287460 Tue Aug 07 12:58:08 -0700 2001 43 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1546328 Several times in the past few months, Heineken beer has come under discussion on the boards here, and each time it has been often criticized for having off, skunky tastes supposedly because of its green bottle. Now I realize that by participating on these boards I’m like a little squirrel running with a herd of buffalo. So many people who post here are chefs, restraunteurs, and food critics that I am often in awe of their expertise. But still when I read something that runs counter to my experience it makes me wonder if maybe I need a tongue transplant—and the postings here about Heinekens have not seemed right to me. This is not to say that I think Heinekens is a great beer—it isn’t—but often in little restaurants where the choice may be Beck’s, Heinekens, MGD light, and Bud, for example, I’ve always thought Heinekens was the superior choice. And I’ve found Heinekens to be a remarkably consistent beer, always the same slightly sour bitterness on my palate. So I’ve been thinking, and with me that’s always dangerous. First I thought about light pollution and that damn green bottle. But as I look at a case of Heinekens I can’t see any way for light to get to the green bottle. Do some folks out there think that Bud distributors insert some laser probes into the sealed cases to ruin the flavor of Heinekens? Seems pretty unlikely to me. OK, so maybe the bottles in the case are OK, but then they change. Well, I guess the bottles get some light when I open my refrigerator, but I’ve been informed that refrigerator lights go off when I close the refrigerator door, so that can’t be the problem. OK, maybe the Heinekens in cases are OK, but the ones in six-packs are bad. Well maybe, but my experience has been that Heinekens bottles have a consistent taste, whether I buy them in a restaurant or in a case to take home. So maybe, on sunny days in Amsterdam, the folks at Heinekens pile all their bottles of beer outside the factory just to skunk them. Not likely? OK, maybe they ship them over to the U.S. uncovered on the decks of ships. Well if we agree that this is unlikely, then the color of the bottle seems pretty damn irrelevant. After all this reasoning, my brain hurt and I was no closer to an explanation. Then I was over at a friend’s house and happened to notice in his August copy of the leading consumer magazine that they had just rated beer. Guess what? Among imported lagers Heinekens came out first. Now before we conclude that this rating is based on prejudice, it should be noted that the tasting was a blind tasting (so they couldn’t see the green bottle or the label etc) done by beer experts. What’s more, while the tasting panel did fault many imported and domestic beers for staleness, skunkiness etc (including some Miller High Life even with its special hops), they found no similar problems with bottles of Heinekens. So now I wonder why the Chowhound boards have been so consistently wrong. Perhaps one of the problems with Chowhounds, like other kinds of dogs, is that we run in packs. Maybe after someone we respect very much writes that a restaurant or food product is good or bad, we tend to think that way too or even discount our own personal experience when measured up against an expert. What do the rest of you think? Tue Aug 07 12:58:08 -0700 2001 0 e.d. 1 1546334 Heineken was perceived to be a really good beer among my friends when I was younger, but I never liked the taste of it... I always thought it tasted somewhat off--not necessarily skunky, but *something*. Not knowing a whole lot about the mechanics of beer brewing, when somebody posted that the problem was that it was skunky from the green bottle, I took their word for it. I was trying to think of other green-bottle beers that I liked, but I couldn't, offhand, though there may be. In general I'd rather have darker beers, but if I'm going with a lager, my current favorite is Yuengling (which is ubiquitous in Philly but I can't seem to find in NY). Just out of curiosity, what other imported lagers were tasted? Tue Aug 07 13:40:16 -0700 2001 1546328 0 Allie D'Augustine 2 1546345 The ones tasted are the mass-market imports. As I wrote earlier, I'm not arguing that Heinekens is great--I just don't think it is consistently flawed. And it does have a taste that I can understand some people not liking. But my experience is that that taste is consistently there and is not a flaw. The other imports rated were: Kirin, Foster's, Asahi Super Dry, Labatt Blue, Tecate, St. Pauli Girl, Dos Equis Amber, Corona, Beck's, Molson Golden, Grolsch. This listing is in the order of how they finished. Also to note, they rated Sierra Nevada Pale Ale the best ale and a best buy. So these folks are not crazy. I'm not saying I agree with all their ratings, however, as they downgraded Rolling Rock for its corny flavor, which is what I always thought made it interesting and different. Tue Aug 07 15:52:30 -0700 2001 1546334 0 e.d. 1 1546335 I have always loved skunky lagers and light ales, in green bottles, served ice cold. Tue Aug 07 13:54:24 -0700 2001 1546328 0 2chez mike 1 1546340 I have had occasional skunky bottles of Heineken. I think the cause is less likely to be the color of the bottle as the fact that lots of places sell a good deal less of Heinekin that they do of more popular mass market beers. As a result the Heineken stock sits around getting old. Tue Aug 07 14:14:37 -0700 2001 1546328 0 Lex 2 1546379 Skunkiness is specifically related to exposure to light, and has nothing to do with age, other than that an older beer has had more chances to become lightstruck. The biggest consequence of age in a bottled beer is oxidation, which will give the beer a sort of wet cardboard flavor. I sincerely doubt that Heineken is sitting around getting old in bars. It's one of the biggest selling inports in the United States, and is a major player in other markets around the world as well. Until a few years ago, when Corona passed it, it was the #1 imported beer in the US. You don't sell that much beer by letting it sit around and get old. Wed Aug 08 05:47:12 -0700 2001 1546340 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1546386 Jim, I accept your point about skunkiness being due to light exposure. As to bad bottles or drafts in bars, ir really depends on the bar. A place with a mixed clientele (Bud drinkers and craft beer/import drinkers) will turn over their stock regularly and the beer will remain fresh. Second rate bars (the ones you wind up in inadvertantly while travelling) often serve sub-par bottles of the higher end stuff. Their Budweiser will be be fresh, and sometimes a safer (although far less tasty) choice. Perhaps they buy the good stuff infrequently and store it poorly, moving only a few bottles at a time to the fridge behind the bar. Anyway, my experience over the past 30 yeas has taught me that the higher end beers taste best in places that sell a lot of them. On a different topic Jim, what's your opinion on Czechvar, the new import version of the Czech beer Budweiser Budvar? Wed Aug 08 10:06:16 -0700 2001 1546379 0 Lex 4 1546391 I still think a big-seller like Heineken isn't going to languish long in any bar, but we both have our opinions, and that's fine. I haven't had Budweiser Budvar in a long time. It's due here in NoVA sometime in the fall. Michael Jackson says it's a bit sweetish, which is what I've heard from others as well. He gives it 3.5 stars out of 4. I try to follow the various court battles between Anheuser-Busch and Budweiser Budvar over rights to the Budweiser name, but there are many cases going on out there, so it's difficult. The interesting thing is that A-B was using the name before the Czech company existed. OTOH, Budweiser can be claimed to be a regional appelation, a beer from Budweis. Wed Aug 08 10:50:39 -0700 2001 1546386 0 Jim Dorsch 5 1546397 As a point of information before I forget, Eagle Provisions in Brooklyn carries both the big brown bottles and 6-packs of green bottles of Czechvar - took the brown home to husband a week or so ago (after this topic was last mentioned) - he thought it was a very good beer, well worth the 30cents premium over Bud. No earthshaking experience. The label was singularly devoid of claims - not even a town name was mentioned, I believe. since I dont participate in beer drinking, cant comment further. Wed Aug 08 11:59:33 -0700 2001 1546391 0 jen kalb 6 1546415 Ha! I'm happy to provide that bit of info. Czechvar is the name under which, in the US, the Czech brewery Budvar markets their beer, in many other (mostly European) countries known as "the original Budweiser", or "Budvar Budweiser". The name of the town where Czechvar/Budvar is made is Ceske Budejovice, a.k.a. Budweis, and the strife between Anheuser Busch and Budvar is a century old (and none too interesting). But there seems to be a universal agreement that the Czech Budweiser/Budvar, or "Czechvar" is far superior to the Bud (what isn't?); and, the taste of the fresh Budvar is again incomparably superior to that of the bottled stuff you can get here in the US. A few other Czech beer tips: "Czechoslovakian" (a.k.a. Radegast) is also available at some liquor stores, as is Lobko (average Czech beer), BrouCzech and there's also an excellent Slovak beer "The Golden Pheasant". And of course Pilsner Urquell. They have all these at the great "Thrifty American" liquor store on Smith Street and Butler, I think. Great place, good prices, lotsa beer. Wed Aug 08 18:30:50 -0700 2001 1546397 0 Katerina 7 1546425 There's also a nice Czech beer called Herold that can be found in some areas. One of the owners is an American who grew up in Arlington, VA. They have a Pilsner-style beer and also a black beer. Thu Aug 09 01:25:38 -0700 2001 1546415 0 Jim Dorsch 8 1546426 I've been pretty disappointed with Czech beers. Budvar aka Budweiser is a pale, pale shadow of versions I remember from years ago. Pilsner Urquell is kind of dead. And I haven't found anything to get excited about among the others (though i haven't yet tried all the beers mentioned in this thread). Really, the best Czech pilsener I've had in the past few years was the one made in NJ at Victory Brewing Company. See the 5/10 entry in my diary linked below for a full report on Victory's beers Link: http://www.chowhound.com/dinner/1-5-01.html Thu Aug 09 01:52:50 -0700 2001 1546425 0 Jim Leff 9 1546436 Tuppers' Pils is another good one, a tasty, unfiltered, German-style keller pils. Mmmmmm ... Thu Aug 09 08:04:28 -0700 2001 1546426 0 Jim Dorsch 10 1546550 I've been a beer lover and a homebrewer a long time, and, regarding the Heineken issue, I don't know if it is skunky or not. My guess would be that it is not, because I've had it in cans, and it tastes the same. Green bottles are bad, and used presumably as a marketing tool; however, I believe there is fast turnover with Heineken One beer that I believe is consistently skunky is Pilsner Urquell. In fact, a few years ago, after I opened a bottle, my wife came in the room and asked me if I smelled a skunk! Pilsner Urquell is an excellent beer, if you can get it fresh. I've had Czechvar, and it is good. A little milder, and sweeter than Pilsner Urquell. The best Czech Pilsener I've had is Rebel. I get it at Bottle King in Union, N.J. for $4.99 a six pack. I picked this beer over Pilsner Urquell (a good bottle) in a blind taste test. Interesting website. They claim their beer is superior because they haven't compromised their brewing methods (still use open fermentation) as Pilsner Urquell did (switched to closed fermentation and shortened the aging from 3 months to 2) and use brown bottles. This beer isn't even widely distributed in the Czech Republic, but it sells a lot more than Pilsner Urquell in the region where it is most available. Some of it is exported to Germany, and some to the U.S. This is the best Pilsner beer in the world, in my opinion. A great buy, and well worth seeking out. Sat Aug 11 10:30:50 -0700 2001 1546436 0 John Fox 11 1546855 DOES IT HAVE AN EXPIRY DATE ON IT? I'D LOVE TO TRY IT BUT...I'M ALWAYS AFRAID OF OLD BEER. IN FACT I WAKE UP @ NIGHT IN A COLD SWEAT THINKING ABOUT THE CRIMES DONE IN THE NAME OF EXPORT... Fri Aug 17 08:59:45 -0700 2001 1546550 0 IVAN STOLER 9 1546495 Jim, I can't remember where but there was a discussion recently about this issue. The bottles I had of Czechvar the other week were great. I have always been more of a Plzen fan but now things have changed. I had been to Plzen and Ceske Budovice back in 1985. Had them both super fresh and always always preferred Plzen. But... Plzen is a pale imitaion of it's former glory. Budvar for me all the way! Whoops, Czechvar for the lawyers. Fri Aug 10 13:48:57 -0700 2001 1546426 0 Ivan Stoler 10 1546497 Ok, if you have a long acquaintance with Budvar, I'll go with your impression and assume I had a bad bottle (it was straight from a case and very fresh, but...it happens!). I'll try again. I've got to remember to update that Victory Beer tasting report if it turns out I was wrong. ciao Fri Aug 10 13:53:18 -0700 2001 1546495 0 Jim Leff 10 1546506 Ivan, you and I discussed this a few weeks back on another thread. (See the 2nd part of the link for the Budvar discussion.) While I was diasppointed in my original tasting I've since gone back and tried Czechvar again. Its' a likeable but mildly flavored beer which should be drunk *before* drinking other stronger beers in order to fully appreciate its' flavor. Actually, it works extremely well as a summer beer and has an exceptionally clean finish which makes it very refreshing. As I said in my original review, however, it is not the Budvar available on draft in Central Europe. Since the Budvar folks seem to have overcome their legal obstacles it would be wonderful if they could import the "real" stuff in kegs. Can you imagine tipping back a few in the beer garden of the Old Bohemian Hall? Paradise. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/236572#1254272 Fri Aug 10 15:06:15 -0700 2001 1546495 0 Bob Martinez 11 1546516 When they do, just call me! I'll be there in a flash. Yeah, it's probably not the exact same stuff. I still think Czech beer when fresh and made the tradional way is the best in the world. I cry every time I think of what has happened to Plzen Pivo. Ah the fresh floral aroma of a long draft. I remember that it took as long to pull a draft of Plzen as it does for a Guinness! I heard an evil news report that the South African Breweries (who now own Plzen)plan to license the brewing of it to some Canadian brewery! Can you imagine Chateau La Tour or some other legendary winery doing that? This would truly be a crime against humanity! Fri Aug 10 17:04:48 -0700 2001 1546506 0 Ivan Stoler 12 1546526 Guinness Extra Stout for the US market is now coming from Canada. Fri Aug 10 21:18:51 -0700 2001 1546516 0 Jim Dorsch 6 1546416 Uh... I forgot to mention that the Thrifty American is on Smith Street in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, NY. I forgot this wasn't just a NYC page. Wed Aug 08 18:36:01 -0700 2001 1546397 0 Katerina 4 1546393 I did some work a few years ago with a major US brewer and in conversations, two points came up that bear on this topic: Apparently it does not take a lot of light exposure for a green bottled beer to turn skunky. They were having major problems with an import they handled in this regard, although I'm sure it had a lower turnover than Heineken. They claimed that part of the consumer's rejection of craft beers after the boom in the early to mid 90's was due to too many varieties sitting too long on the shelf and the flavor going off, compared to higher turnover imports or domestics. Wed Aug 08 11:17:21 -0700 2001 1546386 0 rjka 5 1546396 That last observation is right on target. There got to be so many varieties of microbrews, many with little or no support from the brewery in the marketplace, that consumers became confused and disappointed. Many of those breweries are gone today, with the void filled by imports, and hopefully some strong craft brewers as well. To me, the major imported beers are largely of the same style, which offers me little variety. But many consumers want just that style, and they like the consistency of the imports. Whatever you think of the type of beer they tend to make, they are consistent. Also, the big importers are probably better funded than the microbrewers who compete with them. Wed Aug 08 11:51:55 -0700 2001 1546393 0 Jim Dorsch 5 1546418 In 1987 I gave a talk to the national microbrewer's convention on a restaurateur's view of the craft beer business. The gist of my talk was that when the average customer got a bad bottle of Bud (yes, it does happen from time to time) he or she says, "Wow, a bad bottle of bud!" and reaches for the next bottle in the sixpack. But when that same customer gets a bad bottle of a microbrew he or she says "Wow, microbrews suck," throws out the rest of the sixpack, and never buys another. I may have exaggerated a bit, but I think much of what has happened in the craft (and I use the word loosely) beer business follows my prediction. Wed Aug 08 22:08:58 -0700 2001 1546393 0 Deven Black 6 1546424 I think it's safe to say the consumer has more faith in Anheuser-Busch than a microbrewery with a cute name, and an even cuter name on the beer. Thu Aug 09 01:22:55 -0700 2001 1546418 0 Jim Dorsch 6 1546428 Deven, I think the phenomenon that you pointed out re: beer (did you coin a name for it?) is true in many areas. 1. Someone tries Indian food for the first time; the restaurant is lousy. The patron thinks: "I don't like Indian food." 2. Someone meets a Malaysian for the first time. The Malaysian is rude. The "victim" thinks: "Malaysians are rude." I don't think the Bud reaction is irrational, though. Presumably, the patron has sampled many cases of Buds in his lifetime; one bad bottle is unlikely to turn him off for eternity. Thu Aug 09 02:12:23 -0700 2001 1546418 0 Dave Feldman 7 1546465 You are absolutely correct that the examples you cite are of the same syndrome -- whatever one call's it (no,I didn't name it). I'm always amazed by the human propensity to generalize based on a single anecdote. I've even heard scientists -- who should know better -- do it from time to time. Thu Aug 09 19:42:52 -0700 2001 1546428 0 Deven Black 6 1546433 Certainly they would never buy another bottle of that particular beer. I think the other problem that the craft brewers ran into is that the drinkers they appealed to were "grazers" who like to sample many beers without developing any loyalty to one brand, sort of like the high end of the wine market. The way to make money is to sell a customer a case of Bud or Heineken every week, not a six pack once a month, at best. Thu Aug 09 06:39:39 -0700 2001 1546418 0 rjka 1 1546344 E.D.-- Hey, if you like Heineken then by all means drink and enjoy! I think what you were hearing about the off, skunky taste was simply people reiterating the FACT that exposure to light (UV rays?) is what turns a beer "skunky." Green and clear glass offers no protection against this, thus the "slightly sour bitterness on your palate." Perhaps our resident beer expert Jim D could shed some more light (pardon the pun) on this subject. I, myself would rather not have a beer at all if I am offered a Heineken ... but it has nothing to do with Chowhound talk. More of a long-developed personal preference. Tue Aug 07 15:48:28 -0700 2001 1546328 0 Abbylovi 2 1546347 As I said earlier, I think there are better beers out there than Heineken. But sometimes, in small restaurants, it may be the only flavorful choice a chowhound is offered. Plus, I want someone to explain to me how light penetrates a cardboard case to make beer go skunky. Hmmm? Also, let me repeat again that these professional beer tasters did not notice this skunkiness while they did downgrade other brews for being stale or skunky. That is a FACT! So how come they couldn't taste this skunkiness if it is so readily found? I think you are confusing the taste of northern European hops with skunkiness. Bitterness is a part of the taste of real beer. What's more, I think that U.S. brewers have been waging an effective advertising blitz against imports by praising "freshness" and stigmatizing any bitterness, which can confuse Americans whose only beer experience is MGD Light. How can Budweiser, for example, rant on about freshness when their very label proclaims that their brew is "beechwood aged." In fact, the word lager itself means aged. As their market share dwindles, the major American brewers are frantically trying to confuse consumers about what is good beer, and I worry that some of my fellow chowhounds may have bought into this media campaign. Tue Aug 07 16:14:55 -0700 2001 1546344 0 e.d. 3 1546348 Storing beer in sunlight is bad for it, no question. Even if your bottle is brown, the sunlight will warm it up, and the best way to store it is in the refrigerator. But beyond that... Heinekin is the only beer I have heard of that supposedly acquires this skunkiness in storage, and it is the bad example always cited. (Grolsch, also a Dutch beer in green glass bottles, is not skunky here or in Amsterdam.) This summer I drank Heinekin at the factory, and there is no question in my mind now that they brew it that way on purpose. It's probably their own proprietary blend of hops that they use that gives it that taste. It's just a style of beer. Either you like it or you don't. Obviously the panel likes that sort of beer. I'm guessing they aren't professional beer tasters, so their personal preferences could clearly have skewed the results. By the way, even though the beer was free at the factory, I couldn't finish mine. Still not to my liking. Tue Aug 07 17:03:28 -0700 2001 1546347 0 ironmom 4 1546354 I agree, Heinekens is not to everyone's liking. It does have a particular identifiable taste. But my point is that every one I've ever tasted (at least that I can remember) has had that same taste regardless of whether it is fresh from a sealed case or not, and therefore, as your report from the brewery indicates, that must be the taste they want to achieve. I think, as you do, that it is the particular types of hops they use. Some other Dutch beers and the beers from Osnabruck (in far northwest Germany almost on the Dutch border) that I have tasted have seemed similar. The tasting panel for the consumer group is, in fact, composed of beer professionals, folks who taste and teach about beer as a profession. And it was a blind tasting, so they ranked the beers by taste, not by personal prejudice--though clearly everyone does have taste preferences. Thanks for your informative comments. Tue Aug 07 18:49:22 -0700 2001 1546348 0 e.d. 3 1546373 Anheuser-Busch can go on about beechwood aging and still say their beer is fresh because during aging the beer is alive, i.e., still on the yeast. Once it's filtered and packaged, the beer is inert, at least as far as yeast activity is concerned. At that point the beer is vulnerable and aging (the bad kind of aging) begins. Tue Aug 07 22:51:24 -0700 2001 1546347 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1546412 Good point, Jim. But it still seems to me that beer is not like fresh flowers. A beer, if treated right, should stay good for a few months. Since hops is a preservative (so I've read), it has occurred to me that perhaps freshness is more of a concern to brewers like A-B than to brewers of more heavily hopped beer. Wed Aug 08 17:41:36 -0700 2001 1546373 0 e.d. 5 1546423 I think it's safe to say that a properly treated beer will stay in pretty decent shape for three months or so. Hops are preservatives in the bacteriostatic sense. They're not going to fight oxidation. So, I would expect that two beers that are microbiologically stable, one hoppy and one not, treated identically, are going to oxidize at the same rate. Thu Aug 09 01:21:06 -0700 2001 1546412 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1546935 I agree with your statement about advertising influencing perception of freshness. Whether the culprit is deemed to be age or light, I don't think it is any coincidence that Heineken has been the most maligned. It has been singled out for skunkiness because of its market share as the leading import. The color of its bottle is just clever targeting. Many of the Belgian beers we are all so fond of probably see more shelf-time and more temperature-extremes than a typical Heineken, simply because they don't move as quickly. Yet no supposed beer connoisseur would ever criticize a Belgian beer for fear of impeaching his/her own taste. Heineken, however, is fair game as just another mass produced beer. If "skunk" is a real phenomenon, why is there no comparable German, Czech, or Belgian term for a "skunked" beer? These countries have been brewing beer in the modern sense for more than 500 years. Only in the US over the past 5-10 years have I encountered "skunk", the same time during which market share of the major US brands has come under attack by micros & imports. I find the idea of "skunk" dubious simply because it originated in, and is is unique to, the same country that holds Bud and Coors Lite in such high distinction (as shown by sales figures). Beer began as a way of preserving the potability of water. It was never meant to be fresh. Is this some new, more virulent strain of "time" that is attacking Heineken in the present age? I will always keep an open mind to evidence to the contrary, preferably scientific from a credible source. Until that time, I am convinced that I do smell a skunk: advertising. Mon Aug 20 13:33:53 -0700 2001 1546347 0 Will Fressen 4 1546943 Corona is the leading imported beer in the United States, not Heineken. While I agree that people are prone to jumping on the popular bandwagon, skunkiness is not an imaginary thing. There are specific chemical reactions that produce this phenomenon. Since they're strong, not generally hoppy, usually bottled in amber glass, and often bottle-conditioned, Belgian beers are typically sturdier than a filtered, light lager in a green bottle. But this is not always the case, as you might find by popping a bottle of Poperinge Hommelbier, a hoppy Belgian beer in green glass that in my experience has been obviously skunky when purchased in the United States. How do you know that the concept of skunkiness originated in the United States? How did you determine that beer was never meant to be fresh? Today's filtered beers certainly are meant to be consumed fresh. Sure, you can drink them when they're not fresh, if you don't mind deadened flavors, particulate matter floating in your beer, oxidation, etc. But that's not how they're meant to be consumed. It is true that Anheuser-Busch has run ads that claim skunkiness comes from age, which isn't true, except to the extent that age increases a beer's exposure to light. But I don't think that indicates a conspiracy on the part of American brewers. I don't have a lot of technical brewing books, nor do I understand all the chemical reactions occurring in beer, but I looked at the Dictionary of Beer and Brewing, which under the heading 'lightstruck' basically says that lightstruck flavor is caused by exposure to light, causing reactions of hydrogen sulfide and other sulfur compounds leading to the formation of phenyl mercaptan (3-methyl-2-butene-1-thiol), which imparts a skunklike flavor. Of course, this might all be made up, and the publishers of this book might just be part of the conspiracy. Mon Aug 20 17:06:32 -0700 2001 1546935 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1546953 I agree completely. I think that Orval is perhaps the best example of a Belgian ale that is consistently skunky after its journey to the US, and which many U.S. consumers are too intimidated to criticize. I have had so many bad bottles here, that I don't even bother to buy it in the U.S. anymore, despite the fact that it is one of my favorites. Most consumers just assume that the acrid taste of the imported product is what Orval is supposed to taste like. While proper Orval can certainly be said to be the most "exotic" in flavor of the Trappist ales, it is still delicious and rather easy to enjoy, and I think it would be much more appreciated here if the product could be delivered in good condition. As for the Budvar and Pilsner Urquell that is brought into the US, I think that the problem goes beyond the condition of the beer. It seems to me that the products sold here, don't taste anything even remotely like those available in Czecheslovakia (or in Germany, where the taste of the product seems to be preserved). I have to think that the recipe employed for the distant export market is just plain different. Mon Aug 20 19:45:41 -0700 2001 1546935 0 Makanmata Rob 2 1546372 It's hard to argue with the notion that a sealed 12pk shouldn't get skunked. And I would have to say that there is a certain pack mentality sometimes among beer geeks. And I'll also say that it's been a long time since I've had a Heineken. Yet, when I have an imported lager in a green bottle, it will often taste skunky. Bear in mind that a beer can become lightstruck pretty quickly. Tue Aug 07 22:47:04 -0700 2001 1546344 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1546351 Let me start by telling you how much I enjoyed reading your post. Re Heinekens: I think it has its own taste, one that someone either likes or dislikes. I've known people who wouldn't drink anything but a Heineken, and I've known others who wouldn't touch the stuff. I've gone back and forth on it myself, for long periods. I do know that when I haven't liked Heinekens, I did feel it had an off taste. But tastes, like all things, change, and when I got back on Heinekens (currently), I feel it has a really nice beer taste. Quick anecdote about my wife and Heineken. One very, vey hot day, years ago, we stopped in a pub to cool off and have a beer. She ordered a Heinekens (much to my surprise) but couldn't finish it. In fact, it made her sick. She didn't drink another for years. But in the past two years, she's tried it again (once again to my surprise) and now likes it quite a bit. I don't think Heinekens changed. I'm pretty sure that Maureen did. Anyway, nice post... Tue Aug 07 18:08:39 -0700 2001 1546328 0 George Lynch 1 1546759 As most of us know, Heineken is imported from Amsterdam. In fact, I spent several months in Amsterdam last year, where the choices are Heineken or Amstel (no Amstel Light however). So it seemed until I came across GROLSCH in Amsterdam's best hotel. Without a question GROLSCH is the best brew out of Holland and perhaps in the world. Certainly no American beer can measure up to any from Holland. I happen to like Heineken, Amstel, and Grolsch as my top three overall, only in reverse order (1)G, (2)A, (3)H. Give it a try. Link: http://www.grolsch.com Wed Aug 15 14:28:58 -0700 2001 1546328 0 Michael J. Gulden 2 1546773 It's a pretty sweeping statement to say your fave is perhaps best in the world. FWIW, Michael Jackson gives Grolsch two stars out of four, which would classify it as a serviceable brew, but hardly world-class. I would say it's a typical brew of its type. To say no American beer measures up to Holland's beers is laughable. Wed Aug 15 16:10:08 -0700 2001 1546759 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1546799 When I was in Amsterdam, I found they have two kinds of beer, "regular beer", Heinekin/Amstel/Grolsch, (what you will be offered) and the other kind, which you have to know to ask for. There are a lot of local microbrews available, in a wide variety of styles, but as a tourist you won't be offered them because most tourists don't want them. Thu Aug 16 08:00:34 -0700 2001 1546759 0 ironmom 2 1546857 Michael, Grolsch holds a dear spot in my heart, since it was what I was drinking when I met my wife. I like it too, sadly it suffers from the long ocean voyage from Amsterdam and poor storage conditions in the US and as a result it is rare to find a fresh non-skunked bottle. I am sure it doesn't sell fast enough or in enough volume to keep the stuff on the shelves really fresh. Fri Aug 17 10:21:46 -0700 2001 1546759 0 Hubey Plummer