288940 Thu Apr 11 17:41:52 -0700 2002 25 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1561819 This may be a New York thing, 'cause I see it a lot mostly on those boards, but: there seem to be a lot of highly disparate ways to define "vegetarian." Even among people who count themselves as such. Some eat fish. Some use it to mean "I don't eat meat (but I might eat fish or chicken or eggs or dairy?)" I always thought it meant the same as what is now called "vegan" but with the possible inclusion of milk products (otherwise known as lacto-vegetarian). (But what do I know? I'm an omnivore, except for natto.) Then there are the folks who won't even touch honey, let alone milk, eggs, meat, fish, poultry, gelatin, etc. and consider anyone else who WOULD eat anything but veg and fruit to be unworthy of the name. This is all very confusing. I don't want to offend anyone. How did George Bernard Shaw define it? (He's my ideal for this). Is there any chance for consensus? Thu Apr 11 17:41:52 -0700 2002 0 CTer 1 1561823 Check out this link for clarification... Link: http://www.jtcwd.com/vegie/types.html Thu Apr 11 18:33:24 -0700 2002 1561819 0 wow i'm a dog 2 1561824 I looked at that site, and it's very helpful. BUT I know several people who eat fish and chicken and claim to be vegetarian. I know vegetarians often look at us meat eaters with disgust, but there are certain religious people (fundamentalist yogis maybe?) who would probably consider even strict vegetarians heinous murderers. These yogis eat only milk and honey. They feel pulling up a plant is killing, and somehow eating nuts and fruit is also. Maybe because fruits and nuts are plant "embryos", and can make new plants if allowed, but I'm not sure of that. Thu Apr 11 19:01:48 -0700 2002 1561823 0 Sarnie 3 1561836 As someone else said above, some vegetarians will not consume honey. I've heard vegetarians questioning the ethics of traditional film photography, as gelatin is a necessary element in film, and who will only use digital cameras. I tend to just say "I don't eat meat" (which I haven't for > 30 years) and leave the classification to other people, but I do of course seek out vegetarian restaurants. Thu Apr 11 20:29:45 -0700 2002 1561824 0 Janet 3 1561840 "BUT I know several people who eat fish and chicken and claim to be vegetarian." They may claim to be, but they're not. "Meat" is flesh, not just mammalian flesh. I'm not a holier-than-thou vegetarian (I'm not a vegetarian, in fact), and don't begrudge anyone their omnivorous appetites. But it really bugs me when people call themselves vegetarian when they eat poultry and/or fish, because it means that the public (significantly, people in food businesses) blur those lines and don't understand or take seriously people's descriptions of their dietary limits. Losing the labels is fine with me. It's easy, and clear, to just say "I don't eat red meat" or "I eat fish but no meat." Thu Apr 11 22:00:18 -0700 2002 1561824 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1561988 There's a famous English "vegetarian" who limits his diet, not according to the substance of the food, but the conditions under which it is raised. He doesn't eat meat, nor does he eat dairy products which come from farms which stimulate their cows to painful overcapacity by means of hormones. But he will eat game occasionally, because it is wild. In fact, he gave me some very useful info on cooking wild goose. Sat Apr 13 20:02:54 -0700 2002 1561840 0 John Whiting 5 1561989 I think he needs to coin a new term for his diet. He cares about the provenance of his food in various ways, but he's not vegetarian. Sat Apr 13 20:44:41 -0700 2002 1561988 0 Caitlin McGrath 5 4610308 thats like me i only eat ethically raised animals, for example i live in australia and i eat kangaroo because it is wild. i eat organic chicken and fish too plus other ethcially raised animals and organic eggs and dairy, i am not a vegetarian obviously i am an ethcial eater (and i know i am fortunate to have the choice becasue its expensive and not every one can do it-yet) Sun Apr 19 21:22:22 -0700 2009 1561988 235412 umbushi plum 2 1561826 I use to be a pesco-veg, but now I eat everything (but natto). I have to say I was thinner than I've ever been during that time. I also ate a bit less dairy, but I'm a cheese freak, so that's a hard one. I made an effort to get all my nutrients and protein by eating beans and spinach and fish and such, but I also got sick more then than I ever have before. Hmmmm...thin...and sick. Fat...and...not sick. I miss thin. Then again, I didn't have a day job back then and I went to the gym or ran every day too. Thu Apr 11 19:38:04 -0700 2002 1561823 0 Vanessa On The Town 1 1561829 am i just out of a loop, is it a joke... what's natto? Thu Apr 11 20:03:08 -0700 2002 1561819 0 katydid 2 1561839 See the link for Natto. Link: http://www.japantips.net/english/culture/natto.html Thu Apr 11 21:22:13 -0700 2002 1561829 0 The Rogue 3 1561870 OMG! that picture is so gross! and so right!!! But it doesn't give you an idea of the STINK (and boy, am I glad it doesn't!) Fri Apr 12 10:03:09 -0700 2002 1561839 0 CTer 4 1561934 Since natto bacteria comes from, among other things, rice straw, is it the same bacteria that causes leftover rice in the back of the fridge to get all sticky and gross? Fri Apr 12 17:11:45 -0700 2002 1561870 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1561832 My sister stopped calling herself a vegetarian among other reasons because she became so annoyed by the whole labeling issue. Generally, I'd say a vegetarian doesn't eat any animal *flesh* while a vegan doesn't eat any animal products at all. That's what I would expect from a restaurant, for example, that billed itself as vegetarian or vegan, respectively. But I've seen people who eat chicken and fish and still call themselves vegetarians (huh?); being a pesco-vegetarian is pretty common for people who avoid meat for health and/or political/environmental rather than philosophical reasons. My brother-in-law used to draw the line at vertebrates, i.e., he ate shrimp, but not fin-fish, but he's caved to the fish eating since he married my sister, etc. I even know some fruitarians: people who only eat foods that can be harvested without killing the plant (never mind that most food plants are annuals that die anyway and the vast majority of seeds produced by plants never germinate). Personally, I'm an omnivore (although I've never tried natto [g]). That's what our species is biologically designed to be: if we were designed to be vegetarians we'd have different teeth and digestive systems. (I once heard a so-called nutritionist proclaim that cows got all their calcium from grass and so could we, never mentioning that cows need four stomachs and hours of cud chewing to wring the nutrition they need out of grass.) Thu Apr 11 20:10:47 -0700 2002 1561819 0 Ruth Lafler 2 1561844 I am also an omnivore, and I do eat natto, on occasion: next time you are in a "traditional" sushi bar, try asking for a temake (hand roll) with ume-shiso-natto-gobo (pickled plum paste, beefsteak plant leaf, fermented soybean paste, and a vaguely carrot-like pickled root vegetable ). My brother, who travels to Japan frequenty, introduced me to this sushi roll. It is a unique amalgam of tastes and textures: salty-sour-fresh-pickled-smooth-crunchy-with sushi rice. The only things I don't care for are alfalfa sprouts and tripe. Thu Apr 11 22:20:05 -0700 2002 1561832 0 zora 1 1561833 Here's one for you. I own a vegetarian restaurant but am myself an omnivore, although having just read Fast Food Nation I am seriously considering returning to my former mostly vegetarian ways. I don't consider my occasional meat eating hypocrisy because my goal is to make vegetarian food more accessible to the mainstream American diet, not just to be enjoyed by card carrying vegetarians or vegans. If everyone ate less meat, there could be a more equitable distribution of resources and less hunger. Anyway, the people I serve fall across a wide spectrum. Some are full-on carnivores who find our menu tasty and well presented, some eat cheese and eggs, some eat cheese but not eggs, some eat only cheese made without animal rennet, some are vegan and eat nothing of animal origin, including tomatoes which are genetically modified with dragonfly genes for color. I was once threatened with a lawsuit because I use white sugar which at one point of the refining process is filtered through charred animal bones! Although I know a teenager who claims to be vegetarian except for hot dogs, I think most people define vegetarians as those who include eggs and/or dairy in the diet, and vegans as those who decline anything of animal origin. Personally, I am glad that the lines are getting blurred and that a substantial number of people can now conceive of a meal that doesn't depend on flesh whether or not that is a lifestyle decision. Thu Apr 11 20:12:43 -0700 2002 1561819 0 suzannapilaf 2 1561845 My eleven year-old daughter is an omnivore who would like to be a vegetarian. She has decided that she will eat meat, if the animal was free-range and humanely raised. Of course, that's the meat that also tastes the best. Too bad it's so expensive. Thu Apr 11 22:25:34 -0700 2002 1561833 0 zora 3 1561867 this is the most important time for your daughter to learn that paying for quality over quantity is a wise choise. would you want her to wear ugly ill fitting clothes just because they were cheaper? a decent education (often) costs more than a shoddy one. Part of the reason free range humanely raised meat is more expensive is because production is low (as percieved demand is low) if people stopped buying mean meat those factory farms would be forced out of business. encourage people who are doing the right thing. Perhaps you could give your daughter a "meal allowance" for each week. she may learn to consider meat to be the luxury item that it was for centuries and she may gain some insight into meal preparation and food combination. just help her make sure she gets all the nutrients a growing body needs (especially b12 and D) Fri Apr 12 09:48:28 -0700 2002 1561845 0 renee 4 1561896 I agree completely. I worry when I see young people adopting a vegan diet out of ethical concerns for animals and the planet but without adequate nutritional information. Education is sorely lacking in this regard. I should be receiving my copy of "Hope's Edge - A New Diet for a Small Planet" by Francis Moore Lappe and her daughter today at my local book store and expect it to be a good source on these matters. A less radical lacto/ovo diet should present no problems... Fri Apr 12 12:56:10 -0700 2002 1561867 0 suzannapilaf 2 1561936 For anyone interested in the sugar issue, check out these sites: http://www.vegfamily.com/veginfo/sugar.htm http://members.cox.net/pnienstedt/processed_sugar.htm According to Veg Family... "The following sugar companies DO NOT use bone-char filters: Florida Crystals Refinery P.O. Box 86 South Bay, FL 33493 407-996-9072 Labels: Florida Crystals Refined Sugars Incorporated One Federal St. Yonkers, NY 10702 914-963-2400 Labels: Jack Frost, Country Cane, 4# Flow-Sweet Pillsbury Makes powdered brown sugar Supreme Sugar Company (subsidiary of Archer Daniels Midland) P.O. Box 56009 New Orleans, LA 70156 504-831-0901 Labels: Supreme, Southern Bell, Rouse's Markets The following sugar companies DO use bone-char filters: Domino 1114 Ave. of the Americas 25th Fl. New York, NY 10036 212-789-9700 Savannah Foods P.O. Box 335 Savannah, GA 31402 912-234-1261 California & Hawaiian Sugar Company (with the exception of its Washed Raw Sugar) 830 Loring Ave. Crockett, CA 94525-1104 510-787-2121" Fri Apr 12 17:16:10 -0700 2002 1561833 0 wow i'm a dog 3 1561953 Thanks for the resources. I try not to eat white sugar for the reasons mentioned, but it always helps to have more info! Fri Apr 12 22:20:37 -0700 2002 1561936 0 LisaPizza 1 1561865 vegans also eat legumes beans and nuts! Fri Apr 12 09:42:53 -0700 2002 1561819 0 renee 1 1561929 There are many grey areas- cheese usually isn't just lacto- it also contains rennett. There is also a movement of people who won't eat anything that is cooked whatsoever. Only raw foods. I forget what they call themselves. But they would, for example eat raw sashimi fish (without rice). And I've heard of people who will only eat food that has naturally fallen of the tree/stalk/what have you. They must be very hungry people. No matter what, I find as a vegetarian, people will generally enjoy inquisitioning you about it- up to and including "How do you know plants don't feel bad when you kill them?" I say eat how you feel comfortable, be honest with people, and dream of a day when perhaps there will be more words to define the situation. Until then, be prepared to defend your beliefs. Now that I think about it, describing your vegetarian habits can be as complex as describing your religion- people expect it to fit into the classical definition, but it's something so personal, it rarely does.My husband and I are going back to "vegetarian" soon, after our May 15 reservations at Peter Luger (I've never been). We both had been vegetarians before we met. We're going back, in large part for me, from the New York Times beef article. It was a wake up call. My first round of vegetarianism, I was 12 years old and wasn't aware of the ovo-lacto issue. I just didn't eat meat, and wouldn't shampoo my hair with anything with animal protein in it. There could be a category for people who also don't wear leather, etc. Second round, I was just vegetarian, not vegan. Now, I plan on being vegetarian again, but not severely strict. I suppose I'll say I'm "vegetarian, but not completely strict." Fri Apr 12 16:53:11 -0700 2002 1561819 0 cypressstylepie 2 1561941 Actually, kosher cheese uses vegetable, not animal, rennet, or something similar to rennet. As for what to call people who only eat raw foods, how about ... no, on second thought, let's just not call them. Fri Apr 12 18:32:01 -0700 2002 1561929 0 CTer 3 1561942 Sorry I didn't get into it, but kosher cheese was the "usually contains" in my post. Speaking of which, I could also mention that there are many (by no means most) Jews who eat vegetarian, IN PART, to simplify keeping kosher. That way, they only need one set of dishes. They also do it for all the usual reasons, but it has that added bonus for them. I also meant to mention that I catered a mostly-vegan wedding once, and went to great pains to label all the food- I even had ingredients lists. Not one person minded the honey-nougat for desert. I was walking around informing everyone, and they so did not care. I know other people who do care about honey, though. And one woman was horrified at the end of the night when she realized she was eating the tapenade I had prepared with tuna and anchovy, as opposed to the vegan preparation that was on the table (all clearly labelled) next to it. Fri Apr 12 19:01:48 -0700 2002 1561941 0 cypressstylepie 1 1561955 I want to thank this group for respectful and thoughtful responses to this question. There have been a NUMBER of times when someone has posted about wanting to find a veg. restaurant, or how to eat out with a veg. friend or SO, and there always seems to be someone who has to make a sarcastic remark or belittle vegetarians in some way. I've been a vegetarian for 13 years, and someone's opinion of my dietary choice or how "natural" it is (I could go on and on about the "unnatural" things we do every day -- like driving a car instead of walking everywhere, for example!) isn't going to make me change my mind or feel badly about how I eat. So why bother? I disagree about some of the labels that people use (pesco-veg. is my pet peeve, and I agree that it muddies the waters when I try to order veg. in a restaurant), but I think it's worthwhile to share the reasons that people choose not to eat/use animals/animal products. It CAN be as complex as a religious belief, as someone mentioned above, and as personal and meaningful. And/or it can be a health choice, an animal welfare issue, environmental issue, etc. Because animal products are so much a part of the products that we use daily, it's pretty hard to completely eliminate them from one's diet and lifestyle -- film is the perfect example. Everyone has to make their own decision about how far they are willing and able to go for their beliefs. Fri Apr 12 22:47:30 -0700 2002 1561819 0 LisaPizza