287815 Thu Nov 01 21:35:18 -0800 2001 44 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1550407 Just wondering if there are any vegetarian chowhounds on these boards. I fear that I'm one of only a couple veg-heads here, and that I won't be understood properly if I post. Sometimes I don't want to ask for restaurant referrals or veg. products (although I have once or twice, with pretty positive results) because there can be a perception with meat-eaters that we all survive on lettuce, brown rice and tofu (not that there's anything wrong with that. . . . Or that vegetarians eat fish and chicken. . . I'm a chowhound, too! I live to eat! I like good food! I just don't want gelatin, meat stock, lard, fish or critters in it. And the veggie message boards do tend to lean toward "health food." Which I like, but not all the time. :-) Okay, so are you out there? Thu Nov 01 21:35:18 -0800 2001 0 LisaPizza 1 1550410 Yep, we're here! You'll find almost the whole range of eaters on this site (haven't run across any strict vegans, but you never know who might be lurking out there...) I myself might be termed an ex-veg-head, since I eat fish now, but I am still with the no-gelatin no-meat-stock program. I find my fellow 'hounds pretty sophisticated on that score, non-judgemental (with very few exceptions) and quite willing to help if possible. Most of them enjoy delicious vegetarian food and know where to get it, so don't hesitate to ask! Thu Nov 01 22:04:31 -0800 2001 1550407 0 C. Fox 1 1550421 Chowhounds come in many breeds... The common goal is love of great food. No one cares if you choose not to eat something for any reason. I am not a vegetarian. My aunt was a STRICT vegan for the better part of a decade. Her younger sister is current eating a meatless diet. That is never a problem. Glad to see you made some noise on the boards. Welcome! Chow!!! Fri Nov 02 02:22:35 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Brandon Nelson 1 1550428 If you search prior threads, you'll see there are lots of us, and that we've even suggested a separate Board, although bigdog (and I now agree) declined, believing this would be limiting. I'm probably more conscious of the health issues only because when I started eating this way a long, long time ago people who claimed to know about nutrition claimed I couldn't possibly get a balanced diet. But you'd get a good chuckle if you suggested to anyone I know that I limit myself to health food. So, ask away! Of course, there are lots of things I'd love to try but avoid because being really adventurous as a Chowhound means eating stuff, if it's delicious, without necessarily knowing what's in it. Fri Nov 02 05:52:16 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Janet 2 1550497 I hear you about being adventurous. It's really the only drawback I see to being a vegetarian -- you can't just dive in and eat whatever is put in front of you. But after a while you get good at figuring out where you can probably go and what you can probably eat, and it's not such a chore. I'm still WAY more adventurous than my non-veg friends! One of them won't go to ANY Asian restaurants, period! Fri Nov 02 19:40:12 -0800 2001 1550428 0 LisaPizza 1 1550448 There are plenty of vegetarian 'hounds! Vegetarians often care about the quality of the food they eat (and by quality I mean flavor and preparation as well as healthfulness) because what they eat is something they've considered carefully and about which they have consciously made decisions. Sure there are fewer things we eat and in practice we end up behaving like picky eaters, but that doesn't mean we don't seek out delicious food whenever we can. - VF Fri Nov 02 11:56:25 -0800 2001 1550407 0 VF 1 1550463 I was a vegetarian for about 12 years before switching back. My sister is still a vegetarian. I remember making and enjoying potato chip sandwiches with fluffy white bread, mayo, thin slices of cucumber and tomato in our vegetarian days....mmmm It's difficult to find inventive chefs who can prepare wholesome vegetarian meals as well as his/her non-vegetarian dishes. It's definitely a test to distinguish the full-spectrum chefs from the lob-sided ones. I think we can benefit so much from vegetarian chowhounds' feedback, as it would add a dimension to the merit of a particular chef and his restaurant. Please DO post your opinions!! Fri Nov 02 13:29:35 -0800 2001 1550407 0 HLing 2 1550496 You make a great point. . . Sometimes I want to comment on a restaurant, but I figure that I can only talk about the vegetarian stuff, and that I wouldn't be able to give a full review. But the truth is, I get a very different perspective of restaurants because 1) I ask a million questions before I order anything :-) and 2) I don't tend to eat the stuff that people are paying the big bucks for. I'll tell you one thing -- when I get a server who can tell me right off the bat which soup doesn't have any meat stock in it (if there is one. . .), I know I've found a winner! Fri Nov 02 19:36:27 -0800 2001 1550463 0 LisaPizza 3 1550502 LisaPizza (cool name, you know.), bring the reviews on! Not all of us want meat and spuds or fancy schmancy meat based sauces every time we eat out. I lean very much toward veg based dishes often when I eat out; in fact on vacation have gone weeks without meat. The fresh, inventive fare of vegs only is a wonderful tonic and taste bud resuscitator, plus great chow. So, please be bashful--no more! Your insights will be happily received. Keep on posting! Fri Nov 02 21:18:32 -0800 2001 1550496 0 berkleybabe 4 1550504 Are you the Lisa of Lisa's Pizza? Fri Nov 02 22:17:24 -0800 2001 1550502 0 ironmom 5 1550507 Oh no! There's a place called Lisa's Pizza? Shoot, I didn't know I was stealing someone's name. . . No, I am not that Lisa. Fri Nov 02 23:06:27 -0800 2001 1550504 0 LisaPizza 1 1550467 Many hounds are vegans, vegetarians (some, perhaps, are fruitarians), etc. Many went through a "phase" of the same before returning to full or partial omnivore status (and may yet have more "phases" to come). Many of us have dear ones who are and we have taught them how to cook delicious vegan, etc., food. The only limitations I would say in the hound group would be (1) people who eat limited diets because they view food as something to be controlled or as an enemy of sorts (very unhoundish), or (2) people who want to preach against omnivore eating (ditto). I also think it unhoundish to deride vegan, etc., diets. Fri Nov 02 15:38:16 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Karl 2 1550515 Don't know if I should tell tales out of school, but some vegans are no nicer to lacto-ovo vegetarians than they are to the rest of the world. I was at an Indian food demo at a veggie conference last year where the vegans up front, horrified that cheese was being used in the recipe, started lecturing the poor chef before demonstratively walking out. The raw foodists don't do a lot of cooking, but would have been just as closed-minded with the ordinary vegans. Because, when it comes to this stuff, you can't be too extreme. I tried to respect those around me, wore leather free shoes and everything, but there are those who would condemn the use of a film (as opposed to digital) camera because, well, you know where film comes from, don't you? Though I've been a vegetarian since before most of these folks were born, I have never lectured anyone beyond explaining what I want and don't want in a meal. Sat Nov 03 06:44:59 -0800 2001 1550467 0 Janet 1 1550478 there are literally several hundred million indians who don't touch meat/fish - even eggs; indian vegetarian cooking is by necessity fabulous. and as a practical nmatter, good south indian restaurants should give you some welcome relief, no? Fri Nov 02 16:54:05 -0800 2001 1550407 0 howler 2 1550487 Indian vegetarian is super. Here's an excellent south Indian vegetarian cookbook. Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9625935274/qid=1004742387/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/103-3519618-9008603 Image: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/9625935274.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif Fri Nov 02 18:10:14 -0800 2001 1550478 0 Chmayo Joe 3 1550493 Thank you for your cookbook referral. I LOVE Indian food and I do feel that it's one cuisine where I can always find plenty of delicious options to choose from. I cook Indian food quite frequently, but unfortunately we only have one Indian restaurant in SB, so I don't get to try different regional food or cooking styles unless I travel. Fri Nov 02 19:26:19 -0800 2001 1550487 0 LisaPizza 1 1550495 Wow! I really want to thank you all for your supportive responses. I was a little afraid of coming across like a vegetarian food snob, but I can see that you all understand where I am coming from. I appreciate so much not being judged for my eating and lifestyle choices! As I will not judge meat-eaters, having been one for most of my life! After 12 years, though, I doubt I will be going back . . . I am always amazed when someone says they were a vegetarian for 12, 15, 20 years, and then went back to eating meat! Fri Nov 02 19:31:16 -0800 2001 1550407 0 LisaPizza 1 1550618 I am vegetarian in practice but not in theory. I love meat but I don't like to eat it. The ravages of gastrointestinal distress during third world travel have made it difficult for me to digest meat well. Nonetheless I still eat well in general and don't eschew the occasional meat serving, on a really special occasion, maybe. The biggest problem I have is that the vast majority of people I know are meateaters and it is almost ALWAYS at the center of the meal when I eat at their homes. Nobody cares what I eat, of course, but I also don't like to make special requests, nor do I like the idea of bringing my own food to a dinner party. Hm.. Mon Nov 05 17:42:43 -0800 2001 1550407 0 stella b 1 1550621 I just don't think you can be both a vegetarian and a chowhound. Part of being a chowhound is the willingness to try just about anything. A chowhound can love vegaterian food and most do. However, vegeterians are just too limited in the gastronomic breath. Vegetarianism is an awesome choice for whatever reason and is a great way to appreciate some of the best of what food has to offers. Mon Nov 05 18:58:17 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Shoeman 2 1550627 Okay, enough is enough!!! I haven't weighed in on this issue because I really don't see any merit to it, but.....I haven't eaten meat or poultry for 26 years. I DO eat anything that swims, and I consider myself a chowhound of the highest order, by any standards, as well as just about the most adventurous eater I have ever met, excluding, of course, certain people in this community!!! My main thing when I go to a foreign country is to learn to say "no meat", in as many dialects as possible, but I have eaten dumplings fried over a cast-iron drum on a roadside in Szchechuan province, and fish tacos on the beach in Costa Rica for breakfast. I eat the untranslated things on Korean meus that the waiters warn you aren't for white people.(turned out to be raw skate in gochu hang...) and anything that involves fermented shrimp in any cuisine. I like natto. The sushi chefs at my favorite sushi bar smile, because they know I'll try anything. I have taken a bus into scarey neighborhoods in Rome to find De Franco, the signless all-seafood prix-fixe menu fish house that only locals know about. I have probably had more adventures that revolve around food than I can remember. People don't know I'm a vegetarian because I don't stick it in their faces; if I can taste meat in a broth, I don't eat it. If I find pork in my dim sum, I remove it, or chalk it up as my once-a-meal dim sum error. I'm certainly not judgemental enough to think that people don't know food if they don't eat, say uni, or sushi in general..It's a shame that you are. Mon Nov 05 19:49:02 -0800 2001 1550621 0 galleygirl 3 1550628 And by the way, even tho I don't eat them, I know where to get the best Peking Duck in Boston, the best barbecue in Kansas City, and where the tripe man sets up in Florence!!!!!!!! Mon Nov 05 19:52:11 -0800 2001 1550627 0 galleygirl 3 1550631 A wonderfully argued defense and, rabid carnivore that I am, I agree with you 100%. One point though--a peeve of mine that is more semantic than chowish: If you eat seafood, you are not a vegetarian. This seems indisputable to me. Fish ain't vegetables. Your hound credentials look pretty impeccable, though. Mon Nov 05 20:42:53 -0800 2001 1550627 0 Steven Stern 4 1550633 You're quite right...pesco-ovo-lactarian?? I just hear so many people rabidly claiming to be vegetarians, then it comes out that they just don't eat red meat...And thank you for your reply; it gives me the chance to add I ate perceves in Lisbon before I knew what they were--I just saw a shellfish I had never seen before, and pointed!! I think I'll go back to my bowl of seafood-peanut congee now... :) Mon Nov 05 20:53:07 -0800 2001 1550631 0 galleygirl 3 1550660 I'm not being judgemental of vegetarians, which you are clearly not. In fact, I practice vegetarianism 95% of the time, which precludes me from calling myself a vegetarian. However, I wouldn't hesitate to step into Peter Luger's. "Chowhounds are driven to deliciousness, period,..." I have taken Jim's words somewhat out of context, but it sums up for me what being a chowhound is about. You can't be a music hound and refuse to listen to jazz, even if you prefer classic rock most of the time. Galleygirl is a food enthusiast, adventure seeker and an awesome poster. However, her food limitations do not embody the broader scope of what I feel being a chowhound is all about, IMO. Tue Nov 06 11:01:55 -0800 2001 1550627 0 Shoeman 4 1550662 I've been restraining myself from replying to this thread since it has so clearly digressed from what true chowhounding is about, which is FOOD, but this is just starting to get silly. I'm glad that people take such pride in being a "chowhound", whatever they feel that might be, but to start using a label to isolate others is missing the point entirely. We can argue forever about semantics, some of us better than others, but we would then all miss out. We are a community that loves food and everything it respresents. We all have our distinct food preferences, physical allergies and cultural or religious dictates. None of these preclude any of us from being active members of the chowhound community and all are welcome. There's a lot of good food out there -- do we really need to waste our time with oneupmanship about who the better chowhound is? How's that line go? Oh yeah, "he who knows, doesn't talk, he who talks, doesn't know." All I know is it's hard to argue when you're eating something of true deliciousness and maybe that's the whole point. Tue Nov 06 11:20:51 -0800 2001 1550660 0 Dennison 5 1550666 Nicely put. Chowhounding is about chasing deliciousness wherever we can, using discernment in our eatingg, not taking good food for granted, and being willing to go out on a limb and try new things. Being willing to try or eat anything that is theoretically edible or delicious to some people is not a chowhounding requirement. The willingness to push ourselves in new directions and to find and eat the best within whatever limits we may impose on our diets--whether due to doctor's orders, faith, ethical choice, or whatever-is the essence of chowhounding, I think. Tue Nov 06 11:53:29 -0800 2001 1550662 0 Caitlin McGrath 6 1550669 Thanks, Caitlin and Dennison. I wondered for a moment if I should just throw in the towel and not bother coming back. But I can see that most people here will welcome me and not question whether my " chowhound credentials" are valid. I think I can decide for myself whether or not I'm a chowhound. :-) Tue Nov 06 12:06:08 -0800 2001 1550666 0 LisaPizza 7 1550672 Glad to see you're still with us, LisaPizza -- I'd hate to see you chased away by a loud minority. I look forward to your future postings, as far as I'm concerned the more viewpoints the better for all of us. BTW, love your name -- have you thought about opening up one of those free webmail account so that the moderators and/or fellow chowhounds can send you private messages of encouragement? Tue Nov 06 12:17:01 -0800 2001 1550669 0 Dennison 8 1550688 This is exactly how these posts get out of hand. I admit that my orginal post was edgy and controversial. I was trying to stimulate a conversation with my chow friends about the boundries and limitations of our chowhound pursuits. Yet the same people anyways choose to be thin skined and take every word so personally. We never learn. I said "eat just about anything". I never said "dog" or "long pig." Why do we have to always take these things to far. Why do you have to look on the dark side. Why do we disect every word and try to find the worst in it. My post has been refered to as "silly", "shameful" and "judgemental". We could pull this conversation off in a bar, but not here. Truely shameful. And now that we have learned nothing, lets put our fingers away and distroy another topic. Tue Nov 06 13:09:16 -0800 2001 1550672 0 Shoeman 9 1550697 Shoeman, the same problematic debates recur over and over again to much the same effect. I'd turn your statement around. We all--including you--have seen previous threads knocking vegetarianism explode. So why do the same people always feel a need to post "edgy and controversial" postings on the subject, then feign shock when they have the intended effect of inflaming people? Discussing "are nuts in cookies wrong?" is funny. Discussing "is vegetarianism wrong?" is just dumb. Let me try to draw this episode to a close the way I have the LAST four or five times we had this same dreary, fruitless discussion. Chowhounds are picky. Very very picky. We have all sorts of preferences, agendas, beliefs, hankerings, compulsions, and aversions. We have deeply-held reasons and motives re: food--more so than non-hounds--and we make distinctions ALL THE TIME. We are far LESS likely than others to just eat anything...selectivity is what it's all about. Declaring yourself a vegetarian means caring a lot about what you eat and willingness to take a stand. That itself is a chowhoundish sort of action. It may not be a stand you or I would take, but we all have our stands, and vive la difference. Chowhounding is about finding the best stuff within whatever realm you find yourself. My niece, for the first ten years of her life, refused to eat anything but pasta (and even that with no meat, fish or cheese). She was on a quest for the best meatless, fishless, cheeseless pasta. I respected that. She was a full-fledged chowhound. Chowhounds work with utmost savvy within limits, whether those limits are financial, health-related, geographic, or aesthetic. The point is what you DO within those limits. That's what this site is about. If someone ONLY eats bamboo shoots, we band together and help them find GREAT bamboo shoots. Putting down the preference itself will lead to discussion that's 1. boring, and 2. divisive and 3. angry. That's 0 for 3. So let's just not do that anymore, ok? ciao Tue Nov 06 13:34:30 -0800 2001 1550688 0 Jim Leff 10 1550716 Thanks again, everyone, for sticking up for all kinds of chowhounds! After reading so many posts from people who I KNOW love food as much as I do, and seem to share my philosophy of eating, I feel like more of a chowhound than ever. Tue Nov 06 17:54:18 -0800 2001 1550697 0 LisaPizza 7 1550682 Caitlin and Dennison have said it all just right. I'd just like to add that however one defines "chowhound", one thing that it's not is exclusionary. The diversity of the mix here is one of our strengths, as I see it. There may be any number of hounds reading along who haven't yet taken the plunge to post. I hope this thread has helped. Come out, come out, whoever you are! Keep posting, LisaPizza! pat Tue Nov 06 12:48:14 -0800 2001 1550669 0 Pat Hammond 4 1550668 As long as a chowhound has at least tasted a food, first--and then said "no, never again,etc," I think she/he can retain the Chowhound title. If I get my mouth around a forkful of "marinated mouse paws soaked in balsamic lard" and declare it off-limits--I'm still a Chowhound, right? :-) Tue Nov 06 11:57:05 -0800 2001 1550660 0 LynnKane 4 1550671 Um, I take it you mean a true chowhound will consume any item ever eaten by man on earth ? While traveling in the South Pacific, you would indulge in a little "long pig"?? I drawn the line at consuming my canine companion, though when I lived in the backwoods of Hawaii my canine cuisine inclined friends told me my plump black Labrador held gustatory potential. So, to each their own and to all happy chowhounding. Tue Nov 06 12:13:58 -0800 2001 1550660 0 tanyal 2 1550635 Being a chowhound is very much an individual thing. While a person can be both a vegetarian and a chowhound (and many are), there is nothing inherent about severely restricting your diet voluntarily which would point to a person being a chowhound. We all like to think of ourselves as eating a sophisticated and daring diet, and non-chowhounds are no exception to this. Most of the vegetarians (and vegans) I have known in fact eat bland and limited diets, while spouting about how much more nutritious and varied their diets are than those of meat-eaters. If you're a vegetarian chowhound, and your friends are vegetarian chowhounds, you've chosen to associate with like-minded people. They are not typical, any more than meat-eating chowhounds are representative of the meat-eating population at large. Mon Nov 05 21:23:20 -0800 2001 1550621 0 ironmom 2 1550703 I'm wary of any religion that has a litmus test for being a "true believer." That goes double for any religion of which I might be considered a member, chowhounding for instance. BTW, speaking of religion, would you also argue that there are no kosher or halal chowhounds? Tue Nov 06 14:55:09 -0800 2001 1550621 0 Deven Black 3 1550704 i'll respond in a whisper, so not to further offend. no trueisms, absolutes or right and wrong. chowhoundism is whatever we want it to be. no rules. i'm not trying to define or exclude anyone. no name calling. i do wish to express my observation of the vegetarians i know and love. most of them are fussy, some have hangs up about food. i don't know a vegetarian who would consider themselves a chowhound. i do not think that most of the people who participate on the site are like the vegetarians i know. i am sharing a sterotype i have seen from my very limited view. jim thinks i'm feigning surprize cause my controversial post has taken this route? i did not expect the hate. i did expect folks like galleygirl to express her spirit which she did in what i would consider one of the best posts i've ever read. these views are a work in progress. can we operate between white bread and name calling? Tue Nov 06 15:31:01 -0800 2001 1550703 0 Shoeman 4 1550705 I think we can all accept something along the lines of, "I think I am a chowhound, therefore I am a chowhound." Almost everone has some hangups about food. I think the thread on chowhound quirks -- and as I recall you and I share a few -- proved that. Many of us have limitations on what we will or will not eat. But I am willing to accept that chowhounding is a state of mind, and not necessarily about what actually gets into one's mouth. Tue Nov 06 15:46:03 -0800 2001 1550704 0 Deven Black 1 1550710 I am a vegetarian. I do not eat the flesh, bones or organs of animals' bodies. I do eat eggs and dairy products, though I am aware that the same logic that drove me to boycott animal bodies (ethical concern for animal suffering and death) should make me pause before eating ice cream or an omelette. No shrimp paste, no gelatin, no wines fined with isinglass or gelatin, no cheese made with animal rennet, no fish sauce. No leather, no tallow-based soap, no glue from animal bones. I suspect that eventually I will give up all animal foods, including Humboldt Fog cheese, cheese nibbles, Reine de Saba cake, blackberry pie, hazelnut gelato, toll house cookies and spotted dick. I do not mind being told that I am not a chowhound. The truth is that I am and have ever been a gourmand. Tue Nov 06 16:34:02 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Samo 2 1550740 You mean Humboldt Fog cheese has no animal rennet? Tell me it's true! Wed Nov 07 08:27:55 -0800 2001 1550710 0 MU 3 1550847 It's true. Here is more good news: St. George, Putney Tomme, all recently made English cheeses, all Tillamook cheeses except aged white Cheddar, the Gouda sold by the fellow at the Santa Monica farmers markets. I have a very long list of vegetarian friendly cheeses, but you can compile one just as long simply by inquiring at your favorite cheese counter. Though some merchants of fine cheese are ignorant about the rennets used in their merchandise (for example, the folks at Beverly Hills's Fromagerie), others are extremely well versed (for example, those at the Cowgirl Creamery in Point Reyes Station or San Francisco's Artisan Cheese). Cowgirl Creamery 80 4th St Point Reyes Station, CA (415) 663-8153 Artisan Cheese 2413 California St San Francisco, CA (415) 929-8610 Thu Nov 08 12:59:49 -0800 2001 1550740 0 Samo 4 1550854 Alas, your suggestions are on the wrong coast. I've tried asking purveyors at lots of places here (Portland, ME) with little success, and usually end up explaining to the hapless counter person exactly what rennet is. The best cheese stores here (Horton's in the Public Market and Portland Greengrocer) occasionally have a person available who might be able to answer rennet questions, but usually not. I have a Trader Joe's rennet list on my fridge (animal, vegetable, microbial), but it only notes specific brands carried by TJ's, the nearest of which is 100 miles away. I live with a very strict vegetarian who is unlikely to trust sweeping rennet generalizations: we have come to understand that use of animal rennet in cheeses varies by producer (one Stilton producer might use it; another not), and sometimes simply because the price of veggie/microbial rennet fluctuates, so producers use the most cost-effective ingredient, hence the vague term "enzymes" on the label. We try to get it in writing: Singleton's, an English cheesemaker, has the message "suitable for vegetarians" on all of its labels (just have to make sure that the cheese is correctly matched to the sticker). Cabot, a large-scale Vermont cheesemaker, has "no animal rennet" on the labels of most of its mass-market cheeses, but none of their specialty varieties display this message. On inquiry, I discovered this was because the variety cheeses, including the roasted garlic cheddar and the special, long-aged cheddars, do contain animal rennet. Since rennet is meat, we generally trust any cheese labeled kosher, but these, besides mozzarella, are usually lousy. If you cared to share the specifics of your list, I'd be deeply grateful. Thu Nov 08 14:18:32 -0800 2001 1550847 0 MU 4 1550863 I would also appreciate your sharing your list, if you're willing. Thu Nov 08 15:28:08 -0800 2001 1550847 0 Caitlin McGrath 1 1551052 Does anyone have a recipe for a butternut squash lasagna or something like that? Thanks Sat Nov 10 16:44:53 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Sandy 1 1551080 Seek and ye shall find. Surely, the veg chowhounds are out here. Although, not a strict vegetarian love food just the same. Especially, fruits...veggies... natural protein substitutes.....etc. As for processed foods and by-products, foooey on them. Have a personal chef......he loves to cook and we both love to eat......hunting for, preparing (creating) and savoring all make up the joy of eating. To love food does not necessarily mean wearing it, so to look at the two of us you could never tell we are the food connoisseurs that we are. Good food that is beneficial.....that is what I like! Chow............ Sun Nov 11 17:13:35 -0800 2001 1550407 0 Gingerbread Blossom