287817 Fri Nov 02 15:39:22 -0800 2001 31 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1550468 In a thread on another board, JasonW wrote: "Are you sure that degredation of beer due to light includes artificial light? I understood it to be sunlight only, which has many other wavelengths of light than a bulb can produce and is much more intense. I'd be surprised if anything can be damaged by the week flourescent output of the standard deli case. I'm also surprised to hear you describe Heineken in bottles as skunked-tasting -- I've always found it to be one of the more reliable bottled beers. In fact, I read an interesting Consumer Report blind tasting of beers recently, and they noted Heineken as one of the best, though they did slam Corona and Rolling Rock as being consistently skunked (clear and green bottles), as well as Amstel Light (brown bottle)." Jason-- I'm not a scientist, so I'm not prepared to argue the fine points, but the consensus among scientifically-minded beer people is that artificial light definitely does catalyze the hops into creating the skunky compound. My empirical experience has agreed. As for the flavor of Heineken and the quality of Consumer Report's taste testing (they recently rated Lays potato chips higher than Cape Cod, if I'm not mistaken), that's a determination we can all make individually. I didn't read CR's beer article, but since "skunking" is solely a function of light exposure, and light doesn't enter the equation during the brewing process, I'm having trouble understanding the distinction you say they made between Rolling Rock and Heineken, considering that both are in the hue of green glass which facilitates the skunking of beer. Fri Nov 02 15:39:22 -0800 2001 0 Jim Leff 1 1550470 Their critique of certain bottled beers were usually due to (they say) the way the beer was stored during transport. This included both exposure to light as well as refrigeration. I know they worked with several samples of each beer, and generally follow a pretty rigorous blind-testing format. The people who did the testing were listed as experts who could discern between flavor and skunkiness, but who knows. They did give top ratings to Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams and Anchor Steam, which seem right to me. I always did think Amstel tasted funny. Could anyone really have chosen Lay's over Cape Cod? Fri Nov 02 15:56:07 -0800 2001 1550468 0 Jason W. 1 1550471 It's always possible to use a specially-formulated hop extract that doesn't skunk, so it's hard to say what shuld be skunky and what shouldn't. It's well-known, for example, that Miller uses such an extract for its beers in clear glass. (I wonder if they use the extract if the same brew goes into a can.) Skunking is caused by specific wavelengths of light. Fluorescent light contains these wavelengths, but incandescent doesn't contain them, or doesn't contain them to such an extent, at least. I think a fluorescent tube is strong enough to cause skunking, but I would have to look into this with a more knowledgeable source to be sure. Fri Nov 02 16:06:02 -0800 2001 1550468 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1550503 There's an article in this week's Science News about beer skunkiness. Scientists treated beer with lasar light to study the chemical nature of the breakdown products which are perceived as skunky. It mentions that Miller is made with hop extract which is chemically altered to prevent skunkiness, while the brewer of Corona recommends that lime be used to mask it. Sorry, the article doesn't seem to be on line. Fri Nov 02 22:10:45 -0800 2001 1550471 0 ironmom 3 1550513 I've seen something about that article. I'm not technical enough to have been aware that the chemistry of skunking wasn't fully understood. I know that the process produces something called a mercaptan,which is the stinky stuff skunks emit. I asked Jamie Jurado at Gambrinus Co about the light issue. He said: Fluorescent light includes wavelengths which cause the skunking mercaptan to be formed. White light as in outdoors is much more effective at delivering the wavelength spectra...but most fluorescent lights, whether 'cool' or 'warm' or greenhouse will also cause skunking. Sat Nov 03 04:47:53 -0800 2001 1550503 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1550514 Oops. Typed too fast. That's Jaime Jurado, not Jamie. Sat Nov 03 04:48:55 -0800 2001 1550513 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1550511 Yeah, I know about the hop extract, but isn't there some sort of enzyme additive or something that can also make beer (relatively) skunk-proof, Jim? I just tried giving Pierre Jelenc a call for the low-down, but he's not answering (probably doing some beer "field work" right this sec). As an aside...I once tried hard to press Charlie Finkel into explaining why Sam Smith--in those clear bottles--NEVER skunks. He kept evading me. I really suspect they use some sort of additive, I think Jackson may have agreed with that speculation, but I'm not positive. Sure, they're big-flavored beers, but even so.... ciao Fri Nov 02 23:23:30 -0800 2001 1550471 0 Jim Leff 1 1550474 The article was actually quite fascinating -- it was from early Sept./late August or so, if you want to get your hands on it. One of the interesting little tidbits in there is the system Bud uses to make sure their beer tastes the same year after year. They actually keep samples from the sixties on through today frozen in dry ice, then slowly thaw one once in a while and compare it to today's beer. Fri Nov 02 16:26:56 -0800 2001 1550468 0 Jason W. 2 1550481 That's interesting, but it's my understanding that Bud has changed over the years, specifically that it has become less bitter. I have some data from Fred Eckhardt's book, The Essentials of Beer Style, saying 1981 Bud had 15 International Bitterness Units (an analytic measure of concentration of hop bitterness compounds) and 1987 Bud had 10.5 IBUs, with all other parameters approximately the same. Fri Nov 02 17:13:47 -0800 2001 1550474 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1550490 Jim, we had this same discussion in much more depth beginning on 8/7/01. You were wrong then, and you're still wrong now. I don't have time to go over the irrefutable points one more time, but before you spout off please review the previous discussion, look at the article in Consumer's Report, and then explain how a beer in a sealed cardboard case can get skunky from light!! Jason, you got it right! Fri Nov 02 19:00:24 -0800 2001 1550468 0 e.d. 2 1550492 What did Jim say in his latest post on the subject with which you disagree? Fri Nov 02 19:12:03 -0800 2001 1550490 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1550510 Ed--you seem pretty emotionally involved with the issue, so I don't care to discuss it further with you. Lord knows there's enough to get huffy and stressed about these days, and discussion of beer just doesn't belong in that category, IMHO I should note, though, that the very purpose of this site is to provide a forum for people to "spout out" on food/drink matters, right or wrong. You can disagree with someone, but that needn't stop the discussion. NOBODY has the final word here. ciao Fri Nov 02 23:15:41 -0800 2001 1550490 0 Jim Leff 3 1550518 It is not that I have an emotional attachment to this issue--I really don't care. At the moment I'm not drinking beer at all, and Heinekin's has never been my favorite What does disturb me is that you have completely ignored a full and diverse discussion of this very issue that we had about 3 months ago. It makes me feel like the only opinions on this board that you respect or remember are your own. And I am disgusted that you still have not taken the time to read the original article in Consumer Reports, but that has not prevented you from pontificating about it. And no, I don't believe the same folks tasted the beer as tasted the potato chips. Sat Nov 03 10:40:37 -0800 2001 1550510 0 e.d. 4 1550519 Ed--I didn't ignore that thread, actually. I did, however, ignore Consumer Reports, since my colleagues and I in the beer world are the people Consumer Reports go to for their information. But even if Consumer Reports constituted the end-all/be-all of beer knowledge, I'm extremely puzzled as to why my not reading an article you think I ought to read would "disgust" you. And I don't understand why my opinions constitute "pontification". Don't I have the same right as anyone here to opine? Even if I wasn't a beer writer with 15 years experience, whose opinions are taken seriously by top experts like Michael Jackson, Jim Dorsch, Steve Beaumont, Tom Dalldorf, and Jon Hansell, and who is friendly with (and has toured and tasted) most of the top breweries in this country and Europe? Listen, I'm not dismissing YOUR right to opine (in fact, I'm the guy providing you with a podium to opine from!). Why would you so angrily and indigantly dismiss mine, even if I didn't have those qualifications? In any case, it's good to know that you're not emotional about this! I'll leave you the last word. I'm out of this discussion entirely. This is no fun at all, and if I wanted to have non-fun I'd put on CNN. ciao Sat Nov 03 12:57:47 -0800 2001 1550518 0 Jim Leff 4 1550522 I read Consumer Reports beer ratings and found them absurd. I don't remember the specific ratings, but I think anyone who knows beer would disagree with the findings. I certainly makes me have even less respect for that publication than I already did. Sat Nov 03 13:59:45 -0800 2001 1550518 0 mistermike 5 1550526 I agree the findings were wacky in a lot of instances -- but when you do truly simultaneous blind tests, not influenced by price, packaging, environment, etc., and where you can compare one beer immediately to another, I think you can get what seem to be off-the-wall conclusions. I'd like to try a blind taste test one day and get to the bottom of it for my own opinions. Has anyone here ever done their own blind tastings? Sat Nov 03 16:04:55 -0800 2001 1550522 0 Jason W. 6 1550527 I've judged some beer competitions blindly (as well as lots of other food/drink blind tastings). True that blind tastings can lead to weird results...but not this weird. The more experienced the judges, the less chance of getting stuff spectacularly wrong. But there are certainly times when results are spectacularly surprising, because conventional opinions turn out not to be based in actual taste of things. I just tasted about 135 different potato chips in a series of blind tastings, and found that a fairly common brand I'd always taken for granted (I knew it was GOOD, but...) is absolutely amazingly wonderful. It's the Archie/Veronica, Archie/Betty syndrome. The subject of blind tastings is a whole topic in itself. Sat Nov 03 16:18:51 -0800 2001 1550526 0 Jim Leff 7 1550532 At the risk of getting raked over the coals, I'll say that my husband was pleased to see Busch beer get a high rating from Consumer Reports. We also buy the expensive stuff, and my husband also likes good dark beer. However, a lot of times, we just buy whatever is on sale. Infact some of our more pretentious uppity grocery stores don't even carry Busch, probably because they'd rather sell us something more expensive. It took us awhile to find it (at Payless and Safeway), and it's not bad. Was it subliminal messaging to us that we now think it is good? On another blind taste note, I saw on a cooking program (I think affiliated w/Cook's Illustrated) they did a blind tasting of bacon. I was suprised to find the winner was Oscar Meyer. Now I buy Oscar Meyer. I enjoy hearing results of blind tastings. Sat Nov 03 18:04:43 -0800 2001 1550527 0 Leslie T. 8 1550536 You know, I've never tried Busch Beer. I'll try it sometime, though. Sun Nov 04 00:49:04 -0800 2001 1550532 0 Jim Leff 9 1550542 Tastes like Bud, with less flavor. Not a favorite of lovers of "real beer". Sun Nov 04 08:27:08 -0800 2001 1550536 0 ironmom 10 1550567 " Tastes like Bud, with less flavor " - How is that possible? I can't imagine anything with less flavor than Bud. By way of disclaimer, I lived in the St.Louis area for a while and came to discover that I have certain philosophical differences with anything related to Anheiser-Busch, as a product or corporate entity, and the local adoration of same. Mon Nov 05 08:53:35 -0800 2001 1550542 0 Smokey 11 1550574 I don't know if they still make it (as I don't like or seek out watery beer), but I clearly remember that Busch Lite was the official beer of that Expo/World's fair they held in Knoxville, TN about 20 years ago. (See, I remember it more clearly than the event.) It tasted like Busch cut with 50% water, and it was the only beer available on the site. Mon Nov 05 10:23:45 -0800 2001 1550567 0 ironmom 11 1550578 As a 'popular priced' beer, Busch probably contains more adjunct (i.e., cereals other than malt) than the 'premium priced' Bud, and that adjunct is pretty likely to be corn instead of the rice they use in Budweiser. So, it makes sense that it is a bit less flavorful than the King. Mon Nov 05 11:52:06 -0800 2001 1550567 0 Jim Dorsch 9 1550545 Jim, even though my husband will sometimes drink Busch, and consumer reports gave it a high rating, I would not recommend it to you. Sun Nov 04 11:24:18 -0800 2001 1550536 0 Leslie T. 6 1550541 I've attended a couple of blind tastings at which one was required to identify ten beers, working from a list of the beers during the tasting. It's extremely difficult, and a score of 4 is really good. I've also done a couple of blind tastings on the stage of the Brickskeller in Washington, DC. In both instances I displayed my naugahyde palate (I think that naugahyde line is subliminally stolen from Calvin Trillin), but both times displayed a single flash of brilliance to show I wasn't a complete idiot. Sun Nov 04 07:55:00 -0800 2001 1550526 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1550572 On beer, skunkiness, and blind taste tests: My husband loves Yuengling porter--Yuengling is IMPOSSIBLE to find in Georgia, so whenever I'm in Delaware visitng family I always get him a couple cases from Atlantic Liquors in Rehoboth Beach. He always tells me to make sure I don't bring home already refrigerated cases, because, "as everyone who knows beer knows," if beer is refrigerated and then returns to room temperature and then is re-refrigerated, it skunks. So in June I was in DE and got him a couple cases--both brought out to me ice cold. No, no, I told the friendly and helpful clerk, I can't take my husband this beer because if it warms up it will skunk. No, no, he told me, That is a prevalent myth among beer afficionados, and it is NOT TRUE. This beer will taste fine. Fearing my husband's wrath, and desiring to prove him wrong about something, I decided to buy the beer but NOT tell him it had come chilled. I thought this would be a good opportunity to test his expert knowledge. I am pleased to report that we have almost finished those two cases and not one of the beers was skunked. I then told my hub the truth and he was, well, humbled. Any comments? Mon Nov 05 10:07:53 -0800 2001 1550468 0 stella b 2 1550579 This is indeed a myth, and unfortunately, some commercials for Anheuser-Busch's 'born on' dating reinforced it. As we've been discussing, skunkiness is related to light exposure. Also, note that by the time you see a package of beer in the store, it's almost surely been refrigerated before bottling (because this keeps foam down), then kept in a warm wholesaler's warehouse and possibly put in a coldbox by the retailer. Mon Nov 05 11:58:09 -0800 2001 1550572 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1550601 Yeah, along with "darker beers are stronger", this is one of the top beer myths. But there IS one temperature issue: high temperature storage (even 80 or 90 degrees, if left for long enough) can "cook" a beer. With ales, it produces a telltale sickly-sweet beety flavor/aroma. but more importantly, Jim, can we come up with a way for Stella to mail order her Yuengling Porter (a great beer for chinese food, by the way, 'cuz it has an undercurrent of sesame and is not too roasty/chocolatey)? Mon Nov 05 14:12:07 -0800 2001 1550579 0 Jim Leff 4 1550605 Yes, while beer cookery is intriguing, we don't need to cook the beer we drink! Of course, many beers are cooked briefly (i.e., pasteurized) before packaging, and Yuengling is probably one of them. Yuengling has had a brewery in FL for a few years, so I wonder if they have plans to distribute in GA. Perhaps Stella should call the brewery (in PA) at 800.888.1829 to inquire. Mon Nov 05 14:37:31 -0800 2001 1550601 0 Jim Dorsch 5 1550616 Well, I'll be. Yuengling in Florida? That don't seem right. My husband and I went to the ORIGINAL brewery, the OLDEST CONTINUALLY OPERATING BREWERY IN THE US, in Pottsville, PA, a few years ago, took the tour, had some samples. Fun. I'm married to a PA man who thinks everything northern is superior to everything southern--he's right in the case of Yuengling beer. When we took the tour they sure hadn't opened their Florida brewery yet. I'll have to look into ordering. Thanks, dudes. Mon Nov 05 17:27:10 -0800 2001 1550605 0 stella b 6 1550623 You won't be able to order, because breweries are required by law to sell to wholesalers, who are required by law to sell only to retailers. But you can ask where you can get the beer. Yuengling bought a Stroh brewery in FL a few years ago when Stroh exited the beer business. And they just opened a second PA brewery, just outside Pottsville. Mon Nov 05 19:13:22 -0800 2001 1550616 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1550820 ...blind taste tests are amazing things, everything you're sure you KNOW gets shot down. I recommend them hugely - I would say as a party game, but things get heated during taste tests. Scary taste-test revelation thread, anyone? Thu Nov 08 02:46:01 -0800 2001 1550468 0 Nils