289164 Sat May 04 15:15:04 -0700 2002 43 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1564158 Before I set anyone on fire, I am neutral about vegetarians. But what's this all about? When visiting in a home where the wife is vegetarian, the husband not, I observed the following: when the H made chicken, etc., the W would feed some to the 2 year old (as long as it was organic). But H could only make meat in a particular pan, not any of the others. I can't get a handle on why the W is vegetarian -- Certainly not animal rights as she wears lots of leather. Sat May 04 15:15:04 -0700 2002 0 saucyknave 1 1564161 Some people think it is healthier or are concerned about their cholesterol level. Others don't like the taste or texture of meat, or the thought of eating dead animals just grosses them out. In terms of animal rights, some folks aren't opposed to eating animals per se, but are against factory farming and the mistreatment of animals in the beef and poultry industries in particular. This would explain why someone who would not eat meat might wear leather. It does not explain why you would still feed chicken to your child, however. Anyway, I have never met a single person who does not exhibit some sort of contradictory behavior. Sat May 04 16:17:41 -0700 2002 1564158 0 JessicaKlonsky 2 1564165 I understand the wide variety of motivations for vegetarianism and can respect them even when I do not share them. What really flips me, though, is the insistence that H cooks his meat in his "own" pan. It's not as if she's Jewish and is separating meat from dairy. And it's not as if she won't handle meat to give it to her child. Just a personal quirk? Sat May 04 16:48:11 -0700 2002 1564161 0 saucyknave 3 1564173 Maybe he always burns the meat and makes a big ole mess, and she she wants to limit the damage to just one pan. Sat May 04 21:29:06 -0700 2002 1564165 0 Jackie Avery 3 1564176 Mmmm...complicated. No other signs of power tripping? I have known people who would not even use the spoon (washed) that had stirred the chicken soup! Very strange, I agree. About the kid though, she may be hedging her bets on the protein question. For instance, maybe the child says "yuck" to tofu and she wants to avoid a lot of mucous producing dairy. She also wisely may not want to create a barrier between child and papa with a "Daddy is gross and eats meat" scenario. Sat May 04 21:34:27 -0700 2002 1564165 0 suzannapilaf 4 1564184 I have not yet met a vegetarian that didn't have some wacked out quirks. A high school veg friend wouldn't kiss her boyfriend if he had eaten meat and not brushed her teeth first. A current veg friend will eat meat when she travels to Europe, because she feels why travel to France and not eat great food. Europe is the *last* place I'm looking for a steak dinner what with the problems of the last few years. Vegetarian meals, including vegan choices, are more easily found in Europe than here in the states. Sat May 04 23:45:45 -0700 2002 1564176 0 LB 4 1564199 My ex-husband is a butcher (owns his own wholesale meat company) and his current wife is a vegetarian...still trying to figure that one out. He's the sole source of income in their household, so I guess it doesn't bother her too much that other people eat meat...meow. Sun May 05 10:21:43 -0700 2002 1564176 0 Sweetie Pie 3 1564183 Maybe she IS Jewish. I grew up in a kosher home and subsequently became a vegetarian. I still occasionally find myself carrying over some of the attitudes toward food that I learned in my early years, even if they don't apply on any rational basis to my present diet. Sat May 04 23:38:26 -0700 2002 1564165 0 C. Fox 1 1564186 So, did you ask her why she's vegetarian? Seems if you are close enough to be asked over to dinner, there should not be a problem. Let us know. Sun May 05 00:31:55 -0700 2002 1564158 0 Stephan Stanley 2 1564188 It's my DIL & I don't rock the boat. Sun May 05 00:57:40 -0700 2002 1564186 0 saucyknave 3 1564190 Oooooh. I did a brief vegetarian stint where I decided I wasn't going to eat what I couldn't kill personaly. Then Thanksgiving came around and I decided I could really knock off a turkey if I had to. Maybe it's a phase given the fact she wears leather. Ask the son offline? Sort of a "I'm thinking of inviting you and the DIL for dinner and don't want to offend. What should I do?" (I'm assuming here that DIL is daughter-in-law). Sun May 05 01:28:01 -0700 2002 1564188 0 Stanley Stephan 3 1564195 When a MIL (or anyone else) has shown non-judgmental interest in my vegetarian eating habits, I've seen it as a positive, not as "rocking the boat". Sun May 05 06:54:56 -0700 2002 1564188 0 Janet 3 1564203 I have never dreaded a question more than "Why are you a vegetarian?" But if you are concerned, you might want to ask if she would require or prefer any special preparations or precautions. Sun May 05 13:03:47 -0700 2002 1564188 0 Grace 4 1564224 I believe many who ask that question do so from genuine curiosity - particularly as there are various reasons for becoming vegetarian. You should look forward to explaining your reasons as a chance to open others up to some of the issues that led you to your choice whether from the point of view of health concerns or animal rights, etc. I am not vegetarian, but I am not unsympathetic to the various concerns that lead people to become one. I'm simply unable to give up my occasional meat cravings. Sun May 05 16:14:38 -0700 2002 1564203 0 saucyknave 5 1564247 My experience has been less positive. Most people who have asked me my motives seem to be searching for hypocrisy or inconsistency. If I were to tell them that it was for moral reasons, they would point out that I wear leather shoes. If I were to tell them that it was for health reasons, they would get on my case if they ever caught me eating a donut. Environmental reasons? Hey, did you just throw out that Post-It? You know the non-sticky part can be recycled... The truth is that I never really had an easy-to-articulate reason for being vegetarian, so no cause to try to inform others about. Moreover, I felt it was a highly personal decision (as, I believe, most choices about food are), and it's hard to tell inquirers that I'd rather keep my reasons to myself. You have indicated that although you are not vegetarian, you understand why people are. I think that most people understand most of the various reasons for becoming a vegetarian. Furthermore, I think many people feel some degree of guilt for not being one themselves, and try to compensate by reassuring themselves that the object of their inquiries is not perfect. For these and other reasons (including the accusatory tone that often accompanied the question), I suspect most of the questions I received were not so innocent. Sun May 05 21:59:29 -0700 2002 1564224 0 Grace 6 1564252 Thanks for the insight. I've always wondered why vegetarians rarely answer this question and then freeze you out. Is there a non-threatening, non-objectionable way to ask this question? I'm always just interested in why people make the choices they do. Also, my intention is not to offend since there are so many different reasons that someone can be vegetarian. I may assume it's just animal rights where the reality might be for health. So in that case I probably wouldn't take the person to a high-fat restaurant. Sun May 05 22:54:28 -0700 2002 1564247 0 Stanley Stephan 7 1564261 Grace, I'm sorry you've had so many negative experiences around this issue. I suspect in some areas where it is less commonplace, this may be more of a problem than in others. And you're right that much judgmental behavior reflects defensiveness. But I still believe that many of the people who ask you may be genuinely interested in what benefits you believe result from vegetarianism. Or it may be just an innocent question that is meant as idle conversation or a way of getting to know you better, the "what's your sign" of the 21st century. :) Mon May 06 02:26:38 -0700 2002 1564252 0 saucyknave 8 1564339 Those who ask the question may well have a genuine interest in why someone is a vegetarian. You might also be genuinely curious about the problems leading to your neighbors' divorce, but that doesn't justify your asking them about it. It's a very rough analogy, but food choices *are* very personal decisions, and there are plenty of other (and better) ways for people to learn about vegetarianism if they are genuinely interested. It may well be a version of "what's your sign." I just wish it could be answered as easily! Mon May 06 14:43:08 -0700 2002 1564261 0 Grace 9 1564341 Also, I should mention that it's especially troublesome because vegetarianism is a food choice, and so this question often comes up at a meal when people discover the quirk. One of the reasons that I dreaded the question so much is that I often had to answer it at a restaurant in front of six or more coworkers whom I barely knew. (If you're curious about why I continue to use the past tense, it's because I recently became a born-again omnivore. I can't say that the frequent grilling contributed to the switch, but it certainly didn't make vegetarianism any easier.) Mon May 06 14:51:24 -0700 2002 1564339 0 Grace 10 1564373 It's a grill-or-be-grilled world out there... But seriously, Grace, thank you for articulating what I've always felt when confronted with that question. Hereafter I will have more confidence about evading the issue whenever I don't feel comfortable discussing it. Mon May 06 17:22:50 -0700 2002 1564341 0 C. Fox 7 1564265 best thing to do (when asking any question) is to remember your intention. do you want to learn, bond, explore, or reach some other healthy end through the question? OR, are you feeling afraid of, spiteful toward, or already disapproving of whatever you feel a need to ask? we all bring different things to our conversations, and sometimes even the best of intentions don't keep us from inadvertantly insulting the person to whom our question is directed, though i must say trying to have positive intentions prevents a lot of misunderstanding. and, one of the few wise things my father told me, its never what you say, but always how you say it. (think, "where did you get that dress?" ...ever heard something like that and felt like you'd be better off dead...) Mon May 06 07:46:35 -0700 2002 1564252 0 renee 7 1564336 It might not seem like it, but it's actually a very personal question. So I feel that if you're worried about offending with your question, you probably aren't close enough to the person to be asking it. Often I wouldn't even give my family a straight answer, but that's my family, and I don't have to tiptoe around them. It's harder with coworkers and casual acquaintances who will be put off by an it's-none-of-your-business, however delicately phrased. There are plenty of books, articles, magazines, and websites on vegetarianism, and you can learn the myriad reasons for becoming a vegetarian at any of them if you are truly curious. I don't think it's necessary to put anyone on the spot. Mon May 06 14:36:57 -0700 2002 1564252 0 Grace 6 1564314 VERY well-stated. I am glad to see that someone else feels like I do. I have been a vegetarian for 10 years. I struggle with the question when I get it and I, too, can't stand it when asked. I feel as if its somewhat intrusive and I really just avoid answering as much as possible. Like everyone, my reasons have evolved over the years and will continue to evolve as I discover more about health and how our food is produced. My Better Half is an omnivore and it poses little, if no, issue in our relationship. In fact, he feels as if he is healthier for it. RE: the whole pan thing - I can relate and don't really see what the big deal is. My brother-in-law (BIL?) scrubs down the grill before cooking my tofu dogs every Fourth of July BBQ. Again, it's a personal choice. But hey, maybe I'm one of those "whacked out" vegetarians referred to in this thread, so what do I know? I'm cooky! Mon May 06 13:06:14 -0700 2002 1564247 0 wow i'm a dog 7 1564322 Grace, I'm surprised you've had such overt negative responses to vegetarianism. I don't know (or don't know I know) anyone who would consider vegetarianism whacked out or kooky. Among those of my friends whose eating habits I know about, I'd estimate half of them are vegetarian or at least reducing the amount of meat in their diet and/or eating organic. Could it be that vegetarianism is more commonplace in some parts of the country than others? (I'm in the urban NE where restaurants cater to vegetarianism, for example). Or are there other factors in its frequency, distribution? Do other vegetarians among the Chowhounds find that same level of hostility and if so, are there lots of vegetarians where you live? Mon May 06 13:50:40 -0700 2002 1564314 0 saucyknave 8 1564379 Well, Saucyknave, I haven't encountered what I'd call "overt hostility". However, people do tend to like to challenge my eating habits - I've found this to be true through over twenty years of not eating meat or poultry (during which time I've lived from Santa Cruz to Detroit to NYC). It happened just this past Saturday in Queens, in fact. But, I think that folks are mainly just testing the waters - do I have an axe to grind?, am I judging them?, and the like. Admittedly, I've had years of practice, but I find that a sense of humour and a lack of attitude render these "confrontations" non-events. (Of course, it probably helps that I smoke and drink, so I've "vices" of my own to offer up.) In short, as with most things, the key is to not take one's self too seriously. Mon May 06 17:52:23 -0700 2002 1564322 0 M.Dale 8 1564855 I'm in So Cal, and have encountered hostility as well as genuine interest over my 13 years of being vegetarian. I agree that some people want to "catch" you with your leather shoes (wait until you run into the anti-veg who knows about gelatin in film!), and I think that there are always people EVERYWHERE who feel threatened by those who make different choices. BUT, I have also encountered more and more people over the years who tell me how much they have cut meat out of their diets, and seem more inclined to want to side with me rather than "against" me. It's a sign to me that vegetarianism has become quite respectable and that many meateaters want to identify with us as people making healthy lifestyle choices. I'm sure it helps that I exercise regularly, don't smoke, don't eat junk food, etc. My solution to being asked "the question" is to have a pat answer at hand. I always say something like "well, over the years, the reasons have multiplied: animal welfare, the environment, my personal health, etc. I could go into it more if you're interested." Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't, but I've given a nutshell version, and opened the door for more questions at the same time. Fri May 10 23:57:13 -0700 2002 1564322 0 LisaPizza 8 1564919 I'd go along with that. Outside of the NorthEast, and even in certain parts of it, vegetarianism is considered pretty bizzarre if not downright subversive. I've experienced the same problems of people trying to catch me in hypocracy. I'm happy to explain my reasons, but almost everyone who asks in any detail does so in a fairly hostile manner. Sun May 12 09:40:37 -0700 2002 1564322 0 fladd 9 1564944 I wonder if the hostility against vegetarians is a back lash from the radical vegetarians who in the past have made headlines with their attacks on the carnivores eating habits as well as on their use of leather, fur, etc. I am a confirmed omnivore. I dated and then lived for a long while with a vegetarian. I had to accept that it was difficult for us to go to restaurants back then. Now I wouldn't see the problem because of the change in eating habits the past 15 years. I did have to learn how to cook meals that would satisfy both of us. This was more of a mental battle for me, and it seems for her. Interestingly enough she ended up eating fish, seafood, and poultry occasionally. She just couldn't stay away from my cooking... but I didn't force her and bent over backwards to meet her requirements. Sun May 12 14:27:15 -0700 2002 1564919 0 the rogue 10 1564950 Some vegetarians ask for it. For example, there was a thread last summer on the International Board with a couple of American expats living in Budapest complaining about the lack of vegetarian options in Hungary. One poster wrote: "If they want our tourist dollars their going to have to get hip to what people need to eat." As if Hungary needs to chnage 1,000 years of rich gastronomical culture to satify a whining american vegetarian eurorailer. I spent 7 years lving in different parts of Eastern Europe, and it would be impossible to have an understanding of Chech, Slovak, Hungarian, Bohemian, etc. food culture as a vegetarian. It is this type of attitude that turns many off (perhaps unfairly). Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/260236#1375439 Sun May 12 17:31:14 -0700 2002 1564944 0 John M. 9 1564956 I'd be interested in hearing from people on the West Coast. I would guess that vegetarians there would have no problems. All those great fruits and veggies most of the year! Where better to be a vegetarian? Sun May 12 19:46:25 -0700 2002 1564919 0 saucyknave 2 1564202 I find my DIL a very interesting instance of vegetarianism. (She does eat dairy and fish.) First of all, she makes no objection to OTHERS eating meat in or out of her presence. In fact at times that traditionally call for turkey, rib roast, etc., she has made no objection to others cooking the organic bird, even in her house! Cooking for her is no problem as I make lots of vegetarian and fish dishes, anyway and I am sure to make something special for her, too. Second, when H cooks meat, she wants some given to their son (as long as it is organic). And, as stated before, she has no problem wearing leather. All these elements, together with her insistence on eating organic foods as much as possible, make it seem to me that health is her motivator, not animal rights. As I mentioned before, I have no problem with vegetarianism, whatever its motivation, and have for health reasons reduced my own meat consumption, eat only free range chicken and eggs (preferably organic), and hormone and antibiotic free milk. To me these precautions seem obvious. What I cannot fit in is having only one pan that meat can be cooked in. The holiday turkey's never been a problem as I have to bring a large pan for that, anyway. (And no, she is not Jewish.) It's the contrast between her general flexibility and the issue of the separate pan for meat that captures my attention. I thought perhaps some vegetarian might be able to clear that one up for me. Sun May 05 12:24:11 -0700 2002 1564186 0 Saucyknave 3 1564205 I don't understand what's so confusing about wanting meat cooked in a separate pan (or pans). I'm a vegetarian just like the person you describe. I eat fish, have no objection to others eating meat (and my wife is non-veg), and would even allow it to be prepared in my home. But I don't want my food cooked in a meat pan period. Maybe it's psychological, or maybe it's the fear that certain animal fats may linger, perhaps due to the occasionally incomplete scrubbing or whatever. Sun May 05 13:08:22 -0700 2002 1564202 0 Dan Sonenberg 3 1564206 I don't understand your motivation, you seem to be a little picky here...She's non-prosletysing about her vegetarianism, she doesn't make others feel bad about eating meat, and she's letting her child make it's own choices. She also respects everyone else's meat-based holiday traditions...What could make a semi-vegetarian more amenable? I also eat fish and some dairy, and it makes perfect sense that she only uses a certain pan(although a couple more would make life easier, I'm sure!) to cook meat in...I only use certain of my cast iron pans to do fish in, because as people have pointed out on this board, the smell does get into them, as well as into some non-stick....And I _like_ the taste of fish! If meat was regularly being cooked in my kitchen, you bet it would be in seperate pans.She seems perfectly reasonable to me.. And I have a fabulous black leather jacket! ;) Sun May 05 13:34:35 -0700 2002 1564202 0 galleygirl 4 1564217 I am not criticizing vegetarians in general nor my DIL in particular. I think I pointed out how moderate her position is and that for the most part it appears that she's motivated by health concerns (which I share, hence my limited meat intake). I'm simply unable to understand the pan restriction, particularly since they are stainless and invariably clean. Sun May 05 15:24:29 -0700 2002 1564206 0 Saucyknave 5 1564249 FYI, awhile back I read about a commune (back in the '70's) which had central dining facilities for the residents. Every day they cooked meat for the residents who insisted on it, but it was necessary to maintain a separate kitchen to keep all the vegetarians happy. They provided separate foods with and without eggs and dairy; foods that were unseasoned and without onions and garlic for those who thought these incited passions; raw foods for those who ate no cooked; more restrictions than I can at this moment remember. At the time, though, there was not too much of the "I'm a vegetarian, but I eat chicken/fish/etc" that we encounter now. The man who wrote the article had become a doctor since leaving the commune, and now considers that sort of dietary control (one so all-encompassing that it controls your life, for whatever reason) to be an eating disorder. Sun May 05 22:31:02 -0700 2002 1564217 0 ironmom 6 1564259 THAT'S a kitchen I'd never step into. :) Though I must admit I do cater to my cat's finicky appetite. I recently read an amusing account by someone cooking a family meal for a group of people each of whom had different food allergies and/or dietary restrictions of choice. I don't think that today's garden variety vegetarianism qualifies as a food disorder, though it is often about something other than food per se (animal rights, political stance, health concerns, etc.) Like anything else, though, a disordered personality could turn it into a disorder. But personally, I think of vegetarianism as a mainstream "style" of eating among people I know and wouldn't think of entertaining without having food that will work for vegetarians. I'm can see that some may use their food habits and preferences almost like a weapon against others, controlling their behavior. But in fact, most of the people I personally know who are vegetarians are pretty relaxed about it, merely abstaining from meat eating themselves and have no problem joining in at a buffet where there may be meat on the table for others. For most of them, the main motivation is health. Indeed what puzzled me about the the person I wrote about not wanting meat cooked in pans she cooked her food in stemmed from her general tolerance for the meat-eating habits of others. On reflection, the suggestion someone made earlier that the pans might seem to her to continue to carry the aroma of meat makes the most sense to me. Mon May 06 02:01:56 -0700 2002 1564249 0 Saucyknave 7 1564267 His diagnosis of whether a person had this eating disorder was based on how much impact a person's eating habits had on their life. If a person could never travel, eat out, or socialize with friends; if they spent hours daily obsessing about their diet and trying to design menus that would allow them to eat; and whether the "moral factor" prevented them from associating with people who did not share their preferences were the contributing factors to this diagnosis. Someone who abstains from meat and likes to keep a separate cooking pan for others to cook meat in would probably qualify as only mildly eccentric, according to this definition. Mon May 06 08:08:36 -0700 2002 1564259 0 ironmom 8 1564319 Love it, Ironmom! If "how much impact a person's eating habits had on their life" is taken as a basis for diagnosing an eating disorder, then we Chowhounds are mostly all disordered. :) As for eccentricity, I consider that to be a high compliment. (Do we have a symbol for Now I'm Serious?) The problem with diagnoses is the implication that something is wrong with any deviation from some mythical norm of the time and place. My definition of an eating disorder is that one is killing oneself with too much or too little food or making life impossible for oneself or those around one. It's true that in our Chowhound case, food is intended as a source of pleasure and enrichment and hopefully benefit to our health, including the vegetarians among us. But our obsession about food may appear to be more than mildly eccentric to some of our less engaged family and friends. Think of the trips we take to this or that place in pursuit of a great meal. Think of the time spent shopping to find this or that particular ingredient for this or that particular dish in all sorts of out of the way stores, sometimes in distant cities. Think of the hours spent in the kitchen beyond what is needed merely to put food on the table for ourselves and our family. The hours (and dollars) spent on cookbooks and building or buying all those new bookshelves to put them on. Do we cook to give our friends something to eat or do we have friends to cook for them? What makes us normal and not disordered (I hope) is that most of us do not destroy our health through our obsession and eccentricity. And most of our friends are pleased rather than dismayed by our fascination with food and grateful to share its fruits. Mon May 06 13:26:08 -0700 2002 1564267 0 saucyknave 3 1564207 You made some good points in my book. My wife is a vegetarian but she has no objection to dairy(except regarding her waistline when I try to slip some whipping cream into a recipe) and she will once in awhile eat shrimp. From the day she was born she was brought up on nuts, salad etc and she considers it most of all as a health issue. She has no objection to what I eat and it generally is the basis for a lot of laughs, especially when I bring a live lobster or crab home and let it run around the kitchen before it becomes dinner. I do find the issue of cooking two types of dinners a daunting task day in and day out. I generally prep hers and then cook my own (play time). I do not have a lot of items in the kitchen so generally use the same pan for multiple uses. However, as a matter of courtesy (or just good common sense) I try to make sure I do not mix the two (always wash in between uses). They say that even as much as you might clean say a plastic spatula, you never really remove the residue. In reverse, I believe David Rosengarden said that he keeps a cast iron pan for his own use just for hamburgers, meat, etc. I wouldn't make too much out of this as I would think most of it is what is in the mindset of each person. Hey I might object to using a pan that was used say for something I didn't like (say octopus)YUK!. Anyway, we have a very relaxed fun relationship and each couple just has to find the common ground that works for them regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. Sun May 05 13:37:36 -0700 2002 1564202 0 DavidH 3 1564254 Maybe you simply don't like the woman? We all have friends who we'd forgive almost any trespass. We all have non-friends whose minor quirks drive us nuts. It's not about the vegetarian pan, is it really? Sun May 05 23:24:08 -0700 2002 1564202 0 Oopsie Daisy 4 1564257 On the contrary, I like and admire her very much. If I didn't I wouldn't bother to try understand what she does. Mon May 06 01:33:16 -0700 2002 1564254 0 saucyknave 1 1564214 I don't know if anybody noticed but a guy was quick enough and original enough to grab the domain site that normally the P.E.T.A. (people for the ethical treatment of animals) would have taken. He renamed it as (people eating tasty animals). Ha! What fun!. In the site he has posted links to all the sites he can find like: meat; leather; fur; taxidermy; hunting; fishing and most fun of all... he posts all the hate mail he gets. What brought this to mind was all the gals posting on this thread that said they were wearing leather. Here is the link. http://mtd.com/tasty/ Link: http://mtd.com/tasty/ Sun May 05 14:51:59 -0700 2002 1564158 0 DavidH 2 1564264 he actually had either peta.com or peta.org for a while, but as a result of a lawsuit: long story short he said he was a parody, they said he would confuse and disgust people looking to the "real" peta website. there was an account on his peta page about the court battle, but if you go to either, you will now find the same peta propaganda. best, renee Mon May 06 07:24:23 -0700 2002 1564214 0 renee 1 1856872 I'm not a veg myself nor have I ever been one. My personal feeling on this is, go ahead a be one if you like. MORE MEAT FOR THE REST OF US!!!!!! LOL DT Wed Sep 06 11:39:18 -0700 2006 1564158 11291 Davwud