Knife for Life

[Gourmando]

I'm wondering about people's experiences with different makes on high-quality chef's knives. I have had an 8" Henckel 4-star for about 10 years, and I still love it, but I'm wondering about alternatives.

[zora]

I asked Santa for a Global 8" this year.

[Suzanne Fass]

Just as I still search for the perfect blueberry pie and the perfect fried chicken, I search for the perfect brand of knives. I have many knives in many sizes from many makers. All have their plusses and minuses. I've got 3 Globals, but they don't fit my hand all that well, so they're not the most comfortable to use for an extended period(although they have a GREAT edge.) I've got a lot of F. Dick, received from culinary school, and dick is about how I'd describe them. Messermeister chef knives I really like -- relatively inexpensive, thin edge that sharpens up really nicely, and that big German rocking shape. My little Furi paring knife is sharp, stays sharp, feels solid and clean; but it was expensive (~ $36.00). 30-year-old Sabatiers (carbon steel, and therefore very high maintenance) are okay -- only okay (I don't much like the French shape). Ditto my stainless Henckels -- just okay. What I look for is a narrow edge and a comfortable hand-hold. That will be different for everyone. Check around as much as you can, wherever you are and whenever you travel. And remember that there is no one right knife brand for all knives.

[Jim H.]

You must realize that all major mfgers have various grades of cutlery. Except Chicago cutlery, all of which is mediocre. Usually, you can tell by the price. Henckles, Sabatier, Wusterhof all have 3 or 4 levels. Often the difference is the place of manufacture (I think Henckles Professional is made in Germany, the others in China) and so forth. If you can find a Japanese cutlery store, they have some beauties...but they are expensive. Made like samurai swords.

[Leslie Brenner]

There are also Japanese knives that don't cost a fortune. My favorite is a Suisen, I think about ten inches, that I paid about seventy bucks for.

[Lindsay B.]

Does anyone have any experience with ceramic kitchen knives. I saw some Ming Tsai knives advertised in Gourmet this month, and they look really neat.

[Adam]

I used one of the white blade knives. It has a weird edge - it's very sharp, but doesn't bite the same way a metal knife does. The main advantage is that you don't have to sharpen them, ever. While I'm told that they're quite durable (and the black ones more so), they feel pretty brittle, and I was afraid to whack it around like I would a good steel knife.

Also, I have a horizontal under-the-cabinet swivel knife block, so I would be afraid of the handle snapping off, if something fell on it or something.

I don't think they're worth the extra money, unless you absolutely need something that's zero maintenance.

[Brandon Nelson]

Bad news...

As with all knives they do lose their edge. You have to send them to the factory for sharpening. As of yet no home equipment is available for their maintenance. Any knife that claims to be zero maintenance is either a gimic or garbage.

Chow!!!

[Nicole]

I cook professsionally with Hoffritz which I only fing in Macy's Cellar. It's sold right next to Henckles, Sabatier and Global. All knives get dull so I take mine to Columbus Cutlery (on Columbus between Vallejo and Green, I think)

[iron frank]

I thought the Ming knives were also touted for their lack of discoloring of food? All knives need sharpening and the Chowmarket sells a damn fine knife sharpener from Morty.

Enjoy,
Frank

[Side Pork]

Well it all really depends how much you want to spend only to some degree then you're throwing money away and entering domain of collector's mania or status delirium: Like the Japanese Nenox Knives, a prime point of evidence; and Yes! They are gorgeous pieces.Make you drool and sharpen up like crazy, but do you want to spend $400-500?.

As mentioned previously, up into this thread,do check out the Japanese-Knife.com site. Not venturing into the disputatious, costly and rarefied world of the Main Line /Traditional Japanese knife (ie. Masamoto and Artisigu etc.) let's just cite some reasonably priced "Western Style" Knives.

As partner in Private Cooking Class Business for Advanced Home cook's and a speciality Knife Sharpening Service here in S.F.,here are our likes and dislikes, and what is "popular" with our varigated clientle. For your delectation or opprobrium: So knives, meant to be USED, not fondled or shown....and so having said that...Here we go...

The Best: 1.Masahiro Virgin Carbon Steel Line. (Japan); 2.Masahiro MV Series, Stainless Steel.

Made for both left and right handed cook's, and not all that much more expensive than other, comparable knives, but simply supernal. For example, the (240mm) 9 1/2 " Gyutou, Chef's Knife from knifemerchant.com, sells for about $95-100, and is simply nonpareil. Their (270 mm 10") to me, is the one essential knife.The Stainless Steel are a tad bit more than the Carbon, but nothing, and we do mean NOTHING, performs like pure Carbon steel.Yet we love the Stainless equally.

These knives, while looking just like all fine Western knives, are single beveled, like a Traditional Japanese knife at between 15º-18º. Try to get the Masahiro Catalog from Taiko Enterprises, [phone] or from Knife Merchant (1.800.714.8226) to really send you spinning out with Sun Ra. Unfortunately neither venture carries the complete line, so motor thy ass to Japan post haste! Note: Masamoto, the regnant name in über ultra Japanese cutlery, also has a Virgin Carbon line, but strangely the workmanship is not as fine, and the price is nearly double the clearly superior Masahiro line. Check out Masamoto budget lines at japanknife.com which also carries the fine Suisin "budget" line.

Many of our ( especially women clients) also like the Tsunoma 9000 Stainless line and go nuts over the sexy Kasumi line again available at (knifemerchant.com) and other online vendors.The latter have the round "Hocho" style handle which is very sensuous in the hand, almost erotic (if that is possible.) The Kasumi being beautiful to "look at" are destined to be the fashionable choice of the cool and trendy.Comparitively feel very light in the hand, yet seem good to me (Stainless steel.)

• Best German line: Messermeister Meridian or San Moritz Elite. (Stainless steel)

Forget Henckel's and Wustoff. Save yourself money on a far superior knife. Literally everyone who has used these knives unequivocally concurs in this assesment. Messermeister also will resharpen and hone the knives for merely the price of postage.These knives remain at prices which are absurdly low given the quality. That plus the 15º bevel and superior ease of sharpening. Aesthetically superior as well as functionally superior.

• Best "Cheap" Knives: Forschner Victorinox, Fibrox Handles.

These knives have been our class issue standards since we opened the business. Many of our students only use Forschner. Everyone can only love these knives. "Damn straight."(As Julia Stiles says in the film "Business of Strangers.")

• Worst Knives: Theirs Issard (France)

These knives, especially the so called "Au Carbone" line, are almost a sham, if not frauds.Old Carbon Sabatiers from the 1960's were the real thing. These knives do not sharpen like Carbon steel at all, almost to the point of being a different metal when compared to the Masahiro.Their "performance" quotient is exceedingly low, to the point of being useless. We feel like burying them out in the back yard for the bemusement of future generations.Deeply disappointed.

• Overated: Global.

• Old Favorites: Dexter Russell (American):

Especially their Carbon steel Chinese Knives. These are probably the best deals and bang for the buck you can find. Nearly ubiquitous in the trade.Also available in Stainles steel.

So...in conclusion...Masahiro Virgin Carbon all the way. In the world of the fallaciously so called "mass produced", non "artisinal" cutlery these are perhaps incomparable. And to really step out, checkout their top of the line Chinese Knife. Having sharpened, honed and stropped one once to the nadir of perfection it was able to cleanly slice through a fairly stubby carrot by simply lightly dropping the blade onto the carrot from about 1/2". Expensive little devil though...about $250.00, but the knife never ever once broke edge.

Favorite Knife tool:

Friederick Dick 2000 Steel: A must have. The sine qua non.

Friederick Dick 12" Oval, Polished Steel: Delicious overkill.

Sharpening Stone: Hon Yama Stone (Japan) about $800-1000. What can I say?

North Mountain Kitiyama Super Polish Stone $65.00

DMT Duo Sharp Diamond Whetstones: $125.00.The 10" x 4" size is ideal for Kitchen cutlery.

Also check out the wonderful The JapanWoodworker (www.japanwoodworker.com) 1.800.537-7820. Their low low budget Tosagata Hocho Blue steel Knives are among our favorites. You owe it to yourself to spring for their Usuba Vegetable Knife (Nikiri Hocho) for about $30.00. Trust me. You can get the stones (save the Hon Yama) their as well.

[katespan3]

Hey, Gang, anyone else read this post and think something's fishy? This is promo copy.

> Many of our ( especially women clients) also like the Tsunoma 9000 Stainless line and go nuts over the sexy Kasumi line again available at (knifemerchant.com) and other online vendors.

[wrayb]

Near the beginning of the post the person spells out their affilliation so that you can sort out who they mean by clients. A knowledgable post which is appreciated.

[Jill Bains]

More like shared enthusiasim than commercial subterfuge. I appreciated the honesty and the advice. Even if it was an "ad", so what? This post said more on the theme of the thread than all the previous tripe.

I certainly can see where egrigiously 'blowing your own horn' for mercenary reasons is usually distateful and dishonest. But if these thoughtful suggestions succeed in leading someone to a fine knife, and telling them where to find it, they have indeed succeeded.

If the poster had wanted to advertise he/she would not have mentioned three sources.And one final anecdote for the road. When I used to work in the profession, whenever we heard anyone was going to Japan, their phones were absued, literally ringing off the hook with one litany:

"Bring me back a Masahiro knife!" And that folks is no lie.

DUH!

Jill Bains.

[saucyknave]

I agree completely about the informative posting by Side Pork.

Further, as Side Pork doesn't SELL knives but only uses them while teaching or sharpening them, s/he can hardly be accused of shilling. The self-identification gave the remarks context.

[katespan]

Wow. Tough room. My bad, obviously.

[Side pork]

Yo! It all depends how much rust sediment has been imbricated on the blade.So it's all common sense, not science of the rocket. These knives are Classics and well worth the time to restore them.

1.Rub /scrub them with Bon Ami abrasive powder and a regular kitchen sponge, using the coarse side. Rinse the blade throughly. Set them aside to dry.

2.Use #180 or #220 Wet/Dry sandpaper and scrub until sheen is restored or significantly improved. Understand they will never look like "new", so get past this conceit. Buff with #320 snadpaper.Clean lightly with a little oil between sandpaper transitions, or use a tack cloth, (avaliable at any hardware store.)

3. Finish with #400 and #600 sandpaper.

4. (Optional). Take the knives into a Sharpening Service and pay to have the blade buffed on a wheel. The cost is minimal.

5. Rub preferably with Camelila Oil (Available from http://www.japanwoodworker.com) or any natural vegetable oil.

Then think how lucky you are to have these knives. Yo!

Link: http://www.japanwoodworker.com

[saucyknave]

Thanks Side Pork. Yes I do value them and use them all the time. They're not rusted, just mottled black and grey. I use cleanser on them from time to time, but never thought to sandpaper them. The 8" chef is the worst as it gets the most use and in my busier days may have sat a tad too long before washing.

Are there any good carbon steel knives still being made? I'd like to replace my little paring knives. (I think there are little elves that come in the night and steal them!)

I did get a Wustoff chef's a year or two ago. I didn't like the feel of it and it wasn't as easy to sharpen. My son's the beneficiary.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

[Dennison]

saucyknave, if you're interested in quality carbon steel knives, you may want to check out Wildfire Cutlery. I'm very pleased with the Thai Cleaver that was made for me last year. If you don't see a shape you like, Michael will work with you to custom design something to your specifications. Prices are fair considering we're talking about handcrafted artisan products.

Link: http://www.wildfirecutlery.com

[saucyknave]

Thanks. They're almost too beautiful to use.

[Side Pork]

I can vouch for the WildFire Cutlery Carbon steel knife, if not by having used one, but by a fast moving reputation of complete delight. (Thai Cleaver)

My partner ordered one a few weeks back. This knife is kind of becoming "legendary" among Professional cook's. The Web Site is terrific, with superior knife advice and no bull. The artist/forger promptly and kindly returns e-mail queries within a short period. Atisinal stuff.

This is worthy of total support. WildFire Cutlery!--The Carbon Steel "Holy Grail."

Our personal favorite Knife Sites on line:

• http://www.knifemerchant.com

These people are just wonderful folk, their service the quickest, prices the lowest, and their selection the most comprehensive that we have found. Good source for Japanese knives at reasonable prices. All around favorite and deserving of loyal customers. Please know that this is not a shill or a kickback scheme, but a deserving accolade and token of our appreciation. We have no commercial relationship with any of these sites we here recommend, except as customers and end users.I only hope, when financially feasible, that they will stock the ENTIRE Masahiro Virgin Carbon Steel and the MV Stainless line.

• http://www.japanwoodworker.com

Again superior service and great people. The whole Catalog is best viewed at catalog.city.com as the home site is not all inclusive. Widest selection of fine stones and good prices. Their print catalog a must have. Carefully selected range of mid to low priced Japanese knives.The Tosagata Blue Steel Hocho knives are great, exceedingly low priced values; simply personal favorites.

I can't remember who asked for a paring knife recommendation, but here is my current favorite, available from the above site: The Kansui 5", "Ink Pattern" Fruit Knife for $69.95. This knife is so soft and light that sensory pleasure, in addition to ultra sharpness, is a great part of it's charm. Much the same thing as the Japanese "Petty Knife."

• http://www.japanknife.com or (japan-knife.com).

Spectacular web site. Orgiastic. Don't get turned off by the plethora of $3000-4000 Traditional knives. You can get nearly complete, all three lines of Masamoto Carbon Steel knives from the top of the line Virgin Carbon on down, to a "budget" line. Pricey, pricey, pricey. Other good lines are the Suisin and the Tojiro, with the shake going to the Tojiro, a laminated knife, with a Carbon steel core sandwiched by Stainless. Ask for Ling, she is a sweetheart. They have a 1-800 # but I can't find it now, and curiously is not available on the website.

Anyway it beats bombing caves with Attack Choppers.

Link: http://www.knifemerchant.com

[saucyknave]

Wow, Dennison & Side Pork, what an endorsement for Wildfire and the Knife Merchant! Now if I could only make up my mind! I did think the Wildfire knives are remarkably reasonable for artisan made tools.

[Saucyknave]

I have some old Sabatier knives from "those were the days..." They still work great, but are an embarrassment to look at. Is there anything I can do to give them a face lift?

[Leslie Brenner]

Thank you, Side Pork, for taking the time to put together such a thorough and informative assessment! I'll certainly put your tips to good use.

[susan]

Sorry cant agree about the sabatier... First knife I bought out of college. still sharpens great, well balanced and has outperfored everything I've bought since.

[Kelli2006]

I have a 8" forged Hoffritz chefs knife that I received for a gift in 1986 and I was told that they are no longer in production. I like the semi-German shape to the blade, but I also love my carbon steel Thiers Issard knives.

[Adam]

Okay, yes, they do need to be sent back for sharpening periodically, but they don't need to be steeled (you'd probably damage the blade by doing so). However, PCD customers get free resharpening from Kyocera for the life of the blade.

[Cats]

Why?

[Gourmando]

Good question. I guess I'm always wondering if there is something better out there. Or perhaps I'm thinking of Christmas gifting...

[Brandon Nelson]

Global...

I work a produce stand and I have used a Global spear paring knife almost 5 years. It rocks. I can spend as much as 3 hours in a day working with this blade and I have no complaints. I have another for home use as well as a Global 8 inch chef. Solid workhorses. But, if they aren't comfy in your hand they won't be a pleasure to work with. Also, they hone out much better on a ceramic stihl than a metal one.

Chow!!!

[lucia]

About a year ago I switched from a much-used and beloved Henckel 4-star chef's 8-inch to the corresponding Global, mostly because I read Bourdain and thought it sounded like a good knife to have. After an initial breaking-in period, mostly because of the lighter weight and thin metal grip, I started to really groove on it. Now the Henckel feels like lead and the blade is comparatively thick, so the cut is not as fine. I also got the Global paring and small utility knives, but I don't use them much--they were almost free in the set of three, compared with buying just the chef's knife.

[Dennison]

Ah, knives, a subject near and dear to my heart. What's not to like? They're shiny, dangerous and beautiful -- the perfect marriage of art and utility. I can't seem to help the fact that my knife collection keeps growing, much to the disdain of many old-school cooks like my mother and the derision of some line chefs who swear by their old heavy F Dicks.

I started years ago with an 8-inch Wusthof Trident (that I still love) and have recently taken advantage of many online going-out-of-business sales to build a nice Global selection as well. I prefer the smaller Globals -- something about a really lightweight chef's knife just doesn't feel right in my hand. BTW, as others have posted, that's the best piece of advice you can get about knives -- TRY THEM FIRST! Everyone's got a different grip and comfort is really important, so make sure you hold various brands and cut with them before you decide. Compare it to your trusty Henckels -- if it feels better you might want to switch, if not why bother?

For me, an undeniable attraction is the visual appeal of many Japanese knives (www.japanese-knife.com for really nice ones). Globals have become quite widely available and come right out of a modern design aesthetic. Kasumi knives have a distinctive damascus pattern that is the result of repeated folding and forging of fine stainless steel into multiple layers as has traditionally been done for samurai swords. The entirely handcrafted Nenox blade that I'm currently lusting after has a curved wooden handle and is perfectly balanced in my hand. Speaking of handmade, I was finally notified the other day that my carbon steel Thai Cleaver from Wildfire Cutlery (link below) is finally being made after a four month wait. I can't wait to get it.

All of this of course has precious little to do with the actual food being prepared. I admit that all I really need to cook well is a single Chinese cleaver and a well-seasoned cast iron pan. I certainly don't need most of my knives or my cookware. The way I look at it is that most guests spend the majority of their time in my kitchen anyway, so I figure I might as well outfit it to my liking.

Link: http://www.wildfirecutlery.com

[Adam]

About a year ago, I got the 3-piece sets of Global and Meridian Elite (Messermeister).

I'm quite fond of the Global knives, but they're oddly shaped. I don't find them comfortable for doing lots of dicing or chopping (I think because of the lack of a bolster - there are Global knives that look like they'd do better with this), but they're very sharp and great for slicing. Of the three I have, I use the 6" vegetable knife most.

The Meridian knives are fantastic. They're solid, with a German shape, but with a Japanese edge. One really nice thing is that they have an abbreviated bolster, which makes it easy to sharpen or steel the whole length of the blade.

I really have nothing but good things to say about the folks at PCD for all kinds of kitchen stuff, but especially for knives.

Link: http://www.cutlery.com

[iron frank]

I find the balance and quality of the Wusthof Gran Prix edition's I own to be very nice. I hope to get an addition every Christmas so I can eventually be buried with a full set, just kidding. Their newish Culianar line with stainless handles looks pretty dashing as well. Has anyone held one or owned one?

[Chili]

I tried the Culinar chef's knife. It was certainly esthetically beautiful, but for comfort and feel I preferred my Grand Prix series.

[Christopher Oliver]

I like the traditional French carbons. My main
chopper is a Thiers Issard carbon steel 10" I got
at Pro Cutlery Direct. I also have a Global 8"
which I got for fruit 'cos I want an apple tart,
not a rust flavored one. With the exception of a
cheap serrated thing I got for cutting bread and
dividing cake layers, the knives I use are Global
or old style French. I got a Kyocera paring knife,
but the boring old metal knives seems to have a
better edge.

Any opinions of the ceramic veggie peelers?

[Alex Macfarlane]

Thank you all for your invaluable assistance. My brother, Gourmando, presented me at Christmas with a wonderful Global 20cm Chef's knife, and it has not, as yet, left my sweaty palm. Kudos and Chow!

[TheLazyDog]

I started using the Mercer Genesis knife line about four months ago. They are reasonably priced and are as good as anything short of high end Japanese knives. Prior to these I was using K Sabatier knives but after so many years I had grown bored. I had a few Wustof grand prix knives which are excellent but on the current series they used a horrible handle. The Genesis are equal or better than the Wustof. Could not be happier...unless of course I could afford the Shun!

[rerem]

While it's the same steel. I prefer the Forschner 10" Rosewood handle to the Fibrox. It's a bit more $..but not much and while looking better-also has a great feel and balance for a rather traditional handle. The thing with a Forschner is to lay down a steeper angle,around 15 degrees,like it was a Mac.

As a "Knife for Life" what Iv'e seen of the best Forged Wusthoff and Messermeisters, I'd guess they may last a few generations....however...I don't LIKE a heavy forged knife.

A bargain.....Kai-Kershaw 7700 CLAD 7". Only the 7" is done with the hard core VG 7, which kind of makes it a poor boy's Shun. VG 7 is basically VG 10 minus the cobalt, so,not quite as hard but maybe the sharpest $40 (or less) knife there is. All metal handle might remind you of Global but is a lot more comfy and will "adapt" to several grip styles remarkably well. Between a 8" chefs and a lighter petty,It's a knife for speed and agility and sharpness. Downside....they never made a bigger version.

Check out Mac. Sharp but not too expensive.