288323 Thu Jan 24 21:30:09 -0800 2002 10 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1555163 An interesting issue was raised on the alcoholic beverages thread below: I have never figured out this thing about drinking cold sake - when I started eating japanese food it was always served hot, and people in the know pointed out the difference between regional types and that some brands were higher quality than others. Then, at some point in the last 10 years I think, people started drinking/talking about drinking sake cold, something that has never appealed to me. I think kinds of sake went on sale that were geared to this style of drinking. I lost my confidence in my discernment in this area and stopped buying the stuff. Can somebody explain what is really going on - has there been a japanese cultural shift or not - and suggest some good brands and types for both uses? Thu Jan 24 21:30:09 -0800 2002 0 jen kalb 1 1555169 Until about 40 years ago or so there really wasn't too much really high grade sake being made, and none of it was coming our way. Heating it certainly went (and still goes) a long way towards covering up rough, poorly made sakes. As you note, the last 10 years or so have brought us super premium sakes, really outstanding boutique ones with tremendous range and flavor nuances. I've only recently gotten seriously into sake myself, but have learned a whole lot about it over the last couple months. Sakagura and Decibel in NYC are great places to learn about them (although some have questioned the freshness of some of the sakes at Sakagura, the food more than makes up for it). For home consumption, the guru is Leonard Phillips at Ambassador Wines (1020 Second Ave), who offers an unparalleled selection and extensive personal knowledge. The sakes that first made me understand what the big deal is are the very fragrant Ginyushizuku and Daiten Shiragiku. I tried them one night at Sakagura and was just stunned into silence. The complexity offered by the sake when served cold wasn't something that I had ever expected. I've gone on to do a number of different sake flights and have been really impressed with the range of flavors and experiences that various makers produce. The staff at both Sakagura and Decibel are extremely knowledgeable and will guide you expertly through the learning process, including offering up some warmed sake when appropriate to the brand. Turns out that there are in fact some premium sakes that are designed to be consumed warm (not hot). Overall, I'd have to say that the best way to approach it as a beginner would be to go to either joint (Sakagura's my pick for the food) and let the server know that you're a newbie who wants to try out some sakes. They'll set you up with some picks that'll change your mind real quick. Have fun and enjoy! Thu Jan 24 22:07:42 -0800 2002 1555163 0 Dennison 2 1555176 is this a cultural shift in japan itself, or just a NYC thing? your comments fly in the face of everything i've seen in japan. fancy restaurants, and fancy soirees, invariably served extremely expensive sake, served piping hot. the japanese in my office, in fact, say they wouldn't be caught dead serving cold sake, except to close buddies. come to think of it, i'm not sure i recall seeing cold sake even in CHEAP restaurants. it was usually me at home just too lazy to heat it up. or young'uns at college/dorm parties. my colleagues have been over here for a few years now, tho, so if you are refering to a very recent trend in japan, i'd like to know. Thu Jan 24 22:50:39 -0800 2002 1555169 0 basil 3 1555180 I remember drinking cold sake in some of the better sushi bars in L.A.'s Little Tokyo in the early 1980s, served in wooden boxes, so this is not a new phenomenon here, and certainly not limited to NYC. Thu Jan 24 23:08:26 -0800 2002 1555176 0 Leslie Brenner 3 1555190 Basil, I think this is a cultural shift in Japan as well. I've been here for the last five years, and although I didn't seriously start drinking sake until about a year ago, it seems to me that drinking sake cool or room temperature is now the mainstream way, with hot sake considered a little bit more old fuddy-duddy. What Dennison wrote is in line with what I've seen here, as well. Most places I go to drink sake have little or no choice in what to drink hot, but a huge range of cool/room temp stuff. In my sake classes, we've never drunk it hot. I'm surprised that you ran into very expensive sake served hot--I always thought very expensive equals daiginjo which equals unsuitable for drinking hot (the flavor is destroyed). Maybe this has to do with how crappy the economy is now, however! I'm not claiming to be an expert, though, just reporting what I see. Back on to the topic of hot sake, if you ever run into "Yamabuki iro no o-sake" from a brewery called Kamo Izumi, it is fabulous served hot. Cold, it is so strong and acidic that I find it difficult to drink, but heated up, it rounds off those edges... Fri Jan 25 03:06:09 -0800 2002 1555176 0 Rachel M. 4 1555218 I lived in Japan in 1987. My sake experience was limited. Didn't take any special course or go to special tastings. Although I now read with interest about the different brands/types I still feel I don't know enough to make intelligent choices at the liquor store. But in the social situations in Japan when I had to opportunity to drink sake, it seems that those who took their sake and food seriously usually drank it cold or rather cool. In fact, Rachel, in your very informative posts about sake, have you mentioned the recommended temperatures for drinking sake? In one small neighborhood sushi-ya near Tokyo I received a higher level of acceptance by saying that I preferred cold sake over warm. They said that since I was a foreigner they had figured I would order it warm. In part I had made my choice by noting that the older guy usually quietly sipping his drink at the end of the bar did not order it warm. After this success I got the impression that drinking sake warm was popular but looked down upon by those who were discerning about what they drank. A couple of times it was explained to me that warming helped compensate for lesser quality. But if you had good sake which you wanted to savor, cool was the way to go. On days it was cold and you wanted something to help warm you up it you might order warm sake and the cheaper stuff was considered appropriate for those occaisions. Since living in the US whenever I buy some sake and it's not so good, I sometimes find it more palatable to drink it warm. I have read some commentaries that said some sake was made for drinking warm. So I may be wrong to assume that it was "the cheap stuff" or past its prime. wray Fri Jan 25 13:39:16 -0800 2002 1555190 0 wrayb 3 1555204 The phenemenon has made its way down to Baltimore - sake martinis and such at after-hours clubs... that kind of thing. More highbrow than Smirnoff Ice and SOMETHING had to replace the infernal Cosmo.... Fri Jan 25 10:21:34 -0800 2002 1555176 0 Shmingrid 4 1555274 In SF, the only places that serve sake martinis are establishments that don't have a full liquor license. Frankly, I view sake cocktails as a sad marketing attempt to keep customers that want mixed drinks. Fri Jan 25 19:35:13 -0800 2002 1555204 0 Rochelle McCune 1 1555170 Okay... I'm buying sake at a wine store to have at home and I usually warm it up. Do I spend $7 or fork over $17 for the other bottle. What's the difference? Thu Jan 24 22:14:13 -0800 2002 1555163 0 michaelA 2 1555222 As a very novice sake "sampler"... I've discovered that there are really fine distinctions between sake's, and like fine wine, they are all a matter of palate. Recently, a our favorite Sushi restaurant, we were waiting for our table so ordered a bottle (yes, a bottle) of sake for 4 people. The server asked about our taste in wine, and recommended a $30-ish dollar bottle. It was like nothing I've ever tasted - clean, crisp, somewhat floral (jasmine, in particular), and with a hint of what I thought might be lychee-like. It was so incredibly complex, I finally understood that serving it hot (or too cold) would have decimated the nuances. I just looked back at their posted sake list, and can't find the one we had. But when I go back, I will ask. Fri Jan 25 14:13:21 -0800 2002 1555170 0 Fatemeh 1 1555309 If you really want to learn about sake then go to Saka Gura Sake Club, 211 East 43rd Street, Basement 1, New York City, 10017, Tel: 212-953-SAKE, Fax: 212-557-5205 for one of their Kikizakekai (Sake Tasting Events) they have them apx every 2-3 months. You can call and give them your address and they will put you on the invite list. They usually charge $18-20 for a two hour session (7pm-9pm or 9:30pm-11:30pm the next one is on Monday 2/4/2002) and serve about 100 premium (normally $50 up to $200+ a bottle)sakes at a tasting. The average person can try about 15 or so sakes in that time and still be coherent... (or you can do like I did once and do a back to back double session from 7pm-11:30 and try 43 and have to be carried home with a big bleary smile on my face.) Bring lots of cash for their great food to help you make it through the tasting still standing. They have some fantastic snacks such as the best sunomono I have ever had, fantastic seared scallops in wine,and tons of unusual appetizers that you won't see many other places. The tasting events are lots of fun, worth a trip, and you will have fantastic conversation with the other participants. You have to reserve a spot at a tasting right away and much in advance as they limit the number of participants. They sometimes allow you to be on a waiting list for cancellations. They take it serious and call you the week and sometimes also day before the event to make sure you are coming and to hold your reservation. If you are running late that evening to an event you MUST call them and let them know or you will lose your reservation. It's a great scene, old pros and newcomers discussing flavors and styles. Saka Gura gives out info packs and pens so you can take notes and instantly learn about the four major sake styles and learn which you like best. Enjoy and have fun, Jonathan Sat Jan 26 10:06:37 -0800 2002 1555163 0 The Rogue