287673 Fri Sep 28 15:32:06 -0700 2001 93 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1548764 Here is how I see it... NAME - no more then three words including the "The" or someone's last name. LOCATION - close enough to home to walk if you absolutely had too but you prefer to drive. DECOR - once inside you can't tell if it is 2 pm or 2 am. Masculine looking but obviously designed by a women. STAFF - Bartenders must be MEN who wear white shirts and black pants. Tie opinional. The rest of the staff can be mixed. BAR TAPS - 10 total. Guinness always. Next two, rotating belgium's. Next two rotating domestic microbrews. Next three rotating imports. 9th Hoogarden in the summer, Rogue's Shakespeare stout in the winter. 10th Rotating hard cider in summer, Anchor's Oldfog Horn barleywine in winter. HARD LIQUOR - the usual plus a bottle of grappa di brunelle and calvados. Caper berries available for martini's. MENU - one sided. Known for chili, house blue cheese salad dressing, burger served only one way, confit of duck breast with fresh greens. JUKEBOX - John Hiatt, Uncle Tupelo, Frank Sanatra and the song American Pie burried in a compilation disc of 30 other greatest hits. No TV REST ROOMS - Aways spotless. Mens has three urinals that start chest high and go all the way to the floor, like in grade school. Womens big enough that you never ever have to wait. What am I missing....? Fri Sep 28 15:32:06 -0700 2001 0 Shoeman 1 1548765 My idea of "the perfect bar" does not have any sexist people in it. Good bartenders most definitely come in both sexes! Fri Sep 28 15:45:42 -0700 2001 1548764 0 maureen 2 1548770 Sorry! The owner can be a woman. In fact, everyone else involved in the bar can be female, including the chef. But for some reason, in my "perfect bar" I think the bartenders should be men. However, if you still think I'm being sexist, I'll agree to one man and one women bartender, cause your right "no sexist people". And if you still have a problem with that, I'll go with all woman. I really don't want to come off sexist. Fri Sep 28 16:09:01 -0700 2001 1548765 0 Shoeman 3 1548914 Shoeman. Good idea to absolve yourself of the initial post. "Bartenders are MEN". I have also felt the exact same feeling Minty has. Every single "worthwhile" bar with good crowd appeal, good tunes, good drink venue seems to have these male bartenders that feel their "perk" in the scenario of the evening is to perform for every half decent looking female that is within eye's view, male escorted or not. It gets old real, real quick. And I quarantee, I have never, ever once seen the same performance played out by a female bartender. Ever. There is a restaurant that has a popular bar here in Napa that is becoming slowly known as the "happening" spot. We went there, sat in earnest for 30 minutes making waving gestures & you name it before even being acknowledged by these two bozo "wanna be" Tom Cruise bartenders (has anyone really thought about the basic meaning of that title? Bar-tender) of whom were entertaining some females at end-of bar. This is a restaurant, mind-you. The bar is an added feature but it leaves an over-all taste for the entire place. Finally, we get menu's begrudgingly and I hope for their sack that we make eye-contact before my husband makes a scene. He'd had it. Sure enough, two mini skirted blondes show up and the night is over. They came to get our drink order twice and with that, we bailed. This is far from the first time this has happened in a male tended bar and it gets real old. I understand you are sondering up the "perfect bar". I guess we all have our own ideas of "perfect". Mine is professionalism, over-all. Bartending is not easy. Finding a good one is finding a jewel. Plus, in a perfect "2001" bar, I'd add Moby, Casandra, Chet Baker & Jill Scott to that music line. By-the-way, anyone in Napa Valley want to hit a great, close to perfect bar, try 1351 Lounge in St. Helena on Main Street. It's owned by a husband-wife team who are there, taking care of everything. Great music, no food but the drinks are awesome. Also Tra Vigne. The bartenders are customer savvy and they like their work. Great thread, Shoeman! Sun Sep 30 21:46:24 -0700 2001 1548770 0 Lucy Gore 4 1548921 Lucy, thanks for the kind words and great contribution. At first, I was slightly offended by Minty comment about male bartender's. At the time, I was doing too much damage control over my stupid comment which start that mess. I really wanted to start a fun post about the "perfect bar" not a debate about who makes better bartenders, men or women. As a man, I am shameful oblivious to how men treat women except how I treat my own wife and how she treats me. Anyway, no women should ever be treated the way you and Minty discribe, that's aweful. Men bartender are not better the women, especially when that stuff is going on. With all that said, I still prefer men bartenders! It is a stupid guy warm fuzzy thing. I prefer men doctors. I've had great women bosses that I would not trade for the world. My wife has the exact same preferences. It's not about them it's about me. Does it make me sexest? Is it OK to feel more comfortable with one sex then another in certain circumstances? Mon Oct 01 10:29:03 -0700 2001 1548914 0 Shoeman 5 1548938 Shoeman Our primary goal in all "life quests" is comfort. Human nature, I guess. Sexism is a whole 'nother extreme so lets not even go there. I say to each his/her own and if your perfect bar includes men tending the bar, so be it! More power to ya. (What exactly would this bartender LOOK like, anyways? Any woman wanna speak up on this? It works both ways:) Mon Oct 01 13:58:53 -0700 2001 1548921 0 Lucy Gore 6 1548939 I agree with you. However, I was refered to a sexest due to my mere preference toward male bartenders. The folks who said that did not know or ask why that was my preference. And Lucy, the male bartenders in my "perfect bar" are rather ugly. Sorry. Mon Oct 01 14:14:50 -0700 2001 1548938 0 Shoeman 7 1548959 This is funny, Shoeman. I realize now that a great bartender is just a great, generous person who is good at their work and appreciated for it. We love those people. No sexism. This is both genders. And this whole thread reminds me of something out of a David Sedaris novel/book. I've enjoyed it! Thanks! Mon Oct 01 22:29:00 -0700 2001 1548939 0 Lucy Gore 8 1548960 We're looking for career bartenders of any sex. No actors or models need apply. Unless they are willing to commit themselve to lifelong bartending excellence. Mon Oct 01 22:40:16 -0700 2001 1548959 0 ironmom 6 1548972 Prefferences and "isms" are different animals... Preffering a man behind the bar doesn't make anyone sexist. It simply means they have an opinion. Carry it to an impropper extreme, sexist. That being said my all time favorite bartender was a woman. Yes, she was a drop dead gorgeous blonde hottie. She was also deft, brilliant, fun, funny, and one of the hardest working people I have ever met. No one ever got ignored. She never botched an order. She always greated me by name. The kicker, she ALWAYS remembered the last cocktail she poured me ( I don't have a "usual" so that was quite a trick). It didn't matter whether it was last night our 5 monthes ago. No one before or since can touch that. Hospitality at it's finest. Male or female. Tue Oct 02 03:48:06 -0700 2001 1548938 0 Brandon Nelson 2 1548776 Nor, I would think, would the "perfect bar" be one that violates federal and state law by engaging in sex discrimination. Fri Sep 28 16:17:36 -0700 2001 1548765 0 Marty L. 1 1548768 Your bartender comment is uncalled for, and insulting to boot. Fri Sep 28 16:01:55 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Minty 2 1548772 I give, the sex of the bartenders can be anyway you want. Fri Sep 28 16:11:35 -0700 2001 1548768 0 Shoeman 3 1548775 Thank you. This means, in your "prefect bar," I'll never have to wait too long for my grappa di brunelle while the male bartenders are too busy chatting up the bimbos! Fri Sep 28 16:15:55 -0700 2001 1548772 0 Minty 4 1548779 Do we *really* want to get into a dead end debate on whether men or women make better bartenders? Why don't we just stipulate that the perfect bar will have attentive and efficient bartenders and leave it at that. Fri Sep 28 16:37:46 -0700 2001 1548775 0 Bob Martinez 4 1548783 Exactly! In fact the first grappa is on the house and Minty you are a perfered customer. Only good things happen in the prefect bar. Fri Sep 28 17:10:55 -0700 2001 1548775 0 Shoeman 4 1549025 Devils advocate time... Read your initial response to the original post. Something about "insulting"? "Uncalled for"? Then you go on to stereotype male bartenders,and female barflys. Shoe is entitled to his opinion. He made no insult to women, bartenders or otherwise. He just honestly listed his prefference. Yours seems to be female. Thats O.K. too. I don't remember any "insulting" term like "bimbos" in the original post. Stay with the spirit Minty. You are way to smart to get caught up in this silly trap. : ) Chow!!! Wed Oct 03 03:26:03 -0700 2001 1548775 0 Brandon Nelson 5 1549032 No, in fact, Shoeman did not simply express a "preference" for male bartenders, e.g., a preference that he be served by such bartenders (which he could ensure by sitting in front of one). Instead, Shoeman expressed a preference for a bar that employs *only* male bartenders ("STAFF - Bartenders must be MEN who wear white shirts and black pants. Tie optional. The rest of the staff can be mixed.") -- a practice that would be not only pernicious, but unlawful, as well. Wed Oct 03 10:51:57 -0700 2001 1549025 0 Marty L. 6 1549063 Marty, you seem to be quite legal minded. In fact, your only contributions to a very long and enjoyable thread were on matters of law. This from your last post - "The rest of the staff can be mixed.") -- a practice that would be not only pernicious, but unlawful, as well." And this from your previous post - "Nor, I would think, would the "perfect bar" be one that violates federal and state law by engaging in sex discrimination." Does your legal zeal extend in both directions? Here in New York there are hundreds of bars that traditionally and exclusively have *female* bartenders. Does this upset you? Or is it only male bartenders that make you want to call the lawyers? Wed Oct 03 18:29:24 -0700 2001 1549032 0 Bob Martinez 7 1549066 This discussion has ceased to be a General discussion about food and drink and bars. Take any further legal discussion to Not About Food, please. Or better yet, let's get back to talk about the Perfect Bar! Wed Oct 03 19:00:26 -0700 2001 1549063 0 Moderator 8 1549100 Sorry, Jim, I just posted a response to this thread here on "General Food Topics," before I had read your request. I'm a tad confused, however, about why this "Perfect Bar" thread had previously been acceptable on GFT, but has only now become off-topic. Doesn't the GFT category encompass general discussions about restaurants? If it's necessary that the discussion be centered on "food," rather than on other aspects of resturants, shouldn't this thread -- and numerous others -- have been on NAF in the first place? Thu Oct 04 11:04:37 -0700 2001 1549066 0 Marty L. 7 1549102 Bob, at Jim's request, I'm taking it over to "Not About Food" (although I remain unclear as to why this segment of the thread, but not the thread as a whole, is inappropriate on GFT). Thu Oct 04 11:19:57 -0700 2001 1549063 0 Marty L. 6 1549083 You too miss the spirit... You are trying way to hard to find evil where there is none. One man prefers male bartenders. That is what exists in his imaginary perfect bar. He shared that with us. His intent was OBVIOUSLY to induce us to share our ideas, likes, and dislikes. He had NO evil intent. I have seen more than a few threads on Chowhound take this kind of spin. All to often it is because some hound wants to bleed over some imagined wound. I will always give another hound the benefit of the doubt. I don't read evil intentions into other peoples words. I'm sue no woman will lose work tending bar as a result of this thread. I have seen charges of sexism and racism misused on these boards. I have personaly been accused of being a crusading christian (WRONG). It amazes me that people look so hard for something to be offended by. Chowhound has always been about sharing. Shoeman came up with a great topic to share. Lets get into the fun sharing spirit that fuels the Chowhound engine and contribute! Chow!!! Thu Oct 04 02:36:55 -0700 2001 1549032 0 Brandon Nelson 7 1549099 I'm sorry that I "miss the spirit" of sex discrimination. I did not say that Shoeman was evil, that he had an "evil intent," or even that he was sexist. I merely suggested that Shoeman was expressing a, shall we say, wistfulness for certain conduct by employers -- namely, the exclusion of women from a profession traditionally limited to men (exclusion based on outmoded and pernicious stereotypes, I might add) -- that has long been considered unacceptable and unlawful. Alas, the "wounds" suffered by women in the workplace have not been "imagined" -- they've been all too real. And from what I've read (e.g., with respect to waiters in high-end restaurants) the problem is hardly one of the long-distant past: it appears that the restaurant industry is one of the last, great bastions of unlawful sex discrimination in employment. Look, if Shoeman had said that he preferred that his "perfect bar" had all white bartenders, I suspect no one here would be coming to his defense. And for good reason. Well, I, for one, think that his yearning for an all-male bar crew is similarly worthy of rebuke and condemnation. Thu Oct 04 10:58:10 -0700 2001 1549083 0 Marty L. 8 1549130 Yeah! I,too, do not think there was any evil intent meant when shoeman described his perfect bar, BUT........ How many diners know just HOW BAD sexual descrimination in restaurants (especially "fine dining" restaurants) really is?? Granted, there are some wonderful owners, managers, chefs, etc. who do not accept this behavior. But, it is so rampent. Trust me, you would not believe what goes on!! Cheers to all of the new breed of women chefs, bartenders, etc. It is not an easy road to the top! Restaurant work is a great thing (sometimes the only thing available) for many mothers, students, etc. This gives them time w/ there kids while they are still awake and it is sometimes a wonderful way to make money. Haven't you read "Kitchen Confidential?" TRUE! I have waitressed, bartended, cooked, prepped, managed, & owned. Remember that nice, professional woman who waits on you at your favorite restaurant. Chances are that along w/ tired feet, she may have to put up w/ some stuff going on in the kitchen that you would never wish on your sister, mom, girlfriend, etc!! And, I KNOW, it does go both ways! I know lots of men who have been there, too! Sorry to go on! Thu Oct 04 18:29:24 -0700 2001 1549099 0 maureen 9 1549131 Sorry, to interrupt. This thread has moved to Not About Food. And to be a further pain in the neck, once a thread title fits, please stick with it. New posters follow our leads. Now, on with the chow! Thu Oct 04 19:01:02 -0700 2001 1549130 0 Moderator 10 1549140 This is an "imaginary Perfect bar". Give it a chance and keep all the real-life drama out. What a great opportunity to just let it go! I made the mistake of taking this thread a little too serious early on and it didn't take long to realize what a mistake that was. It's a fun one here! Thanks to Shoeman . . . enjoy! Fri Oct 05 03:12:19 -0700 2001 1549131 0 Lucy Gore 1 1548782 Hmmmmm...Are we really foolish enough to believe that by simply employing women as bartenders we eliminate the presence of sexism. That seems like quite a leap. I understood his question to be hypothetical rather than the beginning of a survey or focus group. If shoeman likes male bartenders then so be it. We don’t have to nor do we have to be offended. Frankly, I was more put off by the notion that bartenders had to wear white shirts and black pants. Sounds a little too stuffy to me. I would like to see more tap beers and some sense of ethnic heritage or connection to the community such as a “wall of fame.” I also agree with the one-sided menu and being known for a certain type of food. Fri Sep 28 17:05:09 -0700 2001 1548764 0 sid 2 1548797 I have to say the bartenders at one of my favorite bars wear white shirts, ties and black pants, and it is a welcome change from most of the places I frequent. However, it goes with the overall decor/tone of the place, which is a kind of subdued chic. Sort of like an upscale airport lounge, or a hotel bar in Tokyo, maybe not if you're facing the street, but definitely when you're seated at the bar. I'm not sure if it's the feel I like so much, or something else (although their drinks are excellent, if a bit pricey), but with bars that's definitely a crucial factor. They also make the most perfect mint julep, which is all too rare. Fri Sep 28 18:41:34 -0700 2001 1548782 0 liana 3 1548813 I used to be a short order cook at a small "sports bar" in a strip mall that did the black-pants-white-shirt-bow-tie thing with the bartenders and it always felt a little fake. Like they were trying too hard to be something they weren't. Maybe that has clouded my opinion. Nonetheless there is something classy about a sharp dressed bartender who knows how to mix a martini. However, I am equally fond of those little rural Wisconsin bars that are made completely out of pine, are decorated with mounted fish and only serve one kind of beer. Fri Sep 28 23:00:02 -0700 2001 1548797 0 sid 4 1548870 I'm sure the shirt/tie/pants thing can come off as a little forced at some places. Also, a friend of mine worked at a bar where he had to wear a shirt and tie, and he hated every minute of it. And I definitely share your fondness for those little rural bars. I lived in Minnesota until I was 8, and from what I've been told, when my parents couldn't find a babysitter they would bring me along with them to the neighborhood bar, so their appeal is obviously lodged somewhere in my subconscious. I think I'm just feeling a backlash from all the awful, packed-to-the-gills downtown bars I usually end up in, which is why this place seemed like such a haven (they don't allow standing or parties larger than 4). However, I'm sure if the bartenders were dressed in jeans and t-shirts it would still be lovely. Sat Sep 29 19:25:35 -0700 2001 1548813 0 liana 5 1548888 I wish it were possible to gauge the skill of a bartender on whether he or she wears a tie or a white shirt and black pants. Maybe we can push for a "certified bartender"'s uniform that will give us a clue...(well, we are talking the *perfect* bar, right?) My significant other is in the wine and spirits biz, so we visit many a bar and have experienced a wide range of skill levels. The best bartender I've ever encountered -- most talented, with a balance of good social skills too -- wore a white shirt, black pants and a tie (if you're ever in the San Francisco Bay Area, a trip to Nizza La Bella in Albany, just north of Berkeley, is worth the pprice of the trip alone). But we also visit a neighborhood bar where all the bartenders are required to wear ties (not white shirts, though). From the owner and manager down, though, these guys are the most incompetent bodies behind a bar I've ever encountered. They're nice, don't get me wrong -- but pathetic bartenders. As a group, they have: Poured me gimlets for gibsons and vice versa Topped off a short-poured cocktail with liquor straight from the bottle Dug out cocktail onions from the jar with their hands Dumped new ice on top of old in my current glass and filled it -- (and charged me for a new drink) And none of them can ever seem to get all the liquor in the glass they're pouring into, so the bar always is sticky with liquor trails. Needless to say, they play no part in my "perfect bar" scenario, except maybe to be used as the "avoid this" part of the training. Sat Sep 29 22:48:00 -0700 2001 1548870 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 6 1548891 That was very funny. Thanks. Sun Sep 30 00:38:15 -0700 2001 1548888 0 2chez mike 6 1548902 Did you by any chance watch Conan O'Brien Friday night(same night you posted)??? There was a clip of his attempt at bartending after becoming inspired by the movie "Cocktail". It was as if you wrote the script! Sun Sep 30 13:30:10 -0700 2001 1548888 0 HLing 6 1548950 My understanding is that the great bartender is no longer at Nizza la Bella -- he certainly had a "rep" and was very popular. The restaurant threw him a going away party. Mon Oct 01 17:25:58 -0700 2001 1548888 0 Ruth Lafler 1 1548784 Good topic for a Friday afternoon. I agree with a lot of what you've said buit I've got some quibbles and additions. 1. Food. Can't go along with the "burger served only one way" concept. This is America, the land of choice. A decent steak would be welcome as well. Hot sauce should be on the table. 2. TV. There should be one. Sitting in a bar with some friends and watching baseball in the summer and football in the winter is one of life's great pleasures. But keep the volume low or use the closed captioning feature. Nothing should EVER interfere with conversation. 3. Jukebox. A big one. Add Motown, Otis Redding, Sam & Dave, British Invasion, Ramones, David Bowie, Lou Reed ... Again, the volume should be low enough not to interfere with conversation at the bar. Keep the jukebox in the back where it can be loud when you want it loud. 4. Decent bar munchies. The 2 locations of the Waterfront Ale House in New York have free popcorn machines. Not a bad idea. 5. A fireplace. Lots of London pubs have gas fireplaces which are very welcome in winter. Lets do it here. 6. Buybacks. Every 3rd or 4th round. (We will hear from Deven Black on this one.) 7. I want Sierra Nevada Pale Ale available all the time. A couple of good German drafts would be nice too. Oh hell, if we're fantasizing I want a couple of British real ales on tap too. Young's - Ahhhh. Fri Sep 28 17:11:14 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Bob Martinez 2 1548801 Yeah, The Georgia Bar in Athens, GA has a popcorn machine and a roasted peanut machine, and I've always thought that was the bee's pajamas. I'd vote to add Tom Waits, Howlin Wolf, George Jones and John Coltraine to the jukebox. Fri Sep 28 19:11:22 -0700 2001 1548784 0 chris o 2 1548823 Gee, am I that predictable Bob? Must do something about that. Well, since you asked: in a perfect bar ALL the drinks would be on the house, and no one would ever over imbibe. Sat Sep 29 00:18:09 -0700 2001 1548784 0 Deven Black 3 1548834 Deven, if I ever owned a bar I would want you to run it to keep me from going out of business. Sat Sep 29 07:16:25 -0700 2001 1548823 0 Bob Martinez 4 1548837 I'm looking for a job these days. Make me an offer.... Sat Sep 29 10:39:53 -0700 2001 1548834 0 Deven Black 5 1548885 Deven, earlier this year I was between jobs for a couple of months and it worked out fine in the end. You're a real pro and I'm sure you'll land on your feet soon. Good luck. Sat Sep 29 22:33:03 -0700 2001 1548837 0 Bob Martinez 6 1548896 Thanks for the encouragement. For the first time in more than 30 years of working I've been unemployed twice in one calendar year. While it is a bit disorienting I remain very optimistic. Sun Sep 30 09:42:23 -0700 2001 1548885 0 Deven Black 1 1548786 CLIENTELE - not annoying (whatever that means to you, of course. I know what it means to me.) I am actually just curious about why you think male bartenders are supeior (I'm not offended or trying to put you on the defensive) Fri Sep 28 17:30:55 -0700 2001 1548764 0 sc 2 1548790 "I am actually just curious about why you think male bartenders are supeior (I'm not offended or trying to put you on the defensive)" I'm so glad you asked. Male bartenders are by no means better or more superior then females. I'm going to be sorry I did not better explain myself in the orginal post. The best bartender I've ever known happened to be a man and guess what he wore a white shirt and black pants and in the winter he wore a tie. He died recently and when I was composing my image of the prefect bar, he came to mind. Its no more than that. I should not have been so specific. Fri Sep 28 17:46:12 -0700 2001 1548786 0 Shoeman 3 1548815 "The best bartender I've ever known happened to be a man and guess what he wore a white shirt and black pants and in the winter he wore a tie. He died recently and when I was composing my image of the prefect bar, he came to mind. Its no more than that. I should not have been so specific." On the contrary, I appreciate the explanation. You shouldn’t have to apologize for waxing nostalgic. Fri Sep 28 23:09:55 -0700 2001 1548790 0 sid 1 1548792 Sitting next to Charles Bukowski in a voluble mood, or at least the second coming of Hank. Fri Sep 28 17:59:17 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Mike Kilgore 1 1548794 Caper berries for martinis! What a great idea! I'm hooked! Fri Sep 28 18:15:31 -0700 2001 1548764 0 2chez mike 1 1548795 A grand piano in a corner, maybe with stools nearby and/or bar rail...with an elegant pianist (think Bobby Short), who'll also let customers sing along with select songs --Gershwin, Porter, et al. Preferably in a historic building or house with architectural authenticity. And great, soft, lighting that takes 5 years off everybody's age... Fri Sep 28 18:16:45 -0700 2001 1548764 0 berkleybabe 1 1548802 The perfect bar also needs large martini glasses. I mean ones that can easily hold four ounces of martini without being filled to the brim. Fri Sep 28 19:13:23 -0700 2001 1548764 0 2chez mike 2 1548816 Large enough, yes, but not the ridiculous 12- or more-oz glasses that seem to becoming popular. Not only does a bar have to charge a fortune for what ends up being a triple-sized drink, but it's warm by the time you get halfway through. Fri Sep 28 23:12:03 -0700 2001 1548802 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 3 1548833 12 oz. martini glasses? Where? Show me the way. Sat Sep 29 04:30:06 -0700 2001 1548816 0 2chez mike 1 1548806 Okay..I am over the Bartender thing...... Music, I like what you have but I might add Leo Kotke (sp), Nancy Griffin, Sarah Harmer (best new CD!!) AND......great Irish coffee for cold Winter nights (hey, I am in Maine). Fri Sep 28 20:13:48 -0700 2001 1548764 0 maureen 2 1548839 Of course Nancy Griffin and thanks for getting over the bartender thing. Sat Sep 29 10:56:25 -0700 2001 1548806 0 Shoeman 1 1548810 The barstools should be easy to climb on, comfortable to sit in for extended lengths of time, and safe to climb down from after you've had a couple. All this whether you're tall, short or average in height. The bar should be squeaky clean and shiny so you can lean your elbows on it. Wine by the glass, both house and a few rotating reserve choices. Fri Sep 28 22:05:11 -0700 2001 1548764 0 ironmom 1 1548818 My perfect bar would have to have: Lillet (blond and rouge) Dubonnet (red and white) Marachino liqueur Peychaud's bitters Mixers in bottles (soda and tonic), not from "guns" No sweet-and-sour mix Fresh citrus juices Orange twists and wheels, in addition to the usual lemon and lime garnishes And bartenders (however dressed and whichever sex) who can make at least 5 of the 7 following drinks: Aviation Bacardi cocktail (a real one) Sazerac Negroni Bronx Maiden's Prayer French 75 That's for the perfect bar -- the perfect pub would be a different story, of course. Fri Sep 28 23:55:38 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 2 1548822 For "bottled mixers", I would include "Schweppes Bitter Lemon", in small bottles, for "The Perfect Bar". Sat Sep 29 00:14:14 -0700 2001 1548818 0 2chez mike 1 1548849 Johnny Cash on the jukebox. Sat Sep 29 14:39:28 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Christopher 2 1548863 The Derailers too. Sat Sep 29 18:39:21 -0700 2001 1548849 0 Bob Martinez 1 1548858 Dear Shoeman, I came into this a little late but enjoyed the entire discussion. It definitely has put me in the mood to take off for my favorite pub. There are many people who show up there on an almost daily basis. It's located beneath a good Italian restaurant and you can choose from the upscale menu from there or from the less expensive pub menu. The building is very old with stone walls and an oak bar. There are 14 taps and no bottles. The beers are usually all imported, mostly from the UK. There are a couple of dart boards and a few English pub items on the menu. The bartenders are all very friendly and are always invited to customers' parties ( and vice-versa ). My wife says the bar is good because she goes there and I would not care to argue that point. This is one of the best bars that I have come across. I could go on much longer, but it's time head on over there now. Regards, Steve P.S. There is a gas fireplace. Sat Sep 29 17:46:00 -0700 2001 1548764 0 steve 2 1548864 Where? Save me a stool! Sat Sep 29 18:40:59 -0700 2001 1548858 0 Bob Martinez 3 1548876 Dear Bob, Heart of Oak Pub in Buckingham, PA at the intersection of Rts. 202 and 413. Try to come on Friday and be sure to ask for me. Regards, Steve Sat Sep 29 21:39:23 -0700 2001 1548864 0 steve 4 1548879 How far a drive is that from, like, Queens, NY? I have a burning desire to make the trip. I wonder if I'd find other cars with out-of-state license plates outside. Sat Sep 29 21:57:29 -0700 2001 1548876 0 Jim Leff 5 1548882 Dear Jim, Buckingham is less than 2 hours from New York. It is about 10 minutes from New Hope in the heart of the Buscks County antique area. As far as out-of-towners, a lot of people come from New Jersey which is nearby and I suppose there are some tourists dropping buy now and then because of the proximity to New Hope. Please let me know if you are planning a visit to the area. It would be great to meet you and introduce you my friends at the pub. Regards, Steve Sat Sep 29 22:24:30 -0700 2001 1548879 0 steve 6 1548884 I drove 1.5 hours today for stuffed cabbage, so why not two hours for a beer? Re: the out of town cars, I was referring to people reading this discussion who decide to make the trek. Sounds improbable, I know, but that's the kind of people we are here. Hey, we have many, many thousands of users here on Chowhound, and we'd like to remember you among the crowd. So I'd suggest you consider a more distinctive nametag than "Steve"! ciao Sat Sep 29 22:31:11 -0700 2001 1548882 0 Jim Leff 7 1548887 Thanks for the name suggestion. I also use Chef Stefano and Kingtwist on the net. Chef Stefano is due to my professional training and Kingtwist is because I operate a business selling fresh-baked soft pretzels. I just think that Steve sounds friendly. If you give me notice when you are in the area, I will be sure that you get to try the pretzels. I usually bring some to share with my friends at the pub on Friday or any other day when I am in the mood. Sat Sep 29 22:46:37 -0700 2001 1548884 0 steve 8 1548898 Ok lets pick a date I'm up for a road trip. Buck Co. Pa. baby! The Oak Pub. Big Dog, Steve you put it together and I'll buy the first round for every chowhound that makes the trip! Sun Sep 30 11:58:51 -0700 2001 1548887 0 Shoeman 9 1548900 Shoeman and Steve-- While expressions of inter-geographical envy and craving are appropriate for this board, specific get-togethers should be discussed on the regional boards. Sun Sep 30 12:18:45 -0700 2001 1548898 0 Jim Leff 9 1548901 Dear Shnoeman, I am moving this discussion to mid-atlantic philly board. See you there. Regards, Steve Sun Sep 30 13:29:12 -0700 2001 1548898 0 steve 4 1548883 Is Buckingham anywhere near Bloomsburg? I have a friend near Bloomsburg I visit every couple of years. It's in the middle of nowhere in central PA. But they have these incredible Italian restaurants. Don't even get me started on the abundance of great, old fashioned, local drinking establishments in PA. Sat Sep 29 22:30:24 -0700 2001 1548876 0 2chez mike 1 1548895 Add Janis Joplin to that jukebox and cheddar goldfish to those bar snacks, and I'm there. Sun Sep 30 01:53:02 -0700 2001 1548764 0 C. Fox 1 1548925 I have two comments for this great thread. 1) Is not there some confusion between a bar and a lounge? It seems that what many people are seeking best belongs in a lounge not a bar. 2) I kinda think, as corny as it sounds, that the something pretty close to the perfect bar exists. That is the stand-up bar at the Berghoff in downtown chicago. To me, this is what the bar in heaven looks like (when I'm not thinking that heaven looks like the sports book at Cesar's Palace). Some of the things that make the Berghoff nearly perfect: carpentry that just cannot be duplicated anymore; a house bourban that still get drunk, several kinds of house beer on tap, ancient wood coolers filled with even more kinds of beer; different beer glass sizes for those with diferent business to conduct in the afternoon; several very good wines by the glass; bartenders that can mix in martini's between the shots and beers; a discreet tv that's on only when you need it (i.e., afternoon games at wrigley); cigars that were for sale well before they became a fashion accessory; a buffet manned by two crusty old men with indeterminate accents; hot mustard, hot horshradish and cold hard-boiled eggs to go with the sandwiches; and the good sense to never rest on their laurels. For instance, I remember when the great fried potatos joined the food offerings, yet know they seem like they have been there forever. VI Mon Oct 01 11:04:34 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Vital Information 2 1548926 I'm not sure I know the dif between a lounge and a bar? Anyway, we have long way to go in conceiving a "perfect bar." This is a place you visit nearly weekly and never get tired of it. At any given time, you know all the staff and half the patrons. You are always meeting new people. You are as likely to eat there as to drink. The owners are fairly wealthy, cause they run it like a business and you never mind spending money there. The owners also sponser your daughter's ballet recital and volunteer for the dunk tank at the yearly church carnival.... Mon Oct 01 11:24:23 -0700 2001 1548925 0 Shoeman 3 1548927 Spotting the differences between a bar and a lounge: At a bar you stand or sit on stools; at a lounge you sit in comfort. At a bar you face the bottles, the tv, the bartender or your drink; at a lounge you face who ever you came with. Bars often have back rooms; lounges do not. the backrooms often feature pool tables. If there is a menu, it is more likely a lounge than a bar. Are there windows? Who do you hear more often, Patsy Cline or Edith Piath, AC/DC or New Order, Frank or Tony. Can you buy a square in a super bowl calcutta, do they organize a golf outing? Do they ever need to re-order the bottle of blue curaco? VI Mon Oct 01 11:38:19 -0700 2001 1548926 0 Vital Information 4 1548930 Barounge? I think we are looking at a combination. Ok the "Perfect Barounge" Mon Oct 01 11:54:33 -0700 2001 1548927 0 Shoeman 1 1549027 Some late adds to the list Sweet and sour is for descibing chinese food. It is NEVER a mixer. God made us limes and sugar (simple syrup) lets use them. A level pool table is nice. Straight cues are too. Under no circumstances will Obi Wan Imdrunky brandish a pool cue as he would a lightsaber. The perfect bar has no need for neckless bouncers to toss out rowdys. the menue is as yet a little too light on deep fried offerings. Chips, onion rings ( maui or vidalia) and calamari friti just marry with beer. Johnny Cash and Janis Joplin have been added to the jukebox already. We need to add Stevie Ray Vaughn, Dusty Springfield, and the Pretenders. With all that in place I will offer my favorite toast. Heres looking up your kilt! Wed Oct 03 04:07:00 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Brandon Nelson 1 1549076 Bob, Deven and every Chowhound who contributed with great spirit to what I thought could be an awesome thread, I thank you. And Moderator your exactly right. I laid up most of the night enjoying thinking about the "prefect bar" and could not wait to post and share some excitement. We have a resource of folks who could have made this topic great. Instead, the "perfect bar" sucks. From the moment it posted, we have defended sexism, legality and just bad karma. Meanwhile the jukebox is half empty, the menu imcomplete and the bartenders are having an indentity crisis. The name is unknown, decor a mystery and we're not sure if it is a bar or a lounge. Just goes to show, nothing came be taken with a grain of salt, at face value, or just for fun of it. Wed Oct 03 22:37:24 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Shoeman 2 1549079 Come on Shoeman! Don't let "group participation" do you in! This has been a great thread, thank-you, though I agree abit profound on the objective side. Which is incrediblly boring. (myself guilty, sorry! I want a "perfect bar", damn it!) You have to admit, the spirit was there for awhile. Brief but so resounding. I think this thread will stay in our minds a long time. You have that, my dear! Wed Oct 03 23:21:26 -0700 2001 1549076 0 Lucy Gore 2 1549081 Shoeman, is it not the dream of every chowposter to have a thread responded to, for days! That should allow you to sleep easier some nights. Me, I do not think we have to relieve ourselves of irony in this age of terror. And it seems our right to be able to look at your post in more than one way. For instance, I am still not sure, can something like PJ Clarkes or the Berghoff (i.e., a downtown, overstuffed) be a perfect bar, or should it be the cheersesque everyone knows your name neighborhood kinda place. As to the jukebox: Irma Thomas, J. Geils Band, Jonathan Richman and Modern Lovers (ca. roadrunner), Exile on Main Street (the soundtrack to *my* perfect bar), Jimmy Smith (can the perfect bar be on skid row?), pre-1970 Marvin Gaye, ok post 1970 Marvin Gaye, etc. VI Thu Oct 04 00:15:02 -0700 2001 1549076 0 Vital Information 3 1549096 I would completely second the exile on main street call, "sometimes you gotta scrape the sh** right off of your shoes", some other choices I'd like to see on the juke lightnin' hopkins monk at the 5 spot uncle tupelo johnny cash ali farka toure bill withers jb (not "I feel good") staple singers (earlier gospel stuff) hank williams SR velvet underground (preferably the self titled without nico) kinks -village preservation society soundtrack to the film rushmore I could go on and on and on. . . Thu Oct 04 10:36:06 -0700 2001 1549081 0 zim 4 1549104 an absolutely great one that i forgot- camper van beethoven - "take the skinheads bowling" Thu Oct 04 11:38:26 -0700 2001 1549096 0 zim 2 1549084 Barkeep! Shoeman's Guiness is half empty! Top off that pint before he withers! Dude, this is an awesome thread. Those who want to fuss about the political spin should go blow off some steam at "the Fray" or something. My buddy Dave and I always said if we ever owned a bar we would call it "The Dive". My 2 favorite names of actual bars are "The Sufferin' Bastard" and "Red's Recovery Room". Now in additon to Shoeman's refill I'll have a Patron silver on the rocks with lime. I'm going to drop the first dollar in the Wurlitzer. This is the ultimate bar, so I get 10 plays for a bone. They are Superstition- Stevie Ray Vaughn If you want blood you got it- AC/DC Stand by me- Sam Cook Lanslides- Fleetwood Mac Superfreak-Rick James Cocaine- Eric Clapton Son of a Preacherman- Dusty Springfield Hot Blooded- Foreigner Back to Ohio- The Pretenders Voodoo Child- Hendrix Now Shoeman join me in a game of 8 ball, loser buys the next round. Chow!!! Thu Oct 04 03:12:11 -0700 2001 1549076 0 Brandon Nelson 3 1549085 If I recall correctly, there is a bar in NYC called The Dive on upper Amsterdam avenue...maybe you can buy a franchise. Thu Oct 04 07:10:07 -0700 2001 1549084 0 magnolia 3 1549093 a bar name that I like along those lines is here in chicago: Tuman's alcohol abuse center Thu Oct 04 10:18:02 -0700 2001 1549084 0 zim 3 1549107 I love the song "Stand by Me" and always play it if it's on the box. I normally see it by Ben E. King, who I think had the original recording. Did Sam Cook, (who was a great artist) cover it too? Thu Oct 04 12:05:41 -0700 2001 1549084 0 Mike Kilgore 4 1549262 That might have been an "oops" on my part. If so I'm sorry. I would love to here the pairing though, would have been a great song for him. Chow!!! Mon Oct 08 01:43:04 -0700 2001 1549107 0 Brandon Nelson 3 1549108 I've always thought that if I had a pub, I'd name it "Moose and Squirrel." Thu Oct 04 12:16:56 -0700 2001 1549084 0 Janet A. Zimmerman 4 1549123 Moose and Squirrel is a very funny name. It reminded me of this story. i was in london with my dad. it was sunday and we were having a hard time finding a place open for lunch (things change in 15 years). We saw a sign advertising sunday lunch at a pub called the nag's head. we walked around a while before finally finding the place. the placard had a big horse head on it. when we did come across it, my dad says, "oh, should have said noticed it earlier, a nag is another name for a horse. I said to him, "oh I was looking for your picture." VI Thu Oct 04 15:23:22 -0700 2001 1549108 0 Vital Information 2 1549088 Ah, Shoeman. It was a great thread. A "Hot Thread", someone might be tempted to say! Pat Thu Oct 04 07:48:57 -0700 2001 1549076 0 Pat Hammond 2 1549091 Posts are like children. You have a life planned out for them and then they go off on their merry little tangents, completely confounding you. But in the end, if they are interesting, kind and passionate about life, you should be a happy parent. Shoeman, your kid did good. Thu Oct 04 09:01:45 -0700 2001 1549076 0 Mike Kilgore 2 1549106 the jukebox should be hugely diverse. everything from sidney bechet to the ramones, the temptations to the minutemen, p-funk, hank willimas sr., Bill Monroe, stan getz, Tijuna Brass, AC/DC; and the perfect bar's jukebox abslutely must have the theme to the movie "Carwash" Thu Oct 04 11:58:32 -0700 2001 1549076 0 sc 2 1549118 I really enjoyed this thread, though I did note the "anti" sentiments here and there. I thought that rather than "discriminatory" the posts were more about what bars *shouldn't* have than what they should have, but that's basic: the greatest English pubs have both a bar and a lounge, with the bar defined as the place you go in work clothes (dirty boots, dirty hands) to quaff a pint with the lads. It's traditonally the "men's" side of the pub.--darts, basic food, harder seats, if any. The lounge is more comfy, *ladies and gents* feel more at home there with their halves of cider and brandies, and the pub charges more for the privelege. Pint in the lounge is 20p more or so. Can we apply the same to US bars v. lounges? I'm more of a dirty-boots and pint of-bitter girl myself, so what if we don't discriminate against individuals but maybe not ask that every bar have fine Bordeaux and Stilton nibbles. "You'll be wanting the lounge for that, luv." Thu Oct 04 14:45:18 -0700 2001 1549076 0 lucia 1 1549082 I am surprised that in this whole discussion, tangents and all, price has not come up. I am not a particularly cheap person, but drink price is one of the most important determining factors in choosing a "perfect" bar. Aside from good bar food, professional service, good music, etc, what about good selection of bourbons, for example for $3.50 or $4.00? What about pints of good draught beer for 5.00 or less? What about half price happy hour that lasts for two hours in the late afternoon? I cant be the only person out there who doesn't want to drop $50 or more before going out for dinner. Jake Thu Oct 04 00:38:05 -0700 2001 1548764 0 J. Pine 1 1549492 Personally, I found the post on the perfect bar more credible than critical. The breakdown of place person and thing lays a framework for discussion and idea storming. Of course location is king especially after a few Bourbons - and a name (difficult in discovery) could be successful with the stated rules implemented. However, in personal discussions re: setting a bar atmosphere a few more thoughts: a small location to appear full, contemporary music (look to London) and a conducive and comfortable environment for women is key. For to fill a place - why do guys go to bars anyway? Fri Oct 12 16:10:07 -0700 2001 1548764 0 Shanoon 2 1549505 In my experience (considerable, on both sides of the bar) men go to bars either to meet women or to get away from them. Fri Oct 12 21:39:30 -0700 2001 1549492 0 Deven Black