288782 Tue Mar 26 10:28:19 -0800 2002 26 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1560092 Hello fellow chow hounds! I have a question that has been bugging me for a while and I was hoping all you chow hounds out there could help me. I live in one of the five boros of NYC. I have in-laws that live in another boro. My question is, what is the attraction to diners? I, personally, don't have a problem with an old fashioned "greasy spoon" for Breakfast and/or Lunch. You know, good pancakes/eggs/waffles and the like and good sandwiches/burgers/fries/meatloaf and the like. It's just that when we go out for dinner with the inlaws they shun the idea of dining at a restaurant and always suggest a local diner. We dined at a nice little "happening" place for their anniversary and they were very disappointed that we chose this place. It was a nice table-clothed dining room, dimly lit and a wait staff that was friendly(if not exactly wellread on the menu). I am a starch man at heart, but will enjoy a hunk of raw meat everynowandagain, as long as it is raw, as in black and blue, rare, red, juicy, MOO. My father-in-law enjoys only meat, preferably veal chop, "very well done" or the occasional romanian steak, again, very well done. No sauce, no flavorings, no garnish, no nothing else on the plate, at all. Even side dishes MUST be served in a monkey dish, diner style. Anything that will even remotely resemble moistness is reason enough for him to send it back and ask for it more well done. And, lest we forget, a monkey dish full of lemons for his chop or steak. This is to kill any bacteria/germs/whatever that might still have survived the burning, er, cooking process (and give a taste, of some sort, to the remaining protein left). At this nice little restaurant I decided, being their anniversary and all, to order a steak, as it was labeled "Black Angus" on the menu, just to join him in his carnivorous meal. He decided, this not being a diner, as he is accustomed to, and rebelling against it, to order the pasta, the one thing on a plate he despises. I enjoyed a well done steak (ordered rare, but it wasn't a really GREAT place) and he didn't bother finishing his "undercooked pasta"(where he comes from pasta is boiled for at least 20 minutes and not drained, but allowed to cool in the water and served BLOATED with DRY toppings. Gee, no wonder he doesn't like pasta, but will argue that it's worse to serve it "al dente". ) The wine selection was of an inexpensive bottle of white blah blah, ordered by me to accommodate his taste(or lack thereof) to white wine and pair it with *his* dish, not my steak. His comments were, "this tastes just like the house wine at the diner". His point being, why pay the price for a bottle when (to him) it tastes just like bag-in-the-box wine. My point is, what is it about a diner that attracts so many people? Perhaps my view of 'eating out', or 'dining out' differs from most people. I go out to dinner to enjoy what the CHEF has to offer, not asking him to substitute everything for what I want, I could have gone to a diner for that. Any dishwasher, er, cook can take what has been in the walk-in refrigerator/freezer for a few months and microwave or deep fry it to order and pair it with things that each individual likes. But it takes a CHEF to prepare a meal that does not need to be drowned in ketchup or salt or pepper. To me a restaurant is a place that when an order is taken it is served 'as is', that is to say, if my plate of food needs any salt or pepper, the chef did not do his/her job.(period) Every diner I walk into I have to drown my food in a pile of salt and pepper to extract anything that even remotely resembles flavor. So I just order a "hot open roast beef" with FF and a coke. At least the Roast beef that has been there for a month or so is drowned in a pile of "brown gravy", to hide any "taste" that this pile of....might have. But it isn't just my in-laws, I have noticed, that go for dinner at a diner. These places PACK them in. Is it that people don't enjoy not having a choice of substituting everything for things that make no sense? Is it that people don't really know what cuisine is?(I have already answered that for myself) Or is it that at a diner you can get mass quantity despite the poor quality for a cheaper price? Just a question. Thanks in advance for your replies. Dave Tue Mar 26 10:28:19 -0800 2002 0 David Pantol 1 1560094 Traditional diners are popular for the same reasons as to why fast food restaurants are popular. It's not because they deliver the best food or experience (at least to your or my tastes). They're popular because they deliver consistent and familiar food at a fitting price point. Some people don't want to think much about what they're eating, or to try new things. So, it's a risk-free and easy choice to head down to the diner for some meatloaf. Tue Mar 26 10:42:05 -0800 2002 1560092 0 Uncledave 2 1560125 That's the truth. My parents are friends with this couple and neither the husband or wife cook, so they're always going out to eat, and it's usually the local diner because the husband is a strict meat-and-potatoes guy. I'm from Jersey, land of diners, and I like them just fine for breakfast and good, basic sandwiches, but you'd have to have the most boring palate imaginable to want to eat in them constantly (esp. for dinner). Tue Mar 26 14:04:29 -0800 2002 1560094 0 Stephanie L. 3 1560130 My point exactly, Stephanie L. I don't mind, as I stated, but *I* bend, endlessly, why not anyone else? If *I* have to sit through this *meal*, then why would it not be appropriate that others sit through another, no? Tue Mar 26 14:19:48 -0800 2002 1560125 0 David Pantol 4 1560134 I completely agree with you, David. You have been flexible with them, and now it's your in-laws's turn to be more flexible. Granted, if it's their special occasion, they get to pick the place. Otherwise, it is unfair. If they guilt-trip you by saying that diner food is the only food they will eat, well, then you don't go out to eat with them anymore. As a compromise, invite them to your house and cook smth that all of you might enjoy (doesn't have to be anything fancy). Tue Mar 26 15:04:02 -0800 2002 1560130 0 Tatyana Gourov 5 1560138 I agree, as well, with you, Tatyana Gourov. I had them over many times at my home, which is their daughters home. We make foods THEY like when they come over, just as ANY guest is treated with respect in my home. I prepare the foods they like HOW they like them. But even with that they find fault. Where they are from it is customary for the homemaker to cook a meal early in the morning and eaten in the evening, room temperature. I compromise and make things ahead and let them cool, a bit, before bringing to the table. "This is too salty/hot/spicy/oily/heavy/light/made wrong/whatever" just to prove some kind of point. Diners, I just don't understand. Tue Mar 26 15:16:12 -0800 2002 1560134 0 David Pantol 6 1560143 Boy, they sound just like fussy children to me! Why not stop going out with them at all? ;-) BTW, does your wife like diner food or is she more of a gourmand? Tue Mar 26 15:30:54 -0800 2002 1560138 0 Tatyana Gourov 7 1560146 My wife knew nothing but diners when we met. Our first date was at a cafe, due to her embarrassment, I found out later, of not knowing what to order if we went out to eat. So she asked that we go to a cafe for some drinks and coffee afterwards. Now she has grown accustomed to dining in many countries, experiencing many cuisines and enjoying LIFE together. EXPERIENCING LIFE together. Gourmand is a word I choose not to use to describe anyone. I guess it's because I don't like the word. I'll call her, not a chowhound, but a gastronome. Tue Mar 26 15:48:21 -0800 2002 1560143 0 David Pantol 8 1560147 It's great that your wife is so open to new experiences. That makes all the difference. Just out of curiosity, why do you not like "gourmand"? Tue Mar 26 15:55:52 -0800 2002 1560146 0 Tatyana Gourov 9 1560151 Gourmand means glutton, originally. It is interpreted, today, by French definition, to mean a person who delights in eating well and heartily. The heartily part still implies glutton. I see a difference in that vs. gastronome, a connoisseur of good food and drink; a gourmet. Tue Mar 26 16:23:07 -0800 2002 1560147 0 David Pantol 10 1560152 That's interesting. I only knew of the definition of gourmand to mean "epicure" or someone who appreciates fine food and drink. I never knew there was a second meaning of "glutton". Not a very pleasant association! Tue Mar 26 16:32:08 -0800 2002 1560151 0 Tatyana Gourov 10 1560157 What's funny is that in modern French, "gourmand" indicates someone who enjoys food and wine and dotes on food. "Gourmet" has a connotation of fussy, snobby pickiness, the kind of person who says, "Ah, it was but acceptable" after a dinner at Guy Savoy. "Gastronom" is Russian for supermarket. Tue Mar 26 17:23:46 -0800 2002 1560151 0 PRSMDave 11 1560173 That's exactly why I do not use the word "gastronom" to describe a person who enjoys good food (anyone who's ever been to one knows how low the quality of produce etc. is and how bad the service. Actually I should say "was". On recent visits the food situation has improved a lot, though not the service). Tue Mar 26 19:12:39 -0800 2002 1560157 0 Tatyana Gourov 4 1560215 I'm sorry this thread has devolved into an analysis of your family relationships, because I think your original question is interesting. I *want* to like diners, but like you, am almost always disappointed. It isn't that I don't like the comfort foods that diners specialize in, it's that I can always seem to find better renditions elsewhere, at reasonable prices, too. "That's not fair," diner proponents might argue. "Diners have huge menus; you can't expect them to make so many dishes well." Fair enough. But why bother with a place that has wide but mediocre offerings? It's my same beef with buffets. I remember when I bought the Sterns' original Roadfood, and occasionally drove an hour or two out of my way to eat at one of their favorite diners. Invariably, the place looked great, had a fun ambiance, and served not very good food. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've never had a great hamburger at a diner; never had great french fries. I've had a few good pies, but not in urban locations. Have I just been unlucky? I understand that folks, including me, don't always need a great meal, but that's a different issue than saying that diners are great. Wed Mar 27 00:58:31 -0800 2002 1560130 0 Dave Feldman 5 1560591 Tom's Diner used to have fantastic fries. Maybe not better than, but certainly different from any other place. It's been a while since I've been up there though, so that may no longer be true - a lot about that neighborhood has changed in the past few years. Cosmo's (alas, now defunct), which was also a diner, had the best fried clams I've ever had in NY. For a long time, Starlight Diner on 86th St. (now the Comfort Diner, I think) had really good burgers - it's probably worth a try. The Renaissance Diner on 52nd (I think) and 9th is also worth a try. I don't think I've ever been disappointed with the food there. I do find that diners in Manhattan are likely to be much much better than diners elsewhere. This isn't too surprising, as competition tends to weed out the really bad ones (although most of the really good ones seem to have disappeared or undergone massive changes - not sure what that means). Sat Mar 30 20:15:06 -0800 2002 1560215 0 Caviar 1 1560100 You've answered your own question - why >should< you pay more for the bottle when you can't tell the difference between it and the bag? The fact that you can isn't an excuse to force it on someone who can't or won't. Think about the way you've behaved - you've taken what should have been a really nice occasion and turned it into an excuse for squabbling and complaining, because you thought it more important to educate your "ignorant" in-laws about the "right way to eat" than to take into consideration what they might actually want. Did you also preface it with "that diner is terrible, let's go to a real restaurant"? From your attitude, it would have come as a surprise to me to hear that anyone enjoyed that meal. Food is about more than food. It's a lot about bringing people together. It's also about accomodating for tastes, because (gasp!) people don't all have the same tastes. People have heavily variant and learned responses to food - for the most part, people learn to like what they eat. If you're not used to even lightly spiced food, it can be massively overwhelming instead of a delicate menage of intertwined luxuries. I love food. I love all sorts of strange foods. As I learn to cook, the number of foods I won't eat grows smaller as I wander weird ethnic markets and find things. Things that can really only be described as... things, to my unknown eye. Things that beckon to be cooked, prepared, spiced, loved, and enjoyed. But you know what? Not everyone feels this way! I was lucky to grow up in Manhattan. But even with that massive culinary advantage, and exposure to all different kinds of wonderful cuisine (and my mother is a fabulous cook), I didn't like Mexican food until after college! I was lucky enough to fall in with a group of people who ordered the strangest things on the menu, while I was still young enough to learn. So I learned. I tasted. I tried. I tasted again. It was a long, hard, sometimes disgusting process, but I learned. And I'm still learning. But most people do actually take offense at being told that what they've done their whole life is wrong. Perhaps you should simply stop being such a snob and eat something you like beforehand so you can bear to sit through a meal you don't enjoy every once in a while in deference to other people's tastes, no matter how invalid they may seem to you. Tue Mar 26 11:35:36 -0800 2002 1560092 0 Caviar 2 1560108 Well put, Caviar. For my partner's birthday while we were still living in NYC, I once made reservations at a restaurant that I wanted to try that got a write up in several places. It sounded good and she likes all kinds of food, so I thought she would find something tasty there. We also had theatre tickets that evening. Well, we chatted some time before the dinner (thank goodness) and I realized that it was HER birthday and I wanted to do something nice for HER but I picked a place *I* wanted...didn't really consider what she would REALLY like. I hadn't mentioned that I had made reservations, but I called and canceled them and made another reservation. This one at Virgil's BBQ. I love BBQ but I am not willing to settle for mediocre BBQ (not when we lived in Queens and had Pearson's!) but this was HER b-day and I knew it would be what SHE wanted. She likes BBQ sooooo much that she will forgive a lot. Hey we are different, but I love her and I gave her a birthday that she still talks about. (...and we moved to OR so my chances of having to go to VIrgil's again are slim!) So, I whole-heartedly agree...if you are taking someone out for a special dinner, it should be where THEY want to go. And yes, sometimes that is a diner for my mom and other folks. Hey, in NYC diners often have really good fish and if you're lucky, good burgers...what is so awful about that? Every night can't be foie gras and filet mignon! And MY in-laws? Buffet lovers from the midwest...but they are great and loving people...and the salad bars on some of those buffets are really good! Gotta make the best of it!! What the heck are a few meals out of your life when it comes to being a member of a caring family?! Tue Mar 26 12:24:35 -0800 2002 1560100 0 Jill-O 2 1560110 I feel that you attacked David unfairly. You put words in his mouth that he didn't say. You wrote fake quotes from his post that you assume he said but didn't. You owe him an apology. He did not say anything negative to his relatives at all in his post. In fact you didn't answer his question at all, just attacked assumed, not real, behavior on his part. You need a reality check here and not to transfer your issues onto someone else unfairly. Tue Mar 26 13:03:54 -0800 2002 1560100 0 NoGo 3 1560119 I'm not sure why you say that. There were no fake quotes - I asked if he reacted a certain way and said a certain thing, and clearly labeled my question as such. Most of my post was directed at the choice of restaurant, rather than at any particular thing that was said. I inferred (not assumed) that the meal was vocally not enjoyed from the fact that comments were made about the venue and the wine: --- 'We dined at a nice little "happening" place for their anniversary and they were very disappointed that we chose this place.' 'The wine selection was of an inexpensive bottle of white blah blah, ordered by me to accommodate his taste(or lack thereof) to white wine and pair it with *his* dish, not my steak. His comments were, "this tastes just like the house wine at the diner".' ---- My only issue is with people who complain (with what I infer to be scorn) about how the tastes of others are endlessly pedestrian and somehow inferior a priori, and I'm getting upset at the frequency with which such posts are appearing here. It's true that I didn't actually answer his question, so I'll attempt to do that. I think that people like diners because they give a sense of comfort and value. For some, getting the best flavor is the most important thing (indeed, it's what chowhounding is about). For others, getting a familiar flavor at a good value is the thing. For still others, it's about going to a place where everyone can order what they want, be it a burger, eggs, fish, meatloaf, or whatever. In some places, the diner is the only place where this is possible. My point is that most of us have no idea what associations other people may have with food, and dismissing their opinions as inherently inferior is the actual definition of snobbery. David - your post was suffixed with a question about why, but it was still a long and vitriolic message that I took to be a complaint about the refusal of your in-laws to accept that the restaurant of your choice is somehow "better" than the diner that they like. If I misread your intent, please say so. I think this is an interesting and important discussion. Tue Mar 26 13:40:28 -0800 2002 1560110 0 Caviar 4 1560135 Caviar. I take no offense to your opinion, at all. I asked and you wrote your opinion as you see it. Thank you. Whether I agree or disagree is my problem. I ask about diners and the attraction to them. Perhaps I sounded a bit *snobby*. I don't when with the in-laws. I accept their decision, and dine at their place of choice. My wife chose the restaurant we dined for their aniversary, not me. I did not care for that place much, but she said it would be a nice place for all of us to enjoy, together. It wasn't, but I don't blame her for that. I made a very long post out of a simple question to address the situation more so than the choice. It is, as well, my choice to dine with them or not, not just where. I have several diners near my home that I avoid because of price and service. I travel 20 minutes for the occassional Sunday breakfast to a "greasy spoon" that serves eggs to my liking and pancakes to my wifes liking. Well worth the trip and all. Lunch in this place is nothing short of terrible. So I go to the diner 4 blocks away for lunch, when need be. But, as Stephanie L. says, "you'd have to have the most boring palate imaginable to want to eat in them constantly (esp. for dinner)." I agree. When we go out to dinner, or lunch, with the in-laws, we go to a diner. When on a trip to Long Islands East End, I suggested eating at a well known place with a good reputation, to which my father-in-law replied, "Isn't there a diner near by?" So, I found out where there was a diner and we *ate* there. No complaints from me, no comments to them from me, no nothing. I sat down, ordered and ate. But why can't we all get along and share some. Of the multitude of times we dined together, not once did we dine where I was taken into consideration. I'll eat a sticky bun burger or a roast beef with a gallon of gravy, to which I get comments like, "why are you ordering THAT?" or "Why don't you get a steak?" I don't care for the *quality* of the steaks and chops in diners. That is why I don't order them. My father worked in diners. He is responsible for my not having a meal in a diner, other than breakfast, until I was in college. If he knew that there is where we dine, he would flip. I don't want to get into the 'cleanliness' issue,or the *recycled* pickles/coleslaw/gravy/salad/etc.issue or even repeat the frozen for a year issue, but if only *some* of what he says is true, then I might as well not eat anything anymore, no less at a diner. UncleDave summed it up best for me, regarding diners in diners. Cheap eats beat anything that tastes good. I don't force people to dine in an ethnic place, for example, I know they won't care for. I happen to LOVE Greek food. I used to enjoy several good places in Astoria Queens. Now they are all gone and replaced with I don't know what to call it. This topic has been discussed here many times. It is unfortunately sad but true. Today, for me and my wife, we choose places like Thai, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Russian, Portuguese, Italian, Middle Eastern, and many more that I wouldn't even bother to mention to the in-laws because they would have a fit if they even heard that WE ate there. So I compromise and make suggestions for good eats elsewhere, just by chance they would consider, and we end up at a diner anyway. To further the story, a week after we dined for their anniversary we went for a late lunch/early dinner at the local diner near them, where they know them personnally. Just to spite me, my father-in-law ordered the small carafe of white wine (I had already ordered a coke) and his usual romanian steak, well done, this time with the side of veggies, since I had remarked that the veggies were really good with my steak in the restaurant, and he proceeded to make a nice meal, enjoyed by all, into a display of eating for an hour and a half - after we were already served. Pushing the point of how much he enjoys eating there. Slowly biting into each pre-cut piece of steak and slowly carving his water logged broccoli and slowly pouring and drinking his pear juice with flavorings wine-in-a-box elixir. I continued to be sociable, as always, ignoring his wifes questions to him, "Why are you taking so long to eat, you NEVER take so long to eat." What is it with diners? I just don't get it. Tue Mar 26 15:09:14 -0800 2002 1560119 0 David Pantol 5 1560203 Geesh, I agree with caviar in some of his points about your post. Overall, I think the diner thing is only a poorly disguised excuse for other underlying conflicts you seem to have with your in-laws. Tue Mar 26 23:15:45 -0800 2002 1560135 0 Maria 6 1560209 Meals are often flashpoints of conflict in families. Your in-laws sound very rigid and limited in terms of venturing away from what feels safe and familiar to them. Perhaps arranging get-togethers with them that don't involve meals would cool things off. What other kinds of activities do they enjoy? Movies--sports events--concerts--theater--?? Tue Mar 26 23:59:04 -0800 2002 1560203 0 zora 1 1560131 Full disclosure: I'm from New Jersey. Diners are as much a part of me as the clothes I wear. There seem to be two questions in your long post: 1) why do people like diners [with the added editorial that they don't serve tasty food], and the unwritten question, 2) why don't people realise that you, as a chowhound, know of better restaurants? First, the answer to (1): People like diners because they serve, for the most part, traditional American comfort food. They serve burgers, meatloaf, turkey, chicken, the usual stereotypically American stuff. They're cheap compared to La Maison des Morves in downtown Manhattan. The service, while usually tart, is good. The value is excellent - you can get your face stuffed, with complimentary "you want some more cawfee, hon?" on top - for $10 or under in most places. I strongly disagree with you on the taste question - but "chacun a son goût" (everyone has his own taste), and if you don't like diners, that's your own affair. I strongly suspect that your foodie reflex twitches when you order food at diners. I have friends who used to make the same mistake. You don't order shrimp scampi or steak at a diner - it might be on the menu but it just isn't going to be made well, because that's not what a diner is there for. If you stick to the diner usuals (burgers, fried fish, chicken breasts, open-faced turkey sandwiches, etc.) you might have better fare. Now, onto (2). You can't force people to be foodies. Many people dislike change and prefer to stay with what they know, which is the food with which they grew up. Your relatives were uncomfortable in the nice restaurant you took them too. That is going to colour their whole outlook on the dinner. If they're not comfortable going in, they're going to freeze up at the menu, choke on the descriptions, and choose blindly. People can be trained to try new foods, but it's a slow process. When I moved to Los Angeles (from the bland Midwest), I had to be convinced to try things like Vietnamese soups and Thai food. Trying to broaden your relatives' horizons is an admirable goal, but perhaps you should start smaller. Instead of a diner, take them to a steakhouse. Then maybe to a red-sauce Italian joint, etc. One small adjustment at a time. Other people have made the point that it was their happy occasion, not really yours. Many a time have I been held back in my chowhoundish frenzy by dietary pickiness - "oh, I don't like food that's mixed together" or "pasta? why should we go out and eat noodles?" - but if it's a celebration for something, I live with it. If it's truly terrible, I eat as little as possible and stop for something else on the way home. This needs to be an iterative process. If you impose your foodism on them, they will squeal as their paradigm is shifted without a clutch. Good luck and bone appétit! Tue Mar 26 14:34:00 -0800 2002 1560092 0 PRSMDave 2 1560139 Question, are you saying I don't order shrimp scampi or steak at a diner because *I* don't think that diners are there for that or that (plain) Diners are not there for that?(I take no offense to constructive critisism) On a business trip to the Boston area I discovered a lack of diners. Lunch at a diner on a business trip is a usual for me. I found twenty-four hour breakfast joints that were diners under disguise. I ate there. It's not that I don't like diners, I can't seem to find one that serves food prepared with care. It's a plate and go, like it or not. There is commercial here in NY that I find the epitome of diner attitude, in service and fare. I starts with a gentleman being served a sandwich that has mayonaise on it and his telling the waitress that he did not ask for mayonaise and she proceeded to remove the bread and scrape the mayonaise off onto the edge of the table. Thanks, but I'll pay for that NOT to happen. Tue Mar 26 15:26:56 -0800 2002 1560131 0 David Pantol 3 1560156 My opinion is that diners are not up to snuff on things like scampis... that's from direct experience. You must have had some serious service issues while eating in diners - I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't put up with service like what you described (I've seen that commercial, too. It annoys me greatly). If you have, in fact, got such service at diners, you ought to complain progressively more loudly until your complaint is resolved. I'm not sure what your specific objection is to diners - a "lack of care" may mean anything. Diners are short-order type places, Wolfgang Puck or Julia Child is not in the kitchen arranging things with a delicate hand, Emeril Lagasse is not standing near the door in order to give the food one last artistic "BAM!" I mean, it's a hamburger, for Pete's sake, how much care does it require to plate a hamburger and some fries? I've made some odd requests in diners and my food is almost always exactly the way I ordered it. I'm not sure why you have such bad luck. But, if you're willing to pay more for the extra service, more power to you. I consider diners great chowhound-worthy places, because the value for the buck is high, and the character of the diner is often interesting. Would I take my mother there for her birthday? Not unless she requested it. Tue Mar 26 17:18:59 -0800 2002 1560139 0 PRSMDave 4 1560669 You got it right PRSMDave. I love Frisco's Diner for all the traditional American breakfast foods, and for cheesburgers, onion rings and a diet chocolate coke. I love Arnie Morton's for juicy, flavorful steak. I love dim sum in Monterey Park. I love a good corned beef with slaw and Russian dressing or a good pastrami with chopped liver and a real piece of cheesecake. A true 'hound appreciates good food from all ends of the cost/cuisine spectrum. And you are right about 'gently' showing the heathens the virtues of different chow, I have been doing that with Mrs. Chino Wayne for 30 years. Mon Apr 01 00:59:44 -0800 2002 1560156 0 Chino Wayne 1 1560302 Dave, I definitely agree with you about diners. I'm sorry that some of the other readers had to criticize your motives, etc. While it may be great if everybody liked to try different foods, many do prefer food they're used to. I had the hardest time getting this guy to try some chap-chae (Korean vermicelli noodles with vegetables and meat). He said that he was just a cheeseburger man. And one of my coworkers will only eat "ethnic" food if it's greasy and salty. Personally, I've always hated diners -- I would only like them for breakfasts and maybe an occasional burger and fries. I once made the mistake of ordering ravioli there only to receive five pieces of frozen ravioli in a jarred tomato sauce (probably Ragu). Every time somebody suggested going to a diner, I winced. I do agree with one of the posters about finding better renditions of these foods elsewhere. But I guess diners do provide a good value for the most part. Wed Mar 27 21:49:24 -0800 2002 1560092 0 Jennifer J