German vs French vs Japanese vs American Knife Manufacturers?

[SG]

I'm devastated after reading Dennison's post about the quality of current Sabatier knives compared to it's golden years. I have a set of Sabatier grand chef knives and have been researching additions to expand and improve my collection.

The most expensive I've seen online are the Japanese manufacturers ie. Masamoto, Aritsugu which go up to $2000+ for sushi knives with most averaging about $200 - $400. I have not seen any European / American manufacturers exceed $200. Are these Japanese knives that much better?

What are your thoughts about German (Henkel, Wustof, Messer etc) vs French (Sabatier, Thier Issard etc) vs Japanese (Masamoto, Aritsugu, Suisin, Global, Nenox etc) vs American Knife manufacturers (Lamson Sharp, can't think of any others)? ie steel quality, manufacturing processses etc.

Thanks in advance

[Jim H.]

The Japan Woodworker in Alameda, CA has a beautiful selection of Japanese knives at very good prices. Web site at japanwoodworker.com. I have many woodworking tools from them, and four or five knives. The Samurai sword-making technique makes for a great knife.

[Dennison]

“Are these Japanese knives that much better?”

Well, SG, in the world of artisan crafts, particularly Japanese artisan crafts, the value of items can sometimes take your breath away, as you’ve noticed in the specific case of the handcrafted Masamoto beauties. Many skilled Japanese artisans and craftsmen have been designated Living National Treasures and represent an art that is sadly dying out in favor of mass production. The question of worth is relative – for instance, a single sheet of paper made by hand in the studio of a skilled papermaker can sell here in the States for upwards of $50. For the right usage and in the right context, it’s a reasonable cost, but for the vast majority it’s an absurdly high amount. The same goes for kitchen knives.

Many questions must be answered when looking for the knife that is perfect for you. What kind of prep work do you do when cooking your meals? Do you work primarily with raw fish? Many long Japanese blades with a single-sided bevel are intended to create thin and razor-clean slices from a whole fish. If this is something you rarely if ever do, then those particular blades will be all but useless for you. My mother owns one knife – a workhorse Dexter Chinese cleaver that is commonly available for around twenty bucks. Does absolutely everything she needs it to do, including using the butt end of the handle to tenderize meat, and the flat edge of the blade as an impromptu spatula to transfer chopped food to the wok. Are you a slicer or a chopper? German knives (Wusthof) tend to be curved and are better suited to those who plant the tip of their chefs knife on the board and rock the handle up and down to chop. The French Sabatier shape is much straighter and I find it’s better used by drawing the blade toward you in a slicing motion. Japanese santoku shapes are rapidly becoming one of the more popular shapes on the market – I’m a huge fan particularly of the Kasumi santoku. It’s a great all-purpose knife that performs beautifully on veggies and meat.

How much maintenance are you willing to put in for your knives? Will you hone your knife with each use? Will you handwash? Do you feel that the appearance is a primary factor? Carbon steel blades will discolor with use and require frequent sharpening, but they will reward those with the patience to care for them properly and care about performance rather than appearance. Besides the older Sabatiers that I love, I highly recommend a visit to www.wildfirecutlery.com for a look at some artisan-crafted carbon knives. My favorite there is the Thai Cleaver.

Most home cooks would do well to steer clear of carbon blades and just stick with a high-carbon stainless blade. The standby of most culinary schools are still the tried-and-true-if-clunky F. Dicks, and these can be had for much less than the yuppie brands. A current favorite of many are the Globals, which are very lightweight and wickedly sharp. Be forewarned that they have a high Rockwell hardness rating so may not be the easiest blades to sharpen, but they do hold their edge quite well and are quite good investments if you like their feel. A lot of vague info, I know, sorry, but there really is no single "best" knife for everyone. Feel free to pose specific questions so that we can offer more suggestions.

[Westy]

Hi,
I have had one of the aforementioned Dexter cleavers since I read Barbara Tropp's excellent Chinese Cooking. I bought it about a year ago and it is every bit as practical as she promised. It smashes garlic, chops through smaller bones (I wouldn't try it on short ribs, but it is very sturdy), and keeps and edge very well. The deep blade also serves well as a spatula. My one criticism is the somewhat slippery (and slightly hard to clean) wood handle. A great kitchen investment, though.
Regards,
Matt

[Stanley Stephan]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!!!

I would like to buy a nice set of knives and your post gave me a lot to think about.

I'm no cook, but I realize something like knives and pots and pans last longer in your life that your SO.

I use two knives, for the most part. A little knife that is perfect for decapitating fruit like strawberries that I found at Sur la Table. And a serrated knife that I use for practically everything else. It is such low quality that I am even embarrassed to get is sharpened.

Your post gave me a lot to consider in my quest to find a knives to spend the rest of my life with.

[SG]

I'm actually looking to expand my collection to include the following:

- 30 cm yanagi & japanese deba , what is the major differences between Masamoto vs Aritsugu vs Suisin vs Nenox vs Global vs any other notable manufacturers? I know I'm not ready to pay for a honyaki, is there a noticeable difference in performance for hongasumi as opposed to kasumi? Think the price difference in Masamoto's lineup is about $100.

- 10-12" chef's knife, I'm leaning towards the German stlye, F Dick vs Messermeister vs any others?

- boning / filet knife & butcher's cleaver & steel & bread knife - don't know of any manufacturers famous for these styles.

- chinese cleaver - will definitely check out wildfire

- santoku - any recommendations

I know this is overkill but I'm just totally intrigued with knives and swords.

My preference is to stay away from the wusthofs and henkels and gear more towards the lesser known manufacturers. Particularly one's using carbon steel and still employ traditional forging methods. Basically purchasing knives I will thoroughly enjoy using and owning for a lifetime.

I have not constraints when it comes to maintenance and currently hone probably once every 1 - 2 weeks.

[Dennison]

ok, SG, now I've got a much better sense of what you're looking for. As for "overkill", this site exists so that we can discuss what many others would consider overkill! I'm also totally intrigued with knives and have the following suggestions for you based on your specific requirements.

A few months back, someone calling himself Side Pork dropped in to deliver a couple of tremendously informative posts on knives, with some great advice regarding japanese makers. If near or in NYC, definitely drop by Korin to handle them yourself before you buy anything. Here are those links:
http://www.chowhound.com/boards/general/messages/26558.html
http://www.chowhound.com/boards/gener...

For the large chefs knife, you may want to check out ebay. There's a seller named ralph1396 who really knows his knives and has a huge collection. In the past, he's listed many very nice older carbon blades originally intended for the pro market. If you get in touch with him, he'll tell you all about the current state of the knife industry -- stuff like how none of the large manufacturers have used virgin steel from iron ore since the late 80s in favor of recycled steel, which doesn't have the same functionality.

For your chinese cleaver needs, look at the wide thai cleaver from wildfire cutlery on the high end, consider the Dexter/Russell Harrington as a middle option, and take yer pick of all sorts of cheaper options for less than ten bucks, available in any chinatown -- look at wokshop.com for a representative sample.

The santoku I really like is the Kasumi (admittedly because it's one of the most beautiful blades on the market with the Damascus pattern, but the round hocho handle also fits my grip perfectly), but you may want to look at one of the lesser known Japanese brands. I enthusiastically second Jim H.'s great tip about the Japan Woodworker -- have them send you a catalog, it's truly droolworthy and their prices are great.

Definitely consider getting a Marty the Knife man tool and an F Dick steel is a must have -- use the steel everytime you use your knives. One last thing to consider are those wall-mounted magnetic knife holders -- great way to showcase your beautiful blades and keep them easily accessible, but beware if you've got little kids or large animals in your kitchen! Hope this all helps a bit.

[FED]

what a great, informative post. thanks! do you have any recommendations for slicers (such as for turkey, roast beef, etc.)? i've got 2 or 3 of them, but none seem to work as well as i'd like.

[Dennison]

Well, FED, you bring up an interesting issue -- I'm really not a guy who normally cooks a lot of larger items that need slicing, so I make do with a vintage carbon Sabatier 9-in slicer and a fairly cheap serrated 11-in bread knife (stamped not forged, and I don't remember who the maker is). I'm really pleased with the edge that the Sabatier takes -- I can get it even sharper than my Globals. I'd be interested in hearing anyone's opinions about slicing knives in general -- maybe if you do a LOT of slicing you could justify the cost of a really nice one, but the products of my kitchen just don't warrant it.

[SG]

picked up a forged 12" granton style lamson sharp slicer from one of amazon's closeout sale last year.

Those granton style indentations definitely make a difference, glides through the meat much more effortlessly.

Link: http://www.swissarmybrands.com/acb/sh...

[rerem]

My Chinese Cleaver is a Lamson and I like it. However-I'd used a Granton Forschner a lot on a job I had-was the guy who did the slicing at all the buffet + banquets,and I find now that I can get a steeper edge on their Non-Granton version.which SEEMS to be a thinner blade. I just used it to slice up a sourdough loaf. Buttered sourdough and a Redtail Ale is a favorite late snack. as the slicer is not serrated it works best slicing a crusty loaf bottom side up. Once it bites through the crust it cuts clean and quick without the crumbs a serrated makes or the crushing a heavier blade does. Pretty cool.

I do not feel most folks really have a practical "need" for any $200 knife. Most pro cooks usually use a knife that costs less than $80,and on average-quite a bit less.

Tojiro has a line of knives that---well sharpened are VERY nice. I worked with a cook who had one. It was dull...not near as sharp as my 10" Forschner despite costing 3x more and having harder steel. I sharpened it for him and it was pretty impressive. No doubt,if you want to spend 3x the price of a Tojiro..you can get a bit sharper. CAN.....if you also invest in the tools and learning time to be able to sharpen it to it's best.

A GOOD knife will tell you what it likes. You can feel it,even hear it. If you ever try fly fishing it's a difficult skill...but I found out that a GOOD rod and line will TEACH you how.

The heart and soul of a premium knife is the steel. A good place to start is a steel called VG-10 or V-Gold. Many Japanese knives have a VG-10 core,most Shun's are VG-10,and at least a dozen other makers have at least one VG-10 line. There are some solid VG-10 knives but usually they are clad with a realatively soft but tough stainless,sometimes many layers with a damascus pattern. Like any steel there's some range of options for heat treat and tempering so a VG-10 blade can have a Rockwell hardness that ranges from 58 to 63 with 60 typical.
The high Rockwell will be harder,the lower number will be tougher. Hard? It can take the max edge and retain it-but is a bit brittle (relatively) and can chip. Very small micro chips may be barely visible but create drag and make the edge feel less sharp.
Tough implies more flex,more ability to take some impact. A knife used for force/power/impact has to be TOUGH. There are Powder steels that can have a max hardness of 70. the same formula can be processes to a hardness of 62. At 62 you could almost use it as a hammer. at 70 if you drop it on the floor it might crack. Used just for low impact slicing a blade with a 70 hardness can-potentially be sharpened beyond what you think is even possible. For general use, tempered /toughened to about 64-65 it's more practical. I'm not even aware of anyone making a knife harder than a 66,aside from ceramic blades. As special steels approach the hardness of ceramics...the trade offs are the same. They are brittle,can chip, are a bear to sharpen and even demand special methods to sharpen.

Back to the point...VG 10 is sort of the sweet spot,a good balance of hard and tough and not too high $.

For more $....Powder Metalurgy steels are now the high tech cutting edge. ZDP 189 and Cowry X are a couple of Japanese versions while Crucible CPM is comparable and American. Henckel's Twin Cermax uses a very hard Powder steel that's -so far- their private blend while Shun has the elite line with their powder steel.

Generally a high end stainless adds Vanadium ,Moly,and often Tungsten. VG-10 also has Cobalt. These added minerals allow a higher hardness AND high toughness with corrosion resistance.
Powder steels go a bit further. They can have finer carbide molecules and more hardness while still being tough enough. That extra hardness and fine carbide particles only matter if you have the gear and skills to be VERY good at sharpening. Most people won't ever have the sharpening skills to full maximize a vg-10 blade. Spending an extra $150+ for a Cowry X blade is thus pointless until one can get the full potential of a good VG 10.

[SG]

Thanks to all for your input and Dennison for those links, somehow I missed them when they were posted earlier in the year.

By the way I just received my Suisin Ninohko Honesuki carbon steel 5.9" knife today from Korin and all can say is WOW! My comparable 6" Sabatier grand chef bread/utility knife is just simply blown away by it, the weight (almost double, in fact almost as heavy as my 8" chef!!), balance and just the overall feel. Definitely worth a look at prices comparable to dept store wusthof and henkel lines.

Now to continue with the rest on my wish list...

[Joe H.]

Are you familiar with the German manufacturer Pott? The tiny company is in Solingen yet produces an exquisite, unique line whose hideous expense matches the most extreme of the Japanese. Below is a link to their website. Unfortunately the complete line is only sold in Germany with a few additional European countries carring odds and ends. However, there are some sources that will ship their knives to the U. S. such as Borgermann in Dusseldorf. 011-49-02-11 13 12 55 (the owner speaks fluent English in this incredible German 6th generation shop, the finest of any I have ever been in. They carry the complete line of all German manufactuers including Mertens. Because you are buying direct from Germany the price is about 60% of the American price for Wustof, Henckels and others sold here).

I have their complete line as well as many of the Japanese and prefer their's for my purposes. The handle has a heavier feel which, allows the finest chef's knife I have ever used. Pott has absolutely nothing in common with any other German manufactuer even Carl Mertens.

The link to their website is below.

Link: http://www.POTT-BESTECKE.DE

[Pat Hammond]

As Dennison suggested, Morty the Knife Man's shapener is a must-have for maintaining your knives. I'll attach a link to information about it, and how to order:

Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/22/c...

[Jim H.]

You might want to consider a Japanese wet stone...or if you are REALLY a knife nut, the electric rotating wet stone...mainly for chisels and jointer and planer knives, but great for all knives.

[LBQT]

FWIW, I recently bought four Global knives (paring, two sizes of utility knives, and a larger chef's knife). I like them better than the others I've used in the past because they are lighter weight (I bought the one-piece knives), seem to hold a sharper edge, and the handles fit my small hands better.

[rmhardy]

I am late finding this message stream, but am a kitchen cutlery advocate, especially Japanese. I started out years ago with the old carbon steel Sabatiers. When Sabatier apparently decided to start making knives for Wal Mart, I went to Henkles and later to Wusthof, which I thought were the best until I encountered Messermeister, which proved to be a significant improvement over Henkles and Wusthof. Then, wanting to add a Santoku to my Messermeister collection, I decided to go to the source and get a Japanese Santoku.

First I found that this is really not a traditional Japanese style; it is sort of a Japanese version of a blend of a Chef knife and a Japanese Kamgata Usuba, or vegetable slicer with a rounded rather than a square front end. Anyhow, I bought a KAI Shun 6 1/2" Santoku. I quickly realized that German knives, even Messermeister, have not yet touched the hem of the master when it comes to sharpness, balance and beauty. But just when I thought I had found major league cutlery, I bought a Masamoto Hongasumi Yanagi from my close friend who owns a sushi restaurant. I quickly realized that this was the first real knife that I had ever owned.

These handmade Japanese treasures from Masamoto and Aritsugu are true works of art and take an edge that makes Gillette envious. There are only two problems. First, they are expensive. To get the edge you need the pure hand forged knives, i.e., no Kasumi grades. Unless you are prepared to spend a minimum of $300+, you are better off with KAI Shun (Kershaw). Second, they are like Lays Potato chips. You can't have just one. If you are turned on by knives that are beautiful, sharp and functional, and sharp, and sharp, then you will not stop with a just one. Pretty soon you will have to start listing these knives on your balance statement. So skip the beginner grade handmades and go directly to the top, (or at least the top of the bottom level; the custom grade Masamotos and Aritsugus can get into the mid 5 figures if you really want to go that far, but I suspect this is probably overkill if you don't speak fluent Japanese.)

My favorite is the Masamoto Hongasumi Hassouchi (damascus Aoko Blue steel) Masamoto's Honyaki knives require a real pro to sharpen because the steel is not a blend (that is what a Honyaki means). The Aritsugu Honyaki (Jun Nihonko) is about the same price as the Masamoto Hongasumi Hassouchi, but requires more skill to sharpen (it is a Honyaki, afterall). They both are in the $750 range. The choice really is between a Bentley and a Rolls. (I have no personal experience with the Artisugu, I am only passing on what my Japanese bud tells me, but I trust him in light of the fact that the Masamoto Hassouchi is so far beyond any expectation of what is possible in a knife, that I no longer question him.)

Last, I have read numerous posts on alternative means for sharpening. If you decide on a Masamoto or Artisugu, disregard all of the posts that recommend any method other than a stone. All of these other methods will ruin the knife. You must use a good Japanese water stone, preferrably at around 1000 grit or finer. The 300 grit stones will actually dull the knife. I have personal experience with this fact. Despite what my friend warned, you can use a steel to restore the edge, so long as you use a quality F.Dick fine cut, that does not remove metal. Use a very light touch. Never use a regular cut steel, a heavy touch, a power sharpener, a wire sharpener, a diamond sharpener, or anything other than a fine cut steel and a fine grit water stone.

Conclusion: The best quality general use knives for kitchen use are the KAI Shun (Kershaw) line, either classic or Pro, or the Kasumi (which is the same blade as the Shun, with a different look handle.) But for the real deal, get a Masamoto Hongasumi Hassouchi or Aritsugu Jun Nihonko Honyaki, a water stone, and let yourself fall in love with your Japanese samauri swords. Just don't sleep with them without the Saba cover.

[Theodore]

Just curious. I'm a bit of a knife fan as well. Haven't run across one in the search I did. TIA.

[Dennison]

Hey Theodore -- All of the Kasumi brand knives that I've seen have a visible Damascus pattern on them. I've purchased them from Broadway Panhandler here in NYC in the past, and I'm pretty sure you can find some online retailers as well. The only detailed photo of the pattern that I could find with a quick search is this completed ebay auction, which isn't the santuko, but is close enough for our purposes. (Check out www.cutleryandmore.com for the santuko shape that I like.) Note the round hocho handle -- some love it, others don't, so it's vitally important that you handle the knives before purchasing.

Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...

[SG]

slightly larger picture from Ittosai's Gyutou (Chef Knife) 9.4" at Korin's website. Not cheap though.

Link: http://www.japanese-knife.com/Merchan...

[William Chan]

I own a Masamoto nakkri bocho, a vegetable slicer similiar in shape to a medium size Chinese knife. The quality of the knife is much better than a Chinese made knife. The Masamoto holds a razor sharp edge, that with care can last a very long time. It is ideal for slicing matchstick size soft vegetables and meats. It does however require more care than a stainless steel knife. I scrub the blade with ajax cleaner to remove any stains, and then I apply a coat of vegetable oil before storage. Overall I feel that the shape of the Masamoto Nakkri Bocho is much more useful than Wustof or other brands of knives for the preparation of Chinese or Asian style of food.

[rerem]

It's hardly exotic but I'm fond of my Forschner 10" smooth blade slicer. I got it at a yardsale...maybe $3. but list is $20-25 and ebay you may get it around $15...in other words-cheap. Forget the Granton dimpled version. It's a little thicker blade and can't take the extreme bevel you want. My opinion is that Forschner uses a slightly harder steel then most Euro knives. This slicer is THIN...you can flex the tip more than 1" easily. However you can also sharpen it at as low of an angle as the stone allows. Specifically-don't use an oilstone-at least not with oil. I like India stones and Arkansas stones with a little WATER. I can get traction at a steeper angle NOT using oil.
At work my slicer may need to slice up 100 lb of pork tenderloin or corn beef and on that scale I want a quick push-pull done,not a lot of sawing. Sharpened at the "original' angle....none of Forschner's stuff is special. Challenge the steel to take a steeper angle,more like a Mac or Global and you'll be surprised.

The classic Japanese slicer is the Yanagi which is part slicer part long filet kife and usually sharpened one side. Single edge lets you have an angle that's not that radical..but the effect is a total bevel more acute than a double edge typically has. The trade off is it tends to slice things with a bit of an arc. My Deba can part chickens,seperate 10# packs of half frozen meat and after an hour f that--do a decent job mincing herbs (though I do have another knife for that type task). The point is a single edge can give the effect of sharper but seems to have a mind of it's own-so you adapt.

I think it would be interesting to re-do a whippy western slicer as a single edge.

[rerem]

FWIW....Lamson is probably the last quality USA knifemaker doing mass production but there are some "Craftsman/Custom" Knifemakers like Thomas Haslinger who do knives that are just obscene (in a good way)

Haslinger uses high end Powder steel,mostly CPM blends from Crucible,and does a beautiful blade with a handle so pretty you could just frame the knife and hang it on the wall. Prices,running around $400-500 are stiff but if I ever was thinking of spending such a sum.....that's what I'd get. I like his Redwood Burl handles especially. I live among Redwood trees and their longevity - and size, make them a rather unique tree.

[HSBSteveM]

Like everything else out there, we are overwhelmed by all the "brand hocus-pocus", when it comes to high-end knives.

Put the brand and the country of origin out of your mind and focus on how the knife was forged, what type of metal was used, how those properties affect the sharpness and general "behavior" of the knife, what is eye-appealing to you and, above all, what feels comfortable to you.

A $2,000 knife is like a $350,000 Bentley. Nobody "needs" one, but plenty of people these days can afford one, so they exist.

[Grillncook]

I own two sets of Henkel's and a few Shuns and I love them all. One of the Henkel's sets is a forged one and the other is stamped. Im not real impressed with the stamped, but they do the job. the Shuns are great and I'm in the process of building a set for the house , when assembled the Henkel's forged set gets relegated to the motor home. My favorite knife right now is a "Faberware" (unknown manufacturer) 7" Santoku purchased in rush, for $9.95. It's forged with a ridged blade and made of good steel and it holds a great edge. So go figure, get what you like and what feels good in your hand irrespective of where it was made and who made it, in the end the only person that you have to please is you, everyone else can go pound sand.