Endangered and Extinct Foods

Any additions? Sightings?

ENDANGERED
Hash browns
Wild rice
Poached eggs
Pizza burgers
Broiled shad roe
Lobster thermidor
Cube steak
Cinnamon toast
Pudding in general
Liver and bacon

EXTINCT
Butterscotch walnut cookies
Butterscotch pudding (in fact, butterscotch in general)
Mock turtle soup
Pineapple upside down cake
Bismark Herring
Hasenpfeffer (what is it, anyway??)
Real egg creams (First test of a place that makes serious egg creams: they don't ask you "what flavor?")

[Soop]

I've eaten all the endangered ones not so long ago, apart from shad roe, and none of the extinct ones.

[xcptnl]

Reviving an old topic. If only this article was true:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi...

Here is the excerpt from the article:

After tracking a cult-like following to Bonomo's Turkish Taffy on the Internet, New York malpractice attorney Ken Wiesen, 46, purchased the trademark from Tootsie Roll three years ago. The chewy candy -- popular in the 1950s and '60s -- was acquired by Tootsie Roll in the early 1970s but was phased out in the early 1980s.

Wiesen expects to have the taffy sold in national chains by summer of 2004 and is working to recreate the original flavors.

Broiled shad roe: sighted at Philadelphia's Sansom St. Oyster House.

The joys of my kitchen include regular sightings of:
Butterscotch pudding and other puddings; especially warm homemade banana cream
Pineapple upside down cake
Cinnamon toast
and Liver and Onions (not usually bacon, actually never had it that way)
Of course, I don't put these in the same menu. Ugh.

And wonderfully, in downtown Berkeley, CA, I can have a egg cream whenever I wish.

My endangered nearing extinction list:
Deviled Eggs
Piccalilli (Pickled East Indian vegies served with Baked Beans)
Rarebit (Welsh or Tomato)
Idaho Sunrise (Baked Potato with Egg)
Stuffed Green Peppers

Tzi -- off to scour the web for Butterscotch Walnut cookie recipes

GREEN GODDESS SALAD DRESSING!!!!!!!!!

My mom used to cook lamb kidneys and rice for us a lot when we were kids. Now you have to special order kidneys and they're no longer cheap. No one eats them any more that I know of. (At least not here in the US.) Definitely endangered and - as a cheap source of protein to feed a family - extinct.

PS: I poach eggs very often but I don't know of too many other folks who do.

Just saw lamb kidneys and eggs on the breakfast menu of a Sudanese place here in DC. Think I'll try them...

poached eggs, hash browns and wild rice are all alive and well in my littoral. (I use wild rice with stroganoff) Brains & eggs used to be staples in creole housholds but I don;t think I've seen in in about ten years unless I make it myself. Liver and bacon is also still around.

The Jello-salad is roaring along well in Mississippi and Alabama.

I share teh wistful remarks on the crudites..thiose celery/green onion/canned ripe olives were always on the table when I was a kid

the jello salad is also alive and well in Utah, giving that state the highest per capita jello consumption in the US

Oh honey, it is alive and well in the south, too, where it is called, disgustingly enough, congealed salad. And it's frequently served with big blobs of mayonnaise.
I no longer live there but am kept up to date by relatives. They swear by something green with marshmallows. Oh my......

Jim,
I take issue with the inclusion of pineapple-upside-down cake. I personally make a lot of it. the recipe in the new (revised) joy of cooking is a good one.

As far as eating it out, there was an article in the NYT in the past couple of years about places in the city that served versions of pineapple-upside-down cake. And if you vacation in hawaii you will feel as if you've stepped into a 1970's dessert time warp, because every restaurant out there seems to serve it. must be all those pineapples they grow.

A miniature version of pineapple upside down cake is sold here (Thousand Oaks and Ventura, Southern California) at our farmer's market - one ring on top with one maraschino cherry.

Reread the list...in my world --
I can get poached eggs anywhere where I live, and they're always done perfectly. Shad roe, you may have a point. Cube steak I can buy at the store, nothing on the list is exotic or something I can't get and done pretty well. Think it might be a NYC thing.

You're OK on some -- hash browns are alive and well in the midwest. Liver, of any kind, including chick, is great on the list. Butterscotch SUNDAEs, not pudding is on extinct--who cares about the pudding...or the cookies. They're adding butterscotch to everything --every heard of a blondie brownie??

Hasenpfeffer is a rabbit stew --used to me made by my AustroHungarian grandpa; I don't think it's extinct.

How about endangered:
Sweetbreads!
Brains & eggs
Rutabaga anywhere but home at Thanksgiving
What ever happned to German potato salad (warm?)

And good riddance to endangered
Jello "salad" with mayo or Miracle whip. (I actually was at a luncheon that had lime jello with Corned BEEF in it....an outrage...from college....I'm still suffering.)
Piemento loaf on white bread --or in any manner.
Olive loaf---ditto
Sauerkraut from a can.

"Blondies" are to butterscotch as soft-serve ice cream is to frozen custard.

Frozen custard must be at least threatened, if not endangered, or even extinct.

Where can it be had in NY?

Frozen custard is flourishing in the Mid Atlantic and Midwest.

NY has never had a good frozen custard tradition...surely you don't mean to imply that and the absence of an American regional cuisine from the NY scene implies that it it is endangered or extinct!

>...surely you don't mean to imply that and the absence of an American regional cuisine from the NY scene implies that it it is endangered or extinct!

Surely not! Why, I myself was absent from the NY scene from birth until last week.

Sweetbreads- try Le Biarritz on 57th west of carnegie. I had them there grandmother style. Good too.

Just had a wonderful app at Copia in Napa - Crispy sweetbreads served on a bed of lovely sauteed wild mushroom... Also Scopazzi's in Boulder Creek CA (in the Santa Cruz Mountains not far from San Jose/Santa Cruz); 2 different sweetbread entrees on the menu. I've had them there several times - very tasty.

Hash browns are alive and well, but why does everyone serve them barely cooked? I expect them to be on the verge of burnt, yet the ones I get lately are more like boiled potatoes.

You have problems. Food can not be extinct and endangered just so ya no. Of corse you probley new that and you were just trying way to hard to be funny. so, fine, haha.

Put Egg Creams back on the endangered list. I've had regular sightings (because I don't actually like egg creams, but Jason does) of them at Frederick's in Great Neck on Long Island, NY. (On the corner of Bond St. & something, next to the Chase bank, one block from train station, ask anyone and they'll point you the way.)

I am not sure if we're just discussing restaurant foods that are lamentably extinct, or just extinct...as those that come to mind immediately are not missed.

But once upon a time, the fruit cup, or fruit "cocktail," was a standard app in many places. And was often Del Monte, heavy syrup and all, served with a staight face, somehow. I was too young to object.

Once upon a time you'd see Nesselrode whatevers on the dessert menu...pie or parfait...I ordered one once 30 years ago and am still not fully recovered, simply because I wasted a highly anticipated dessert order on awful chewy crap exuded from a tube, like Jujubees in a restaurant dessert. I was not a happy ten year old chowhound. Danger, Will Robinson.

I am still thinking I coulda at least ordered a coffee ice cream and been OK, what a waste. "Worst ordering mistake" might make an enlightening thread, btw. But you can't top ordering a Nesselrode anything for a loser order, unless you like tube food that even astronauts would reject. I am still smarting.

Oh, and you don't see coffee ice cream on many dessert menus anymore, when it was once commonplace, a standard. I think a really good coffee ice cream can be an excellent dessert, especially when the alternative is Nesselrode Rubber Insect Larva Death Chews that a desparate smallmouth bass wouldn't take as bait.

One old convention I do miss a bit is so-called "crudites" which was usually a bunch of raw celery and carrots and probably canned black olives, often delivered on ice, and usually free of charge, like the bread. Where did that go? I thought that was fun, and will often throw out something similar before an informal dinner in my own kitchen (yeah, somewhat expanded, and with real olives, but the same principle.) I have not been served free "crudites" in a long while, and fear they are extinct. I do get somebody stirring up olive oil and cheese for me to dip bread in, whatever that is...but I would rather have "crudites."

Great thread. Lets focus on restaurant food though. Nothing on Jeff's original list is not made in my kitchen, so we are talking restaurants, not home kitchens.

BTW, second all the motions on hash browns being a regional extinction. No prob here in the Midwest. And if you want poached eggs, no prob either, which I mention cuz of all the poached egg jones I have read. Really, what else would you order on your corned beef hash but poached? But uv kerss. No prob.

Poached eggs are a prob? Hard to imagine.

Damn you Bill. I laughed so I hard I spit coffee outta my nose. Not a real graceful move here at work.

The fruit cup thing: Nurse Ratchet in High Anxiety. "No fruit cup for you." Everytime I think of Harvey Kormann racing down the stairs (in those hysterical spats), in full anticipation of fruit cup, polishing his spoon, looking around gleefully at his fellow diners, and reaching into the emptiness - it just kills me. (almost as much as you do).

The nesselrode thing: believe it or not my dad loved the stuff - pudding, pie, you name it. He also liked mincemeat (shudder). We thought he'd taken leave of his senses. Anyhoo.. several years ago in Wisconsin I saw it on a menu and missing him, I thought it would bring back memories, I ordered a piece of nesselrode pie. What it almost brought back was the lovely supper I had had before the pie. This is a food that truly deserves to be extinct.

Thanks for the laugh. I'm no longer in pain now.

Forgot.

The crudite thing: As I'm sure you know, here in the midwest no fancy-schmancy french for us folks. We called them relish trays. You still used to get them at Golden Ox. Now closed. A moment of silence. It was a great old German institution. Mounds of meat and more meat. Something like 8 different forms of potatoes. When I was a kid eating there I used to like to combine a sweet pickle and a dill pickle in my mouth. Signs of early chowhoundiness.

Although I've never had a problem getting poached eggs, it does seem that traditional eggs benedict is becoming a thing of the past, at least here in the San Francisco area. Seems that every restaurant has a new variation (some of which are wonderful) but no one does the original anymore (english muffin, canadian bacon, poached egg and hollandaise).

I hope eggs benedict aren't extinct at Ovens of Brittany in Madison WI. I remember them as an almost secret, gentle little oasis of peace and safety and beauty and perfection for Sunday brunch while in grad school there.

I have to admit that I kinda like Nesselrode. What is the defining flavor? Rum and candied fruit?

That's it: rum and candied fruit. My mother used to make a nesselrode pie with a merengue crust during the holidays sometimes when I was a kid. (But probably hasn't made it for 20 years.) And yes, I liked it (her homemade--albeit vegetarian--mincemeat, too). But it's the only nesselrode anything I've ever had. Living on the two coasts, and no doubt being too young, I've certainly never seen it on a restaurant menu.

But hey, how about "spumoni" at Italian restaurants? Another well-deserved extinction, IMO.

I never had Nesselrode, but my grandma's homemade mincemeat pie rocks, too! It is vegetarian -- is there also mincemeat made out of real meat?

"Traditional" mincemeat might or might not have meat (beef), but was always made with plenty of beef suet, as is/was traditional plum pudding. My mom still makes mincemeat pies--she wouldn't have Thanksgiving without.

"is there also mincemeat made out of real meat?"

It's sometimes made with suet, similar to Christmas Pudding in Britain.

Btw, In response to Caitlin, I really like Spumoni. What's not to like?

- VF

Gee, maybe I never had the good spumoni, just like the previous posters who never had the good nesselrode pie...

I remember eating spumoni in the neighborhood Italian restaurants when I was young, and it was pretty uniformly delicious. These days, barely one try out of ten will get you anything edible.

The problem appears to be a subset of the problem with all ice cream. The handling of ice cream has degenerated greatly over the years. Part of the problem is the "frost free" refrigerator. The frost free effect is achieved by having a defrost cycle in the middle of the night. The symptoms in the ice cream are a loss of quantity and a pulling away from the side of the container.

Another part is that the ice cream box is set too warm in order to make things easy on the server. Ice cream needs to be -5 F at the WARMEST. At that temperature, it is like a rock, difficult to scoop. The servers cheat, and set the temperature higher.

Yet another problem is cost cutting in the area of transport. A truck capable of holding -5 F or better is a big initial investment, and requires more maintenance to keep it going. The temptation to cheat here is irresistable as well.

PLEASE, people...start new threads when you want to take a subject in a different direction. Don't just glom onto existing threads! Otherwise these threads get out of control, and are impossible for people to follow (the index starts looking like a spider web!)

Just leave a quick note in the reply, like "I'll reply in a new thread: look for the thread called XXX on the YYY board'

Many thanks fer yer cooperation

The Management

Back in the 70s, my husband was addicted to Louis Sherry spumoni, I think he ate at least a carton a week. Even Breyers was delicious back then, especially their Raspberry Swirl. Haagen Daz and all the others just don't compare, I guess they're TOO rich.

In the middle ages they made lots of dishes like mincemeat: diced or ground (actually, smashed in a mortar and pestle by the servants) meats, dried fruits, lots of spices, honey, and boiled together until almost unrecognizable. I think it helped for preserving leftovers without refrigeration, too. See an older Joy of Cooking for a typical recipe of a more recent vintage (1964, 1975).

I had one encounter with this pie, at a coffee shop in the W. 70s almost 30 yrs ago and was fascinated by its "adult" flavor. Don't think Ive seen it anywhere since. Since then I've found interesting recipes with rum and chestnut paste or candied chestnuts which interest me but the recipe on Arthur Schwartz's website, linked below, seems pretty mainstream.

Hope some chowhounds out there will take up the challenge of making this stuff and telling us about it!

Link: http://www.foodmaven.com/radiorecipes...

This recipe looks to be just about what my mom made, although she didn't use jarred "nesselrode fruits." Also, instead of a regular pie crust, she made a sweetened merengue shell. Her recipe was either from the classic NY Times Cookbook, or from that little binder of typed-up recipes she has, which means it came from who-knows-where. I'll have to aske her how she became acquainted with nesselrode pie.

About ten years ago, she did a riff on it with a mocha/Kahlua bavarian cream in a merengue shell. Yum.

I thought some of you would enjoy a further account of a Nesserode Experience. I am not deterred.

Link: http://www.well.com/user/vision/prous...

Jen. It makes sense: extinct food (and food memories)->nesselrode->Proust. Thanks.

Do you have the recipe for this? If so, would you please email to me to make, this sounds great. Thanks

ahhhh Nesselrode pie. I was a fiend for it as a child at Ratner's on the Lower East Side. If we were in town, I'd make sure to leave room for some for a slice (even in the face of those baskets of onion rolls). Eventually, they never seemed to have it in and then alas, Ratner's was no more. Let the weeping commence.

Anyone out there selling Nesselrode. Crosse & Blackwell does not stock.

Why is it nearly impossible to find pistachio ice cream with pistachios in it (besides the fact that they are expensive)? If you're lucky, they throw in a few marischino cherries instead.

What a pity, I love pistachio icecream and lucky for me (in N.E.) there are tons of homemade icecream places that make delicious pistachio icecream...my fav. is with homemade hot fudge, yum!!

Hash browns are common currency in most of the south (along with grits). Since this site is centered mostly on NYC, you might not know that. Home fries are just as big. So i guess they're endangered on a regional basis.

endangered- serving BBQ when the menu says BBQ. They mostly give you grilled or baked stuff, but nothing slow cooked over wood. A little BBQ sauce does not equal BBQ.

Extinct (?).

Grilled cheese. Gettin' close....

I've got a real live 1950s-1960s Midwestern recipe for Sloppy Joes that's very nice. Anyone want it? Just e-mail me.

About a year and a half ago, the Sherwood Inn, the nearest eatery to my house, had an endangered item as a special that for me was "new nostalgia". The item was Veal Oscar, and I enjoyed it heartily. They've never had it since. I encountered it one other place, again as a special, but it was poor.

brings to mind the veal prince orlaf episode of Mary Tyler Moore - was there really such a thing or the writers invention?

I had it last summer at Skippers in Greenport, Long island, I was so startled to see it on the menu I had to get it. It was great!

A moment of Silence please....

Bonomo Turkish Taffy

it's rumored that the Tootise roll company bought the
recipe but refuse to make it.

OH OH BONOMO TURKISH TAFFY IS BACK!

Funny, I just had some real and real greasy hash browns for breakfast this morning at my favorite breakfast place in Healdsburg (Flaky Cream Donuts). They were great.

The place I work here sells a lot of chocolate pudding. It's thick rich and homemade. We can't make it fast enough.

I only know what hasenfefer (sp ???) is from watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. Rabbit Stew of course.
Of course Bugs escaped the pot.

As far as hash browns go, I think they're only endangered/extinct out East. In the Midwest, for instance, hash browns run free. I'm going to Cleveland at the end of the month, and you can bet that my requirement for going out to eat will be whether or not hash browns are served (with an exemption granted to Lola, since the crab tater tots there make up for many things!). A lot of this seems regional, actually; I likewise plan on seeing ham salad, wild rice, cinammon toast, etc, in their natural habitat. Also, if I make it out to the Campus Diner in Oberlin, I'll probably see something that should be extinct: a classic layer sandwich. Their version is a triple decker of egg salad, ham salad (hey!), and cream cheese on white bread that has been cut into circles. Mayonnaise sauce is poured over the resulting cylinder with a maraschino cherry topper. Does anyone else have experience with this kind of thing? The first time I saw someone eating one, I was fascinated and repelled in equal measure. Research into my old Better Homes & Garden cookbook turned up a whole mess of recipes for such icebox sandwiches. I guess they were kind of a special occasion (bridge club, definitely!) snack. Definitely something good to bring to parties if you've got friends that like odd/tacky food.

Yeh, I think hash browns are a regional thing. In the Northwest they are extremely common. And even in the Midwest I tended to find more "home fries" or "country fries" than hash browns.

Not in Chicago. You can't walk around a corner without getting hit by hash browns.

That sandwich sounds almost vilely delicious. The cherry at the end reminded me of another endangered sandwich. When was the last time anyone had a Monte Cristo? (sprinkled with powdered sugar and with strawberry jam on the side) Where did this concoction come from and are they supposed to be griddled (like French toast) or fried? I've had them both ways though not for years.

I live in the midwest - Illinois/Iowa border - they still have those sammies on several menus around the area. There is a chain called Bennigans that serve them, but I have had them at local establishments as well. I indulged in one this past year-it was sinful & yes I dunked every bite into the jam-sweet n salty.
The ones I have had come out like french toast (which I adore anyway)

This was my favorite meal as a child. They are absolutely supposed to be sandwiches that are completely deep fried in batter, not just ham turkey and swiss slapped together between two slices of french toast. That's what most diners will serve you, probably because they are too lazy to make it the right way. The first time I had it the wrong way, I was sooooo disappointed.

Anyway, Bennigan's are okay, but the best I've had would have to be those at the Blue Bayou restaurant at Disneyland. They are fabulous. And also, they are best served with Knott's boysenberry preserves. That is all.

They do have to be deep fried, not the 'other way'-yep,
you betcha!

Thanks Tammy and Mateo. I only had them deep fried once, and it was best. Not sure whether I even like the things or not. Its sort of a morbid fascination, and a definite liking on some level. Anyway, I think they are extinct in California.

A monte cristo is also really good with a sweet hot mustard or Durkees sauce. Try it.

Where can I buy Durkees sauce?

I received a recipe on line for Monte Crisco Sandwiches but it was deleted before I copied it down. I have been unable to locate this recipe. If you or anyone has it, would you please e-mail it to me? [e-mail] Thank you very much....Peace

I bought a jar of Durkees Famous Sauce on or about July 15, 2001 at Wal-Mart. I noticed that the price was about $1.50 which was about 75cents lower than usual. I was thrilled, since the stuff has been a fav of mine since the 1950's.

Lo and Woe they have changed and RUINED the stuff. I noticed that it was now very thick, almost congealed and no longer pourable as it has always been. It tastes completely different...The junk tasted heavy and artificial, much different than the delicious original. WHY CANT THE FOOD BASTARDS LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE..OR AT LEAST KILL OFF THE ORIGINAL AND NOT TRY TO SCAM US ALL..!!!???

++sue++

Do you mean the hot sauce? Are you in New York? Then, there's hope! I've been buying "Frank's" hot sauce--which up until a few years ago was sold under the Durkee label ( please correct me if I'm wrong.) It's thicker--but the flavor is the same. Nice and tangy.

No not the hot sauce which is red and very good and I dont think was EVER the same as Franks Red Hot sauce.
I was talking about the Mayo-Mustard style sauce that is often mistakenly called DurkeeDressing or Durkees Dressing, but which is officially called "Durkee Famous sandwich & salad Sauce" comes in a 10oz glass jar with a turquoise/aqua colored lid.

Here's a number for the hot sauce 1-800-247-5251. Ask for customer service or the Spice-Advice line. I still see Durkee hot sauce in a few stores occasionally .Im in Houston Texas.
++sueV++

I am having trouble finding Durkee's Famous Sauce in my grocery stores here in Michigan. Years ago, I had to import it from Ill, but then Meijer's started carrying it, but now they do not. I did not even see it listed as a product on the Durkee's Web site. Please tell me they have not stopped making it. How can I order it somewhere? I got the copycat formula and will try that but would rather be able to buy it somewhare. Help. I have been using this product for 50 years and do not want to change.

Well, THIS is very interesting. Durkee's must have sold the rights to the famous "Famous Sauce."

It's still readily available and very popular in the U.S. South. There'd be a second civil war down here, I think, if it were ever discontinued. We Southern cooks just can't get by without our Durkee's.

Just got my jar of Durkee's from the fridge. On the label it says: Manufactured for: Specialty Brands, a Division of Burns Philp Food Inc.; Box 7004 San Francisco CA 94108

I am devastated!!!!!! I cannot find any Durkees Famous Sauce in Georgia.
HELP HELP

Hometown Favorites has it according to their product list. It's listed under Durkee's Famous Sandwich and Salad Sauce. Here's the link:

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

Can anyone help me? I have been trying to locate Durkee Famous Sauce or Sandwich & Salad It is a Tangy Mustard-Mayonaise Flavor. This was one of my Grandmother's favorites. After marrying my Husband I found out his mother also used this Famous Sauce in many of her salads. This was purchased in Mass. Now, having been married 39 yrs. now, living in Baltimore, Maryland this sauce cannot be found. Many of my recipes such as Deviled eggs, BLT's, Potato Salads, Cole Slaw were made with the Sauce mixed together with regular mayonaise. I will buy a case if available.
Please Help me locate this item. I understand that it may be Distributed by the Tone Brothers.

Sincerely.
Marion Rivard

I occasionally see it on shelves in Houston - Kroger Signature stores as I recall. It's been several months. Here's a mail order source if you want it bad enough.

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

Hello

Anyone wishing to order this Wonderful Durkee's Famous Sauce can. All you do is go onto the site www.netgrocer.com and they will send you as many bottles as you desire, you do not have to order a case. I put this order in on Saturday and it was delivered this day Tuesday. We will now enjoy our favorite secret recipes. It will be used in our Potato Salads mixed a little with reg. Mayo not alone. Also on lettuce with BLT's Deviled Eggs in combination with celery, onions etc.

I used to live in Anaconda Montana... and now my family lives in Arizona... we will go to Montana or have people that we know in Montana mail us jars of it..... We can't find it anywear either... Although you should be able to go to a local store and have them order it for you.

I too learned to like Durkee's, thanks to my husband. Live in Baltimore area and can't find it. We buy it when we go to the midwest, ie Illinois. Then suffer when we run out. Ran a search and found a recipe for a copcat that I haven't yet tried. Good luck.

Link: http://southernfood.about.com/library...

I really would like to know where to get this item, I live in Illinois and have not seen it for years!! EMERIL has a similar spread.....however I long to taste the durkees again!

You can get Durkey Famous Sauce at this link:

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

My grandmother used this sauce as well. She lived in Starkville, MS. If you have any luck finding it, let me know. Thanks

Does Durkee's still make PASTA SALAD SEASONING MIX?

What happened to it unable to find it in the store.

I live in the San Diego area and I can no longer find Durkee's sauce either. I have an empty bottle as proof and will continue looking for it.
I have adapted my potato salad to come near tasting like I used Durkee's Sauce but it just isn't the same!

I see you can get it on Amazon.com, but I can't find it in stores in Kansas either.

Information I got from Spice Advice was to check:
http://www.nicespices.com and
www.hometown favorites.com It appears that Durkee's famous sauce can be purchased from both places.

WRERE CAN I BUY DURKEE'S FAMOUS SAUSE IN ON THE EASTERN SHORE OF MARYLAND. WHAT IS THE DURKEE WEB SITE ADDRESS THANK YOU

has anyone found a source of Durkees Famous Sauce?

It's in most of the grocery stores in Des Moines.

Howdy!

I was just in Columbus, OH for a Baptism and had the best Chicken Salad. The Durkee sauce was the basis for the salad so I picked up three jars while I was there. I don't recall the store, but apparently it is pretty common in the Columbus area. I live in Seattle, and sadly, once these jars are gone, I will have to resort to a copycat recipe.

Good luck!

How do you make that salad? I bought a jar of the Durkees Sauce for old times sake a couple months ago but havent been inspired to use it.

Not so! I, too, live in Seattle and I buy Durkee's famous sauce at my neighborhood QFC grocery all the time. Look in the mustard aisle.

Is it true that Durkee Famous Sauce is no longer being made? Why? What can I buy to use in place of it? I can't get along without it!

Please tell Durkee that I hope that they will start manufacturing their Famous Sauce again soon!

Thank you.

Grace Worth

It's still manufactured. Try this link and look in the sauce aisle.

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

I live in the eastern panhandle of West Virginia & I can't find it anywhere. Anyone know where I can get it. Thanks.

You can get Durkee Famous Sandwich and Salad Sauce at the link below. The item number is hfsa119.

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com

I found a cheaper source for Durkee Famous Sandwich/salad Sauce. Do a search on Durkee at the link below and you'll find it.

Link: http://www.netgrocer.com

Anybody know where to find Durkees famous sauce in the Portland Oregon area?
I used to find it at Winco, but lately can't find it there.

Need some Durkees sauce today.
Where can I find it in Mesa, AZ?

I'm not so much interested in a cheaper source; I just want a source! I live on the Peninsula in Southeastern Virginia and my local stores no longer carry DURKEES FAMOUS SAUCE. If anyone knows of any place in Southeastern Virginia where I can purchase DFS I would be greatful. Thanks.

Don't necessarily want a cheaper price, just a place to
purchase it in the Riverside , CA area. Thanks

Where can I buy this in the Meadville, Pa.16635 area?
Or in Portland, Ct.06480? or in the Canfield, Ohio 44406 Area? Or can I buy a case from? I have 2 grandsons who REALLY like it on turkey sandwiches--I was their source and can't find it here in Meadville. We have used it after Thanksgiving on turkey sandwiches for more than 60 yrs....now these grandsons need it for their school lunches. Help!! Grama

i've never tried the stuff. what's the appeal?

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

Ah, you haven't had a turkey sandwich without it...

I have unable to find Durkees famous sauce.Can you tell me where I can find it.

You can find Durkee's Famous Sauce at Hometownfavorites.com. Just do a search on Durkee.

Here's the link:

Link: http://www.hometownfavorites.com

Does anyone know why this has become so hard to find? I live in CT and my family loves this - I grew up with it always in the fridge! I have stopped in every grocery store looking for it - found some this week - they had 8 jars on the shelf and I bought them all!

Yep, the "Can't Leave Well Enough Alone Folks" have ruined Durkee Famous Sauce. As stated in previous posts, they have made it darker, thicker and taken away the mellow, tangy flavor.

If you want to voice your displeasure here is the address of the folks that distribute this
"vile glutenous mess".

Tone Brothers
Steve Martin - President
2301 S.E. Tones Drive
Ankeny, Iowa 50021
Phone: [phone]

You can order Durkee Famous Sauce from www.hometownfavorites.com.

I have purchased Durkees Famous Dressing for years, but I can't find it at any markets in my area. I live in Oceanside California. I even purchased it last year, but I can't find it now. Can you advise me?George

Is Durkee Famous sandwich &salad sauce available in OH? I love it but can't find it. Can you help. Thank you. Cris

I have been buyin Durkees Famous Sauce primarily for use in potatoe salad for years. I buy new jars because there is nothing on the label about expiration date. Can anyone tell me how long it keeps in the refrigerator?

I live in St. Louis and all of us Durkees lovers are sick they have change the formula. It looks different, taste different and has little lumps floating in it.My 80 year old Mother and her bridge friends are really up in arms. It is a favorite with that generation. Here is a recipe I'm going to try to recreate it. found it on internet
DURKEE’S® SAUCE

1/2 C. cold water
4 T. cornstarch
1/2 C. plus 2 T. dark vinegar
2 T. salt
1/2 C. granulated sugar
1 egg
4 T. prepared mustard
4 T. margarine, cut into tiny bits

Put all the ingredients into a blender and blend until very smooth.

Put blender contents in top of double boiler and cook over gently boiling water, stirring often for 12 to 15 minutes, until thickened and smooth.

Return mixture to blender and blend at high speed for 30 seconds or until smooth.

Put sauce into a covered container and refrigerate for 24 hours before using.

This will keep refrigerated for up to 3 months.

You took the words right out of my mouth! Can't someone come up with the same thing under a different name? Pat

Is that cookbook the one that's in a pink plaid looseleaf binder? My mother, a famously awful cook, used that as her ONLY cooking info source. My sister still has it, for nostalgic purposes only I assure you. I remember looking at it as a child and being fascinated and repelled by the illustrations. One in particular stands out-a ham glazed with a combination of mayonnaise, mustard and melted Velveeta, scored to look like a pineapple, crowned with pineapple leaves and with sliced pimento-stuffed olives studded about the surface. That was much too intricate for my mom, but she did fix all sorts of stuff like Swiss steak (repulsive) that she garnered recipes for from BHG. When friends ask me how I came to be such a good cook, I tell them it was self-defense.

Yup, that's the one. There are some real lulus in that book, no doubt! And at this point, I would consider it to be an important cultural artifact along with the shelves full of Beef Board/Dairy Council/Jello Corp./ Home Canning Association/etc. pamphlets that my grandmother hoarded (god bless her!). Does anyone else collect these? They're usually utterly bizarre, and it's become kind of a compulsion of mine to seek them out.

I treasure a pamphlet of French recipes by Julia Child, inherited from my godmother, which was a giveaway in the sixties from Dove dishwashing liquid! From her as well I have a few of the older James Beard cookbooks from the sixties-through trial and error and simply following my gut I have discovered that as great as many, many of Beard's recipes are , in these older ones you can usually cut the fat (oil, butter, whatever) in half and still have a delicious result. In those days everything did truly swim in butter!

God I miss my old Betty Crocker Boys & Girls Cookbook. Is it out there somewhere?

Each evening I leave work and go home to another marathon of sorting and packing in preparation for my Giant move to Maine. Last night in a musty box I uncovered some ancient advertising cookbooks. The two best and I think oldest are Brer Rabbit's Molasses cookbook (great candy recipes) and one from Kelvinator Refrigerator (congealed salads). The funny thing is I have no idea where they came from. The ghosts of chowhounds past?

I had the Betty Crocker Boys & Girls cookbook -- no doubt it's still on my mother's cookbook shelf. Mine was a "new" edition, probably printed in the late 70s. I remember thinking how slick the photographs were, since Mom's cookbooks all had illustrations.

I also had a pamphlet-type book geared especially for kids, I think it was put out by Carnation. The best recipe was 1-2-3 fudge sauce (1 can evaporated milk, 2 cups sugar, 3 squares Baker's chocolate). My Mom (a very accomplished cook) still makes that sauce, to rave reviews.

I recently came across a copy of Betty Crocker's Cook Book for Boys and Girls at a stoop sale and quickly snatched it up. It was my cookbook of choice when I was young..I think I must have made nearly every recipe (much to my mother's dismay). My favorite was candle salad: Place a crips lettuce leaf on a plate. For the candle base, use one slice of pineapple. The candle is 1/2 banana set upright in center of pineapple slice. The flame is one maraschino cherry, fastened on top of banana with toothpick. Enjoy!

Wasn't there also a dab of mayo on top to simulate the melted wax? I can imagine what the Falwell folks would have to say about this dish!

This seems to be an old site but what the heck... I recently purchased 3 of the "Betty Crocker boys and girls cookbooks (1st edition) off of ebay....It took several auctions but mission accomplished. The 2 extra books went to girl friends of the same "era"...It was certainly an important book when coming of age and developing a love affair with cooking and responsibility!

I still have my Betty Crocker Boys and Girls Cookbook from 1957.

You might enjoy the "Gallery of Regrettable Food"; they have stuff along the lines of old BH&G recipes.

Link: http://www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/

Don't knock BHG cookbook. It was THE cookbook of its day. I still use 2 pie recipes from it..Lemon Chiffon and Pumpkin Chiffon. Those are 2 delicious pies back from the days when such things were ALWAYS made from scratch.

Thanks for the link, that site is hilarious!!

Loved that Lilek's link. Hilarious!

I used to use the 'ol BHG for it's fabulous inside covers: all the measurements and conversions and substitutions you ever need to know about - it is a great reference tool!

Also it's good for very basic recipes like...pancake batter, pound cakes...

I got a Better Homes and Gardens Cookbook in 1967. It had a sugar cookie recipe in it that you could also do as a drop cookie. It has fallen out of my cookbook (I used it a lot when my kids were growing up. Can you help?

If you go to BJ's Bargain Books, in the flea market on the Highlands Road in Franklin NC, you can buy all of these old cookbooks that you want for less than $1.00 each. I don't think BJ is on the net, though.

I picked up a reissue of the original Howard Johnson's Soda Fountain Manual (first published for internal use around 1918) for $1.00. Now I have to find some fountain owner willing to make all these phosphates and concoctions.

YES! YES! YES! My all-time favorite is Fun with Prunes. There's a site www.lileks.com that has several of these. Very funny.

When we lived in southeast Indiana (about 10 years ago), mock turtle soup was a staple at a certain time of the year (sorry, don't remember when) at festivals, big parties, church suppers, etc. People made it at home or communily (sp?), but I don't ever remember seeing it at restaurants, now that you mention it. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it being a seasonal food. None of the ingredients is particularly seasonal! It was yummy, though! I got the recipe from a native, but haven't ever made it because it has about a billion ingredients including boiled eggs that have to be ground up! Wonderful thread, Jim!!! Brought back alot of good memories!!! Thank you!

That sounds interesting. Would you mind posting the recipe?? Thanks. Emily

I can't remember the last time I saw ham salad -- either on a sandwich menu or at a deli. I have a fond memory of ham salad on trimmed white bread, served on a square of waxed paper, at Chock Full 'o Nuts. I make ham salad at home, but it's just not the same...

In Richmond VA at Ukrops supermarket deli, they have the best ham salad. Like you said perfect on good white bread! I can't make it as well as they do!! Sorry for ya'll out of the VA area!!

Endangered: tapioca pudding

Sighting: butterscotch topping at Serendipity in Manhattan. I didn't try it (couldn't resist an MMMM sundae), but I was stunned to see it there.

Cinnamon toast can be had at Hi-Life Bar and Grill on Amsterdam in the 80s, at Brunch on Saturdays and Sundays

my nomination for endangered is crab salad.

My earliest "gourmet food" love was a mayonnaise-y version of this, with hardboiled eggs and big pieces of crab, at Marzetti's in Columbus and at the Brown Palace in Denver. Heaven.

And what about Beef Stroganoff?
I remember it served over wild rice for a combo hit.

Butterscotch is still out there - maybe mostly at home or out in cream pie country, like the midwest -why not go to the grocery store, get a pack of pudding mix and mix it up? Or make it from scratch - Elizabeth Schneider Colchie's "Better than Storebought" has a good simple recipe, and I bet Richard Sax's "Great Home Desserts" does too. Supermarket pack puddings are mostly pretty dreadful.

Maybe bread pudding and creme brulee are seen in upscale restaurants, and the more homely varieties not is because the former can be found in european cuisines, are probably taught in culinary academies and can be fancied up whereas the simpler homestyle puddings (which can be just as delicious when made from good ingredients) fly below the radar of most chefs.

My Mom makes beef terrapin, which she serves over rice and I guess equates to mock turtle soup - but I havent made it in 20 yrs and my kids dont know it so perhaps it is effectively extinct in my family too - like those languages where the last native speakers don't teach their kids.

I have made the Richard Sax butterscotch pudding, and though it was a very good pudding per se, the outcome was not butterscotch-y enough for my taste. I greatly upped and improved the butterscotchiness flavor by (I kid you not), Butterscotch Schnappes. I bought a bottle quite cheaply just for my pudding cravings and found it also to be REALLY good for a twist on classic creme brulee.

What happened to sole veronique? Gone. I looked it up in the new edition of "Joy of Cooking" and it's not there. It's yummy..full of butter, cream and fresh green grapes. Then I dug out my old copy (probably 20 years old) and there it was. And you never see grenadine of beef on menus any more and it used to be practically ubiquitous. The saddest thing is the end of butterscotch toosie roll lollypops, which I haven't seen since I was a kid (although I always look for them). Most people I know deny they ever existed but they're wrong. And I never see egg foo yung on menus anymore, probably because it was so awful.

The tiny little lollipops that restaurants have by the cash register instead of mints...the ones that you can buy in big bags at Wal Mart for almost nothing...they still have butterscotch.

And yes, butterscotch still lives here in pie country, but not as prevalent as coconut or banana or chocolate or best of all, Lemon.

Those tiny little lollipops are called Dum Dums. And I love them, but I'm sure my love is somewhat biased, since Halloween in New England and Dum Dums are intrinsically linked in my mind.

Of all the typical Halloween candy. that was my favorite. My brothers and I used to save them until last, and we would trade for our favorite flavors.

Arent dum dums what Kojak used to suck on?

I like the little guys too, but I had some as recently as two years ago, so I am not sure if they are extinct.

They're definitely NOT extinct, at least not in the NYC area. Just about any grocery store has them by the bag.

I didn't say they were extinct - someone was missing butterscotch Tootsie Pops and I offered the butterscotch dum dums as a substitute but blanked on their name. (that's what I get for posting between classes of 6th graders)

I saw them in the Oriental Trading catalog just last night. That's a catalog I am plagued with weekly (if not more)in my school mailbox.

I love the Oriental Trading catalog! I've only received it once, about two years ago, but I still have it, just waiting for that occasion when I have reason to buy a huge tub of fish-shaped erasers or a set of straws with paper palm trees and monkeys attached...

planing on having a luau for a 16th birthday party on may 19th 2001 and in need of luau decorations. Could you get me out a book a.s.a.p. and can you garentee the order to be here before the 19th? If I can fax to you to make sure of the delivery, I can do that. Get back to me as soon as can. Thanks
kim

Kojak used to suck on tootsie pops, I believe.

Dum Dums still exist. I had them as recently as last October.

- VF

My wife pulled some out of her purse this past weekend!

You can still get them. I think you have to go to candy stores that sell candy in bulk (by weight, by the scoop). There are several great sources for old time candy on the net too.

Sole veronique, I haven't seen in years. But if you have a spare $800 lying around, the fall menu at Ducasse includes a stupendously good grenadin of veal.

Oh come on. Egg Foo Young is the epitome of classic amercianized gloppy cantonese food. If you grew up eating is like comfort food almost. Nothing beats it in the take out or delivery chinese food arena for satisfying that late night or rainy day chinese food craving.

My first experince of eating Egg Foo Young was at the King Yum polynesian restaurant (next to the Hillcrest Jewish Center... what a trip!) on Union Turnpike about ten thousand years ago. I think I was about 6 years old and out with my grandparents who lived in Hollis Hills at the time (and incidentally, Hollis Hills is a really cool rejuvenated neighborhood now with lots of nice places to eat... I think King Yum might even still be around and I'm tempted to go house hunting there). Man that was a great time and a great neighborhood back then. Come to think of it, King Yum was probably my first exposure to american chinese.

Shrimp Egg Foo Young can be a great dish if prepared properly, with the sauce on the side. Its hideous if drenched in the gravy, but with just a tiny bit on it and with crispy edges to the omelets its outta this world, especially if its got nice big shrimps in it.

Egg Foo Yung is one of my guilty pleasures.

I mentioned it jokingly and with nostalgia but apparently King Yum is the oldest operating chinese restaurant in Queens. It was opened in 1953! You know, if this is true, this is probably the restaurant which established the mythos that you can always find good chinese food in Jewish neighborhoods.

Apparently, the place is -known- for its egg foo young and typical cantonese stuff...

Okay.. now I -gotta- go back there.

http://queenstribune.com/dining/html/rest/king_yum.html

http://www.queenscourier.com/dining/1...

Sounds like a potential chowhound mission to me.

Eggs Foo Yung might be the Americanised name for the Americanised version, but Fu Yeung Dahn is a classic. My mother-in-law always does this, but without the sauce. I have read that one uses only the whites of the eggs to make it "properly". The name refers to the Fu Yeung, or Hibiscus flower. I've never personally seen yello/white hibiscus, but I guess they grow somewhere in China.

Here's another vote for the merits of egg foo yung. It's a classic. I grew up in Chicago eating it, and i still ove it today. What awful sauce are y'all referring to, i always loved the gravy! Not too far removed from the gravy for mashed taters, really. It is more difficult to find here in Tampa than it is in Chicago.
anyway, i second the notion: don't dis it!
Our so-called Americanized food is often just as good as the cuisine it apes (just in an American way), and are the usually the product of immigrants in America, not some American trying to corrupt foreign cuisines.

The first time I had egg foo young was at Kan's now defunct, I believe)in Chinatown, S.F. Delicious. I also like those egg things wrapped with a strip of nori served in Japanese sushi restaurants. Can't remember what they're called.

It's called tomago and I love it too.

Hey Jason,

King Yum is still there...and I believe they have a karaoke night...have never eaten there though...

Used to go to Peking House (further down Union Tpke, across from where the theater used to be) which used to be good and now sucks...

So what's in Hollis Hills...

Always looking for new Queens haunts...

I cant vouch for King Yum's quality now but I am definitely going to try to get there soon. Yes, I remember Peking House, it -was- a good restaurant probably 15 years ago, which was the last time I ate there (and king yum as well). Sad to hear that it has declined.

Jason

Buttershots (TM) Butterscotch schnapps is wonderful. I love it over vanilla icecream.

Where did you buy butterscotch schnappes from? I want some!

Where I live in Cleveland, flavored schnappes' are ubiquitous - liquor stores, grocery stores, etc. Ask around. I personally think it is too sweet to drink but I find it useful in baking.

I have had shad roe, I think broiled but not sure, twice at Prune on 1st and 1st in Manhattan. Pretty disappointing after reading about a lot about shad roe Up in the Old Hotel and other accounts of 1940s and 1950s life. There is also a Shad festival every spring in Lambertville, NJ, where it seems like everything shad can be had...

Cinnamon toast can be had, dripping with butter, at Naples Pizza in New Haven, Ct. It might kill you, but its good.

Hey, Naples Pizza, that was the New Haven breakfast destination I was trying to remember a couple of weeks ago. Cinnamon toast! And my husband thought it was the best pizza nr the Yale campus. No comparison to the wooster sq. pizzerias, though.

I agree that it is regional. Hashbrowns, cube steak, poached eggs and butterscotch pudding are alive and well in Oklahoma. Liver & onions took a beating from the cholesterol people, but deep fried chicken livers are still on buffets and grocery hot takeout (had some just yesterday). Pineapple upside-down cake is a standard at covered dish dinners, (which is what we have instead of a wealth of restaurants).

The other items...well, I don't think we ever had them in the first place. Cinnamon toast at home, certainly, but I never saw it on a menu in my life.

Do they still have fried livers or gizzards available at KFC where you are? I saw these in a KFC in Denver several years ago. This could be comparable to McD's carrying lobster rolls in Maine in the summer. But, to be more specifically regional, in Denver they also eat Rocky Mountain oysters, which are unlikely to be found at KFC.

Yes, they have deep fried chicken livers and gizzards at KFC here in OK and also at regular restaurants.

As for Mountain Oysters, We sometimes call them that, or Prairie Oysters, but more often just calf fries, to distinguish from turkey fries and lamb fries. There are restaurants here that serve them, but they are kind of a seasonal delicacy.

Betty

Egg Cream:

Fredericks in great neck. The place should be declared a national monument.

Jason

An excellent butterscotch pudding can be found at John Harvards Brewhouse. Though it is a chain, surprisingly it is good food, decent beer and good old New England butterscotch pudding. Creamy, full mouthfeel and rich taste, not fake or wimpy, but BUTTERSCOTCH. John Harvards is a great stop on I-84 in Manchester CT (Exit 62-61 I think) 2nd one after Vernon, also can be found on Long Island, Lake Grove. See http://www.johnharvards.com/ for other locations and info, but beware(!) not all of them serve it. More butterscotch pudding can be found at Sweet Melissa's in Brooklyn. I am a big fan of the sweets there, worth the money (especially the goat cheese cheesecake--sorry I digress), and though the pudding has a wonderful mouthfeel, the butterscotch taste doesnt quite measure up to John Harvard. I was raised on butterscotch and chocolate pudding...a New England staple (at least it was at my house-ha).

Does anybody remember Clove Life Savers? They were very popular during my high school days, as it was widely believed that they would hide the scent of beer on your breath when you were out drinking beer.

Another old favorite that is no longer around is Blackjack Chewing Gum.

Dennis

You can order Black jack gum at
http://www.hometownfavorites.com/shop...

It's Christmas Eve. Thanks to your posting it settled a bet that there were clove-flavoured Life Savers. Thanks. And Merry Christmas.

Clove life savers, Sugar Daddy on a stick, Bonomo turkish taffy (vanilla, chocolate,strawberry,banana). Put 'em in a freezer.
Broadway rolls (strawberry like twilzer type). Mike & Ike (still around?). candy dots on wax paper. full size Drakes Ring Dings. Flipping the card from it in the school cafeteria. Lic-a-maid. Tiny chicklets. working 1 cent gum machines in the subways. BMT subway cars with bare light bulbs, staggered seating made with cane & wicker, paddle ceiling fans. ride the subway for 15 cents. flipping baseball cards.
calling match- un-match. 2 out of 3 flips.

I can still get a few of these things in the south. Let me know if ya want um??? I will be glad to send. The candy dots on wax are around on occasions. The bars you put in the freezer??? We have them as Charleston Chews? Is it the same or do you not have Charleston Chews? Also still have the Mike and Ikes...In all kinds of flavors! What I'm wanting are the clove Lifesavers. They may be gone forever. But I know on certain occasions here we can get the teaberry gum and the clove gum. Was wondering if they ever popped up like an aniversery thing? Anybody wants any of these I mentioned? Will be glad to ship! Somebody that's seen the clove saver??? Plese let me know. Thanks

BlackJack gum is still available here in the Midwest. We get it at Dillons/Kroger, along with Pepsin and another. Ask your grocer to search for it. Wish Clove Lifesavers were as easy to find. sigh, hate beer, love those Cloves.

Ok, now I feel stupid! The other gum is Clove gum. Just went and checked, they sell all three in a display of just those. I am using the gums to quit smoking. That and hard candy I make from clove oil. Seems to be working. Keep looking, the gums are out there.

try here if you can't find it at the grocer's

Link: http://www.candydirect.com/gums/Nosta...

CORNED-BEEF HASH:

I've been meaning to tell you, Jimd I was sure someone had already broken it to you (maybe they have): go to Leshko's. The "new" Leshko's at 7th street and Avenue A serves the most incredible-looking hash browns: stringy, juicy, and although I haven't yet had them, I've walked by with my dog and, just being nosy, asked a couple of people about the hash browns they were eating, and they said they were the best they'd ever had and probably the best thing on the menu. This stuff is definitely not out of a can.

If the chef isn't making them on the day you go, be sure and make a stink and threaten to never go back there.

Pizza burgers can be had by asking nicely at most diners in S. Shore LI, no bribes necessary.
Puddings are to be had there as well, although nothing swell like a proper bread pudding, which seems to have retreated to its original habitats in Ireland and the UK.
You might be able to turn up a proper egg cream at Itgen's in Valley Stream.

I haven't seen a beef wellington in a long time, or anything en croute, fish , game, or kidney pies.
Hard-sugar candy apples haven't been seen by me in at least 20 years.
Can't find a decent Lo Po Ben (type of Chinese pastry) either. Last one I had was about 10 years ago.

Balducci's has a Beef Wellington in their catalogue. We have served it to guests at the last two Christmases, and really love it.

Hash browns you can buy frozen at the supermarket. There is also a dehydrated product that has to be rehydrated before frying. Most of the breakfast places here in the San Joaquin Valley serve them. I hate them, much prefer home fries or best of all good O'Briens.

Hard-shelled, red candy apples are still found, while it lasts, at the candy stand (name escapes me at the moment) at the entrance of the Coney Island subway station.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I can't wait to share this little piece of nostalgia with my daughter.

The subway stop, the terminus for those lines, is Stillwell Avenue...

Go across to Nathan's for lunch first then have the candy!

Now you're talking...

Thanks for the tip, but which subway station? Does it also have candy marshmallows?

Decades ago, a little candy stand on the boardwalk at Brighton Beach dipped two impaled marshmallows into the hard, red, candy et voila, candy marshmallows. I've never seen them anywhere else.

I assume we're talking about the huge B/D/F/N/R station on Surf Avenue (end of the line). There's an ancient candy/ice cream/soda shoppe as you exit onto the street that definitely sells candy apples. I don't know about red candy marshmallows, but most of the candy kitchens out there sell skewers of marshmallows that have been dipped in chocolate and/or caramel and rolled in crushed nuts. Might be worth asking if they could throw a few into the red stuff for you next time you're out there. And if you do go on a mallow hunt, you absolutely MUST make a pit stop at the El Dorado bumper cars (also on Surf Ave.) if they haven't closed for the season! Your inner child will thank me, though your back might not agree...

Clove flavored Lifsavers? Can they be gotten? Lollipops with Clove flavor?
Thank you.
Marjorie Slater

[beachmouse]

The bread pudding is alive and well in a good amount of the American South. You can even get grocery store versions.

It's probably been 15 years since anyone told me they wouldn't do poached eggs-I usually get them this way, even though it's never listed on the menu. Real shredded hash browns I get at Denny's or the Waffle House when I'm down south.

There's a good recipe for butterscotch pudding in Square Meals, by the Sterns. But I haven't seen it in a restaurant for 15 years, and that was a sleazy diner.

I had this same discussion with my daughter the other day--someone at the restaurant where she works mentioned Chicken Divan, and I had to remember to tell her what it was. I explained to her that when styles change in cooking, for no reason some of the good stuff goes out with the bad. But some of that stuff, good riddance! I remember when I was growing up, we might have a casserole every day of the week. My mother's in her eighties now, and still doesn't put seasoning in anything.

Here's something I never see anymore: chicken Cordon Bleu. Not that it was ever a great dish in a restaurant, but you could always count on it being edible, even if you didn't trust the kitchen to cook fish or beef properly.

Nothing on your endangered list strikes me as being any rarer now than it was, say, in the 70s. Except cube steak, perhaps.

How about STRAWBERRY MILK? And Snak Paks...I guess they're still around, but they don't seem to market them like they used to. And Pecan Sandies. Carob Bean ice cream in a mainstream store (i.e. in the top five list with Vanilla and Chocolate like in its heyday). DynaMints (guess Tic Tacs won THAT battle). Moldable shapes on the McDonald's drink lids. King Vitamin cereal. COFFEE IN ENGLISH.

By the way, what's the deal on "egg cream"? You've mentioned it so many times, that I've decided it is either a local (NYC) name for something else (eggnog? milkshake? malt?) or that I am simply too young (about 40). I 'm guessing it is something from one of those "soda jerk" shops of the 50s, but I've never actually seen the term outside of this board (and a quick search on the web for a definition). So if they're extinct, it musta happened before my time.

I take that back -- I did get something in a can by that name a few years back. Seemed to be roughly root beer and milk. I doubt this is reflective of the "real" ones, but that particular incarnation was foul to say the least.

Jim

PS: Butterscotch is alive and well in Vancouver!! I think it's due to the "maple syrup" influence.

I think it's a local thing.

Man, I remember the egg creams I used to get at Louie's Candy store on Henry Street in Brooklyn, NY.

They were heaven sent. Unfortunately, real egg creams are a bit hard to come by out in my area (Philly/Princeton). There's a semi-serious Jewish Deli
on Route 1 in Princeton, but they charge an outrageous amount fro what is nothing more than milk, Seltzer and Foxe's U-Bet Chocolate Syrup. They do this to cater to the tragically hip yuppies in Princeton in search of ?ethnic Flavor? (which is why you can buy Foxe's at Restoration Hardware).

Can you still get Manhattan Special Espresso Soda in NY?

You can get Manhattan Special at virtually any Italian deli in NY and NJ. I buy at least two large bottles a month.

Jason

I went to the Festival Of Lights in Trenton yesterday, and one vendor was selling Manhattan Special.

Manhattan Special can also be found at Thrifty Beverage on Court St in Brooklyn. As well as many excellent beers. 2 for 1 stop.

[jchamberlain]

King Vitamin cereal, hmmmm. The poor mans Captian Crunch. My mom would buy that because it had vitamin in the name. Oddly enough here in Maryland one of the chain grocery store named "Food Lion" sells it. I bought a box and I was dissapointed by the tast.

Apparently, I'm living in a game reserve of sorts for endangered foods (MN). Vast herds of wild rice, hashbrowns, poached eggs and liver roaming free. Hasenpfeffer is braised hare, traditionally, although rabbit is a viable substitute. I'm the sous chef in a German restaurant; we're thinking about running it as a special this winter.

Gregory White writes: "Apparently, I'm living in a game reserve of sorts for endangered foods (MN). Vast herds of wild rice, hashbrowns, poached eggs and liver roaming free."

Well, being in Minnesota, you're at the heart of wild rice country. Wild rice is really wehani, amember of the grass family, and traditionally is harvested by Native Americans in canoes. As far as I know, you can still get wehani at Whole Foods, and Lundberg in California makes several wild-rice blends; I actually ordered it several years back from a reservation in Minnesota. Or are you specifically looking for these things in restaurants? (Sounds like you're looking for love in all the wrong places.)

I bet you have huge herds of butterscotch roaming there as well; am I incorrect, or doesn't Callard & Bowser still make their famous butterscotch candies? What exactly are you looking for, Jim? Butterscotch cream pie? Has Nestle discontinued their butterscotch morsels? (If so, I missed that one.) And as for butterscotch pudding, I haven't really looked lately for Kozy Shack buttescotch pudding, but I know Imagine Foods makes a vegan (dairy-free) pudding in several flavors including butterscotch.Little Snak-pak containers, perfect for a lunchbox treat.

"I'm the sous chef in a German restaurant..."

Tell me, do you play ABBA on the sound system? I went to a German restaurant (called Hallo Berlin) in Hell's Kitchen last spring, and they played nothing but back-to-back ABBA in all kinds of languages.

No ABBA, just oompah music and German classical. Even though it's better than ABBA, it still gets to our front staff after a while. And, yes, MN and WI are wild rice country. The traditional harvest method is to go out in a canoe, bend the grass over it and thresh the grain into the bottom of the canoe. It's kind of funny to see it referred to on a menu as "wehani wild rice". Sort of along the same lines as "mesclun mix" in it's redundancy.

Nestle's still makes butterscotch chips, with which I make MEAN banana/butterscotch chip muffins whenever I've got overripe bananas lying on the counter.

As for Beef Wellington, although Ruth Reichl declared it "always a mistake," I had it not terribly long ago at Chez Suzette (9th Ave. bet. 46th and 47th), and it was quite delicious. I've made it at home, spreading duxelles and foie gras mousse around a tenderloin, sealing that in puff pastry, and baking with a meat thermometer until just rare. After a 10 minute rest, I think it's pretty great. It was THE way to impress your friends in the Sixties, because it's a bit tricky to pull off every time. My mother was good at it, but even she reverted instead to marinating a tenderloin in good port overnight, which she does to this day, after one Wellington overcooked for no apparent reason.

I had pineapple upside-down cake about a year and a half ago, at Across the Street (across from Eli Zabar's Vinegar Factory), but that restaurant is long gone now. It's a wonderful dessert, and I'll bet it will make a comeback, especially given the sudden renewed popularity of the dish's great grandmother, Tarte Tatin, which employs more than a few of the same principles.

I've mentioned them before, months ago, but still stuffed jalapeno "poppers" are damned difficult to find. The best I've found are at Alamo (East 48th St., near Second Ave.), where they're stuffed with Muenster cheese and individually hand fried (they're held by the stem and lowered by hand into boiling oil). Everywhere else I've found them (about two places) uses the frozen store-bought kind, which means those lily-livered jalapenos with no heat, and flabby cream cheese or gluey cheddar. Any other sightings?

Jalapeno poppers are easy to find at TGIF's. At least the one in Holmdel, New Jersey!

Hey Dave,

That is hilarious. Would you mind posting under your original string about what you actually DID end up having at TGIF? After the advice that you recieved from all of us, I'm sure that some are morbidly curious...kind of like watching a chowhound car accident, we don't want to know, but can't look away.

Yoroshiku,
Andy

At the point when I put the first bite of food into my mouth at TGIF's, I had not eaten in almost 24 hours. I was very, very hungry.

As expected, the menu was huge, with many "ethnic" foods featured. I decided to get the potstickers, a small salad, and a "turkey Reuben."

The potstickers were almost credible; the skins, presumably thawed, had the right amount of chewiness. The filling was mystery meat, and inoffensive. The only problem was that the filling was outrageously salty.

I ordered the sandwich out of sheer curiosity. What would it be like to have a Reuben without corned beef or pastrami, without Swiss cheese, and without sauerkraut?

Instead it was turkey (turkey roll?) with jack cheese and cole slaw on (wonder of wonders) rye bread.

That said, I was impressed with many elements of TGIF's, especially the service. I was at a table for 24, not in a private room, and our primary server was named Aja (yes, named after the Steely Dan song). She handled our table with grace and aplomb; everyone there tried their best, and allowed our party to shift around without any complaints.

Why was I in Holmdel? To see Brian Wilson perform Pet Sounds (and other compositions of his) in its entirety, along with a symphony orchestra and a fantastic band. Some of our group came from as far away as South Africa and England to see this concert. On this particular night, it was more important to go to a restaurant that could serve 24 of us in stride at 4:30 p.m. (and let us linger for 2-1/2 hours) then it was to have great food.

Dave,

It sounds like you had a fantastic evening...and that is great!

Andy

its terrible how ethic food gets marginalized when it hits the main stream. Bagels, for example, used to be all handmade and were 1/2 of size of most of the bagels available today which are some sort of bagel/cake/bread concoction. Same with cream cheese. American food manufacturers have been buying up small quality regional brands and making them cheaper. Its an evil thing.

In Los Angeles, you can get jalapeno poppers at Jack in the Box. And eat way too many of them without even leaving your car.

Nu, so what kind of grouch could object to ABBA? It's like objecting to butterscotch pudding...............

Mama mia, here I go again...
Ed, I totally agree. From a commercial standpoint, those Swedish gals/guys make the record retailer that I work for A LOT of money...year in and year out. And, heck, they can still get my toes a'tapping (yeah, ABBA is a one of my guilty pleasures)!

Well, I am hoping that this message will get posted to other search engines.

Sad to say, Callard and Bowser does NOT make their butterscotch toffees anymore. I called today (1/13/04) and was informed by one of Kraft Foods Customer reps that the sales of the butterscotch and other toffee was not justified to keep in in the markets. If you would like to bring the old butterscotch squares back, call 800 678 4246, provide them with your first and last name, and tell then you WANT YOUR CALLARD AND BOWSERS BUTTERSCOTCH BARS BACK!

Liver running free. You kill me.

Jim,

I think many of these items on your endangered list are alive & well in huge hunks of the country:

Hash browns -- Aren't these available in any Denny's (or other chain coffee shop) in the country? Aren't they popular all over California, to name just one populous state)?

Wild rice -- I just saw these in buffets in Las Vegas. Definitely at the Paris.

Poached eggs -- I don't eat breakfast much, but it's rare to be refused poached eggs when offered eggs "any style." When I don't eat an omelette, this is usually how I order them.
Liver and bacon -- this is available all over the west and midwest as a dinner special (usually with a choice of onions or bacon). Almost always in places that offer full dinners. And I see it often in diners in Manhattan -- most recently at the place on 69th and Broadway.


EXTINCT

Butterscotch pudding (in fact, butterscotch in general)
Offhand, I can't ever remember this being offered in
any restaurant, anywhere. I sure hope that Jello-O
hasn't stopped making this. Say it isn't so.

Bismark Herring -- Really? Have to admit I haven't seen this in a while, but can it really be extinct?

Real egg creams (First test of a place that makes serious egg creams: they don't ask you "what flavor?") -- Do you mean "real" or "good?"

Cinnamon toast I eat at home. Ditto liver and bacon (don't forget the grilled onions). I also see this on several menus (no bacon) in both L.A. & S.F. Same holds true for puddings: bread pudding & creme brulee. Poached eggs used to be served on hash for brunch at a rest. in D.C. Didn't know that butterscotch pudding was gone. Sorry to hear it. Used to be one of my favorites as a child. The lobster you get in Calif. you wouldn't eat..thermidor or otherwise.

Kit, hey, I wasn't saying that some cosmic force was keeping people from adding cinnamon and sugar to toast! I'm talking about restaurant versions of these things.

Thanks, everyone, for all the replies. I'll be away from the boards for a day or two, but will respond later. I don't spend much time in Denny's or MN, but I want to go now (to MN, not Denny's!)

Also, while subtractions from my list are welcome (both from an organizational and from a chowhound point of view), I'm wondering if more people have nominations of things they can't find anymore. I think it'd be cool to work up a master list, which I can cull into a special report. And it's great to have this cross-country feedback. I think if all our resident chowhounds sign off on the non-existence of a given food, it's a good bet it can't be found (note that "endangered" foods can still be found...but just much less prevalent and/or much less delicious than in the past)

ciao

A few additions:

Lobster Newburg
Snowballs (ice cream ball covered in coconut)
Euphraties crackers in bread baskets
Pea soup served with sherry on the side
crustless sandwiches (every bread has to have bite now)
Scalloped potatoes
Baked stuffed tomatoes (used to be a country club classic)
Real chicken kiev (not the frz. kind)
Duck a la orange
junket
rumaki
And oh God, the one I miss the most, cho-cho at Trader Vics - marinated beef you broiled over coals yourself. They served it here in Chicago, if you asked nicely (it was off the menu for years), but now they won't do it anymore citing fire hazard. I'd gladly go up in flames for this little dish. Sigh.

You can get tasty little sandwiches with the crusts removed at the Silver Tips tea shop in Tarrytown. I had one that involved an olive tapenade and cream cheese and was quite good in a 1950s ladies luncheon sort of way.

Silver Tips, by the way, has an amazing tea list and is worth visiting for the tea alone.

The woman who owns it is from India, so the samosas are worth eating too.

- VF

The chicken kiev at Firebird in NYC is probably the best example of it that I've ever seen. Its tender and utterly overflowing with the butter sauce.

Junket is available from the Vermont Country Store. I've never actually seen or tasted any, though, and never knew anyone under 50 who has.

I've always loved Junket. It is special at least in part because it requires continuous stirring, so I never got it that often as a kid. The combination of tart and sweet is unusual and special. It is excellent to use as a background for appreciating subtle variations between different recipes for delicately flavoured whipped cream.

BTW, I am not an exception to your rule, I'm 53.

I recall my grandmother making a pudding-like dessert, very, very delicate, which she called blanc mange. No gelatin was used; the thickening agent was made of some kind of seaweed found on the coast of Maine. I've tried to find recipes using seaweed, but everything I've seen uses sheets of gelatin. Is this an extinct dish?

That seaweed you're referring to is also known as carrageenan, which many have seen listed as an ingredient in all sorts of foods. I believe it is originally from the coast of Scotland.

For those interested in carrageenan:

Link: http://www.howstuffworks.com/question...

Bilmo, Do you know if the type of seaweed is called Irish Moss? Somehow that sticks in my mind. p.

Yes, I believe that's the same thing. I'm not sure, but I think agar-agar is also the same. At least, it's also derived from seaweed.

Agar agar! I know that stuff. If you ever come across a recipe for the real thing, please post! I'd love to try making it. I'm sure I could still find Irish Moss. I remember exactly what it looks like. Thanks a lot. pat

Pat - LOL - I grew Scotch moss in my yard!

Blancmange was (is?) a popular dessert in the UK as well. It was available as a powdered dessert mix (like Jell-o pudding) made by the Birds company and imported here. My mother used to use it as a layer in a British trifle. It seemed to disappear from specialty stores in the early 80's. I have also occasionally seen a similar mix from the Oetker company.

I seem to remember a Monty Python skit about giant mutant blancmages attacking people. I'll have to crack open my python DVD's and see if I can find it.

Jason

There was a skit about a blancmange that won Wimbledon, which culminated with this enormous amorphic racket-wielding pudding jumping over the net. I remember my sisters, brother and I rolling around on the floor hysterical over this. My sister, who was about ten (this is early seventies) and a terrific mimic used to do all the voices and jump around imitating the pudding which cracked us up even further.

Right.. "THE BLANCMAGES ARE TAKING WIMBLEDON!!!!"

Now I remember. Lemme see if I can drag up the script.

I believe this is also what is referred to as a "shape" (often with horror!) in numerous English novels!

In searching for blancmange I found versions thickened with sea moss, gelatin, agar-agar and most commonly cornstarch. The definition linked below seems on target.

Link: http://www.allrecipes.com/encyc/terms...

Thanks, Jen. Good resource site, too.

What is junket please?
Must be an East Coast thing.
Also, I used to know what rumaki is. Can't remember.
Thanks.

Junket is a brand name for a dessert that is actually just rennet (like for making cheese) and flavoring. It makes a sort of quivery pudding from milk, I think.

Rumaki are chicken livers wrapped with water chestnut slices in bacon, and broiled. A very popular homemade appetizer in the 50's and 60's. I remember reading that they were actually invented by an appliance manufacturer, but I don't know if that's true.

Junket isn't a brand name -- it turns up in online dictionaries as the primary definition (even before "trip"!) for the word. Perhaps this pudding is so great that govt. officials fudge paid trips to go have some?

Rumaki may or may not have been "invented" by said appliance manufacturer, but the word is just a misspelling [intentional?] of "harumaki" -- Japanese spring rolls.

Was this manufacturer in the US or Japan? Japanese I asked were of no help on this term, because an unrelated "ru" means filler/sauce/stew base (French roux), so "rumaki" sounded like "wrapped STUFF" to them !!

The word "junket" is probably derived from the French "jonches", for rushes. Fresh milk cheeses were traditionally made by putting the curds into rush baskets or on rush pallets in order to let the whey drain away. What we know as junket (my grandma used to eat it, I confess it was so repulsive-looking I never tasted it)is made from the same curds(not drained so thoroughly, with some of the whey still incorporated) as the farmhouse fresh milk cheeses , which have basically the same ingredients as junket but are further drained and sometimes then salted and/or shaped.

I was curious, and checked the net. I see repeated references to Junket as a DANISH dessert. In fact, it says so right on the box. One website that sells it says: "Danish Dessert Mixes Unique and easy to prepare. Originates from an original recipe of the Danish favorite, Rød grød". Surprised me.

It is a wonderfully fruity dessert.

I agree! It is great! I got 2 packages from my mother in Florida before Easter. It refreshed my memory of how delicious it is. I found the company online and discovered Redco Foods, Inc. has a direct order line. I am going to try it and see if I can order a supply.
1-800-556-6674
Have you found any other places to get it?
Happy Eating!

> The word "junket" is probably derived from the French "jonches", for rushes.

More or less. From yourdictionary.com:

Etymology: Middle English ioncate, ultimately from (assumed) Vulgar Latin juncata, from Latin juncus rush
Date: 15th century

1 : a dessert of sweetened flavored milk set with rennet

2 a : a festive social affair b : TRIP, JOURNEY; especially : a trip made by an official at public expense

----------
Actually, I've never even heard of the stuff. Who makes that packaged version, Bilmo? I couldn't find any such thing in the supermarkets [Seattle] this morning. Thought I'd give it a try.

"Rennet" -- which I was also unfamiliar with -- sounds disgusting enough on its own!! Gelatine made from stomach linings?!?!?! UGH!!

Pass the haggis....

Well, if you don't like the animal source of rennet, there's a lot of cheese you better stay away from, too!

All together now... (in Homer Simpsons voice)
mmmmmmm haggis.

How is eating something stuffed into a stomach any different from eating sausage (stuffed intestines)?
Actually, I've always rather wanted to taste haggis- and a friend who's coming to visit from Scotland has threatened to bring one-if he can get it past customs I'll report.

I am so glad I found you, oh junket-mavens! Having used several traditional as well as specialized search engines, and a few based in Britain and Europe, I was unable to find the information I’ve landed on in this newsgroup.

On the day my middle-aged body said, “Do not put that stuff into me…” in a serious tone, I decided to return to the foods I grew up with in beautiful little Meaford, Ontario, Can, on the south shore of Georgian Bay. The family operated a small farm and orchard, so for most of my childhood there was plenty of milk.
It wasn’t hard to find information about pearl tapioca, rice and other custard-type puddings, but apparently ‘junket’ was a short visit, or a product on the shelves of online grocery stores. In my memory, junket was something you ate when you were very, very ill and Mother was following the recommendations outlined in the ‘semi solid’ diet sheet. (Anybody remember the 'sippi (sp?) diet? Good heavens. Thick cream for a gastric ulcer!) I liked junket in those days, but the bit about the stomach linings and haggis caused a revisit to the junket idea.

Martha Gandier, Toronto

Rumaki: oops, I forgot the water chestnut.

Thanks everyone for jumping in and giving me all the information I wanted to know about rumaki and junket, but have been afraid to ask.

Rumaki was very popular at Trader Vic's in the 60's. It's chicken livers wrapped with a bacon strip (and sometimes a little soaking of teriyaki sauce) and broiled til done. Very tasty, even if it isn't very good for you..sigh..

I am well under 50 and I remember junket quite well. My Mom used to give it to me when I was ill. Vanilla, raspberry and chocolate flavors. I only liked the first bite then the whole thing would separate into syrup and the firmer stuff floating around.

Heidi- Well, unfortunately I'm NOT under 50, my mother used to feed me junket when I was ill, too. I'd forgotten about the separating. Another dish she made when I wasn't feeling well was a combination of mashed potatoes & mashed carrots with a big dollop of butter floating on top. Somehow it never tastes the same when I make it.

Ooh, that sounds good. I'll have to try it out sometime.

Hi Bryan,

Though it probably isn't worth the air fare, crustless sandwiches are alive and well here in Tokyo. Actually, trying to find a sandwich in a restaurant WITH the crust is actually an endangered species. And, for the convenience of the shopping public, it is now possible to buy bread in the supermarket sans crust.

Yoroshiku,
Andy

BTW, my kitchen is now the best place in Tokyo to get a deep dish pizza. Thanks for the advice about learning to make my own.

Hey, how about Welsh Rarebit??? Does anyone remember the chain of restaurants in New England called the Red Coach Grill?? Dark wood,plaid carpets... they made great welsh rarebit on toast, moderately spiced and with a dash of sherry. That was my comfort food when
our whole family piled into a car on a family trip.

My Mom would, far too infrequently for my taste, make Welsh Rarebit for us. Howard Johnson's, where we went quite a bit as kids, and where I got my first "out of the family" and first restaurant job, served it. Like a lot of Howard Johnson stuff, it was in single serving boil-in-bags, just heat and eat.

There is a restaurant in Copperopolis, on Tulloch Lake, that puts a fondue pot of Welsh Rarebit and toast on the table automaticly when you come in for dinner.

About two months ago, I bought Rick Rodgers' cookbook "Fondue". We picked up a fondue pot for $10 at Stein Mart, and the first thing I made was Welsh Rarebit.

That Rick Rodgers FONDUE cookbook is the best fondue cookbook ever written (and I've got a dozen). The best recipe (he says so himself) is a gruyere/caramelized onion number, for which you basically start making onion soup, and suddenly it's fondue! It's like eating the top of onion soup gratinee for 45 minutes or so.

Bilmo: One of my son's favorites was cheese fondue and I always served it on his birthday. I use imported Swiss, gruyere, and emanthaler..a recipe I got from a local cheese shop..sadly, no longer here.

Hi there: Would it be possible for you to e-mail me your recipe for Welsh Rarebit? Thanks, BOB

yummm, Welsh Rarebit. I have a lovely welsh rarebit bread pudding that I make at the end of the holiday season that I really love.

It started out because I was trying to figure out what to do with all the bread bits leftover from making breadcup appetizers for holiday parties.

Then one day, I soaked the bread in beer, added in welsh rarebit and baked it. Sometimes beaten egg white to make it a Welsh Rarebit Souffle.

I haven't developed it into a formal recipe yet but its fabulous.

There was a very good English restaurant in Beverly Hills in the 60's that made fabulous Welch Rarebit. Does anyone remember the name? It was on Wilshire Blvd.

Jim, I assume you're talking about restaurants (certainly, some of this stuff [wild rice, cinnamon toast, pudding, pineapple upside down cake--made with gingerbread] lives on in my kitchen).

Pizza burger sightings: million-kindsa-burger places like Jackson Hole in NYC and Barney's in the SF Bay Area.

True hash browns (i.e. crispy grated potatoes, no onions, peppers, etc.) live on at Lois the Pie Queen in Oakland, where egg orders come with choice of hash browns, grits, or rice and toast or biscuits. Breakfast, southern style.

Haven't seen a non-Benedict poached egg since ???

I believe Hasenpfeffer is a rabbit stew.

My addition: REAL spaghetti carbonara, i.e., no cream, peas, mushrooms, prosciutto, etc., just pancetta/bacon, butter, egg, parmagiano, maybe parsley.

->My addition: REAL spaghetti carbonara, i.e., no ->cream, peas, mushrooms,prosciutto, etc., just ->pancetta/bacon, butter, egg, parmagiano, maybe ->parsley.

This is interesting, I just spent a month in Italy, being fed constantly by 4 aunts (2 in Tuscany 2 in Sicily) Just the mention of wanting something, was met with a race to the kitchen. (It got scary after awhile)

One day I mentioned spaghetti carbonara, I was so use to the cream/peas/mushroom thing, I was kind of surpised and pleased to see it prepared the way you just mentioned. I was so use to preparing it with all those extras, I had forgotten how much better it is this way.

Sphagetti Carbonara in and of itself is not a genuine Italian dish. It was invented during World War II when the GI's used to get shipments of bacon from home and they would bring it to the local families and whatnot who didnt know what to do with all of it -- so they came up with carbonara. Honest.

So yes, you can still get it in Italy, but as to what real sphagetti carbonara is quite debatable, it was a thrown together dish to begin with.

No dissing it at all -- I happen to love the dish and all variants of it. Any pasta dish with bacon in it or prosciutto is way up my list!

I realize you were responding to phil's having spaghetti carbobara while in Italy, but: I couldn't care less if it's "really" Italian or if it's Ghanaian; I just don't think the original concept exists in restaurants anymore. Restaurant carbonara seems to be cream sauce, invariably w/peas and/or mushrooms, and often some non-bacon pork products thrown in. Nothing wrong with that per se, but why call it what it's not? On the one hand, why should I care--I haven't eaten bacon or other pork for at least 15 years. But on the other hand, it saddens me to see the exinction of the elemental spaghetti carbonara of my childhood, which was just bacon, butter, egg, parmagiano, and usuaslly some parsley and lots of pepper to cut the richness. I'd be thrilled to see that on a restaurant menu, even though I personally wouldn't be eating it!

Wow I am surprised to hear that. I even think there was something in this month's Saveur about Rome and how the dish was invented there or at least in Lazio.

I had always heard the story that carbonara that the the dish is named for , is a charcoal maker and the black pepper (some put in) reperesents the charcoal flecks that had fallen in the disk.

Check out this recipe with the accompanying explanation:

http://italianfood.about.com/food/italianfood/library/rec/blr0076.htm

Whatever the origin the recipe sounds pretty good.

I believe I remember hearing the WWII/GI theory from David Rosengarten on his TV show... he's usually pretty informed about this stuff.

Link: http://italianfood.about.com/food/ita...

I think that the original carbonara (Caitlin's right: comes from "charcoal makers," really woodcutters) originated in the days when the woodsmen, who stayed out in the forests for weeks, brought only the relatively non-perishables: salted/smoked bacon (pancetta), eggs, cheese, pepper and salt. The "Carbonara Americana" came after WW2, when the GIs tasted the original and "improved" it in the mess halls by tossing in peas, shrooms, whathaveyou that the Army shipped over. As the old Italian expression goes, you're right, you're right, you're both right!

BTW, for a *very* rich version, Calvin Trillin offers his recipe in Molly O'Neill's "New York Cookbook" (one of the few recipes that actually works, but that's another story. But **warning**: do *not* even attempt the "ceviche" (hah!) with . . . get this, sports fans . . . ketchup! Yucchhh!)

My boyfriend put this dish on his menu last winter, prepared as you remember it (no peas,no cream, definitely no mushrooms,and with pancetta as the pork product). He thought it would be great for people to enjoy carbonara as it was traditionally prepared, but wasn't sure that it would fly in Westport, CT. Much to his surprise, it was very popular. It's currently not on the menu (it's pretty rich for summer time), but will probably make a return this fall. So it's not extinct just yet!

Just about every Italian(-American) restaurant in the Dee Cee metro area -- the "Pines" chain (DC, Alex'ia, Bethesda, Arlington, etc etc) comes to mind -- serves Carbonara, and lots of other places too. Hardly extinct, not nearly endangered, more like thriving. Come on down!

Ah, yes, but it is the elemental carbonara the extinction of which I mentioned--just speghetti with pancetta, butter, eggs, parmagiano, parsley, and pepper--or the typical restaurant concoctin of peas and/or mushrooms, etc. in a cream-based sauce? The original, unfussy, carbonara is the one that is AWOL from restaurant menus, as far as I can tell.

Perhaps the reason that the real article is so rarely seen in restaurants is that--along with spaghetti aglio e olio--it is something any halfway competent home cook can make herself or himself in about five minutes using ingredients that keep pretty well. It's as close to a failsafe recipe as there is in the canon.

I suspect a huge percentage of the people who really enjoy the intense porkiness of the ``authentic'' version never bother to order it out.

I've been told that a Roman purist would insist on guanciale and Pecorino Romano instead of pancetta and parmesan.

[melpy]

Every place in PA that serves either carbonara or vodka sauce adds ham (like shredded lunchmeat) and peas. Carbonara usually contains cream here. Makes me want to cry (and order something else.