288600 Thu Feb 28 11:16:51 -0800 2002 21 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1557914 How much is it reasonable for a restaurant to mark up the price of a bottle of wine? Last night we had dinner at Jean-Luc, on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. They had a bottle on their list for $28 that I recent bought retail for $7. Is 300% normal? Thu Feb 28 11:16:51 -0800 2002 0 Josh Mittleman 1 1557917 I feel that 100-150% is normal for an inexpensive wine. The rate should get lower the more expensive the wine. Anything more is major gouging. Thu Feb 28 11:40:39 -0800 2002 1557914 0 The Rogue 2 1558292 Referencing someone earlier, we fail to remember that restaurants are trying to run a business. With food costs, labor and real estate so expensive in the major cities, they have to make up for it on desserts and liquor/wine. The trade-off is with drinking laws people consume less so you have to nail them upfront. I would suggest everyone bring their own but then the price of corkage will go up. Mon Mar 04 13:14:57 -0800 2002 1557917 0 Mo Food 3 1558355 Sorry, I'm not susceptible to the poor-struggling-businessman argument. Obviously a restaurant charges more than cost for everything, and I'm perfectly willing to pay a premium for a well-prepared meal. I am not willing to be gouged for wine because some people use the price tag as a status symbol. Tue Mar 05 10:19:26 -0800 2002 1558292 0 Josh Mittleman 1 1557920 the GENERAL rule of thumb USED to be a 100% markup unless, of course, the wine was rare and ancient etc. Back in the 1980's, places started going to 150 % and higher, charging what the traffic would bear. This also allowed them to give a customer a "deal" on the price, suggesting magnaminity by the owner or waiter. the go-go years of the 90's saw two infamies: 200% --300% markups and the expansion of a scanadlous swindle regarding corkage fees in which the restaurant would search for an identical boittle to the one you proposed to bring it and then mark it up. Or, if they could not find the (for example) 1970 Ducru-Beaucaillou that your wife gave you as a wedding present, they would "guess" what it would cost if it were on the wine list--even for their regular customers! This infamy was supported by the happy throng of new diners enjoying economic power and learning the ropes. But the new mob never knew how the game was played the way the Old Guard did and so the noble profession of sommelier (and, indeed, that of cook in some places) became polluted with thieves and brigands. There has always been larceny in the "hospitality industry" and, indeed, some of the fun lies in the consumer knowing this (see, for example, the Ernie Byfield/Ben Hecht "golden caviar" story from the 1930's) but it has gotten to the point where the dining mob just won't object to Clyde Barrow as wine steward in John Dillinger's restaurant where Lucretia Borgia is trying to come up with a glitzy name for a trash fish submerged in a sauce that tastes odd enough to fool people but the real purpose of which is to diguise rot and hold the carcass until even a starving rat would refuse it. It should be noted that a wine merchant friend has said that the high prices restaurants post for the wines he sells them make the bottles look dirt cheap when you encounter them in his own store. He wins either way. Thu Feb 28 11:51:00 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Hazelhurst 2 1557931 My father manages a retail grocery store. Since he is part of a small outfit he has the latitude to make his own deals with the wine reps. He has always believed that volume of sales is far superior to fewer sales at higher prices. He regularly has the best prices in the county on many of the top wines. His customers become regulars because they don't feel robbed. Anyone that gouges simply offers more fuel to make him sucessful. Other than that I just had to say GREAT POST! Chow!!! Thu Feb 28 13:40:15 -0800 2002 1557920 0 Brandon Nelson 2 1557948 Oh, it gets worse. I was at Payards for lunch one day and overheard a wine salesman discussing with the manager what he had for the restaurant. He had some imported wines he was "discounting" at a couple bucks a bottle. Not a bad markup when they sell wines by the glass at 3 and more times that! That will beat 300% any day. Thu Feb 28 15:01:48 -0800 2002 1557920 0 saucyknave 2 1558054 The restaurant mark up is on the retail price, not the wholesale price, right? What's the wholesale to retail mark up? Fri Mar 01 13:44:57 -0800 2002 1557920 0 Nomi Lubin 3 1558064 The wholesale to retail mark-up can varry considerably from state to state. In some states there is a minimum mark-up so prices can not be below a certain amout. Some other states are "control" states, which means the state operates all retail outlets. These states sometimes have lower prices than their neighbors, but sometimes prices are higher because of the lack of competition. When it comes to restaurant wine prices it should be noted that there is often a difference in wholesale prices (sometimes as much as 25%) from restaurant to restaurant. The place I ran was very small and had little storage. I bought in small quantities and paid top dollar compared to the much larger place across the street that bought in (to me) huge quantities and got massive volume discounts. We both sold the wine for the same price (a 1.75 to 1 mark-up for me). If I could have marked-up at the same rate my neighbor did I might still be in business. Fri Mar 01 15:04:46 -0800 2002 1558054 0 Deven Black 3 1558091 No, since restaurants buy wine at wholesale, their markup is taken on that wholesale price. If I've misunderstood your question, let me know, and I'll take another crack at it. Fri Mar 01 17:42:37 -0800 2002 1558054 0 David Russell 2 1558267 standard markup for NYC retaurants is considered 2 1/2 x wholsesale..altho it varies at the extreme high and low ends of the price range.... that said, in the last five years, ive been seeing 3 & 4 times wholsale in a few places... Mon Mar 04 01:09:09 -0800 2002 1557920 0 fusilli 1 1557922 Absurd markups are not that uncommon in NYC, especially at some of the pricier places. It may sound churlish, but why not just order a bottle or glass of the cheapest drinkable selection and let them know you might spend more if you weren't being taken advantage of? One compensation for living in NJ: many good restaurants without licences (or corkage). Cheers, Joe Moryl Thu Feb 28 12:09:50 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Joe Moryl 2 1558024 This bottle was within a couple dollars of being the cheapest thing on the wine list. Fri Mar 01 10:25:43 -0800 2002 1557922 0 Josh Mittleman 1 1557923 Recently, we paid over $20 for a wine that sells at Trader Joe's for $2.99 (a good wine..not a great wine). I'm tempted to take a bottle of the cheap stuff and pay a $10 corkage, to prove a point. It has always been my understanding that for normal wine, the markup should be three times the wholesale price. It appears that most restaurants will have a higher markup on less expensive wines...less percentage on the good stuff. It does seem ludicrous when a bottle of wine costs more than an entre. But when you are rich...who cares? If the public ever boycotts overpriced wine, the prices will go down. Thu Feb 28 12:10:20 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Jim H. 2 1557941 Maybe you're talking about the Marques de Caceres rose'? One restaurant wine list consultant told me that she loves that for an aperitif wine. Trouble is, if she doesn't price it at $20 or higher on a list, no one will buy it. The standard mark-up for most places would put it at $15. However, experience has shown that demand DOUBLES for this wine when it's $25. Blame the public, not the restaurant! Thu Feb 28 14:38:09 -0800 2002 1557923 0 Melanie Wong 3 1557960 I know you are right. Where wine is concerned, you always are. I was referring to the Casaterra Merlot at our favorite Sebastopol French spot. About $20 was reasonable, and if the customer doesn't complain and is happy, who cares? It is absurd that I can take the same wine in, pay $10 corkage, and get by for $12.99 (less tax). Thu Feb 28 16:03:11 -0800 2002 1557941 0 Jim H. 3 1558032 And it should be noted that PERCEIVED VALUE plays a part in this. I am a wine rep, so I found this thread quite interesting, but as was mentioned earlier on in this thread, there are some people who will order an "expensive" bottle of wine to impress their guests... Remember: Always trust your own palate...drink what you like, regardless of price. And yes -- we do need a Beverage Message Board. ;-) Fri Mar 01 11:42:37 -0800 2002 1557941 0 Brook 1 1557926 Wine is the phallus of the meal. Men want to weild the biggest stick. I am FREQUENTLY rebuffed when I recommend a wine that isn't expensive enough. Dining out in the big leagues, which means NYC 3 + 4 Stars is so rarely about satisfying hunger or finding chowish deliciousness. We are the dining rooms for corporate money. It's all business and if what's going to close the deal is appearing nonchalant about providing free flowing cult cabs for your overseas clients, well then, the mark-up is no object. Thu Feb 28 12:35:45 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Fred and Wilma 1 1557930 Interesting feature in Crain's NY restaurant reviews is that they list the wine markup percentage. Thu Feb 28 13:32:44 -0800 2002 1557914 0 K. McB. 1 1557932 Restaurants are such a low margin business that many look at the bar as a cash cow, the perfect way to increase the bottom line. In my experience mark-ups seem to run 2-3 times on wines that retail for $20 or less. I feel privileged when it's 2x, ripped off when it approaches 3x. IMHO, restaurants that charge 3x aren't too interested in my dining experience, since at least for me, it discourages wine consumption, which should be an integral part of a fine meal. Thu Feb 28 13:58:17 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Mistermike 1 1557942 It's not a ripoff -- if you consent to it! In fact, you can let your server (who is only a messenger) what you might have chosen if the restaurant had not been so greedy. When I have an iced tea instead of wine because of this stupid practice, I am only out a nice incidental to the meal. The server (of course) and the restaurant lose much more by the restaurant's folly (though on occasion I gross up the tip to reflect what I would have paid for a decently priced appropriate bottle of wine). Thu Feb 28 14:38:25 -0800 2002 1557914 0 Karl S. 1 1557995 This thread is more evidence that Chowhounds deserve a beverage board. Thu Feb 28 20:08:03 -0800 2002 1557914 0 zora