What's a Reasonable Amount of Time Before Ordering?

This is prompted by a response to one of my posts on the Manhattan board, in which I mentioned that I thought our waiter was trying to rush us at a recent dinner. There were four of us, it was a Friday night, and we had ordered a bottle of white wine. The place wasn't crowded and we wanted to relax. The waiter asked us five minutes after we sat down if we were ready to order, and when we said no, he left only to return about 10 or 15 minutes later.

What do other chowhounds think is reasonable? Does it depend on time and place? If you are drinking wine or beer (or bottled water, for that matter), aren't you paying your way? I guess what I'm asking is how sensitive us diners should be to the restaurant's need/desire to turn over the table.

[Rick]

My opinion is that it all depends on the customer and what they're looking for. Most of the time we like to have our order taken quickly and for our bill to come quickly. I'd actually feel that I was getting slow service if the waiter came back 15 minutes later to take my order.

[babette feasts]

Weren't you there to eat? How long did you want to sit around drinking before ordering?

[rebs]

i don't think the waiter asking you if you were ready to order 20 minutes after you sat down was at all unreasonable or pushy. i know i would be ready to order after 20 minutes.

rather than "are you ready to order?" i prefer asking "are there any questions about the menu that i can answer for you?". it's a good way to help people decide on what they want and helps me figure how much more time they need (if they need it). it also gets the ball rolling without seeming pushy.

also, i've found it incredibly helpful when the guests tell me at the very beginning that they would prefer to finish their cocktails before they order. it takes the guess-work out of the job.

[HDinCentralME]

Assuming in the OP's situation that the waiter was trying to provide best service (rather than "rushing") the diners can/should say to the waiter "We'd prefer to sip our wine for a bit, we'll let you know when we're ready". The waiter can then say "Great, I'll keep my eyes open for your signal" (Or "well we really need this table at X'o clock so it may be best to at least order your appetizers").

Nothing wrong with actual communication of your wishes versus having someone try to read your mind.

[hotoynoodle]

even though you arrived and the place wasn't busy, i'm guessing the restaurant was planning to turn your table at least once, and possibly twice more, on a friday night. a four-top with a bottle of wine has the equivalent of one drink each in front of them. you don't state what kind of place this was, but most waiters are more worried you'll think you're being ignored if they leave you alone too long.

there's been alot of discussion lately on some ny times blogs about "lingering", and your post smacks of that. unless you're in a place like ducasse, no, you do not have the table for the night. most places figure a 2-hour turn, at most 2.5 hours. otherwise, the party after you is now kept waiting because you feel like you're "paying for your table."

as a restaurant professional i find the entitlement that some diners feel is just as obnoxious as rude service can be.

[hopalong]

I personally dont think there is anything wrong with the fact that there are many waiters and waitresses out there who are not career waiters (although career waiters and waitresses are often the best at what they do). i think restaurants do a service to the community by employing people who are simultaneously pursuing other careers. The more flexible hours of waiting tables allows artists, actors, musicians and students to support themselves and still have time to do whatever else it is they do.

I have been a waitress in the past and it allowed me to pursue education and other goals I wouldn’t have otherwise been able to.

Also, one last note on this subject, and I welcome comments on this if you think I am wrong - but I have found in many conversations regarding service it becomes very clear very quickly who has and who hasnt work as a waiter/waitress in the past. People that are the rudest and most demeaning to waitstaff are invariably those who have never waited tables themselves and dont understand how difficult it can be - especially when each customers comes to the table with different expectations, time limits, and demands that they fail to communicate to their waitperson.

I’m not saying that bad service or rudeness should be excused. I’m just saying if you’ve never worked in the service industry you don’t know how tough it is and maybe you should cut people come slack and not let a minor slip up “ruin your whole experience.”

[RiJaAr]

i have been a waitress,and i know how hard it can be. and i know many people do it just to pay the bills while going to college or what have you, but still, i think everyone should take their jobs seriously, attempt to be good at what they do, and try to excell at it, regardless of whether it is their chosen career, or just a job.
Just because you don't plan to do it forever is no excuse to be bad at it

[RiJaAr]

i think the main problem, is that so many waiters these days don't take their jobs seriously eneough to bother reading signals. It seems to be a jobs that so many take, just until something better comes up. At least, some of them do. How can we expect great service when so many waiters don't know what that is and don't even care.
But to answer your comment directly, some people are ready to order in 5 minutes and get impatient if the waiter isn't there, and 15 minutes before coming back to check seems like a reasonable time. i'd rather have the waiter come back than ignore us..

Reasonable times??
When we're seated a menu and request for a drinks order should take no more than 5 minutes to show up. Once "we" have placed our closed menus on the table I expect to place an order in no more than 5 minutes. The same 5 minute limits hold for getting the check after requesting it another 5 minutes for clearing a credit card or making change. I also expect that any time exceeding these 5 minute limits would merit a short courteous comment/explanation ( could be a quick " just a minute" or some such letting us know we are not forgotten.) Obviously if the waiters look harried the times are flexible but a comment is appreciated and only takes a few seconds.

This is exactly why my days in the service industry were such hell; damned if you, damned if you don't!

George,
I am inclined to agree with you... If you ordered a bottle of wine then you were definitely paying your way.
If you hadn't ordered anything I would think that 20 minutes is a pretty long time to be sitting in a restaurant with out purchasing something...of course, this wouldn't give the waiter the right to be rude.

Don't go by me, but i'm a fast one. Usually hungry when i sit down. So unless i'm with a large group, or, to paraphrase Bob & Ray, one of the Slow Orderers of America, i'm usually ready as soon as the server plunks my drink down on the table.

George - I didn't read the previous thread, so you may have explained some of the particulars about the situation, but, I'm inclined to think that the waiter might not have been as worried about turning over the table as just making sure you weren't ready to order after that amount of time. I can also hear the other clients who would say something like "and after giving us our drinks, they didn't even come back to take our order for another 10 minutes."

I'm inclined to agree with Terrie, but alot depends on the attitude of the waiter. If he was being solicitous he or she was doing the job properly. If the waiter gave off an air of impatience George is right to feel put upon. That said, ten minutes between inquiries is a reasonable time to wait: long enough to allow you to settle in, settle down, and peruse the menu, but short enough that you don't feel abandoned. If you are still not ready the waiter, rather than continuing to inquire, could reappear every ten minutes or so and pour the wine. That way you will know the waiter will be around so you can order when you are ready.

As a restaurant manager I train my staff to try to look for a clue as to whether the table is ready to order, needs more time, or might have some questions. It is something of a guessing game unless the table follows one time-honored but lately abandoned convention: when you are ready to order you close your menu or, in the case of one page menus, you put it down. That signals that you know what you want, even if you then have to re-open your menu to actually order it.

Knowing how to "read your tables" is part of the whole skill of waiting. It is a difficult, under-appreciated trade though one that will never disappear in this society. This thread should educate all of us as consumers. Knowing what you hope a wait person may interpret, associate or any manner of understanding human nature is something taken for granted. The pressure is on! Time depends on each person at each table. A good waiter will take control of this and service the table by taking into account the folks seated there. This is pretty simple if the waitperson feels confident & interested in their position, bottom-line. A server "controls the service", sets the mood, represents the business, everything that a first impression could involve. Bad service, in my opinion, is always due to people who are in the industry for fast money.This concept backfires always, guaranteed. The satisfaction of providing a wonderful evening, being involved and acknowledged has no value these days for many & it is a sad, sad thing.

I couldn't agree more. There is nothing quite like being served by a confident professional who takes satisfaction from doing the job as well as they can. That should be the criteria for all waiters. Unfortunately, if that were so, Americans would have to eat at home much more often than they currently do as there would be far fewer restaurants open, mainly due to the lack of waitstaff.

That said, even the most confident, creative, professional waiter depends on communication with the table to do the job. Communication is a two-way process. While the good waiter will take control of the table, it is the responsibility of the people sitting at the table to communicate their needs clearly and unambiguously. While bad service is always the fault of the restaurant staff (back of the house included!), unclear expectations and unclear communication by the customer can contribute to an unsatisfactory outcome.

Being able to enjoy dining in a restaurant depends on an awful lot of small things being done very well. There is no pleasure at all for me if I am constantly worrying about when I am going to see a menu, when will someone take my drinks order, how long before I can get some bread. Even if the food, when it arrives, is fantastic, the evening is spoilt.

I live in Brighton, UK, which is full of small badly run and overpriced restaurants. However, hope springs eternal and I usually give the latest opening a try. I was rewarded when I tried a place called "Saucy".

I knew I was on a winner from the moment I stepped through the door. The place was small, busy and had just two waitresses. Although both were serving, I was immeadiately acknowledged with a smile and a "be right with you". We were seated, given menus, brought drinks and bread all within 5 minutes of arriving, which effectively brought front of house all the time in the world for the rest of the evening. Because I was secure in the knowledge that we were in good hands, I let them dictate the pace of the evening, which is exactly how it should be I believe.

It doesn't really matter if a meal takes 1, 2 or 4 hours, as long as you can feel that is how long it should be taking, and that's the essence of good service.

Yes, Andy, you've hit the nail on the head. The role of the waiter is to create an atmosphere where the customer can relax and enjoy. The details of that atmosphere may vary from place to place, but the role is unchanging.

There used to be -- and maybe still is -- a place in Boston famous for its elderly, nasty, waitresses who would not hesitate to tell one where to get off. Not my cup of tea, but for those who sought out that place that was what the wanted. It was just another way of saying "Mom is here and everything will be okay." And that, not which fork goes where, is what service is all about.

sounds like Durgin Park. but the flip side of the coin was FAST service!!

Yes, Durgin Park's the place. And the service was very fast. Wish the food were better.

First, great to have you pros discussing here. Great eavsdropping!

coupla things:

1. what happened to the old fashioned sorts of restaurant signals customers used to do? Spoon in bowl says one thing, spoon on table another, spoon laid across rim of bowl still another? Same with menu position...open, closed, on table. I never really learned this stuff...it was more my father's generation. But I suppose it was a LOT easier to wait tables back when there was all this etiquette to clearly communicate customer needs

2. I hate waiters constantly interrupting my conversation to make frequent official pronouncements. But a non-verbal "order now?" eyebrow cocked walk-by is NEVER pushy, IMO. You suggested a ten minute limit, but I expect a pass-by before then, followed by a more formal "may I take your order" at more or less ten. And I personally like it when waiters stop by to offer to help with the menu or provide tips (so long as they don't give the impression that I seem clueless and in NEED of help!) prior to the order visit, but that's something that varies with the table, I know.

To address the reverse: if the restaurant's busy, I'm MUCH happier with a waiter who gives me an abashed "just one sec" gesture when the gap starts getting too wide. There's an enormous difference between waiting fifteen minutes to order in a vacuum and waiting fifteen minutes with due acknowledgement. Waiter doesn't have to be all chatty, just let me know I'm not forgotten, and update at proper intervals. I can forgive an awful lot if I know I'm not forgotten/ignored.

Just my two cents...

Yes, waiting tables would be a lot easier if all the old social conventions of what to do with one's silverware and menu were followed. Neither the waiters nor the customers seem to know them anymore. This is part of the price we pay for increased social diveristy. It is a small cost. I guess we could hand out copies of Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior to everyone, or just realize that life is more complicated and subtle than it used to be and, unfortunately, mistakes will occasionally be made.

Watiers should never interrupt conversation. On the other hand, customers should be aware that the waiter hovering nearby is not there because the conversation is so fascinating that he simply MUST listen in. As I said in my earlier post, good table service requires the participation of both the server and the customer. Talk all you want, but when you see the waiter waiting patiently for an opportunity to solicit questions, take the order, inquire whether another bottle of wine is desired, or attempt to interest you in the chocolate cake, come up for air and give him the opportunity to do his job without interrupting you.

Yes, a waiter should pass by almost immediately if only toSHOW you who your server will be. The waiter should give his name only if asked by the customer. The usual "hi, my name is Deven and I'll be your server tonight," while intended by the restaurant management to be a warm introduction, is usually recited so robotically that it serves more as a barrier to communication than the creation of a relationship.

The waiter might engage in some appropriate banter or small talk if the occasion, and style of the restaurant, permits. Something along the lines of, "Thank you for comming on such a rainy day. Your glasses are all wet. Let me bring you a towel." Or something else that is timely, fits the situation, opens a dialog, and creates an opportunity to provide a special service, introduce the restaurant's specialty, or create a festive atmosphere.

Yes, when the place is busy, the waiter or bartender should at least acknowledge that they know you are there.Customers can usually see that a place is busy and don't mind waiting a few minutes as long as they are not ignored. Most staff understand this. My experience is that the worst cases of waiter inattention occur after the check is dropped on the table. It really burns me when I'm ready to leave and I have to go find my waiter so I can pay him. It can really ruin an otherwise great experience.

"the waiter hovering nearby is not there because the conversation is so fascinating that he simply MUST listen in"

Heh. But it's that hover I don't like. I'd like to deal with the waiter when we're darned ready, and the high-profile hover puts pressure to fit the announcments from the cockpit into his/her timing agenda rather than ours. Come over when you spot a gap. Even in the chattiest group, there WILL be a point when the table shuts up and eyes start scanning the horizon for service.

Of course, this is at a fairly high-end place, not sizzler. at sizzler, I do my duty and fit the restaurant's schedule.

" It really burns me when I'm ready to leave and I have to go find my waiter so I can pay him. It can really ruin an otherwise great experience."

Leaving (slooooowly) is always an option.

At the bar of Tavern on the Green Saturday night (see my "what I had for dinner last night" page), I asked the bartender for the check, and he said he didn't do that. I asked a waitress and she sneered at me. Ten minutes later (no problem, I was talking to a magician), no check for my four drinks, so I dropped a five on the bar for the bartender and walked downstairs to be seated for dinner. Toxic Waitress(TM) followed in hot pursuit with check, dangling me my five back like it was infected and informing me of my obligation to pay in a capitalist society. It was a double delight for me...she had to run up and down the steps a second time to bring change, plus I saved myself a tip. Though I've been feeling badly about the bartender (not THAT badly, though, seeing as how it took him literally 20 minutes to serve me at a bar with three customers...and he was nearly as nasty as the waitress).

After a meal where the staff isn't helping you pay, rising and putting on coats is a wonderful accelerator. Sometimes you actually have to start walking toward the door. That's the good thing about checktime...it's one of the few situations where your interest is wonderfully synchronized with the house interest, regardless of the house's attitude toward service.

I agree that the waiter should not hover as his usual approach to the table, but there are times when a waiter needs to deliver a timely bit of information ("So sorry, but we've just had an accident in the kitchen and we cannot make your lobster. Might I suggest the hallibut instead.") or request more information before an order can be processed ("Yes, the chef says he can make it without peanuts but the butter is essential. Would you still like the dish or prefer something else.") The point being that ESPECIALLY when the waiter does not ordinarily hover, the fact that he is means something.

As for walking out on a check because of bad service after the check's presentation: Jill and I did this once at a certain Mexican restaurant in Orangeburg, NY. The greeting and ordering went smoothly, Drinks arrived without delay. The apps and entrees came in a reasonable time and were very good. When he delivered the entrees it was the last we saw of our waiter. I would have ordered another beer, maybe two. But the waiter was nowhere around. We finished eating, no waiter. Half an hour went by, the remnants of dinner congealing on our uncleared plates, no waiter. Mind you, the restaurant was full when we entered and we were served well. Now it was nearly empty and no service.
Fifteen minutes later we got up, put our coats on, and walked through the whole dining room where we saw our waiter in deep conversation with the customers at another table. We walked right past him, past the owner at the counter, into the parking lot, and unlocked and entered our car. I was about to drive away when Jill began to feel guilty.

We went back into the restaurant, told the owner of our problem. He then got the waiter, who denied ignoring us. We paid the check, stiffed the waiter, and have not been back, which is too bad because the food was pretty good, especially the pumpkin soup.

[susancinsf]

I can't figure out why the menu position thing has gone by the wayside. I never learned it as a signal as such, it just always seemed like common sense to me: if the waiter thinks you are still reading the menu, why would it make sense for them to come take your order?....

and yet, others don't seem to get this: I find myself *constantly* having to ask hubby if he would please close his menu and put it down since he knows what he wants...half the time he isn't even looking at it but will still hold it open! Drives me *crazy*!

What strikes me is that expectations are very subjective - if you dont express them, the waiter won't know. Waiters are not mind readers. and adherence to one persons "five minute rule" will ruin the relaxed evening of another person. It might help the waiter if the customers communicated they wanted to relax a bit before, or on the other hand, that they are ready to order, have a limited amount of time, etc. We tend generally to like to order and be served rather rapidly - we dont want to get tiddly waiting for the meal to arrive, and want the bottle of wine to last through the meal. Or my husband will not want to drink more than a couple of beers. It can be annoying to feel that the server is prolonging the ordering and food delivery phase in order to get us to order more drinks!

Yes, this is what I think I've been saying. Good service is a dialog between the server and the customer. Communication MUST be two-way. The waiter should be sensitive to subtle clues, but the customer should not be overly subtle. I have no problem telling a waiter if I am in a hurry or want to stretch the evening out. I've never met a waiter who did not respond to my explicit comment at the start of the evening. Once I make myself clear as to my expectations I can relax and enjoy myself -- even if I am in a hurry.

You are totally right, Deven. Just letting the server know "where-you-are-at" is all it takes is making the evening work for everyone, including those in the kitchen. There is a phrase that is far over-used by wait people for me these days . . . "it's all good". It sends me through the roof! When anything seems not totally in control, I hear this phrase (I live in Calif., maybe that's part fo it.) but I tell ya', it's down-hill from there.

Just a guess, but I'll wager that in places where you hear "its all good" the waitstaff never actually gets to taste the same food served to customers. And do you really want them to tell you something is not good? I know, they should be able to recommend something, but if they never taste the stuff how can they?

What I mean by the saying "It's all good" has nothing to do with tasting food. It has to do with the attitude of the staff. It's right in there with the ole "Don't worry, be happy" phrase from days ago. So when I'm standing on the sidelines at work, seeing a disgruntled customer/table and when I ask the waiter what's going on, that's their answer, it sends me. When I'm in a restaurant and I have been seated but have not seen a waiter, menu nor acknowledgement and that is the response from the hostess when I ask for service, I see red. I don't know why, but I hear this phrase way too often. That's what I am referring too.

Ah, now I understand what you're talking about and I agree completely!!! I too hate it when a waiter is too lazy or disinterested to pay attention, give an honest answer, or put some effort into the job.