeding, especially if she had to stop eating her dinner in a restaurant to feed her child. Wed Jul 31 18:24:51 -0700 2002 1571773 0 TR 6 1571744 I have to admit when I started this thread that this was one direction I didn't expect it to take! lol Scott Tue Jul 30 23:06:09 -0700 2002 1571686 0 bunnyr 7 1571755 This board and the not about food one are often full of surprises. :) Wed Jul 31 01:00:10 -0700 2002 1571744 0 TR 4 1571681 Just to give voice to the other side, let me say that I have No Problem with breasts! Tue Jul 30 11:35:28 -0700 2002 1571674 0 chris o 3 1571675 We absolutely do not get annoyed too easily. Every peeve I've read here is an issue of common, everyday manners that no one should disrespect. Personally, I think it's because we've become so lackadaisical as dining patrons that service in restaurants as slipped so far. Unfortunately, too many times do I see diners not honoring reservations, dressing inappropriately, using terribly poor table manners, being rude to service people, complaining that something is not what they expected when they didn't bother to ask, becoming upset when their requests simply can not be honored (if a meat stock is used in the soup, there is nothing the chef can do), stacking dirty plates on their table, and all too frequently not being offended by the auctioning of dishes, the clearing of plates while people are still eating, and the arrival of an entree while appetizers are still being enjoyed. Remarkably, I now see these types of things even at our very best restaurants in Washington, D.C. We do not get annoyed too easily. In fact, in general, we do not get annoyed enough. And it is because we do not get annoyed enough that restaurants don't bother to correct these faults. It is our job to tell restaurant owners/managers that these things are important to our dining experience. Imortant enough that they should take TWO minuutes to tell a new busboy not to clear plates while people are stilll eating! I was in our finest seafood restaurant for lunch yesterday and there was a container of cleaning solution on the pass-thru window in clear view. To my astonishment, it remained there until I mentioned in to the manager on my way out. He seemed surprised that I would care! Tue Jul 30 11:06:58 -0700 2002 1571666 0 Pappy 4 1571683 See, I've lived my whole life without ever even knowing there was something wrong with getting the dirty dishes off the table as they become done. Just concentrate on making the food taste good, the rest I could care less about. Tue Jul 30 11:42:17 -0700 2002 1571675 0 chris o 5 1571690 You must not have had any particularly slow eaters in your family growing up. The plate clearing issue is one that deeply divides the dining community. It used to be, just over a generation ago, that waiting to clear was a fairly ironclad norm of service for fine dining (deriving, of course, from the norms for service at home). It was considered very rude to violate the norm. Very rude. And this was a norm that protected people like my mother from feeling rushed as she ate her meal. Over the past generation, the norm has degraded into chaos, for a variety of reasons I won't go into. Now, many people are so accustomed to clearing-as-you-go, they think that is the norm and feel it is rude if you don't do that! But not everyone has conceded the chaos, and there are many who still expect the older norm to be abided by. Servers are in a hopeless situation on this one. If they are smart, and if there appears to be a host for the table (often, of course, there isn't anymore), they can inquire what the host's preference on this is. Otherwise, someone should politely inform the waiter. Tue Jul 30 12:18:01 -0700 2002 1571683 0 Karl S. 6 1571713 I agree, I hate it when people remove one diners plates when the other diners at the table are not finished. It is rude and has now become very common. What I find even worse, and it happens all the time in NY at restaurants that are very busy, is when the bus boy is lurking to take your empty plate -as you are still eating. And if you put the fork down for a second, FOR A SECOND, they swoop down to take your plate - even when its not finished! I have had to hold my fork over my food, while I am talking to dissuade the bus boy from taking my plate. It is unbelievable. Tue Jul 30 16:52:49 -0700 2002 1571690 0 Lulu 7 1571737 Members of my family have a patented glare that we use in such situations. It reduces the temperature of the room to absolute zero in a second, and miscreant restaurant staff to pillars of salt, so I am told.... Non-verbal communication can be more effective, I guess. Tue Jul 30 21:18:02 -0700 2002 1571713 0 Karl S. 6 1571813 I am always the fastest eater at any table, and I detest having to stare at my dirty dishes, carefully sitting way back from the table to keep my hair from falling into the plate, while waiting for the other diners to finish their food. Wed Jul 31 15:53:16 -0700 2002 1571690 0 ironmom 2 1571676 BRAVO. and THANK YOU. Summed it up nicely. I was thinking the same thing... Tue Jul 30 11:16:46 -0700 2002 1571662 0 Jaylea 2 1571689 I think maybe you misunderstood some of my rants, or perhaps I wasn't clear. The frozen ice - I'm not talking about ice that was previously frozen melting in my drink - that happens, it's called physics. No, I'm talking about when the ice is in its chest or cooler or whatever and has been allowed to melt, so when the barkeep puts a scoop of ice in your glass, it's already half water. This is actually very common in Los Angeles. If they fill up your glass with ice and its attendant meltwater, they can put less alcohol and mixer in, and thus save themselves money. Sometimes it's a-purpose, sometimes it ain't. Reputable (and some less-than-reputable, such as the one I worked at) restaurants and bars change their ice two to four times a night. This is why, in some places, you can go into the men's bathroom and there is ice in the urinals. The iced-tea refill thing. Yes, I could just say "no, thank you," except for the times (most of them) where my reflexes are not quick enough. Many places ask first, which I think is a good idea. "More iced tea, sir?" "No thank you, I'm still working on this one." And why is it unrealistic to expect someone - I did not say every waiter and waitress - to know every wine in the house? Presumably someone tasted and ordered the wine in, where is that person? I would rather hear, "I don't know, I'm sorry," than a wild guess, which is unfortunately what usually happens. Finally, the vegetarian thing. Of course they're not going to miraculously whip up a batch of fresh soup or sauce without the meat in it. That's unrealistic and nobody expects them to. What I was ranting about is when we ask if there is meat stock in the sauce and they LIE about it. ("Oh, no, it's vegetarian," and then when he tastes the sauce and it's got Essence of Dead Cow in it, he finds out from the kitchen staff that it does indeed have beef stock or pork fat or something in it.) It's enough to know, that way one can avoid it. There is NEVER an excuse for a waitperson who outright lies, even from ignorance. If you don't know, go find out. "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well." I have to be polite and detail-oriented, whether I'm 'on the clock' (and being paid for the work I bill) or not. It's not the best-paid job in the world. That's not an excuse. I can't speak for other people, but I cook extremely well. In a lot of cases, I can make the food at home. I go to a restaurant to be served the food. Thus, service is very important to me. The food is, of course, most important - a restaurant with great service and crappy food will feature no smiling visage of PRSMDave - but a restaurant with great food and crappy service will also not feature that smiling visage. (Note - there are varying levels of service. I don't expect the white-glove treatment at Art's Deli because, well, it's a deli. But they have iced tea spoons and they keep their ice frozen. I don't expect much service at all at Taconazo, because all they do is cook and call your number - but they can tell you which beer is best.) You're right, though, I am a snob. I will absolutely go to the best places, but then I expect the service to be on par with the prices. When it's not, I complain to the management. If you want to put up with it, more power to you, just ignore me. Tue Jul 30 12:10:41 -0700 2002 1571662 0 PRSMDave 2 1571705 The Grubber would agree with your comments with the following caveats: 1. These are annoyances, not knockout punches, unrelated to the food itself. No one of them—unless truly egregious—would be cause to never return, but cumulatively, perhaps. If a restaurant cares so little for their paying customers that they don’t bother to train their staff in service and courtesy, then maybe the customers shouldn’t care all that much about the restaurant. 2. Obviously, the level of annoyance varies with the nature of the restaurant. What annoys us at Le Bernardin or the French Laundry may not annoy us at the Circus Circus Breakfast Buffet or Juan’s International House of Borscht. In general, Mr Grub’s annoyances apply to full-serve restaurants with removable tablecloths, whose only menu is not nailed to the wall. 3. Annoyances created by fellow diners is the subject of YA list. PS “You guys” does truly offend. Mike Tyson & Charlie Sheen are “guys.” Mme Grubbe & JLo are not. Tue Jul 30 14:30:12 -0700 2002 1571662 0 Mr Grub 3 1571735 A friend of mine gets annoyed at waitstaff who introduce themselves, so a couple of weeks ago when the very perky waitress said "Hi, I'm Julie, and I'll be your server..." He responded with "Hi, this is Marti and I'm Aaron, and we'll be your customers". Tue Jul 30 20:30:26 -0700 2002 1571705 0 mw 2 1571708 Perhaps you misunderstood my peeve about the 'yummy noises'. These are not discrete little 'mmms', these are all out, freakish yelps of orgasmic delight. They are really inappropriate in a public setting, and even the perpetrator's husband complains--out of his wife's earshot--about them. It seems that people are taking this post a bit more seriously than is truly warranted. I think we are all adult enough to recognize that what might be unacceptable at Chez Panisse is expected at Dennys, and that this posting had more to do with the former than the latter. And isn't part of the point of this board that we can express our views without being shot down for elitism or snobism? Tue Jul 30 14:50:47 -0700 2002 1571662 0 Witness Protection Program 3 1571729 Amen! This wasn't suppose to be a b*tching session. Just because certain things bother me (or any other 'hounder) doesn't mean I'm trying to force my views on anyone else. No, I don't agree with everyone's annoyances but I let everyone have their say. I agree that loud outbursts of delight nearing orgasmic are out of place in a nice restaurant. Heck, I've "mmm, oh this is good" many times myself. Just not loud enough to inform the whole restaurant. If a woman wants to breastfeed at the table, fine. It's her choice. For me, I don't want to have to face someone's boob while I try to eat. If that does something for you, knock yourself out. And yes, I've turn my seat and such. I have not been so rude as to tell her to hightail it to the bathroom. Yes, wait staff and servers are underpaid but they are doing a job. They should be courteous and professional regardless of the establishment. I worked at Roy Roger's in high school and always tried my best to be a good cashier/server. Especially when I had loud mouth, complaining, and many times just downright rude patrons. Apparently the work ethic of today's employees have gone out the window. Oh great! Now you've got me doing it! Back to fun food talk... Tue Jul 30 19:14:47 -0700 2002 1571708 0 SisterT 1 1571663 I can't belive nobody's hit on my pet peeves yet: 1) Auctioning your food. When I order, I expect the waitron to use a system (preferably writing it down) to remember who gets what. When they come to the food with our entrees (even when there is only two of us) and ask inquiringly "Red Snapper? Filet Mignon? Mushroom Ravioli?", it really lowers my perception of the place, and makes me less likely to come back. 2) Expecting customers to get their own food. "Careful, it's hot", a waitron says as they pass the food to you at eye level, expecting you to take this hot plate from them and set it on front of you. Sorry, it's not my fault if a restaurant plans their tables such that the waitron can't easily get to where it's easiest to place the plate in front of me. I'm not being picky about serving from the correct side of me, I just want them to put the plate of food in front of me- I don't think that's too much to ask. I plan to pay (tip) them to do their job, and if I have to do it for them, it comes out of their pay (tip). 3) Expecting the customer to bus their table. If you bring me the entree and try to pass it to me as my appetizer/soup/salad plate is still in front of me, don't be surprised if I give you a blank look and continue my conversation with my dining companions, failing to either pass you the used plate or take the food from you. It's YOUR job to make sure the table is clear BEFORE you bring my my food. Not mine. And again, it's YOUR job to put my food on the table, not mine. If there's no room for you to do that, then it's your problem, not mine. Boy don't I sound like a bitch?! I guess it's because I've waitressed, and know how things can/should be done, and how little effort it takes to get it right. I'm also a big tipper- if you get the basics right. Tue Jul 30 10:18:20 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Chris VR 2 1571669 Now that I think of it, one last annoyance. At Longhi's, one of Maui's most venerable restaurants in Lahaina, they don't have a written menu. So an imported southern California waitperson comes to your table with the typical - "Aloha, have you been here before shtick". Then they proceed to tell you they have a verbal menu and they can serve fish with any sauce you want, pasta with lots of sauces, yada, yada, yada. Personally, I want the liberty to peruse a menu and not have a waitperson staring me down to order, while I try to remember all that they blurted out. Actually, I find the selection process off a menu part of the enjoyable experience of a restaurant. Especially when my wife asks me what I'm going to have, and I won't tell her so she doesn't order the same thing, so I can have a taste of her dinner. (run on sentence?) Probably! Tue Jul 30 10:31:56 -0700 2002 1571663 0 Ciaohound 3 1571988 Oh my god, what a bonus invitation to malicious fun! "I'm sorry, I didn't catch that last pasta one, could you run that by me again?" "OK, now, what was that you said about the ahi? No, before that..." "And, uh, what were the salad dressing options again?" "And, you said the radiatori came with what sauce? Sorry, I'm more of a visual kind of person..." Two adults and two kids, all doing that routine at once, would have to derange even the most hardened server, eventually. What could the people who run this place be thinking? (And I've got to assume it works better than it sounds, or they would have dumped it a long time ago.) Fri Aug 02 15:07:50 -0700 2002 1571669 0 Shepherd B. Goode 4 1571994 I don't know why they don't use the daily small blackboard technique...more popular in Europe than here. I really like the big blackboard placed in an obscure part of the room, with poor writing and light shining on an angle so you can hardly read it. Oh yes...and different colored chalk...to really confuse you. With computers and printers, there is no reason you can't get a daily special menu. Fri Aug 02 17:55:43 -0700 2002 1571988 0 Jim H. 5 1572005 I prefer the blackboard placed directly in front of the greeter's station, so that if one is for some reason seated promptly, one has no opportunity to study the specials, and can then engage the hapless server in the same verbal guerilla combat. Fri Aug 02 21:26:55 -0700 2002 1571994 0 Shepherd B. Goode 4 1572108 "Oh my god, what a bonus invitation to malicious fun!" What does everyone have against waiters and waitresses? 3/4 of these pet peeve posts (say that 4 times fast) deal with policies that are the restaurant's, but the hostility is being taken out on the waiters. These people are just doing a job - a difficult, thankless, usually not-very-lucritive one. Cut them some slack - and not just if they are amazing, world-class waiters. If you got paid moment-by-moment at the clients' discression, you might see things differently. I know I would - I teach Jr. High. Mon Aug 05 08:43:37 -0700 2002 1571988 0 fladd 2 1571682 Most things don't bother us when eating out, but I agree with your comment about busing your own table. It never ceases to amaze me that, when I still have my salad plate in front of me, the waitperson brings my entree and seems shocked that there is no place to put it. We are also big tippers for very good service - as all three of daughters helped put themselves through college by working as waitresses in this noble and demanding profession. P.S. My daughters are even bigger tippers! Thanks for listening. Tue Jul 30 11:37:05 -0700 2002 1571663 0 Donna - MI 1 1571700 In inexpensive restaurants with excellent food, I am willing to forgive just about anything. But I'm surprised that no one has mentioned my biggest annoyance. You're with a group of folks, you've finished the first bottle of wine with soup, appetizers, bread, whatever--and then, when the main course arrives you order another bottle to go with it. Now a good server should realize that you want the wine with the food and should be prompt at bringing it over. Instead, too often, the waitperson goes off, talks to other servers, maybe waits on another table etc. All this time you have to choose whether to start eating without the wine or let your food get cold. Of course, an attentive waitstaff would have already noticed that the first bottle was getting low or empty, and would have asked about which wine with the main course, before the entree shows up. But if they haven't, a reasonable quickness in bringing the second bottle is much appreciated. Tue Jul 30 13:36:51 -0700 2002 1571591 0 e.d. 1 1571701 About the most annoying thing that ever happened to me was in an upscale Mexican restaurant in LA where, after asking if I had been there before, and hearing no, the waiter proceeded to tell me what I would have and basically refused to let me know what else was on the menu, much less order something else. Apparently, on your first time you got item number one, second, item number two, etc. I am also annoyed by overly large plates, and even more so by overly large plates that have herbs/spices sprinkled on the rims as what? A garnish? An expression of how hip and trendy the kitchen is? I know it's petty, it just bugs me. Tue Jul 30 13:42:55 -0700 2002 1571591 0 annieb 2 1571816 My pet peeve is the overly large dessert plates sprinkled with cocoa to look like...dirt? Wed Jul 31 15:58:28 -0700 2002 1571701 0 ironmom 3 1571831 As in: "BAM! I just got crap on the cuffs of my new silk blouse!" It was a huge pet peeve of mine when I went to Emeril's restaurant in Vegas - stuff all over the edges of the plates waiting to get on your hand, sleeve, etc. Wed Jul 31 17:46:04 -0700 2002 1571816 0 Jill-O 1 1571714 1) Overly aggressive upselling. I know that upselling can be part of a waiter or waitresses job and I'm more than willing to listen and then say yes or no. However, I've been to restaurants where it was a continual refrain during the meal and it become intrusive! (This is really a problem with what appears to be a management decision, not the servers choice!) 2) In the same vein, making a customer uncomfortable because they don't want to order mixed drinks or wine. There are times when my husband and I want wine or mixed drinks with a meal and then there are times when we don't! (We are aware that not ordering alcohol reduces the bill and we usually make a point of leaving a very healthy tip). My husband and I had a waiter who kept insisting that we just couldn't have our main course without a bottle of wine - what he didn't know was that I was taking medicine that simply did not allow me to drink (and I didn't really think it was any of his business!). 3) Watching a cleaning rag being dropped on the floor and then used to wipe all of the table tops (yuck!). ElizabethC Tue Jul 30 16:55:45 -0700 2002 1571591 0 ElizabethC 2 1571730 Re:#1 I once lost a job in an upscale bar in an upscale hotel when my answer to the question, "What would you ask a patron if he/she ordered a vodka gimlet?" was, "would you like that up or on the rocks?" The correct answer was would you care for that with "upselling" brand vodka. Tue Jul 30 19:15:15 -0700 2002 1571714 0 Marilayne 2 1571743 > I don't think this is annoying. I think this is a crime! - at least I know it is in Massachusetts under the Serving Intoxicated Patrons Law. In any case, forcing alchohol on a customer is in very poor taste at the very least, and a possible jail term if the customer crashes on the road. Am I wrong about this? My opinion is that I'd run from any restaurant that tries to force me to order drinks. Scott Tue Jul 30 23:01:38 -0700 2002 1571714 0 bunnyr 2 1571817 My parents and I once went to a restaurant that had no tables available, and we had to wait in the bar. In order to occupy a table, rather than standing, we were required to purchase one alcoholic beverage per adult in the party, even though I was obviously 8 months pregnant at the time. Wed Jul 31 16:02:45 -0700 2002 1571714 0 ironmom 1 1571723 If the place is truly chowhound worthy, it would take a cluster bomb of major annoyances to dissuade me from returning. Salad fork for the entree? No problem. Cocktail too full/spillage? Who cares. "You Guys"? So what. Choice of side dishes? Bring it on! Delicious food is all that matters. That being said, I really don't like being seated next to the busboy station ;-) Tue Jul 30 18:27:45 -0700 2002 1571591 0 Aunt Bea 2 1571741 BRAVO! Tue Jul 30 22:11:17 -0700 2002 1571723 0 StriperGuy 2 1571742 I was going to respond to the many responses to my "now that's annoying! Are we being annoyed too easily" thread, but this message is better than anything I could come up with. Thanks for saving me the work!! Scott Tue Jul 30 22:41:33 -0700 2002 1571723 0 bunnyr 2 1571781 Well said! In fact many REALLY EXCELLENT Chinese and Korean places in LA almost pride themselves on indifferent service... I really wouldn't say bad, but let's just say atomsphere (usually very crowded and very loud) and service (sometimes food gets THROWN on the table, or requests have to be repeated several times) are perfunctory at best. On the upside, these places usually serve AMAZING, and I mean AMAZING food. So they are always crowded, and you really forget about everything else... The attitude of the restaurants seem to be, "You are here for the food, so enjoy it, don't worry about anything else"... Now I know there are some "high maintenance" people who just can't deal with that, and that's fine... I'm sure there are lots of places that have great food and perfect service, but do you really want to miss out on AMAZING food just because you can't/won't deal with some (in the big scheme of things, really minor) tertiary issues? Isn't finding AMAZING food, regardless of anything else, what chowhounding is all about? Oh and I should probably add, that most of these GREAT food, lousy atmosphere/service places have been in business for a LONG time and are VERY successful, so, as long as they focus on the food, it's all good... Wed Jul 31 13:08:50 -0700 2002 1571723 0 woo! 1 1571728 Haven't weeded through all the responses, but most of them I echo as well. But one of my pet peeves is that I am a minority, and most of my friends are a minority too and when we dine together, we always seem to be seated in the back by the restrooms, kitchen (major traffic area), or bus stations. Not sure if this is a conscious decision on the host's/hostess' part, but this has happened way too often to be a coincidence. Tue Jul 30 19:09:23 -0700 2002 1571591 0 anon