289467 Thu May 30 19:15:13 -0700 2002 23 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1567356 Perhaps this is heresy as I prepare for tonight's German Riesling and Cantonese Cuisine dinner in San Francisco. But I just have to recommend this dazzler of an Australian Riesling . . . I tried it last month and it's left a lasting impression on me. Better yet, it sells for only $8, and lower from discount retailers. The 2001 Leasingham "Bin 7" Clare Valley Riesling (11.5% alcohol, imported by International Cellars, Chantilly, VA) first enchants you with a perfumey, nearly intoxicating, floral nose. Scents of lime blossom, jasmine, lemon zest, and poached pears overflow the glass. On the palate, it's zingier than expected (yes, even for riesling) with very crisp and mouthwatering acidity holding up lemon-lime and minerally flavors. In a more restrained style, the wine carries through gracefully to a persistent finish with a slight residual sugar that is well-buffered by the acids leaving the impression of dryness. The other great thing is that this wine is stoppered with a Stelvin screwcap. The top Australian producers of Rieslings have pledged to use screwcaps on their BEST wines to change the image of this closure. No more bottles spoiled by cork taint and you don't need a cork screw to get at your wine. I also liked the ease of reclosing/reopening the bottle which I kept in the fridge and tasted two more times over the course of the week. While the captured bottle scents fell off over time, the wine continued to build on the palate growing more tropical in taste and improving each day. In particular, the finish filled out and grew longer. These bode well for improvement with cellaring for those who have the patience to wait 3 to 8 years. $8 is a tremendous bargain for a wine with so much breed that can deliver pleasure now and will continue to improve with cellaring. 87 points Link: http://www.churchillcellars.com/leasingham_ries.htm Thu May 30 19:15:13 -0700 2002 0 Melanie Wong 1 1567357 In the past 3 weeks, I've had 4 corked bottles. 3 of them were rose's, one a pinot noir. All of them from different producers. Needless to say, I am a very unhappy wine consumer at the moment! I'm all for screwcaps or plastic corks. I can't believe more wineries won't adopt them. Probably because people like me never bother to return said cork bottles, so I'm partly to blame, but it's such a hassle... Now there is even an organic producer that packages red wine in aseptic boxes. No oxygen ever comes in contact with the wine (the wine is in a plastic bag), as the wine is drawn from the tap, the bag deflates and protects the wine from exposure. The producer of this wine is the Nevada County Wine Guild. The wine is called "Our Daily Red". Although I prefer something a little more substantial in my glass (it is a red table wine), the box wine is an outstanding idea. I opened mine one week ago, just had a pour, and it tastes exactly as I remembered it. Link: http://www.sautewednesday.com Thu May 30 19:37:17 -0700 2002 1567356 0 Bruce Cole 2 1567359 I remember Jeff Smith (the Frugal Gourmet) ranting in one of his old cookbooks about the virtues of wine stored in a bag. Seems like a good idea- maybe with some clever marketing it will be a hit! Thu May 30 19:51:12 -0700 2002 1567357 0 Jackie AVery 2 1567360 Wines produced in Switzerland for the domestic market are nearly all screwcap. If that small country can learn the benefits, maybe we can educate the small wine-drinking public in this country. The main reason that producers do not use screwcaps is marketing resistance. Many consumers are in love with the ritual of removing the cork - feh! Bag in box is very popular in Australia too. Thu May 30 19:56:44 -0700 2002 1567357 0 Melanie Wong 3 1567364 I don't think many people enjoy trying to remove the cork. My guess is that screw tops and bagged wine are associated with cheap wine. The wine makers are not educating the public about the benefits. I drink a fair enough amount of wine where I can just pop that cork out, but it isn't my area of expertise. I don't read wine columns or magazines. Lately when I started getting plastic corks, my thought was "how cheap is this". I also suspected that plastic would allow air to get in the bottle more easily. Also, regarding bagged wine...Doesn't that kill the aging process? I'm just asking. I have no clue. Thu May 30 20:07:17 -0700 2002 1567360 0 Stanley Stephan 4 1567366 I once heard an unsubstantiated figure tossed out once that less than 30% of American households own a cork-pulling device. Talk about bad marketing to make your product impossible for most people to access. I'd love to hear from anyone who has a documented stat for that - it doesn't sound far off to me. Screw tops and bagged wines are associated with cheap wine. The Australian initiative is trying to change that. Swiss wines are also not inexpensive, and they use screwcaps, except for the cork-finished products that they export to the USA! On our own shores, PlumpJack has bottled part of its Napa Cab production in screwcap and charges MORE for it just to get the public used to the idea of a prestige product in screwcap, and it is highly allocated. Not all synthetic closures are equal. Some do let air into the bottle and are only appropriate for wine not meant to age. Some wineries are doing long term studies on a variety of closures and we should see more changes soon as these pan out. Avoid any wines using Altec composite corks, unfortunately, you don't know which until you pull it and smell the faint cork taint. Be sure to take them back to your retailer for refund. Bagged wines are not entirely airtight and are intended for wines for current consumption. Remember that 95% of wine in the US is consumed within hours of purchase. The potential for this type of packaging is enormous if the public would accept it. Thu May 30 20:18:39 -0700 2002 1567364 0 Melanie Wong 5 1567368 Thanks Melanie. I have yet to age a wine at home more than three months. I do have one more question, the only concern I would have about boxed wines with plastic bags is how recyclable they would be. I do keep a box of Almaden or some other cheap boxed wine for cooking or those times I don't want to open a bottle but would like a glass of red table wine. While I am careful to recycle bottles, the combination of bag/box just gets tossed in the garbage. Thu May 30 20:34:30 -0700 2002 1567366 0 Stanley Stephan 5 1567376 Melanie, I really respect your knowledge and obvious love of wine. I've learned a great deal from your postings and always enjoy reading them. That being said however, I'am at a loss to understand why you feel a retailer should be expected to make a refund to a consumer for a bottle of wine with an Altec cork. Thanks for the tip on the Riesling. Thu May 30 23:01:10 -0700 2002 1567366 0 FrankT 6 1567384 If the wine is flawed due to the manufacturing process, in this case by use of an Altec cork, the retailer should make a refund. The retailer will then send it back to the distributor who returns it to the winery for credit. Several wineries are suing the manufacturer of Altecs for refunds they've had to make due to the composite corks tainting their wines. Unless consumers push back and refuse to take flawed wine, the situation will not get any better. Good retailers will do this service for their customers. Be aware that they'll usually only take back bottles that have been purchased in the last year or even more recently. If you've been cellaring a wine for awhile and it turns out to be corked, you're out of luck. Fri May 31 04:04:13 -0700 2002 1567376 0 Melanie Wong 7 1567437 So, forgive my belaboring the point, but are all Altec corks flawed? Is Altec a brand name for type of cork? Fri May 31 16:31:23 -0700 2002 1567384 0 Terence 8 1567444 Altec is a brand of agglomerated stopper made from pieces of natural cork glued together. The result seems to be that cork taint is now distributed evenly among all of the stoppers. In my experience, every bottle I have tried that is stoppered with an Altec has been tainted. A article about Calif. wineries affected can be found on Wine Spectator's site: http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Archives/Show_Article/1,1275,3418,00.html A published trial of various closure types (summary linked below) also found that 100% of Altec stoppered wines in the sample were tainted. It also discusses some of the other properties of non-cork closures that we've touched on in this thread. Link: http://www.wineanorak.com/closuretrial.htm Fri May 31 16:55:19 -0700 2002 1567437 0 Melanie Wong 5 1567635 Since, 45% of Americans don't drink alcohol, I'm not totally shocked by the statistic that less than 30% of US households don't have a corksrew. I've seen "less than 50%" also claimed. I also recall the statistic that about 10% of American wine drinkers consume roughly 95% of all wine consumed annually. We're talking very narrow market in the US. The UC Davis Graduate School of Management conducts a Wine Industry Survey every year. An excerpt from the survey's summary is below. I thought it was interesting enough to share on this topic. The comment re half-bottles is one change I would certainly like to see. And, if the industry is serious about increasing the number of wine consumers and the amount of wine we drink, the half bottles should be half the price of a full not marked-up further. Also at the end, I've included a useful reference link to resources on wine and the wine industry generally. FYI - "Smiley" is the Dean of the Grad School at UC Davis. Cheers, Scott // Smiley also believes packaging is essential to attracting more consumers. "In my mind, the wine industry is the slowest industry to innovate packaging," he said. "This leads to a lot of people who even on occasion would have wine not buying it because they don't have a corkscrew in the house. I also think different size packages will help, such as half bottles." In his survey, when participants were asked what needs to be done to improve the market for wine, Smiley reported that the top three answers were a variation of the same response: Make wine simpler. Appeal to the 50% of the population that does not drink wine and the 30% that drinks wine infrequently by demystifying wine, making choosing wine less intimidating and using closures that do not require a specialized household item to undo. Suddenly, screw caps sound appealing. // http://www.gsm.ucdavis.edu/visitors_center/news/Smiley_Wine_Survey.htm http://libweb.sonoma.edu/research/subject/wineinfo.html Mon Jun 03 16:21:09 -0700 2002 1567366 0 ScottM 4 1567367 I used to think of plastic corked wine as being cheap. Now, over the years of having opened so many corked bottles, I actually look for them. As far as the bag interfering with aging - alot of wines produced these days are made for drinking young. In order to attract a new generation of wine drinkers, wine makers are making wines that don't need the benefit of aging and as a matter of fact, would deteriorate with age, not improve. Thu May 30 20:25:11 -0700 2002 1567364 0 Bruce Cole 3 1567472 I like my wine outside the bag, outside the box. But I still haven't made up my mind wether I like my aged Bordeaux tainted by cork or plastic. Sat Jun 01 02:19:08 -0700 2002 1567360 0 2chez mike 3 1567596 Seems that cork producers are feeling a (potential) threat nonetheless. In the past couple of months, I saw a large ad in one of the glossy food magazines placed by an association representing Portuguese cork producers (almost all cork used in wine production is from Portugal). The gist of it was "cork is classic, cork is best, don't accept any substitute in your wine" (naturally, without any explanation of why natural cork is superior), and the tone was clearly suggesting that substitutes for cork are cheap and unclassy. Mon Jun 03 12:28:46 -0700 2002 1567360 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1567606 Yes, thanks for bringing that up. We've often joked about whether restaurants will start charging a "screwage" fee in lieu of corkage for BYOB. (g) I have heard rumors but no confirmed accounts yet that somewhere in Italy designers are working on some very attractive and potentially fashionable designs for screw caps. Italy is the leader in packaging design, especially for wine, and I can't wait to see what they come up with to help create a new image appearance-wise for screw caps. Mon Jun 03 13:06:34 -0700 2002 1567596 0 Melanie Wong 1 1567372 Don't mean to burden you with this but, if you know, are there any retailers carrying this in the L.A. area? Thu May 30 21:25:23 -0700 2002 1567356 0 Bob Brooks 2 1567482 I did a search on Google for you and came up with the contact info (linked below) for Leasingham's US rep office. They should be able to tell you were to buy the wine in LA. I believe, but am not certain, that Wine Warehouse is the Calif. distributor. If so, it should be easy for your favorite retailer to order for you. The friend who gave me this bottle to sample said he used to sell huge quantities of it when he was still in retail in LA. So, I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding it. It's a popular price point and made in big quantities. Link: http://www.crushedgrapes.com/wineries/australia/leasingham/history.html Sat Jun 01 14:57:53 -0700 2002 1567372 0 Melanie Wong 1 1567377 Thanks so much for the recommendation, Melanie. Can't wait to find it here in D.C. Can I bother you to recommend any particular German Rieslings that can be purchased now (under $25, if possible)? (Or to direct me to another site with reliable Riesling recs?) (Or to magically transport me to your Limster feast?!) I love Rieslings but have a very difficult time keeping track of the various labels and wide array of styles -- despite having read my Willie Gluckstern! Thanks again. Thu May 30 23:32:36 -0700 2002 1567356 0 Marty L. 2 1567380 Try a Gunderloch Jean Baptiste or a Kurt Darting Kabinett or Spatlese. J.J. Prum makes a good Spatlese. If you want to splurge try a Austrian, Hirsch Zabinger Gaisberg Alte Reben. Fri May 31 01:09:05 -0700 2002 1567377 0 howardS 2 1567481 Hi Marty, here's a link to the wine list and Bob "Ciaohound's" notes for the recent LimsterFest dinner at Kirin in SF. I'll try to add more comments over the weekend. These include the great wine estates of Germany and some of my very favorite producers. Starting at the top through the Spätlesen, you should be able to stay under $25. On the Southwest Board, http://chowhound.com/southwest/boards/southwest/messages/3614.html is the list of fantastic Germany Rieslings we tried at Lotus of Siam. Most of my purchases come from Bill Mayer who specializes in Riesling and puts out a bi-monthly newsletter. His descriptions and recommendations are golden. His contact info: Bill Mayer The Age of Riesling Work: (510) 549-2444 Fax: (510) 549-2525 Work Address 1813 Short St. Berkeley, CA 94702 Email: poetry1@lmi.net with David Schildknecht, 513-469-1235 You can get on his mailing list, and since you're in the East, you might want to deal with his partner, David Schildknecht. David is even more passionate about German Riesling than Willie! When my schedule frees up at the end of the month, I hope to write up my recent tasting tour of German wine lands. Disclaimer: Bill Mayer is a personal friend. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/20071#68585 Sat Jun 01 14:43:42 -0700 2002 1567377 0 Melanie Wong 3 1567496 Thank you, thank you, thank you. I had seen, and marveled at, and salivated over, the post on the Limster Riesling feast. Perhaps we *should* move back to the East Bay. (It's only the real estate costs, the traffic and the schools that keep us away.) And I look forward eagerly to your further Riesling discussions, and to the Bill Mayer newsletter. Any idea if there are reliable retailers in the D.C. area that specialize in Rieslings? I know this is sacrilege because we're one, big happy, democratic/egalitarian Chowhound family, but . . . I'm confident I wouldn't be alone in nominating Melanie for the Hound Hall of Fame. The Boards, and our palates, would be much the poorer without you. Sat Jun 01 19:08:45 -0700 2002 1567481 0 Marty L. 4 1567561 Thank you, Marty, I'm overwhelmed! As you point out, we are a community that supports and inspires, and it's not fair to single out one person. I'm not familiar with the retailers in the DC area, maybe you want to post an inquiry on the local board. Also, I want to point out that Bill Mayer's newsletter is his sales vehicle to customers. For a electronic magazine devoted to the grape, check out the link below. Disclaimer: I know Peter and Kirk. But I have no financial connection to their publication. Link: http://rieslingreport.com/ Mon Jun 03 01:23:15 -0700 2002 1567496 0 Melanie Wong 4 1567640 http://www.cometdeli.com/ When I was living in DC, I bought a lot of wine from this place: Comet Liquors on Columbia Road in Adams Morgan. The owners have been the same for years are incredibly friendly and always gave me good advice on wine -- usally offering a free bottle of something else if I didn't enjoy what was recommended. They may not carry much in the way of Rieslings but I'm sure they can tell who does. Mon Jun 03 17:00:42 -0700 2002 1567496 0 ScottM