288254 Tue Jan 15 19:35:03 -0800 2002 26 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1554423 (This thread is moved from What's My Craving NY) Great post, Katerina, on one of my favorite subjects. Thanks! I favor Chinese greens, especially Pi Lo Chun (aka Pan Long Ying Hao), Dragon Phoenix Pearls (a high grade of jasmine pearls), and many oolongs, especially Keemun Hao. One small technical point: I believe a number of Chinese blacks do get overly astringent with oversteeping, as do some (but not all) Chinese greens. Tue Jan 15 19:35:03 -0800 2002 0 Leslie Brenner 1 1554425 I, too, buy my teas on the internet, also from Upton and Plymouth. I find truetea.com to be ridiculously expensive, and when I tried to buy in order to test the site, they were out of almost everything they had up. Another good site is inpursuitoftea.com. I particularly like the design, and their "one minute tea tip," available by free email subscription is very informative--usually a very interesting article on the history, preparation, etc. of tea. My favorite pot (like you, Katerina, I have many...) is a Chatham English porcelain model I bought from Upton, available in serveral sizes; all come with infuser basket. Many people swear by Chinese Yixing ware. I'm asking for one for my birthday. Tue Jan 15 19:41:56 -0800 2002 1554423 0 Leslie Brenner 2 1554428 Sorry to flood this board, but I have to correct myself, since Katerina is too polite to correct me in public! Trueteas.com is the same as inpursuitoftea.com. The overly pricey one is called something else entirely, and when I'm feeling less brain-dead, perhaps I'll think of it. Thanks, Katerina! Tue Jan 15 19:53:22 -0800 2002 1554425 0 Leslie Brenner 1 1554426 Well, if you steep them for an hour they will get a little astringent, but really, most high-grade Chinese black teas (that's really what I meant, not green teas) are quite forgiving in terms of steeping times. Try steeping a Darjeeling for seven, or even five minutes though, and see what you get! A very bitter tea, that's what. It happened to me quite a few times. Tue Jan 15 19:44:33 -0800 2002 1554423 0 Katerina 1 1554432 I have moved this here as Lesley suggested. But it IS long. I am in such a good mood today, I'll just post here something about a few of my favorite teas, which nobody asked for, but anyway. Some of these might be good even for people who watch their caffeine intake. An unusual low-caffeine tea that I've been drinking a lot lately is the Japanese Genmaicha. It's essentially Bancha (a standard type of leaf green tea, as opposed to matcha, the powdered kind) mixed with roasted grains of rice. This gives it a heady, popcorn-like fragrance, not very "tea-like" at all. The color is a beautiful yellowish green, and the aroma is so evocative that this tea even works for me as a bit of a meal substitute (well... more of a "meal postponement agent"). But the lingering flavor, once you finish your cup, is that of the tea leaves. Use water below boiling point, and steep briefly (2 mins.) It's VERY good for you. I find that the best types (based on Sencha, a bettter grade of green tea) are sold in small sealed bags, about 2oz. each, at Japanese foodstores, but I've bought decent Genmaicha in bulk, too. A type of black tea that seems to be relatively little known (undeservedly!) is Yunnan, from China. (That despite the fact that Yunnan province is the cradle of the tea culture, and the oldest tea tree grows here.) A good Yunnan has a compex, layered taste: it's "warm" and biscuity, a little malty, but underneath there is a fragrant spiciness reminiscent of black pepper. Unlike Indian teas, China teas will not become bitter after prolonged steeping (so if you are new to tea, they are pretty "safe"), and most also take a dash of milk pretty well. I love Keemun (the other famous Chinese black tea), and Assams and Darjeelings etc., but a great Yunnan is a transporting experience. I've been meaning to try the Yunnans from the Imperial Tea Court (www.imperialtea.com), pricey but supposedly top-notch. But the Yunnan Royal Gold from specialteas.com isn't half bad either (last year's lot was great, but is gone now). And finally, I thought until about two years ago I could never "get into" jasmine tea. I never liked the stuff served in Chinese restaurants, it was always either watery or bitter. But then I discovered higher grades of jasmine tea (Yin Hao, Chueng Feng) and I couldn't believe the difference. These teas are incredibly subtle, only very very slightly astringent, with a clean, "green" taste; the jasmine fragrance is full but not overwhelming (the really good kinds of jasmine tea don't have jasmine petals IN them; they had been added and removed numerous times, and finally removed altogether; only the fragrance remains.) The whole experience of drinking these jasmine teas is - for lack of a better word - transporting. I find that in the middle of winter a pot of this tea will make me feel like I'm in a lush, green garden, with a waterfall nearby and Chow Yun Fat at my side... For the true sensualist, buy the Yin Hao pearls, brew them in a glass pot and watch them unfurl. Mesmerizing. BONUS TRACK: Do you like chocolate? Well then you might well like Keemun Mao Feng. This tea is usually produced as a green, but over the past few years they (the smart Chinese) started processing it for black tea as well. It is smoooooth, rich and sweet... Also, the Golden Needle (grown in Fujian) is very chocolate-like, with a deep, intense flavor and aroma, no bitterness whatsoever... and beautiful to look at... they have it at www.holymtn.com. A fine tea deserves a fine teapot. (So what if I have six or seven...?) For many reasons, I recommend the Tetsubin (Japanese cast-iron pots). They are beautiful, nearly unbreakable, retain heat amazingly well, and (important!) often come with a steeping basket, which is an absolute must for proper tea preparation. (Unless you are doing it Gong-fu style... but I digress.) Tetsubin are not cheap, but you can always tell yourself that it will be a "family heirloom passed down for generations", blah, blah, blah. But really: they are great. A good source is, again, Holy Mountain: www.holymtn.com. OK, anyone got any questions? (Such as: And which kinds of Oolong do you like? What should I serve with tea? etc...) My post No. 2 - resources: I have mentioned some teas without adding resources: Superb jasmine (as well as other) teas can be obtained from www.plymouthtea.com. Another good place, for all kinds of tea, with a somewhat limited selection but high quality in everything is www.truetea.com. The largest selection of teas I have seen anywhere on the web (but it might be overwhelming for someone who is new to tea) is at www.uptontea.com. The kings of Chinese teas are www.imperialtea.com. Now remember, everyone offers samples and sample collections, so you don't have to buy much if you are not sure whether you'll like the tea. Why do I shop for tea on the Internet? I have found the quality to be better than what I find in stores in NYC; this is a coffee town. The tea needs to be fresh, and companies that sell a lot tend to have fresher, and better-stored tea than shops that sell only locally. I never buy from people who sell tea AND coffee, because it's impossible to completely avoid "aroma battles". Guess who wins. And I don't work for any of these companies. Wouldn't mind a tea job, though. Tue Jan 15 20:49:31 -0800 2002 1554423 0 Katerina 2 1554436 Katerina, Thanks for your post, I had a tea that sounds identical to the one you described as yin-hao pearls. One of my Chinese colleagues brought a box in and I've loved it since. He himself didn't know the name but the literal translation on the box was "very high quality tea" and nothing else, so I've been on a search since. Interestingly enough the batch he had also had tiny dried rose petals which further accentuated the aroma, one of the best I've ever had. Do you know of any stores selling them? Tue Jan 15 21:54:15 -0800 2002 1554432 0 SG 3 1554438 Never mind found it at your recommended site http://www.imperialtea.com Tue Jan 15 22:04:53 -0800 2002 1554436 0 SG 2 1554450 Nice to read such a passionate rhapsody on Tea! I just came back from visiting a Taiwanese tea place in Flushing(no, not Ten Ren) where the owner refused to sell me his top tea for fear of spoiling my future experiences with less-than-perfect tea. This "Gong-fu" tea(or old man tea)style of drinking tea is so very finicky that it's very much like doing a live performance, where there's never an exact repeat of the previous show. In that way, the Japanese green tea are much more forgiving and more readily available to achieve when you're not in your own house. One of the main reason being that the water temperature one gets in work place lounges tend to be too cool for oolong, but just perfect for the Japanese green tea. It's true what you say about jasmin tea, where the best type doesn't have the petals in them. I've read also that Beiping(in the old days) produced the best jasmin tea, and that they had a particular type of jasmin that they cultivated just for tea-making, and that if/when they add other types of jasmin due to shortage, the regular customers can right away detect the difference, and would complain. And when you go to Shanghai, you wouldn't want the local jasmin tea, rather they're better at joo-lan(literally "pearl-orchid", but I don't know what it is in English)flower tea;in Fouzhou, you'd want the narcissus flower tea...etc. I've always been curious about the Yunnan Pu-er tea. In Flushing that day I saw a disc of 35 year-old Pu-er tea for sell. I've read that when prepared properly, they age to over 100 years, and is better than any anti-acid pills you can take, besides tasting amazing. That's something I've not tried, yet. There are so many types of tea to try, but I'm still stuck at the high mountain teas of Taiwan, the best of which are like brilliantly cut diamonds that gives a different shade of taste and fragrance with every little change in the tea-making process... Wed Jan 16 01:11:19 -0800 2002 1554432 0 HLing 3 1554537 I've tried Pu-er, and man oh man, is it weird. I'm still waiting for someone to explain the appeal, other than its health benefits. Some say it's a tea for coffee drinkers. Anyone? Wed Jan 16 19:03:17 -0800 2002 1554450 0 Leslie Brenner 4 1554540 Its pretty simple, I drink pu-er because I like the flavor. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. Hey, some freak out there likes Hamburgers on Chocolate Chip Bagels! ;-) I have heard the "tea for coffee drinkers" line before, which I totally don't get. If you want coffee, drink coffee. If you want coffee and can't drink it (for health reasons?) - find a new drink you can love, which may or may not be pu-er. Wed Jan 16 19:23:53 -0800 2002 1554537 0 Rochelle McCune 4 1554549 Apparently pu-erh is great with oily foods. But for a robust brew, I like tie3 kuan1 yin1 (iron buddha) from the Fujian province. Wed Jan 16 20:44:43 -0800 2002 1554537 0 Limster 4 1554596 pu-erh is "musty" almost - a very earthy taste. it's for people who like, perhaps, very strong-flavored mushrooms, or pungent cheeses, or dark, bitter beers. it's got an evocative, "transporting" quality. the flavor takes me back to my parents' summer house. like it or not, the flavor is unforgettable. Thu Jan 17 11:57:30 -0800 2002 1554537 0 sc 5 1554632 Hmmm. I love pungent cheeses, the stinkier, the better. Love strong-flavored mushrooms. Ditto very bitter beers. But pu-erh hasn't done it for me--so far, anyway. Perhaps it's an acquired taste. Thu Jan 17 17:41:44 -0800 2002 1554596 0 Leslie Brenner 3 1554614 Where is this place in Flushing that wouldn't sell you the tea?? I've been dying to find a place other than Ten Ren to buy tea in the NYC area...I don't like to buy tea online, as I'd rather have the opportunity to sample or at least see/smell it before buying. Btw, i'm all for Yixing pots - they say if you season them long enough, you should be able to make a pot of tea just by pouring plain water in the pot! (Mine aren't at this point yet though...) Thu Jan 17 14:25:51 -0800 2002 1554450 0 flywheel 4 1554618 I'm not sure now where to reply to your post as this place is in Queens. It's call Lu-Yu, (yes, the name of the famous Chinese tea lover)and is on 137-01 Northern Blvd. It's a small place with lots of clay teapots on display. I eventually got the tea I wanted, reassuring him that I was drinking oolong tea from Lu Gu("deer valley") in Taiwan at the age of 9. Sort of like a thing you put on your resume to show that you've been around...:)After a while he made a pot of his number 1 tea for me to try. His friends who were gathered around for tea at a beautiful wood-carved tea table all grew quiet and listened in. One of them had his nose twitching, trying to catch a whif of the good stuff... That tea is of the lighter, fragrant type, harvested in the Spring. It's amazing the flowery scent you get from just tea leaves. It is grown wild in high mountains. The owner said that the pickers have to be roped and lifted to pick the tea leaves. I've also heard about the tea pot becoming a source of tea. It's a nice goal to work towards, although you'd have to have designated teapots separating the Spring tea and the Fall/winter tea.... Have fun! Thu Jan 17 14:51:36 -0800 2002 1554614 0 HLing 2 1554675 your post was a pleasure to read:). one of my favorite teas is Lapsang Sonchang - id guess from the name that its chinese but im not sure. its got a smokey flavor and, steeped by itself, can be very strong. i like to mix it with another black tea to balance the smokiness. its great to drink on a cold winter night. give it a try. Fri Jan 18 11:31:16 -0800 2002 1554432 0 grouchy_chef 3 1554808 I have a pot of Lapsong Souchong most mornings - great stuff. Sun Jan 20 17:26:47 -0800 2002 1554675 0 Uncledave 3 1554859 Thanks! and yeah, I know Lapsang. I also mix it with other (Chinese) teas, as it can be too smokey. It's actually one of the first teas that got me hooked - I'd never tasted anything like that before. It's a little scotch-like, in certain ways, isn't it? Mon Jan 21 11:56:03 -0800 2002 1554675 0 Katerina 1 1554454 I haven't tasted that many Chinese teas, but among my limited repeitoire, my personal favorite tea is long jing (dragon well) that originates from Hang Zhou. One version I had (Shi Feng = Lion's Peak) was also fragrantly flavored with peanuts. Very enchanting. I never got past the amateur stage, but a couple of more serious tea drinkers managed to teach me a little bit about brewing with the tea sets made from brown clay. It can be quite an elaborate affair, where after brewing, the tea is transferred through a series of cups. (During brewing, the water that has just barely cooled below boiling point is used. For a given batch of leave, the first brew is discarded, and only the second and subsequent brews are drunk.) First to a "ping deng bei" (cup of equality). This is a large cup that holds all the tea from the pot once it has seeped for the appropriate length of time. This ensures that the entire brew will be identical and not have sat in the pot with the leaves for periods of time that vary with when the tea was poured. Also prevents overseeping. Next, it's poured into a little tall cup - "pin xiang bei" (aroma appreciation cup). It's just for smells, and the tall cup traps the fragrance. Then it's transfered to a cup the that resembles a little bowl for sipping (forgot the name of this cup in Chinese - I think it might be "ping chang bei" = tasting cup but could be wrong.) Some of these steps can be skipped - it is not unusual to pour the tea directly into the drinking cups. These cups are arranged in a circle and the tilted teapot is moved around with an anticlockwise motion to ensure that all the cups are filled at the same time and all cup will be uniform in terms of taste and tea concentration. (By convention this anticlockwise direction of movement is a welcoming gesture, clockwise is considered impolite, similar to a shooing gesture.) The discarded washes and the used tea leaves are often combined into a large bowl like container and is used to season the tea pot and the cups. I was told that after much soaking, the clay acquires a nice sheen. That's one way to tell if a person is an experienced tea drinker. Serious drinkers use different tea pots for different teas, because this soaking process flavors the pot as well, and can result in "contaminated" flavors. Wed Jan 16 03:22:54 -0800 2002 1554423 0 Limster 1 1554479 The tea-knowledge here is really astonishing, so I'll just add this: another great source for excellent tea is Todd & Holland, in Oak Park , IL. Their website is http://www.todd-holland.com. If you phone them - ask questions! The owner, Bill Todd, just knows everything about tea and travels to tea-growing regions around the world every year. If you're lucky enough to live in the Chicago area, this is a very special place to visit. I second the Chatsford teapot recommendation. The mesh filter is very convenient and makes wonderful tea. (those little tea balls are just - ugh.) I also have little 12oz Bee House pot with it's own filter which I use at work - loose leaf tea at work! hurray! By the way, if you're in the mood to try something a little unsual, have some Pu-Erh. It's a very polarizing tea - either love it or hate it. It's generally aged in such a way that it accumulates a little mustiness. The first thing most westerners say when they taste it is, "beach house". Link: http://www.todd-holland.com Wed Jan 16 11:41:25 -0800 2002 1554423 0 sc 2 1554563 Thanks for the tea thread! I have been a tea addict for many years, and am always on the lookout for something new and interesting. I am a huge fan of Pu-erh, too (my first thought was "fish")! I prefer black or oolong to green, and Indian teas to Chinese, although Ti Kuan Yin is a favorite. And I have to say that a strong, hearty Assam is my daily morning medicine. I usually order from Stash; I've visited many of the sites y'all mention, but haven't ordered from any of them yet. I have never been interested in herb "teas" but Numi has a great honeybush "Teasan" that has the full flavor and depth of a black tea, but no caffeine so I can drink it in the afternoon. :-) I also had never tried yerba mate until a friend brought me a gift from Tao of Tea in Portland, OR. I'm enjoying it, although it's a little delicate for my taste. The only reason I started drinking coffee was because I got discouraged when I could never get a decent cup of tea in a restaurant. Wed Jan 16 23:35:06 -0800 2002 1554479 0 LisaPizza 3 1554620 "...The only reason I started drinking coffee was because I got discouraged when I could never get a decent cup of tea in a restaurant...." While I love coffee as well as tea, I agree with you that it's darn near impossible to get a good cup of tea in restaurants, even the high-end restaurants that have started to offer good teas. It's almost more disappointing to order a great tea and have it brought to you ruined by careless preparation. Let's hope for the day when the care for tea/coffee/espresso making is matched to the care for the food. Someone should hire Katerina....(g) Thu Jan 17 14:58:35 -0800 2002 1554563 0 HLing 4 1554648 Yes, that's even MORE disappointing -- to go to an upscale restaurant that serves good tea, and have it ruined in the preparation. I have even tried asking the server to have someone boil the water, rather than take it from some "instant" hot water faucet or pot of water sitting on a hot plate. I've noticed that Peet's is very careful about their tea service. They put a timer out on the counter and use boiling water and the proper amount of tea per serving. Now if they could only stop using glass mugs. Ick. Thu Jan 17 20:16:54 -0800 2002 1554620 0 LisaPizza 5 1554652 Actually, while boiling water is appropriate for black teas, it's a problem for other teas. It will, for instance, ruin a green tea, for which the temperature of the brewing water should be considerably lower than boiling. Thu Jan 17 23:26:35 -0800 2002 1554648 0 Leslie Brenner 6 1554750 True, but I don't usually drink green tea, so I just boil away. I may let the water sit longer AFTER it boils for some teas, to cool down a little. Fri Jan 18 20:05:30 -0800 2002 1554652 0 LisaPizza 4 1554688 I started this thread in the hopes that perhaps a few non-tea-drinking folks will loook at it and think, Well, here's some people getting pretty excited about tea, let's give it a shot sometime! Because I believe that if there are more of us tea drinkers our there, we can start demanding decent tea in restaurants and hotels and who knows, one day we might even get it! I have recently spent a night in an expensive New England B&B with a great restaurant (that's why it was one night only; we ate the rest of the money.) When asked whether we wanted tea or coffee with our breakfast, we chose tea, upon which the next question was: "Will that be chamomile, Apple Spice, Berry Cocktail [or God knows what abomination] or Decaf?" I'm sure the manager thought they were being pretty fancy with their selection of four "teas". And this was Massachussetts!!! Apparently the British really soured them on the beverage in 1773... We had to have coffee. (I cannot stand those artificially-flavored, bright-red, non-tea beverages that some people refer to as "tea".) If I cannot get real tea, I drink coffee, which is therefore often. But I am still dreaming of the day... Fri Jan 18 14:31:01 -0800 2002 1554620 0 Katerina 1 1554658 Hi -- doesn't anyone go for English teas? We are very fond of anything done by Whittard, though we can't get them around here anymore. The best one is called Old English Fruits, and is flavored with Quince and Crabapple. We have two Chatsford pots, one of those beautiful little iron pots, and several silly pots. Oh, and one hand painted by an artist friend. Fri Jan 18 02:28:04 -0800 2002 1554423 0 Kim Cooper