288723 Sun Mar 17 17:35:49 -0800 2002 40 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1559247 I'd like to see the opinions of Chowhound visitors about one aspect of "good manners in restaurants". A friend of mine related the following story: We were in an ordinary Chinese restaurant--nothing very fancy or formal--in a mid-western city. We arrived at 7 for a 7 PM dinner with some friends who are usually 15--20 minutes late. I was very hungry, and at 7:20, I figured, I'll eat some soup to take the edge off my hunger. My boyfriend got annoyed with me, and said it was very rude to start eating before our friends arrived. I said, I wasn't eating, this was soup. What do *you* think? Is this behavior acceptable? Seems to me that good manners in a restaurant is "it's OK to have a drink while you're waiting, but that's all. Soup is food, and you do not start ordering or eating before your friends arrive." Sun Mar 17 17:35:49 -0800 2002 0 Howard-2 1 1559248 You were more than in your right -- your friends were rude by being so late. It was not only disrespectful to you, but shows their inconsideration of etiquette in general. Not only would I have started in on soup, but I would have probably started by ordering the entire meal. Sun Mar 17 17:54:27 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Etiquette Queen` 2 1559250 Her Royal Majesty the Etiquette Queen is perfectly correct. In addition to being rude to you, restaurants REALLY need to turn over tables in order to make a living, and such lateness can have a terrible impact on turnover. Twenty minutes is *barely* acceptable--a half-hour is quite rude. I've had friends who are habitually late meeting me at restaurants (and everywhere else!), and I tried giving an earlier arrival deadline and counting on them being late and therefore on time--no good. Doesn't work. What works is for people to honor their time commitments to the best of their ability. The foibles of public transportation/taxis/traffic must be taken into account. Is being early so horrible?? In any case, I think you're perfectly within your rights, Howard or friend of Howard, order soup and, yes, ten minutes later, your meal. Sometimes latecomers learn to change their ways when they have to skip their appetizer to catch up with you! Sun Mar 17 18:10:17 -0800 2002 1559248 0 Tom Steele 2 1559257 I agree. If, they were the host, though, would it be different? First rule of thumb: No guest is more important than your spouse. Second rule of thumb: If tummy growl louder than chummy, cry fowl! Sun Mar 17 19:41:14 -0800 2002 1559248 0 kc girl 2 1559262 Here, here, long live the Eitquette Queen. People who are habitually late, once their behavior has been established as habitual, don't deserve to be waited for. Don't wait for them, maybe they will get the message if it happens that a few times when they do make their eventual "entrance" they find that you have begun without them and are doing just fine, with or without their company. Sun Mar 17 23:02:02 -0800 2002 1559248 0 Chino Wayne 2 1559281 Not only would I have ordered my soup and the rest of my meal but, when I finished my dinner I would promptly leave the table, leaving my guests alone to finish their dinners, saying "...so sorry you were so late." Mon Mar 18 13:32:42 -0800 2002 1559248 0 Bill 1 1559254 I think you called it just right. We have some friends who are habitually late also. We often end up with 4 of a usual group of six, waiting for the final two. So we order drinks, and a couple of communal appetizers, then nosh until everyone arrives. I figure this usually ends up in a bigger bill and tip, which maybe compensates somewhat for the slower table turnover. Sun Mar 17 19:15:11 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Tom M. 1 1559255 Habitual tardiness of this sort is insufferably rude and disrespectful. And inexcusable. It is best not to dine with such people and instead plan other activities where punctuality is less of a concern. This is one of those bad character traits that tends to worsen as people age and give themselves more permission to take friends for granted and be rude to them. Sun Mar 17 19:30:19 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Karl S. 1 1559263 Speaking from the viewpoint of a habitualy late couple...go ahead and order! No offence taken, and none should be....not from my view point anyway...I humbley admite to being late to meetings with friends for dinner or drinks, and have no other excuse then a life long habit of doing so...no excuse, I really do try. Apologize profusley Sun Mar 17 23:27:22 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Joann Creekmore 1 1559266 I'm delighted to see general agreement on this. Good manners do not require the uncritical accommodation of those with no manners at all. I have great sympathy with a cerain English lord whose name escapes me who gave large dinner parties which began promptly at 8:00. Those who appeared at 8:01 were turned away at the door. Mon Mar 18 04:30:03 -0800 2002 1559247 0 John Whiting 1 1559270 I would say go ahead and order the whole meal if you want. But one quibble "I'm not eating, this is soup" .....huh? You WERE eating, but I think it was fine to start eating; wait a little while (not sure exactly how long, but 20 minutes is PLENTY, 5 would not be enough, somewhere in there). Mon Mar 18 10:17:05 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Peter 2 1559271 I tell some of these people to be somewhere at 6:30, knowing full well no one will be there until 7:00. I agree the lateness thing is rude (it's so attention-seeking, "look at me!!"), but some people you love so much in other ways that you're still willing to hang out with them. Mon Mar 18 10:40:42 -0800 2002 1559270 0 KathyR 3 1559294 I admit it: I'm a chronic late person. And its' not because I need or want attention. I really try to be on time, and sometimes, I am. I, like many others of my ilk, are poor time planners with slow learning curves. It's the "do one more little thing before leaving the office" syndrome, or trying to squeeze too much into too short a time. In this day and age there's no excuse for not giving the waiting party a quick cell phone call with an ETA if you're running late. I appreciate my friends' tolerance, and no, I don't expect them to wait for me to order, if I'm that late. Mon Mar 18 17:46:46 -0800 2002 1559271 0 LBQT 1 1559278 I have a friend who's habitually late, and it drives me crazy. To me, being chronically late is like saying, "My time is more important than yours. It's more important that I have time to pluck my eyebrows, finish this phone conversation, etc., than for you not to have to stand around waiting for me." This friend is part of a group of four of us who are all friends from college. Our new policy with her is, if she's more than 10 or 15 minutes late, we sit down and start eating. This can be complicated in NYC, where they often won't seat incomplete parties. Still, we get a table for 3 and figure she can squish in, since she couldn't bother to be there on time. And if we're meeting on a street corner or something and travelling elsewhere, we leave without her if she's not on time. After something like that happens, she tends to get better for a while. We thought about doing the whole, "Tell her the reservation's for 6:30 when it's really for 7" thing, but decided that just enables her selfish behavor. Mon Mar 18 12:43:00 -0800 2002 1559247 0 The Pie Queen 1 1559282 I concur with what everybody else has said about the rudeness of being late. I also think she might need to give some thought to her relationship with a boyfriend who is a self appointed etiquette cop. Mon Mar 18 13:38:47 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Plano Rose 1 1559296 Soup is usually considered an appetizer, and it seems quite fair to order an appetizer when your dining partners are 20 minutes late - it seems to be a logical thing to do, actually. Mon Mar 18 18:22:00 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Terrie H. 1 1559298 I've been on both sides of this, being early or on time and the unintentional 15-30 minutes late also. I'm more than happy to "buy" the whole meal for those I've kept waiting and to those that have started(which is quite alright) I profusely apologize. When I'm on time and the other couple is later than 15 mins , I ORDER, PERIOD! NO MERCY! I've made a much larger effort to be timely since the "he who's late buys" became the rule. Mon Mar 18 18:57:40 -0800 2002 1559247 0 russkar 2 1559305 The notion "those who are late pay for everyone's meal" is a very good one, I think--provided there's not a good excuse for it. (A "good excuse" would be something like "the car blew up" or "terrorists stopped traffic" or "there was an unprecedented traffic jam".) In the case I posted, I've found that that this occurred in a well-known city in the Rockies, and there were no traffic jams or other extraordinary occurrences. I have a friend who's an MD. I've known my friend for more than 30 years--he's my oldest, dearest friend--and as long as I've known him, he's always been late. I simply do not understand how he got through medical school and the early years of practice, with such peculiar notions about being on time. For the past several years, he's been more of a "consulting" psychiatrist, but in this capacity, he's always catching planes from place to place. I don't understand how he's able to get to his plane on time, yet not meet me on time. I make allowances mainly because he's such a good guy who I love dearly--but I would not grant such an indulgence for most other people. Mon Mar 18 19:51:41 -0800 2002 1559298 0 Howard-2 3 1559316 NO MERCY!! especially for a "consulting Shrink" he should know better and just think of the emotional damage he's probably caused you by being notoriously late. My tennis partner is a Kidney surgeon and if he runs to his beeper during a game, no problem. But in his case it's LIFE AND DEATH, for real. Believe me he thinks twice sometimes. Tue Mar 19 01:34:09 -0800 2002 1559305 0 russkar 3 1559321 > I make allowances mainly because he's such a good guy who I love dearly--but I would not grant such an indulgence for most other people. I'm with you, Howard. Even if he is a "consulting shrink," as someone else put it, maybe he was out talking someone off a building ledge! ;) But seriously, I'm not perfect and I'm sure I engage in some sort of behavior that drives friends nuts. I see no reason not to show some "mercy" for some lateness, within reason. Tue Mar 19 09:38:44 -0800 2002 1559305 0 KathyR 1 1559345 There is no explanation for the "chronically late syndrome"...but it is real. You just have to live with it, or get a new friend. They will never change. One of my best friends suffered from this since childhood. We made allowances because we valued his friendship. The saving grace is that those who suffer from this malais are very tolerant of those who start dinner without them...in fact, they usually apologize so profusely they give you a guilt trip. Tue Mar 19 14:26:31 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Jim H. 2 1559349 It takes all kinds. I was married for years to a guy who always makes everybody wait. He figured that his time was so valuable, it made no sense to show up on time, as he might have to wait if someone else was a minute or two late. It made much more sense to show up 20 minutes or a half hour late, that way he didn't waste any of his valuable time. Nobody else's time was worth anything, anyway. Tue Mar 19 15:10:30 -0800 2002 1559345 0 ironmom 3 1559366 I don't think its that simple...maybe there is a chowhound shrink on this board who has studied this problem. It also manifests itself in women who take forever to put makeup on, and men who can't shave in less than an hour. Tue Mar 19 17:18:46 -0800 2002 1559349 0 Jim H. 4 1559374 I think we should move this to the Not About Food Board but am not sure how to keep the thread or go about this. Actually, as a psycho-therapist it is that simple. I anticipate this being a controversial issue and don't wish to step on anyones toes or blindly categorise people. so I apologise in advance. While it would be inappropriate to say all chronically late have issues it is true that a great majority do. I can say this from over 15 years of working as a therapist and personal coach. As a matter of fact, as a coach it is a matter that comes up constantly and one of the good things about being the rare coach trained as a therapist as well is that I can help the person realize the why's and how's of their behavior as welll as guide them in making changes. . People who are chronically late break down into several groups. Some are the non-thinkers- those who just never focus and budget their time and schedule. These types are the "absent minded" and can and will change their behaviors when confronted about their pattern of lateness. They may just never have been confronted or else never were taught or figured out the basic skills of time management. Usually they have some personal issues that lead to these behaviors becoming survival tools, but they don't control their lives. The majority of late types consider their time more valuable than that of others. It is a lack of respect on a subconscious level, as well as a deep seated power and control issue. This can be due to major childhood issues involving abandonement, parental control or neglect, etc. It is interesting that most people who are chronically late have other issues as well. They are focused on self gratification and not others. By being late they are taking control of the situation as well as stating that they are the important one. As soon as they arrive late, attention is focused on them. By apologising for their lateness they downgrade it, as well as make themselves seem basically good and well meaning, because they show manners. In actuality the "good manners" are false, because someone with manners would never be chronically late. Personally I first became aware of this syndrome with my first roommate when I was a young adult. He would always show up late. One time he kept several people waiting six hours when going on vacation. This was a guy who was nice as can be, but always just "forgot" when he had to be places. He played the "absent minded genius" type to a T. People started telling him false times so to take his lateness into account but it just led to worse behavior. We eventually set a 5 minute time line and then would go about our plans without him. This didn't stop the behavior, he would just join late and contrive to make the situation all about him. Eventually all of his friends stopped including him, he lost several high level jobs, many relationships and a marriage failed. All from chronic lateness. Eventually in therapy he was able to figure out the issues of power and control relating to childhood abandonement and parental issues and overcame most of the problem. Tue Mar 19 18:17:48 -0800 2002 1559366 0 The Rogue 5 1559379 I am impressed. Tue Mar 19 19:39:57 -0800 2002 1559374 0 ironmom 6 1559400 Thank You ;-)> Wed Mar 20 08:45:24 -0800 2002 1559379 0 The Rogue 5 1559385 I like your analysis. I had a roommate once who I had referred to the company for a job. So this guy, and a second roommate, and I would carpool, two of us to a common job site in downtown L.A. and one of us to his job at USC, nearby. The guy who worked at the same place as me was chronically late. In the morning we would be ready to leave for the rather long commute, and this guy would still be asleep. So the other roommate and I would cajol him in to getting up, getting dressed and getting out to the car. We put up with this BS for probably a few weeks (he wasn't recalcitrant every day), but finally we wised up, and just started leaving him at home. The result was that he would then either get to work late, or not get to work at all. His manager, knowing the guy was living in the same house as me, would always come to me (I did not work for the same manager) wanting to know where the hell this guy was. I had no problem telling his manager that as far as I knew, still asleep in his room. Not surprisingly this guy ended up getting fired, and I moved out and lost track of him, but not before I had received the thousand buck award from the company for referring this Bozo in the first place. Tue Mar 19 21:45:54 -0800 2002 1559374 0 Chino Wayne 6 1559399 Thanks Chino. Sounds like you had a very similar situation and responded the only way you can that doesn't cater to a using person. Wed Mar 20 08:44:40 -0800 2002 1559385 0 The Rogue 5 1559393 May I be so presumptuous as to say that this is one of the best analyses of this syndrome I've ever encountered? If I felt the need of an analyst, I'd come to you. :-)> (That's a Freudian Smiley) Wed Mar 20 00:54:24 -0800 2002 1559374 0 John Whiting 6 1559398 Thank You ;-)> (That's the J. Forester trademark smiley) Wed Mar 20 08:42:12 -0800 2002 1559393 0 The Rogue 6 1559577 I guess the plot worked! Thu Mar 21 09:26:45 -0800 2002 1559393 0 Maria 5 1559410 This is NOT the only explanation. One other possibility is that the person is learning disabled. Speaking as someone who is LD, whose child is LD, who has an MA in special education and a PhD in Psychology, who is on the board of the learning disabilities association, and who has the opposite problem (I am always early).... There are people (I am one) who simply have tremendous problems estimating the amount of time things take. You would think that we would get it after a while, but we don't. For instance, I have been to Laguardia Airport maybe 100 times. I STILL get the amount of time wrong. Of course, some people who are always late are just jerks. :_) Peter Wed Mar 20 10:03:51 -0800 2002 1559374 0 Peter 6 1559417 I agree with you about LD later's (also add ADD and ADHD.) Usually these folks and their friends are aware of the problem and try to take it into account or learn to compensate. As for the jerks... who wants to waste the time. PS. I have that other problem too and am always early myself. Wed Mar 20 10:46:07 -0800 2002 1559410 0 The Rogue 6 1559472 I think that there can be a degree of "learned behavior" at work here too. I grew up in a family where we are about 10 minutes or so early to everything. My parents taught me at a young age that showing up late means that I am saying that the other person's time is less important than my own time and that that is bad. I am still usually early but my partner slows me down. We can be a good combination, my "let's get there a little early" combined with her "where did I put those keys?...and oh, yeah, I need my hat...where is that?" Wed Mar 20 15:17:38 -0800 2002 1559410 0 Jill-O 5 1559482 Excellent analysis, as far as it goes. But there is at least one important factor you left out: different cultural attitudes toward time. The dominent culture in America puts a very high value on time: we worry about wasting time, being on time, making the most of our time, etc. But many other cultures, including subcultures in America (the South, for example), place much less value on timeliness and efficiency and more value on other qualities (the niceties of social interaction, for example). To them, someone who breaks off a conversation or doesn't stop to interact properly with someone they know becuase they are going to be late is being rude. People who come from cultures with different values concerning "punctuality" and "wasting time" may understand intellectually that they are expected to be "prompt" but still not have internalized that value over the cultural values they were raised with. Wed Mar 20 16:18:06 -0800 2002 1559374 0 Ruth Lafler 6 1559548 What a great excuse for such rude behavior...I am "culturally tardy". Or might it be, "culturally inconsiderate". Wed Mar 20 22:52:09 -0800 2002 1559482 0 Jim H. 6 1559570 The niceties of " social interaction " include being on time in our culture. When in Rome! Thu Mar 21 07:17:02 -0800 2002 1559482 0 Gene 3 1560822 I didn't realize my husband had been married before. Tue Apr 02 16:47:11 -0800 2002 1559349 0 danna 4 1560850 I'm so sorry. Tue Apr 02 20:03:19 -0800 2002 1560822 0 ironmom 2 1559392 Alexander Pope dealt with such folk in a poem which included the couplet, Admits her faults, and yet she never mends, Because she's honest, and the best of friends. Wed Mar 20 00:45:55 -0800 2002 1559345 0 John Whiting 1 1559502 Check this story out from the L.A. Times, talk about the ultimate in being late.... Rogue- This guy really yanked their chains! Link: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000020389mar20.story Wed Mar 20 18:12:43 -0800 2002 1559247 0 Chino Wayne