286631 Thu Oct 05 17:55:27 -0700 2000 38 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1537958 "Melanie,thanks for the tip. I like Riesling but my favorite white is New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. I enjoy Goldwater, Cloudy Bay and Nautilus -basically anything from Marlborough. Love those tropical flavors." Howard, on Tuesday I had the chance to try nearly 50 new releases, red, white and sticky, from NZ. This was my first taste of any Y2K wines! I can’t think of any wine region that’s making such consistently high quality wines as NZ. In the last decade the number of wineries has increased from 131 to 358, and the new players have the benefit of advances in viticulture and vinification to create terrific wines right of the box. The 2000 Goldwater "Dog Point" Marlborough SB was the best of the Sauvignon Blancs – very floral nose with intense aromas of pear drops, melon and gooseberry, ripe tropical fruit and citrus on the palate with attractive herbal undertones, zippy finish. My own tastes tend more toward the grassy styles but there was no denying the exceptional quality of this one. Neither Nautilus nor Cloudy Bay were represented at the tasting. I liked the early Cloudy Bays when they were still raging with jalapeño peppers and cat pee. They’re too tame now and toned down, not nearly as unique, and the oak quotient seems to have increased in recent vintages. Nautilus makes a very nice SB too. I tried all three of the Villa Maria SBs and they’re as steady as ever, the Private Bin 2000 is still a best buy. As much as I enjoy Kiwi SBs, I think the Rieslings (when they’re not too sweet) are even better, although we don’t see them as much in the US. I hope they won’t tear out the vines in favor of SB and Pinot Noir, which are the most fashionable in NZ these days. The wine I liked the best was the 1999 Felton Road Central Otago Dry Riesling – More austere and minerally nose with green apple, mouth-coating and almost oily mouthfeel with impressive weight and density, powerful finish. The Pinot from this producer was very nice too – they’re really hitting on all cylinders here. Thu Oct 05 17:55:27 -0700 2000 0 Melanie Wong 1 1537959 Not only is NZ Sauvignon Blanc great but you get a lot of bang for the buck. Goldwater goes from $15 to $18 a bottle. It's difficult to find NZ Riesling in New York. Pinot Noir is supposed to be up and coming from NZ but the few available here are expensive.Nautilus also makes a very pleasant light fruity Chardonnay.Theres a good Thai restaurant here,Holy Basil, with an very interesting wine list. Has German,Austrian,NZ wines. Even has Viognier.(Great bouquet but short finish.) Thu Oct 05 18:34:43 -0700 2000 1537958 0 howard 2 1537962 There are still good values to be found in NZ Sauvignon Blanc. But the amount of new French oak on the Pinots puts most prices north of $30, and not worth it in most cases. Vines are very young, some only 4 yrs. old or so, and not putting out much intensity. Martinborough (vines are 20+ years old and you can taste the difference) and Ata Rangi are the best I've tried so far. Felton Road is also very good. Haven't been able to sample Dry River yet, which is supposed to be very special. Good Viogniers are hard to find. I tried a dozen ok ones last weekend, nothing to write home about. Sadly the 98 Guigal "La Doriane" Condrieu is tarted up with way too, too much oak, getting in the way of potentially fabulous ripe fruit aromatics. Thu Oct 05 20:17:36 -0700 2000 1537959 0 Melanie wong 3 1537966 I agree with you about Viogniers,so much depends on the vintage here. Never had a Condrieu they're very expensive.Is the Ninth Island Pinot from Tasmania worth trying? Thu Oct 05 23:52:19 -0700 2000 1537962 0 howard 4 1537967 Haven't had 9th Island Pinot - that's the second label of Piper- something? How much is it? I haven't yet had an Oz PN that rocks me. Tasmania is plenty cool enough and should have good potential as experience develops. Fri Oct 06 03:33:05 -0700 2000 1537966 0 Melanie Wong 5 1537970 9th is about $15. Usually drink David Bruce,Sokol Blosser,Steele or Sanford Pinots. They're all reasonably priced. Never had a Pinot from Oz. I just had a Greg Norman Shiraz that was very tasty. Fri Oct 06 12:59:01 -0700 2000 1537967 0 howard 6 1537974 Howard, if you can find a Pinot Noir that you like for $15, stock up. I’ll be interested in hearing what you think of the 9th Island. I did try one inexpensive PN from Australia this week that had some character. James Halliday’s winery Coldstream Hills in the cool Adelaide area was one of the pioneers of the variety in Australia. He’s still responsible for the winemaking but has sold the property to Southcorp who distributes the wines widely. Here’s my note. 1998 Coldstream Hills Pinot Noir, $10 – Light almost brickish color, dried red cherry and cranberry fruit, light-bodied with delicate red fruit expression, no obvious oak crisp finish. GOOD There’s a funny market psychology going on with this grape variety. Retailers are saying that the people who are really into Pinot Noir don’t believe you can get quality for less than $40. Good PNs in the $15-30 range are in "no man’s land", meaning that collectors’ ignore them and they’re too expensive for the average consumer. So the top producers have all bumped up their price points and sell out faster at the higher prices! That’s quite a range of Pinot Noir styles and terroir that you like. I’m very fond of David Bruce wines and the man. Maybe because he’s another of those doctor/winemakers, I’ve read up on the history of his wives and winery or having tasted several of his early experiments/mistakes. He may be gray but he’s still devilish. The last time I saw him at the winery, he said good-bye with a major hug. Not one of these polite across the shoulders pats. Rather an all-embracing, full-body press and run his hands up and down my torso kind of body check. He says he used to try to make his wine long-lived, now he’s striving for maxiumfruit and approachability. That’s what I find in tasting them too. The Central Coast PN for under $20 is really nice, the Santa Cruz Mountains PN is top of the line, the Russian River Valley PN has too much wood (which he admits) and the Chalone PN can be very fine. His Petite Syrah (that’s the spelling he’s used historically) from Paso Robles, especially Shell Creek Vineyard, is delicious and drinkable young - the silkiness of structure and full-fruit shows that a Pinot-lover made them. I like Jed Steele’s wines, particularly when he works with Mendocino County fruit, both Pinot Noir and Zinfandel. He’s stretching himself making too many wines, I suspect, as some suffer from sloppiness. I’ve liked the lower-priced wines better as they have less new oak and show purer albeit less concentrated fruit. I should have the chance to taste his new releases next month. 1998 is a spotty vintage on Calif,’s North Coast (Sonoma, Napa, Lake & Mendo) so taste before you buy in quantity. Sanford is one of the few Santa Barbara-area Pinots that I like relatively consistently. The strawberry/marinara sauce character of Bien Nacido vineyard, for example, turns me off. The Sanford & Benedict vineyard bottling can be very fine. It’s been a while since I’ve had a Sokol Blosser PN. In general I like the cool climate character of OR Pinots but you have to know your vintages. 1998 is supposed to be an excellent year, and 1999 not far behind. My favorite vintage was 1993, the wines from the best producers have improved in the cellar and are holding well. Sat Oct 07 00:35:17 -0700 2000 1537970 0 Melanie Wong 7 1537976 The Steele I have is a basic 97 Carneros which I've had in restaurants and once at home at Thanksgiving. (Gobble,gobble) The 97 Sokol Blosser has a spicy smoky tinge-very good with pork with fruit sauces. I'm holding off on trying some 1996 Chelalem 3 Vineyard PN that I have for at least a year.Lately I've been buying 1998 Chateauneufs- Aurore Gauthier and P.Coulon Domaine De Beaurenard.98 is supposed to be a very good vintage. Sat Oct 07 01:04:39 -0700 2000 1537974 0 howard 8 1537979 1997 was a pretty nice vintage for reds on the North Coast and you can buy with confidence. Southern Rhones rock in 1998 - this is place to put your money. But do be cautious about some of the big houses who bought in more juice than usual when the vintage started attracting attention. Quality may not be consistent with the change in sources. This won't be a problem for estate-bottled wines. If you like Chateauneauf, you might want to try Gigondas too for a little less money and earlier drinking. In such a fine year, they're better than a CdP from lesser vintages. Sat Oct 07 01:23:03 -0700 2000 1537976 0 Melanie Wong 9 1537981 I had a Guigal Gigondas that took three years to smooth out,then it was great. I also had Vacqueyras from Domaine Amouriers which was good but would have been better if I waited. The 98 Amouriers is supposed to be tops. Sat Oct 07 02:02:23 -0700 2000 1537979 0 howard 7 1537978 At restaurants when one person orders fish and another meat I sometimes drink red Sancerre. Some are too weak and lack depth. My favorite multi-purpose red is Chinon. Sat Oct 07 01:20:27 -0700 2000 1537974 0 howard 8 1537980 Yes, Cab Franc is wonderfully food friendly due its balance of high acid and low tannin. I like the young fruity-style of red Sancerre/Chinon in very, very, very ripe years. But otherwise, the veggies of Loire Valley Cabernet Franc sends me screaming from the room. Some bottlings of Jouguet, probably the best Chinon producer, remind me of rusty nails, asparagus and raspberry juice. Sat Oct 07 01:27:07 -0700 2000 1537978 0 Melanie Wong 9 1537982 If you don't drink your veggies, no dessert!(No Yquem for you) Sat Oct 07 02:06:01 -0700 2000 1537980 0 howard 10 1537992 Chinon and its cousins are perhaps the only wine style that I can't get fully behind. I pride myself on being omni-vinous and appreciating different tastes even though they may be out of fashion or obscure. The fresh fruity style is fine in ripe years, the aged ones don't do much for me. The d'Yquem's already in the line-up for next weekend . . . (g) Sat Oct 07 17:35:28 -0700 2000 1537982 0 Melanie Wong 11 1537994 I think with Cab Francs it's love or hate. I'm considering giving a bottle of 1990 Yquem for a wedding present. Sat Oct 07 23:18:19 -0700 2000 1537992 0 howard 12 1537996 Terrific idea for a wedding present - you can tell them to open it on one of their big anniversaries. It's been about 3 years or so since I triend the 88 and 90 side-by-side. At the time I had a distinct preference for the 88 - much richer flavors, more botrytis, denser on the palate. The 90 was still awesome but didn't seem to be the best of the best that Yquem should deliver each year. I'll be opening the 90 next weekend if you can standby. . . Sun Oct 08 16:03:24 -0700 2000 1537994 0 Melanie Wong 13 1538005 Thanks,will standby. The 90 drink date is 2010, the 89 is 2020. I know the 89 is about $90 more than the 90. I'm not familiar with the 88. Sun Oct 08 19:37:11 -0700 2000 1537996 0 howard 14 1538011 The time I tried the 88 and 90 together, I also sampled the 89 which came in third place. I tasted the 89 alongside the 91 about a year ago, and in that company it shined, although it is still a couple steps behind the 90 and 88. I'm surprised that 89 would be given a maturity date 10 years beyond the 90 and that it would be more expensive. That's not the case in the SF market. Mon Oct 09 00:29:32 -0700 2000 1538005 0 Melanie Wong 14 1538187 Last week I opened the 1990 Chateau d’Yquem and was surprised at how grapey and youthful it is. It has a certain restraint and poise with more primary fruit showing through and not so dominated by botrytis as I remember the 1988. It reminded me of the comparisons some have made between the 1975 and 1976. Early on 1976 was bolder and more heavily botrytized, but in recent years, many say that the elegance and balance of the 1975 makes it the superior wine. I suspect that the same comparison could be made about the 1990 and the 1988. If you think your friends will drink their bottle soon, the 1988 makes a bigger statement, whereas the 1990 may be the one you want to drink in 20 years. Mon Oct 23 02:27:37 -0700 2000 1538005 0 Melanie Wong 15 1538239 Thanks for the tasting tip,will go with the 1990. Thu Oct 26 20:48:32 -0700 2000 1538187 0 howard 9 1537984 "My favorite multi-purpose red is Chinon" (Howard) amen! mine, too! i find saumur champigny, bourgueil, chinon eminently every-day drinkable. too, there are some fascinating paprika scented versions of cab franc from northern italian. most of my favourites are the refreshing unwooded styles, but i'd agree joguet makes some interesting wines: in fact, his best wine, clos de la dioterie, is what berry brothers here has been sending me to try, and its been nice to have a weightier version to counterbalance all the lighter reds. the best match for the clos de la dioterie for me has been with goulash, what has it been for you? Sat Oct 07 09:33:35 -0700 2000 1537980 0 howler 10 1537985 Howler, I drink a lot of Joguet at home and often bring it to dinner with friends. Saumur I sometimes have with fish. Next time I have goulash at my parents I'll try some Chinon.They also have Chicken Papricosh with dumplings(Nuchila).(Can't spell Hungarian) Have yet to try Northern Italian Cab Franc,don't they require some aging? The best thing about Cab Franc is that they are great food friendly wines.Best Chinon combo yet was with a pork stew. Sat Oct 07 10:51:50 -0700 2000 1537984 0 howard 10 1537986 Howler I notice you as so many others dislike overoaked wines.American chard is the most obvious example of drinking a tree as is that phoney Fume Blanc. You probably know about Sancerre.Chablis and Pouilly Fume which often use steel barrels. Sat Oct 07 11:04:45 -0700 2000 1537984 0 howard 10 1537990 My favorite wine shop in London (although I've only shopped there twice) is La Vigneron. One of the pioneers of French country wines, carrying many of the same producers as Kermit Lynch has in the US. You should get on the mailing list - lots of interesting tastings. Sat Oct 07 17:20:52 -0700 2000 1537984 0 Melanie Wong 9 1537995 I always get the wet-stones thing from Jouget's Chinons myself, especially from the Clos de Dioterie, and I like them a lot, especially with salmon. No red I know does the minerally thing quite so well. Whenever California producers decide to make a cab franc (often as a one-off), I am also well pleased, although they tend to emphasize huge fruit--Napa terroir hasn't much in the way of minerals to express. And come to think of it, one of the greatest Italian wines is also cab franc--the awesome Alzero from Quintarelli, which is essentially an Amarone made from cabernet franc instead of valpolicella, and whose profound, raisiny concentration makes barolo seem like tavel. Sun Oct 08 10:58:19 -0700 2000 1537980 0 Pepper 10 1537997 Yes, Cabernet Franc does express minerality so well. What I also love about the grape variety is the lift to a wine's bouquet - aromas of lavendar and violets - that add so much even when only about 5-10% of the cepage. The Napa style goes for such extreme ripeness overtaking the floral and mineral subtleties. The American public is so adverse to any hint of veggies, the vintners require super-ripeness to make sure there's not hint of green. I do think the minerality and more Bordeaux-like character that you'll find in Opus One comes in part from the good dose of Cab Franc in the blend. One of my friend's family old vineyard provides much of the OO CF, he's just started to vinify some of the fruit under his own label. I've tasted samples from the non-commercial 96 & 97 vintage which are fantastic. Commercial production started with 99, so it will be a few more years before you can buy them. There are some attractive Cab Francs coming from the Santa Barbara area. Can't think of specific producers at the moment. San Leonardo from the Veneto makes a Bordeaux-blend with a healthy dose of Cab Franc that is lovely, more elegant than Super Tuscans. And, of course there's always Cheval Blanc . . . I have not had Quintarelli's Alzero, although I have loved other wines from this producer. What do you think is the outlook for Amarone-style wines? Sun Oct 08 16:16:38 -0700 2000 1537995 0 Melanie Wong 11 1538001 Try the Cabernet Francs from Long Island, if you haven't already. I loved Schneider's '96 in its prime (which is probably past by now), and tasted a great Pellegrini '97 or so at Union Square Wines in New York. Patrick Sun Oct 08 18:24:00 -0700 2000 1537997 0 Patrick A. 12 1538004 Patrick-if you like New York wines check out a new store in Soho called Vintage on Broome Street. You can taste the wines and it's open on Sunday because they also produce their own. Sun Oct 08 19:31:59 -0700 2000 1538001 0 howard 13 1538041 hi Howard Thanks for the recommendation -- I've been meaning to check out Vintage for some weeks now but haven't had a chance to get there. The Sunday opening hours are wonderful (and revolutionary). I'm very curious to taste the non-L.I. wines they carry -- I've never tasted any Finger Lakes or Hudson River Valley wines. do they offer tastings on every wine they carry?? Best, Patrick Tue Oct 10 23:02:58 -0700 2000 1538004 0 Patrick A. 14 1538043 The Finger Lakes specializes in Rieslings, which are very good. The day I was there they let me drink anything for free but normally I think they charge you. All wines can be tasted however.Probably on weekends they let you taste the 3 for the day free. It's a very attractive place. If you go there on a Sat., go acrooss the street to Broadway Panhandler ,a kitchen supply and tableware store. They often have cooking demonstrations. The chef from Judson Grill was there that day. Wed Oct 11 00:11:52 -0700 2000 1538041 0 howard 12 1538010 I've had some Chardonnays from LI, but not any reds yet. A few years ago I stopped by to visit some friends in Rhode Island after a trip east for a Bordeaux blow-out. They'd been obsessing over what could they possibly serve me after the Bordeaux thing, and my being from Calif., then settled on a range of NE wines from the Finger Lakes, New England and Long Island. I remember a Cabernet Franc that might have been from Standing Stone that was very good. Mon Oct 09 00:26:58 -0700 2000 1538001 0 Melanie Wong 13 1538013 Melanie, you'll be in for a surprise when you taste them again. Long Island wines in particular have made amazing strides in the past six or seven years. And the style of winemaking is much more restrained than it is in California, for instance. The chardonnays tend not to clobber you over the head with oak--simpler wines are very drinkable, and the more ambitious wines can be, to use a cliché, fairly Burgundian. Still, I have the feeling the producers are looking for terroir. Cabernet francs are my favorite of the reds. And the merlots aren't bad either. I haven't made any kind of organized notes yet--I've missed a few tastings at Vintage NY shop lately, and I'm trying to make time to get there, as well as getting out to the North Fork and visiting wineries... Do you see these wines on the shelves in the Bay Area at all? Mon Oct 09 09:07:56 -0700 2000 1538010 0 Leslie Brenner 14 1538044 Hargrave and Palmer I've seen on the shelves out here. And, I think I've tasted Sag Pond, Pindar and Lenz too. Jim Clendenen, the mind behind Au Bon Climat, describes the character his Santa Barbara terroir gives Chardonnay as "Long Island Chard on steroids". He loves the clarity of fruit, harmony and bright acidity of LI wines. Wed Oct 11 01:55:56 -0700 2000 1538013 0 Melanie Wong 14 1538947 MY COMPLIMENTS TO ALL THOSE AT CHOW HOUND.COM WHO HAVE PUT THIS CONCEPT TOGETHER. IT REALLY WAS TIME THAT THE ESSENCE OF DINING OUT WAS ADDRESSED BEYOND SOME OF THE CONFINES THAT YOU POINT OUT SUCH AS TREND ,HYPE,AND PRETENSE. YOUR APPROACH IS CONTRASTED WITH AN ARTICLE THAT APPEARED IN ZAGATS ABOUT A SNACK BAR THAT WAS CONVERTED TO A RESTAURANT. LITTLE WAS DONE WITH THE ORIGINAL BUILDING .CRAMPED ,NOISEY SEATING IN A VIRTUALLY UNDECORATED ROOM IS FAR FROM WHAT ONE WOULD HOPE FOR IN ONE OF THE MOST HIGH PRICED RESTAURANTS IN THE AREA. THE VIEW IS OF A BLACKTOPPED PARKING AREA ,CAR ROOFTOPS AND A DISAPPOINTING GLIMPSE OF THE NEARBY WATER.. THE PRETENTIOUS MENU STATED THAT YOU COULD ORDER "CHEF SELECTED MT SINAI OYSTERS". I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS MEANT TO IMPRESS SOMEONE WHO HAD DRIVEN 70 MILES FROM MANHATTAN,BUT HAVING LIVED ON MT SINAI HARBOR FOR 33 YEARS I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THE IMPLICATION. IN ANY CASE ,ZAGAT STATED THAT YOU SHOULD "Bring a camera both for the view and the fare..at La Plage".And that it was very expensive "but worth getting lost for".WHAT THEY MIGHT HAVE ADDED WAS THAT THE FOOD (IN THEIR OPINION ONLY) WAS WORTH PUTTING UP WITH SERVICE PEOPLE WHO WERE OUT TO IMPRESS YOU AND CRAMPED, OUTDATED BATHROOM FACILITIES .ALL IN ALL ,TRYING TO MAKE HEADS OR TAILS OUT OF ZAGATS IS OFTEN IMPOSSIBLE; THEY HEDGE with phrases like "some people say...,but.." .THIS LEADS YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE RESTAURANT AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND,PRECISELY WHAT YOU HOPED TO AVOID BY READING THE ARTICLE. HERE'S TO THE CONTINUED SUCCESS OF CH.COM...THERE ARE READERS HERE WHO ARE INSPIRED BY YOUR HONESTY ,PERCEPTION, COURAGE AND EXPERIENCE Sat Nov 24 08:58:35 -0800 2001 1538013 0 r eisman 15 1538948 Welcome the the chow fray, BUT WHY ARE YOU YELLING AT US? Messages written all in upper case are hard on the eyes, and on the internet are usually interpreted as being yelled as opposed to spoken. Please continue to voice your opinions and share your experiences, but would you mind unlocking your CAPS LOCK key on your keyboard? Sat Nov 24 11:41:18 -0800 2001 1538947 0 Deven Black 15 1538949 R, Thanks for the high marks for the team! We look forward to hearing from you in the future and welcome you to the table. (Though we tend to talk in upper and lower case most of the time.) Looking forward to other insights. Chow! Sat Nov 24 17:51:36 -0800 2001 1538947 2 The Chowhound Team 9 1538047 I need to correct a boo-boo. Red Sancerre is made from Pinot Noir, not Cabernet Franc as the subject line in much of this thread implies. Wed Oct 11 02:50:30 -0700 2000 1537980 0 Melanie Wong 1 1537968 how on earth do you bring yourself to drink oaked sauvignon blancs? Fri Oct 06 05:41:07 -0700 2000 1537958 0 howler 2 1537973 Hold my nose? I hear ya. My own tastes in Sauvignon Blanc lean increasingly toward the floral/grass and aggressively fruity style. So the fresher and younger the better, with no oak treatment to detract from those primary aromas and flavors. I love Sancerre. How about you? But the classic style from the Bordeaux region, as you know, is the Sauvignon Blanc and Semillon blend with a healthy slug of new oak for the top chateaus and built to age. These are monuments to the barrel maker when young, yet as they mature, it’s amazing how well the wood integrates. I think that the substance and waxiness of Semillon is complemented by wood. I’m actually more concerned by the increasing trend toward sweetness in NZ Sauvignon Blanc. A little residual sugar helps round out the laser-like drying acidity in the finish, but I suspect some of these wines have more than 1%. You think you know what a Marlborough SB should taste like, then new producers respond to the market demand and styles diverge. Tomorrow I’ll be practicing with Semillon vs. Sauvignon Blanc to focus in on the effects of blending, wood aging, regional styles, etc. I’m sure I’ll have more comments afterwards. Sat Oct 07 00:31:23 -0700 2000 1537968 0 Melanie Wong