286520 Sat Sep 02 03:33:37 -0700 2000 10 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1536596 " Wow...an incredibly useful info dump. I've long known about Conde de Waldemar and its Reserva, Riscal, & Montecillo. I can't wait to try the others (to the extent that Georgia's crippled wine distribution system will allow). Thank you, thank you. (In order that this knowledge trove not be lost within the discussion of a specific restaurant, maybe it should be moved to the General Topics Area?) Really, its too important to misplace." Thanks for the kind words, Steve. Availability of Spanish wines in Calif. has been fairly limited too. With the shift to more modern, fruit-forward styles, we're seeing more here. Mostly in restaurants though, and not that much in the retail channel. The traditional styles were considered a specialty item for Hispanic clientele in the NE and Florida. I still remember being ga-ga over the selection of Spanish wines and the low prices at a business dinner at Forno's of Spain in Newark, NJ last year. Many older and rare bottlings of Rioja, Ribera del Duero and other regions. Since my colleagues weren't much into wine, we only ordered one bottle, 1990 Clos Erasmus, which is one of the new wave Prioratos. It was only about $50, whereas I knew it had sold at auction recently for over $100! I wish we had access to those treasures out here. Hope you can find some of them in your market. I have a couple of wonderful wine pals in Georgia. Chuck and Memy Miller were here a few months ago and we had a feast at R&G Lounge in SF. He is leading a consumer movement locally to open up interstate shipping of fine wines. I'm sure he'd welcome your support. You can contact him at charles.miller-fairburn-ga@worldnet.att.net I'll also plug the organization (link below) which is organizing initiatives to fight for consumers' rights against the distributors' monopoly power. Link: http://freethegrapes.org/ I've long known about Conde de Waldemar and its Reserva, Riscal, & Montecillo. I can't wait to Sat Sep 02 03:33:37 -0700 2000 0 Melanie Wong 1 1536599 [also continuing from the SF board] i can't imagine ANY benefit to ageing a wine such as marques de riscal's reserva. and alion, the little brother of vegas sicilia, is as over hyped and poor a food-companion as alejandro fernandez's pesquera and condado de haza as i've ever found. spain re-discovers california and mass marketing; the result? utterly boring, oaky wines with little acidity. but trendy. very trendy. what ARE these wines good to eat with? Sat Sep 02 20:57:25 -0700 2000 1536596 0 howler 2 1536610 Hey there, Howler! Nice to see you. Yes, conventional wisdom says that Rioja Reserva tintos (reds) are ready to drink and at their best when released to the market. That's the point of the repeated fining, filtration, aging in wood and aging in bottle afterall. But I have a couple friends who swear by laying down the best vintages of reservas. Tasting is believing, and a 90 Conde de Valdemar reserva opened recently was delicious, lively and attractive with tertiary complexity from aging. Even more remarkable as this is a non-traditional producer who emphasizes fresh fruitiness, not a wine I'd usually pick for the cellar. I had purchased about 6 bottles of 1994 Marques de Riscal Rioja Reserva when it was released. I decided to experiment with them over the next few years to see how they age. When I tasted this wine soon after release, it was clear that there was more stuffing and structure than earlier efforts. Nice balance, polished and elegant. Also, it was made in a less oxidative style. So far, I've been happy with the results from the couple bottles I've opened. They're getting better. This may be frivolous and not worth the effort if you have to pay $12/month/case for temperature-controlled storage, but I don't have that problem. Please share your tasting experience with the 1994 that would lead you to believe that it hasn't improved and become more complex in the bottle over the last three years. Keep in mind that 1994 was a watershed vintage for both Rioja and RdD with both California-like ripeness and the rewards from cleaning up cellar practices. Personally, I don't miss the excessive volatile acidity (vinegar) and chicken shit aromas that marked many traditional Spanish wines - but different strokes, etc. Some Rioja producers expressed concern that the 1994 wines were too big - in fruit and tannin - due to vintage conditions for their traditional customers. Giving some of these wines more time in bottle has let them fold into themselves, develop more bottle bouquet and not be so fruit-dominated. Images of sunny Spain often lead to the mistaken impression that La Rioja and Ribera del Duero wine regions are hot climates. In fact due to higher elevation, the best vineyards are quite cool Continental climate zone (cooler than parts of the Cote d'Or) and their fruit yields complex flavors and fine natural acidity. Also the Tempranillo (or Tinto de Pais variant of RdD) is naturally high in acid. So it's quite curious that you would describe Alion, Pesquera and Condado de Haza as having little acidity. Especially the CdH, since the oldest vines on the estate were only planted in 1989 and I have found the 94, 95 & 96 vintages to show the shrillness typical of young vine fruit. I don't have Total Acidity numbers or pH figures, but to my palate both Alion and Pesquera have good natural acidity under those masses of dense fruit. Lots of powerful fruit and riper tannins in recent years cloaking the acidity but still enough brightness to carry the weight and length and hold in the cellar. Granted I prefer the more prounounced acid structure of wines from the Rioja Alta region (which many at my table find too tart), yet I still enjoy the top RdD wines for the indigenous taste of Tinto de Pais, strength and complexity of dark fruit, and the old world character of earth and natural acidity. The new style RdDs are indeed oaky. But not out of proportion to the ripeness and depth of fruit achieved in 94, 95 & 96. The trick will be if they're able to adjust the wood regimen for lighter vintages. Tinto de Pais does appear to be able to suck up the new oak with time in bottle, unlike Syrah or Zinfandel even though they seem to be even more robust grape varieties. The polymerization pattern of wood tannins with the phenols of each grape is still a mystery to me. The 1994 Teofilo Reyes tasted recently has integrated the wood beautifully whereas it was very splintery, albeit in equal measure with the over the top richness of fruit, when young. Do you find mature versions of RdD too oaky? The power and concentration of fruit makes RdD rather monolithic when young. This is common with other great young wines that need extended aging to reveal nuances and personality beyond fruit and become better food companions to my taste. But the people who like big powerful wines drink them alone, with food, and any way they can - that's their choice. As far as what they're good to eat with, if you visited a bodega in RdD and they took a liking to you, you would probably be served baby lamb chops grilled over vine cuttings. Or maybe roast suckling pig, both choices not unlike the fare in Bordeaux. I'm finding that RdD is taking the place of Bordeaux in my cellar and on the dinner table. Last year I paired the 96 Condado de Haza with Peking Duck for a Chinese banquet at Harbor Village in SF. Two of the three tables of 8 were very enthusiastic about the wine and the match, whereas the third table was split and didn't finish the bottle. When asked to taste from their bottle, it was much more gamey and leathery with brett than the other two bottles. Half the people at the table loved this qualty; the other half could hardly bring themselves to smell the wine. Alejandro Fernandez makes a big deal about not filtering his wines, and this one went into a full brettanomyces bloom. Well, here's the tally - Mike is nutty for Ribera del Duero, Wonki prefers Rioja, Steve's a Rioja fan, you're down on RdD, and I like both. How do other chowhounds feel? Mon Sep 04 03:26:48 -0700 2000 1536599 0 Melanie Wong 3 1536615 I vote for Sangre de Toro. I don't think I've drunk the definitive Rioja yet; all the bottles I have tried have seemed too harsh to my taste. I've only drunk RdD once, and liked it but not enough to drink it instead of wines I am more familiar with. Mon Sep 04 14:23:38 -0700 2000 1536610 0 Jeremy 4 1536641 Hi Jeremy, Sangre de Toro is made from mostly Garnacha and some Cariñena (Carignan), giving it juicy berry fruit, spice, soft tannins, and an approachable style. From the way you reacted to Rioja, it sounds like you are extra sensitive to acidic or tannic wines. Another wine you might like, also from the Catalonia area but a slightly different region, is Scala Dei El Cipres from Priorato. This is mostly Garnacha with lots of jammy plummy fruit and white pepper spice. Not quite as exuberant as the Sangre de Toro , heartier and with a fuller mouthfeel. Around $10. Tue Sep 05 16:28:51 -0700 2000 1536615 0 Melanie Wong 5 1536659 Sangre de Toro was on sale in a store not far from me for $4/bottle. oustanding deal, I bought a few cases. Your description is, as usual, awesome. I find it goes real well with any Medit. food...garlicky, lemony, eggplanty, lamby. Its "approachable" style makes it work as an everyday wine--I don't get sick of it (hence the continued usefulness of my several cases!) Not the most interesting wine in the world, but it's a solid value, even at its usual $9-12 price jim Wed Sep 06 00:36:38 -0700 2000 1536641 0 Jim Leff 6 1536663 Great buy! So this is the Leff house red? Yes, Grenache and Carignane is THE Mediterranean cuvée, and loves the sunny flavors of the local food. Miguel Torres deserves accolades for being able to turn out such a consistently pleasing wine for that price. In fact he's won many awards within that price category. I've heard that annual production of Torres Sangre de Toro is 300,000+ cases for that one wine alone. That's more than about 4 medium size Calif. wineries. Wed Sep 06 04:31:04 -0700 2000 1536659 0 Melanie Wong 5 1536665 So if I aged a rioja for a few years would the tannic flavor go away? Wed Sep 06 10:28:08 -0700 2000 1536641 0 Jeremy 6 1536710 I tend to think of tannins more as a texture – firmness, astringency, or chalky dryness - than a taste. But sometimes it registers as a bitter note, sort of like walnut skin or plum skin. Tannin and acidity will soften with time. But the fruit in a wine will change too. The trick is whether all of the elements in a wine will change simultaneously in an attractive way with more age. Some wine collectors swear by a "forced aging" test to judge how a red wine will mature. What you do is pour two glasses of wine from a freshly opened bottle – be sure to allow plenty of headspace in the glass for aeration by swirling. Stick the cork back in the bottle immediately and store in the fridge. Taste from one glass immediately and again at the 4-hour mark; taste from the second glass after 8 hours. The next day, after giving the bottle time to warm up to 65°F, taste from the remains of the bottle. As you try these samples, take note of the character of the fruit, acid and tannins and how they change with accumulated exposure to air. The theory is that this "violent" introduction to air mimics the slow oxidative reactions of bottle aging allowing you to judge whether a wine will benefit from aging or is at its best now. You may also find that a particular wine drinks best with between 2 to 4 hours of aeration in a decanter. Fri Sep 08 15:33:56 -0700 2000 1536665 0 Melanie Wong 7 1536711 Thanks Melanie, It's only been a year or so since I started drinking wine paying any attention to the flavor of it; I don't really have the vocabulary yet to describe my reactions to a particular glass of wine. I have noticed in the past few months, if I pour a glass from a newly opened bottle and it has the quality that I have been thinking is called "tannin", which makes me wince a little when I drink it, that letting the open bottle stand a few hours will often take the harsh edge off and give me a much more pleasant drink. Fri Sep 08 15:47:43 -0700 2000 1536710 0 Jeremy Osner 8 1536722 Careful, you're headed down the road to wine geekdom. I think we often drink wines too quickly from the time they're first opened and poured. Notice how the last glass often tastes the best? There've been several attempts at explaining this phenomenon, including that one's taste buds are sotted by that point. I think the extra breathing (aeration) helps most young wines, even whites. My winegeekish behavior has sometimes compelled me to ask a server in a restaurant for an extra coffee mug. Then I pour my wine back and forth from my wine glass a few times to get more air into it so I can drink it earlier. Hopefully, my dining companions aren't too, too embarassed. Sat Sep 09 02:49:33 -0700 2000 1536711 0 Melanie Wong