286481 Thu Aug 03 14:57:08 -0700 2000 51 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1536231 Here's a question that's bound to stir up some conversation: In your opinion, what are America's best cities for chowhounding? And why? Thu Aug 03 14:57:08 -0700 2000 0 Seth Ditchik 1 1536232 I recommend my city of origin - Cleveland, OH - as one of the best. Because of the large and varied ethnic communities throughout the city, one can find virtually any kind of chow, plus there's been a real boom in "serious" dining within the past five or six years. A trip to Cleveland can be a nonstop chow tour- lox, eggs, and onions at Jack's Deli, then down to the West Side Market to buy a trunk load of insanely cheap produce and eat brats and spicy klobasz with sauerkraut from Frank's stand, maybe on to the Pyramid for Mid-Eastern that rivals anything on Atlantic Ave. in Brooklyn. There's Lucy's in the Buckeye neighborhood for Hungarian baked goods, Phnom Penn on the near West side for knockout Cambodian, and Seoul Hot Pot on Payne Avenue - a Korean restaurant that up until recently did double-duty as a pizza/sub shop and serves the best soon dofu I've ever had. For an odder, but still very tasty, experience, there's Ola's Diner on E.185th Street - it's a diner that serves standard fare and a full Nigerian menu, so patrons can enjoy bacon and eggs or goat with jollof rice. On the upscale side, the rabbit strudel and sweet potato/lobster pierogies at Lola have been a hit with everyone I've brought there. And this is about 1/20th of the whole picture. It's easy to complain about the culinary wasteland of Northeastern Ohio, because it doesn't take any effort to stick your head out of the airport shuttle and see Denny's, the Lonestar Steakhouse, and the Macaroni Grill. But a bit of time spent nosing around brings amazing rewards. Thu Aug 03 15:30:40 -0700 2000 1536231 0 Lauren 2 1536235 Lauren, Have you read Soul of a Chef? The middle section is about Lola. It made me want to visit Cleveland. Your post has the same effect. So much good food, so little time (and money). pat Thu Aug 03 17:01:52 -0700 2000 1536232 0 pat hammond 3 1536236 Pat, I haven't read Soul of a Chef yet, but it's on the list. I've read other things he's written and really enjoyed them, and since Lola is featured in the new book it's pretty much a must-have for me! And by all means, visit Cleveland! Tickets can usually be had fairly cheaply, and lodging is reasonable. Also - and yet another reason why the eating is so good - with the exception of a few places that you probably wouldn't want to go in the first place, nothing you eat is gonna break the bank. In an effort to increase tourism, a lot of the downtown hotels have weekend getaway (or eataway!) packages, so I say go, get fat, and have fun!! Thu Aug 03 17:19:26 -0700 2000 1536235 0 Lauren 4 1536243 Thanks for the invite! If you go to Lola's, one of the things that intrigued me on his menu was fried ginger calamari. I'm definitely going to try to reproduce that one myself. pat Fri Aug 04 09:44:50 -0700 2000 1536236 0 pat hammond 5 1536268 I recently (June) did an Ohio stint--I'm from Toledo, and my sister lives in Cleveland; I've lived in Manhattan for 22 years--and found that the food there, while VASTLY improved since my youth, was surprisingly pricey. I've been to Lola's three times, and it's my favorite Cleveland restaurant--this was before the CHEF book and the FOOD & WINE "Best Chefs in America" cover story two years ago. But the prices absolutely compare with those in high-moderate Manhattan restaurants. My two cents: I've never been anywhere in the world that compares with New York City in terms of culinary diversity, and that's because no such place could possibly exist at the moment. Anyone who feels differently sure hasn't read Jim Leff's book! Sat Aug 05 17:14:48 -0700 2000 1536243 0 Tom Steele 1 1536294 San Francisco. The level of involvement of the general populace is unmatched. The standard demanded by the populace is unequaled. This is a place where Zagat's is the appropriate measuring device, being a distillation of the opinions of so many diners. A 27 for food is Los Angeles, for example, would not rate higher than a 21 or 22 if it were in San Francisco. Tue Aug 08 00:02:29 -0700 2000 1536231 0 Ed 2 1536298 I would have to agree about San Francisco. Maybe because I'm a cook, but I have met so many people who are excited about food. A couple of weeks ago, there was an article in the SF Chronicle (or should I say Comical?) about the cook shortage in restaurants on the FRONT PAGE. Not the Food Section. Maybe it's because of the constantly evolving produce. Maybe cause Alice Waters is so much part of the lexicon. Maybe because we have access to so much. But it is very much part of the culture here. Tue Aug 08 11:24:52 -0700 2000 1536294 0 MA 3 1536299 "But it is very much part of the culture here" You may disagree with this, but I think SF just has more of the kind of people who are into food (both foodies and chowhounds). I don't think it's penetrated any more deeply into the cultural fabric itself. On the other hand, on my first trip to New Orleans, I played in a bar filled with college kids, the type who in any other city would have been drinking Bud and eating nachos and listening to awful pop music. But they were dancing and totally enjoying jazz in a way that only 80-year olds still do anywhere else. And while they were drinking Bud (can't avoid that ANYWHERE), when it came time for the club to put out its big pot of free rice and beans and we all lined up, I got into an animated discussion with the guy in front of me about the intricacies and deep aesthetic virtues of rice and beans. The guy in front of me was 6 foot 6, a football star at Tulane. Others in the line joined the discussion. They weren't intellectual kids or particularly freakish in any way. Just regular old college kids who were willing--happy!--to talk with the same obsessed focus and detail about food as you'd find on these message boards. It was downright surreal. Why I didn't immediately move down there I'll never understand. ciao Tue Aug 08 12:10:35 -0700 2000 1536298 0 Jim Leff 4 1536496 Love this thread, and I agree with you that New Orleans is probably the city where food has most deeply permeated the soul of the average citizen. In my experience, only Kansas City competes in this regard. For sheer chowhounding opportunities, I'd pick Los Angeles and New York. I've found that the lows are relatively high in SF and Seattle, but the highs just aren't anywhere near as high as in any of the other four cities above. I'd also put in a word for Chicago, a place I haven't chowhounded seriously in 25 years. Chicagoans are passionate about their food, but the palette seems more limited than LA or NY. Sat Aug 26 02:58:01 -0700 2000 1536299 0 Dave Feldman 5 1536502 In sheer number, variety and quality of ethnic restaurants, Los Angeles is the greatest city in the history of the world. But I'll agree with Dave: Chicago may be the only city in the country where ``chowhound'' tastes rule; where it is almost impossible to get a good expensive meal but great eats are like falling off a log. Sat Aug 26 14:15:09 -0700 2000 1536496 0 Pepper 6 1536508 But, Pepper, getting good, cheap food in L.A. is equally like falling off a log. I recently took a fellow Chowhound from N.Y. on a mini-tour of Thai Town in Hollywood, and it was very hard to find anything less that terrific food at bargain prices. (BTW, the wild boar curry at Palms blew his mind.) And the number and variety of great Chowhoundy places to eat in L.A. dwarfs the number and variety in Chicago, at least in my experience. The difference is just that L.A. also has some terrific high end places, while Chicago's high end joints suck by comparison. But that still, in my book, makes L.A. the far superior city for Chowhounding. Sat Aug 26 21:09:28 -0700 2000 1536502 0 Tom Armitage 3 1536655 Front page news stories in SF about food and restauraunts speak more to the quality of the papers than to the quality of the chowhounds. While I agree that SF is a fantastic place to eat, your post reminded me that about a year after I moved to SF, within two weeks I saw a front page story about shrimp (the story was mostly about how tasty they are), and a front page story about squid (mostly about how they are caught). There is no news day so slow that these puff-pastry pieces belonged there. On the other hand, there is evidence to your point - the main alternative weekly, the Bay Guardian, has at least three restaurant reviews a week - a normal one, tending to sit-down bistros and up, a cheap eats one, as well as alternating East Bay and vegetarian reviews, I think biweekly... There's also a "Side Dish" column which chronicles the behind the scenes goings on in the food biz... The other weekly is not quite as extensive in its coverage, but they both have long lists of capsule reviews of restaurants as part of the regular pressing. MZ Tue Sep 05 20:28:45 -0700 2000 1536298 0 Mike Zurer 2 1536300 I think that the best way to use Zagat to compare the general critical level of different cities is to look at the various scores for Morton's of Chicago. This restaurant is widely proliferated and known for its rigorous uniform quality control. As a steakhouse it is the type of restaurant appreciated throughout the US. Ed is correct that San Francisco has the highest standards giving Morton's a score of 22, the lowest in the country. Los Angeles comes in at 25. Although there is undoubtedly some margin for error, I believe that this information provides some insight: 22-San Francisco 23-New York City, Houston 24-Atlanta, Philadelphia 25-Los Angeles, Dallas, Boston, Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Miami, Stamford Ct. 26-Washington DC, Phoenix, Denver, Chicago, Orlando, Baltimore, San Diego Tue Aug 08 13:05:34 -0700 2000 1536294 0 jason 3 1536301 That's very interesting. I like that. But here in Philadelphia, I understand that they've cut portion size, as have other high end chain steak restaurants here, so that prices can be reduced, on the theory that Philadelphia won't support the prices necessary to provide the same steakhouse experience that diners in other cities enjoy. So, you're not quite comparing apples to apples. Tue Aug 08 16:13:19 -0700 2000 1536300 0 Bilmo 3 1536303 Interesting point and interesting data. But even if the segment of a city's population that fills out Zagat forms for the types of restaurants that are included in the Zagat guides is stingier with high scores than the same population segment of another city, so what? Does that make the former city a better "Chowhound" city? Or just a better "foodie" city? Here's a different perspective: Most of the Japanese, Thai, Korean, and other Asian restaurants discussed on the Los Angeles board aren't in the Zagat guide, and I can assure you that most of the people who eat at these restaurants don't fill out Zagat surveys. Yet it's these restaurants, along with other ethnic restaurants, local diners, and non-mainstream-type places that are the treasures of Chowhoundom. For sheer availability of such places, and for the consumer demand that supports this supply, I think that Los Angeles and New York lead the way. (I recently read somewhere that Los Angeles is now the most culturally diverse city in the United States, ahead of New York. I'll try to verify this, but I can personally vouch for the fact that the cultural diversity of Los Angeles is extraordinary, and the opportunity to mine this cultural diversity is a Chowhound's dream.) Tue Aug 08 20:52:02 -0700 2000 1536300 0 Tom Armitage 4 1536306 Actually, Zagat's, at least in San Francisco, is full of first class "ethnic" places from The Helmand to The Straits Cafe to Angkor Wat to The Blue Nile. In fact, there are 61 different kinds of food categories into which the listings are divided. The point of the quality difference is that, faced with a more discriminating and demanding clientele, ALL restaurants and their staffs rise to the higher standard if they want to be in business. As far as it being part of the culture, again, a rising tide raises all boats. Folks who, in Flyover America, would be happily demanding "grits 'n grease", learn, almost by osmosis, the difference between good food and great food. People adopt, to some degree, the values of the milieu in which they live, and in San Francisco one of the paramount values is the ability to "distinguer" when it comes to food. Wed Aug 09 00:27:10 -0700 2000 1536303 0 Ed 1 1536497 Permit me a vote for my (temporary, I assure you) home, our nation's capital: home of insipid, insecure "we're better than the latest in NY, I swear" pathetic excuses for food, where "Tabasco" (don't get me started) is deemed "outrageous!". Okay, execeptions first. Exception 1: Pizzeria Paradiso. Stands up to any of the "John's" clones. Downside, interminable waits, even beyond a New Yorker's tolerance; upside, young and fresh vegetables, and wow! this is awesome 'za! Exception 2: pretty much anything at any restaurant at the Eden Center, where my favorite moment (aside from seeing one of the Seven Sisters with a tray of shaky beef) is the raising of the flag of the Republic of VietNam! (PS: Nixon was a secret Dem.) Exception 3: to be continued. . . . Sat Aug 26 03:30:02 -0700 2000 1536231 0 John 2 1536500 I second the nomination of Washington, D.C. as chowhound hell. The food there is as insipid, listless, and phony-fascist as the federalist architecture. What a gut-hole! The only thing there is to like about Washington, IMHO, is the museum. Without a doubt, the worst restaurant food I've ever had was in Washington. And the "street food" is horrendous. The worst "soft pretzel" I have EVER had was in Washington--I tossed it after one bite. And I was hungry! I'd rather have eaten a leather glove. Even fancy-dancy Georgetown has lousy restaurants with inflated prices. And there's no excuse! The foodstuffs and produce to which Washington chefs have access is beautiful and bountiful. It's sheer lack of imagination and timidity. If I never go to Washington again, it will be far too soon. Gosh--I feel so much better! Sat Aug 26 13:37:05 -0700 2000 1536497 0 Tom Steele 3 1536504 I agree that, for a "major" city, DC is surprisingly lackluster. However, if we are going to seriously determine a true nadir, I would suggest a jaunt further south. I've never been in a city with fewer interesting or satisfying culinary chioces than Birmingham, AL. Pathetic. Sat Aug 26 16:36:28 -0700 2000 1536500 0 Eric R. 4 1536514 Jim is absolutely right. Washington, DC may not be NYC or Chicago, but if you know where to go, you can certainly eat well. Check out the raves for Kinkeads on the DC board. And neighborhoods like Adams Morgan, Bethesda, and Wheaton offer great variety for the discriminating chowhound.A couple of personal favorites I'd recommend for our friend to try when he finds himself in town exploring Washington's other museums include:AV Ristorante; an classic Italian at 6th and Massachusetts, NW.Udapi Palace: a wonderful vegetarian Indian place in Langley Park, MD. I certainly agree that our nation's capital suffers from NY envy but visitors who don't expect the overwhelming choices of the Big Apple shouldn't be disappointed, especially if they check with the recommendations on the Chowhound board first. Sun Aug 27 23:40:33 -0700 2000 1536504 0 TBOO 5 1536516 I haven't been to DC all that often, but the best Ethiopian food I've had was in DC.....I forget the name of the place, though. Mon Aug 28 07:38:34 -0700 2000 1536514 0 Peter 6 1536560 Perhaps you went to Red Sea? It's a fantastic place in Adams Morgan. Personally, I'd like to suggest Bukom Cafe - West African style food. Tremendous. Wed Aug 30 16:09:55 -0700 2000 1536516 0 Cap Hill 7 1536561 I've gotta chime in on this one, as a former American University student. Some of the best international food I have ever had in my life has been in DC. In fact my first exposure to Ethiopian food was in DC, at Red Sea in Adams Morgan as a matter of fact (where we managed to run into Manute Bol (spelling?) the 7 foot plus basketball player and he sat down at our table!!!). Also some of the best Vietnamese I have ever had was in Georgetown. There was also a top flight mexican place in Adams Morgan called Carmelitas with killer mole but I dont know if it is still there. And of course Obrien's Pit Barbeque. DC does -not- deserve worst chowhound city status. It is anything but. Wed Aug 30 17:05:50 -0700 2000 1536560 0 Jason Perlow 8 1536565 O'Brien's is great! Unfortunately (for me, at least), I think they only operate the original Rockville location these days. I don't get up there very often. I used to go to the Springfield location. It was so wonderful to walk in and breathe in that wonderful smell. Wed Aug 30 18:20:16 -0700 2000 1536561 0 Jim Dorsch 5 1536604 I'm not the most well-travelled person in the world, but of the major cities I personally know, I would agree that DC is the worst for chowhounding, and that this is compounded by some of the things that make DC a difficult place to live. Living in DC, I found it very difficult to find an AFFORDABLE good place to eat, let alone on a student/young person's budget. My friends at American University mourned the lack of good Chinese food and pizza. Most of the restaraunts downtown are geared towards businesspeople and tourists, and often, even when I splurged, I was disappointed. And the small takeaway shops that litter DC often produced inferior food than what I was used to in other diner/takeaway shops further north. In contrast, I find good chowhounding destinations have lots of food choices across all price ranges. There is a distinct absence of good local specialties--DC has no long-standing local culinary tradition, no folkloric rivalries of Who Has The Best X. It is a food culture lacuna. And sampling the different versions of a local speciality is a standard chowhound pleasure. There also seem to be some problems with food distribution in DC. When I lived there, just grocery shopping was a challenge, let alone finding quality ingredients. Eventually, some friends there introduced me to some local treasures (Persian, grilled Peruvian (?) chicken). But these all involved endless drives on the endless Beltway, which I never enjoy. And none of these finds were in DC itself, but in its Maryland or Virginia suburbs that have gathered ethnic enclaves. So, cheap good food is hard to find downtown and involves lots of travel in the suburbs; there's no distinctive local speciality; and unusual ingredients are hard to come by. Maybe DC isn't the worst city in the world for chowhounding (which is probably McMurdo Base, Antarctica), but these things make it a very challenging place to chowhound. Some boring perspective: I spent two summers there and had SOs/many friends in the area, so I spent a good chunk of time there in my day. Sun Sep 03 18:50:40 -0700 2000 1536514 0 Emily Cotlier 6 1536606 Idunno...I'm starting to wonder if DC chowhounds are all that dedicated! Every trip I've ever made down there I've found great stuff. And this is kind of telling: three months ago I raved about a place called the Hitching Post (see link), and not a single person has checked it out yet. It's not possible that someone went and didn't report back...it's too good, people would have been inspired to rapturous prose! So could it be that the hounds down there aren't quite as dogged? ciao Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/164535#879348 Sun Sep 03 22:17:33 -0700 2000 1536604 0 Jim Leff 7 1536611 It's true that many DC residents have no roots in the area. Take me, for example. I can't help but think that people from elsewhere dominate DC these days. There are so many people who came here to work for the government, and more who came to work in the booming high-tech corridor in VA. It makes sense that soul food would be one of the traditions that goes way back in DC. Southern food would also be logical; DC used to be quite the center for C&W music. Mon Sep 04 08:11:15 -0700 2000 1536606 0 Jim Dorsch 8 1536639 Remember the scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams tells the class to rip out the boring, technical introduction to the poetry text? I happen to be a big fan of J. Evans Pritchard and company, so here is my quasi-scientific approach to this discussion. The following are important characteristics of chowhoundy places: 1. Great chowhound cities have a way of cultivating chowhound appetites. Someone from America who moves to San Francisco or New York will soon find that food is the most important item on the agenda. If you can't drop restaurant names, you don't get promoted at work. Your boy/girlfriend will break up with you for suggesting bad restaurants. 2. Great chowhound cities have a history of immigration. It is difficult to set up a Chinese restaurant without an established Chinese ingredient distribution system. The Chinese in Idaho are perfectly capable of making chow fun. But they'd have to make the noodles themselves. In New York, one can walk into a "Chinese restaurant store" and buy everything but the chef. They'll even help you find a location and teach you how to make Fried Chicken with P.F.R. 3. Chowhound cities have their own local traditions. Buffalo wings, Maryland Crabcakes, Italian Beef, Mission-Style Burritos, Barbeque, Bacon Egg and Cheese on a roll, Teriyaki, etc. New York, Chicago and San Francisco have all three. Cleveland has number 2. Los Angeles has 2 and 3, but a stronger 2 than anywhere else. Buffalo and Philadelphia have a strong number 3 and a medium, if waning, number 2. These categories can hypothetically be graded on a scale of A to F. So, New York gets a B+ in the first, an A+ in the second, and an A in the third. Chicago is C+/A-/A. Seattle is C-/C/D+. That's pretty bad. Minneapolis gets good grades: B+/B+/C+. Much of the south scores highly in categories 1 and 3, especially New Orleans. Washington, as I summize from these boards, scores C-/B/F. That F brings down the morale of the troops, and affects category number 1. Being a bad chowhound city is not the result of the "many recent arrivals" scenario. If a city scores high on any of the above three qualifications, it does not matter if there are large amounts of residents who have moved from somewhere else. They will adapt to the food culture of their new home, and the city will change to accommodate their wants and needs. Granted, this will lower the bar in their own neighborhoods (i.e. Georgetown, the Castro, Upper East Side, Lincoln Park) but it will not alter the culture of eating for the city at large. In their defense, these folks have their own immigrant cuisine and culture. They often bring with them excellent coffeehouses, health food stores, "gourmet shops", beer selections, and much more. They love to "fuse" one cuisine to another, with mixed results. But this demographic also drives up rents because they are perceived to be more desirable to live near and sell stuff to. So Mr. Local Chef is forced to close up shop, and Aux Bon Painful moves in. Many of the culturally-challenged never notice Mr. Local Chef, but they are known by demographers to patronize bad chain restaurants. Several times a week. At home and at work. So Downtown suffers as well. Meanwhile, every time Mr. Local Chef of the Past is displaced, Mr. Local Chef of the Future is opening up in a lower-rent area around Downtown and in more interesting and remote, or just plain downtrodden, parts of the city. The key is to just realize that cities are large, changing organisms, and that to successfully chowhound, one must know their WHOLE city, and be willing to travel their beltways, freeways, 7 trains, Green Lines, and Bart trains to get there. Some people even pack up and move to be closer to sacred chow. Remember, Baltimore (C+/B+/B-) is right around the corner :) -Chris Tue Sep 05 15:33:50 -0700 2000 1536611 0 Christopher Armstrong 9 1536644 Chris, I agree with your assessment in large part. On one point I don't think my previous post was precise. When I said everyone in DC is from somewhere else, I was thinking of the Americans who flock here to work for the government, the high-tech corridor, etc, and my thought was that those people come here and buy food, but they don't come here to open restaurants. Especially in recent years, we have had tremendous immigration to DC from all around the world, and as you say, that is good for chowhounds! Jim Tue Sep 05 16:32:16 -0700 2000 1536639 0 Jim Dorsch 10 1536685 As someone who has lived in D.C. for nearly 20 years, I can say that anyone who considers D.C. to be the worst chowhound city in the country probably falls into one of three categories: 1) tourists whose only sojourn from the immediate vicinity of their hotel is the area between the White House and the Capitol (they deserve the food court hell that they get); 2) yuppie wasp residents who buy into the image of D.C. as a scary city and are afraid to wander outside of Georgetown or the downtown area and who eventually move across the river to Virginia and are never heard of again in D.C. outside of working hours (these people also tend to think of fajitas as exotic food); 3) lobbyists, fat cats, and celebrity seekers who are too concerned with eating at "power restaurants" to roll up their sleeves and eat at a nondescript place with just plain good food (their idea of a daring restaurant choice is "Planet Hollywood"; If you love food, and you're willing to go anywhere to eat good food, D.C. is full of little treasures. Soul food is special here, and it doesn't get any better than the Florida Avenue Grill or Love's Restaurant (but both are in parts of town where most white folks wouldn't dare to tread -- but I'm white and I've never been treated with anything other than warm hospitality at either place, with waitresses who still call everyone "hon"). For the less timid, B. Smith's is a more upscale knockout. You want ribs, go to Rocklands (hardly any seating, mostly takout, no atmosphere, but mouthwatering, smokey ribs, and a vast array of spicy sauces). The Tune Inn is the best place for greasy cheeseburgers served with an attitude and a great jukebox (it was also the first bar in D.C. to get its liquor license back after prohibition was ended, which is also probably the last time the rest rooms were cleaned), while Cafe Delux is great for more upscale burger eaters. Hard Times Cafe has chili and fixins to die for. And I'll put half smokes and hot dogs from Ben's Chili Bowl up against New York's Nathan's, Atlanta's Varsity or any other frankfurter joint on the planet. I've long joked that you can pick any country that has had a war, famine or flood in the last 20 years and you'll find a damned good restaurant founded in D.C. by immigrants from that country. We've got wonderful Ethiopian food (Red Sea, Fasika's), Afghan food (Khyber Pass), Russian/Serbian food (the Serbian Crown), Vietnamese food (Saigon Gourmet), Peruvian food (Granja De Oro in Adams Morgan, for great Peruvian chicken without driving out of town), Middle Eastern food (Mama Ayesha's, Skewers, Lebanese Taverna), Spanish food (Taberna del Aberardo, Churerria Madrid, Jaleo), and an honest-to-god Chinatown with great restaurants where Chinese people actually eat (but hurry, because the development around the new MCI Center is probably going to crowd it out). I could go on about our French bistros and our steak houses, but I won't. Some of the places named above are fancy; most are not, but unless you're a particularly whiney yuppie, you won't come away disappointed with them. You may have to ask around or exert some effort to find them. I tend not to share them with too many people because D.C. is too damned crowded with whiney yuppie scum as it is, and it's nice to go where you can still eat with real people. So I'll let the jerkface who dissed our pretzels stay on the mall and eat from the street vendors. I know where the good stuff is, and I hope he stays the hell away from those places. Thu Sep 07 19:39:09 -0700 2000 1536644 0 damon_t 11 1536699 I'll be more than happy to second the latest opinion. The D.C. metro area is one of the biggest in the country. To base one's opinion on pretzels sold by clowns catering to school kids speaks for itself. The previous poster spoke quite eloquently for the city. Let me speak for one part of the close-in burbs. Within five miles of where I am now sitting in Falls Church VA (six miles from the White House) I can get authentic Afghani, Irani, Kurdish (!!!), Cambodian, Lao, Peruvian, Burmese, Turkish, Nicaraguan, and Bolivian food, not to mention Vietnamese, Thai, and Indian food from specific regions of the respective countries. I know I left some out. So the pizza and Chinese food stinks around here. We manage to get by. :>) Let me know when Baltimore gets a Kurdish restaurant. Fri Sep 08 10:59:44 -0700 2000 1536685 0 Bob W. 12 1536700 Wow. Could you post the addresses of some of these places (especially the Kurdish place) somewhere on the DC/Baltimore board? Fri Sep 08 11:56:27 -0700 2000 1536699 0 Seth Ditchik 9 1536660 Your theory has merit. But there are other factors to consider. Immigrants are now making foods of other immigrant groups (Grimaldi's, Lombardi's, Totonno's and John's best pizza makers are Mexicans) Many "Italian" restaurants are run by Albanians. Before that they were run by Greeks. Asians are running the "tortilla factories" in NYC. The best carne asada in all of California was for years made out of a Chinese deli in Bakersfield(I don't know if this is still true). This is blue collar fusion cooking. This is America. Also food stuffs that were once dismissed as aborrations are evolving and rising to a higher status in the chowhound world. I'm waiting for the day when someone will discuss the "Best Garlic Knots" on this message board. Another consideration is this: Chowhound and the Internet. Bear witness "Bo" a Korean restaurant with perfect example of your local chef from the past. While this board did not save her restaurant from it's demise, it kept it alive well past any savvy businessman's prediction. The problem DC has, is the problem most cities have. It's not the lack of good chow, it's the lack of the knowledge of good chow. This board seems to be the only place that seriously addresses that problem...oops, I gotta go to bed now, or I'll be grounded. Pete Wed Sep 06 00:46:18 -0700 2000 1536639 0 Pete Feliz 7 1536618 Hey, we're dedicated! I just suspect there aren't many of us out here attending to CH, that's all. Not much publicity or word-of-mouth in D.C. yet, and the D.C. Board accordingly has suffered from underuse/neglect. Some of us have, however, tried the Hitching Post, on your recommendation. I haven't commented on it only because the crab cakes I had there were so disappointing -- incredibly greasy and deep, deep fried, with no real upside. The couple who served me at lunch (I was the only customer there until at least 12:30) were utterly charming, and have been tending the place since the dawn of time. They also were flattered and somewhat shocked that they had received some "Internet" attention. Thus, I really wanted to be able to second your hosannas; but alas, no such luck. Nor did it seem to be the sort of place where the crabcakes would be any different the next time 'round: they were pre-formed, and the preparation consisted of dunking them for a good long while in a vat of oil. But don't fret; we're still out here willing to try any hidden gems discussed on Chowhound (e.g., Thai Square -- thanks for the rec!). Mon Sep 04 19:35:49 -0700 2000 1536606 0 Marty L. 8 1536625 Marty, please don't EVER refrain from posting contradictory opinions, even of my own cherished places! If we don't exchange views, there's no way to get balanced discussion and no way to track places that've gone downhill (as this place obviously has). As I wrote in the intro to my book, "a restaurant is an ever-changing, organic thing, and the only judgement that's guaranteed timely is the one you have of your own meal as you eat it." I included a "Guarantee of Dissatisfaction" in that book for this very reason. Good places recommended by good people WILL sometimes disappoint. They go downhill, chefs leave, recipes change, entropy sets in. A restaurant is not like a movie, where all audiences share the same experience. The report from you and Jim was invaluable. I now know to stop recommending it to people (thanks!), and those reading along won't waste time and energy flocking to Hitching Post...and that's really important! In any case, my intuition is that the fried chicken's still real good. worth a try. if you guys don't, I will. And if it's not, we'll all just have to find better. The challenge is never-ending. ciao Tue Sep 05 01:14:14 -0700 2000 1536618 0 Jim Leff 9 1536629 Jim, Let me know when you are back in DC and I will be happy to accompany you back to the Hitching Post to evaluate the status of the fried chicken.....maybe we can even stop by Full Kee. Jim Zurer Washington DC Tue Sep 05 08:31:05 -0700 2000 1536625 0 Jim Zurer 7 1536619 Re: The Hitching Post I am positive that I posted a note describing our experience at the Hitching Post but it seems to have gotten lost in cyberspace. We also were quite disappointed in the crab cake....undeniably huge, but hard packed, over-fried, full of crab shreds, with no lump meat at all, and seasoned with a type of tartar sauce. Not an ethereal experience... The restaurant itself was an interesting neighborhood bar and the vegetables were nicely handled; however, I suspect that there have been some changes in crab preparations since your visit. Jim Zurer Washington DC Mon Sep 04 19:45:41 -0700 2000 1536606 0 Jim Zurer 8 1536624 Jim--nope, I have a record of every message ever posted, and there's never been a Hitching Post report from you recorded. What I suspect happened is that you composed your message, but got distracted and never hit the final "ok, post the message" button after being shown the confirmation window. Happens sometimes. The time I was there (about 1 1/2 years ago), it was almost entirely lump crab meat and CERTAINLY no tartar sauce flavoring. Argh. It was fried quite crisp, though...and I like it like that. Did you try the fried chicken? that was just as good, at least when I was there. Might be worth a return to check. Hard to imagine that they'd change the chicken recipe. sorry for the dead-end, but stuff does change. glad we can at least compare notes. Tue Sep 05 01:07:13 -0700 2000 1536619 0 Jim Leff 4 1536539 If I had to pick America's Worst Chowhound City, I'd vote for Rapid City, SD. The brouchure we got from the Chamber of Commerce was a scream. Under Italian restaurants it listed two places: Pizza Hut and Domino's. Under Mexican it had, you guessed it, Taco Bell. This is not intended as a diss of Rapid City or South Dakota. In fact, I think it's a great place. I just wouldn't make a special trip for the food. Wed Aug 30 01:34:11 -0700 2000 1536504 0 Joe O'Brien 5 1536553 Actually, there's a great microbrewery/restaurant in Rapids City. Fantastic Buffalo steaks and a black bread made from their stout beer that was outstanding. great beers too, as I recall... Wed Aug 30 14:19:30 -0700 2000 1536539 0 matthew 6 1536554 Matthew, might it have been Cedar Rapids? Looking at my brewery directory, I see Cedar Brewing Co in Cedar Rapids, but nothing in Rapids City. Of course, things change, and directories aren't always 100% accurate. "Actually, there's a great microbrewery/restaurant in Rapids City. Fantastic Buffalo steaks and a black bread made from their stout beer that was outstanding. great beers too, as I recall..." Wed Aug 30 15:18:33 -0700 2000 1536553 0 Jim Dorsch 7 1536563 Definitely Rapids City. found this. also a coupla good coffe places in town. Link: http://www.hbd.org/hogtown/news/9906/firehouse.html Wed Aug 30 17:56:53 -0700 2000 1536554 0 matthew 8 1536564 Matthew, I spaced on this one! For some reason I was thinking of Iowa! Wed Aug 30 18:17:30 -0700 2000 1536563 0 Jim Dorsch 9 1536570 OK, maybe I was too harsh. I didn't mean to suggest that you can't find good food in Rapid City. For fry bread and buffalo steak, you probably couldn't do any better than RC. I'm sure there are other cities in the US that don't have these culinary advantages. Any other suggestions for worst city? Wed Aug 30 19:36:07 -0700 2000 1536564 0 Joe O'Brien 3 1536511 Tom, Somehow I don't think DC residents would miss you if you didn't return. And BTW, there is more than one museum. It's a big place; perhaps you missed the others. But seriously, I think you'd dine better if you left Georgetown and headed up to Adams Morgan, or over to Arlington, where all manner of ethnic restaurants abound. And you'd save some money, too. You have to know where to look. To jaunt down K Street, then check out a pretzel stand and decide the food is overpriced or no good is to overlook almost all of a large metropolitan area. Jim Sun Aug 27 09:05:25 -0700 2000 1536500 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1536620 Okay...this thread seems to have incited a lot of hyperbole. But as a resident of DC for the last 32 years, I would say that it is certainly not the worst "Chowhound" city in the US and it is certainly not the best.... There are, if you look for them, a great number of rewarding Chowhound experiences, but they are not as plentiful as those our NY compatriots take for granted. DC has some good places for southern cooking, the most extensive range of Ethiopian cooking in the country, some fine barbecue (if you venture out to Charles County, about 30 miles to the south and east), a concentration of Vietnamese (and other Asian cuisines) in the Virginia suburbs, great bread from Marvelous Market (and its successors), some excellent kebab places (like the ubiquitous Moby Dick), and of course, lots of local seafood specialties from the Chesapeake Bay (hardshell crabs, etc.) There are also many fine up scale restaurants--like Kinkead's, Bis, etc. What DC lacks is the strata and critical mass of joints, holes in the wall, dives--mostly ethnic and mostly cheap--that result from a long tradition of immigration in larger cities. I still buy my parmesan cheese in NY and search out killer pizza in the five boroughs--but I now bring bagels with me (from the one superior bagel supplier in DC--Georgetown Bagelry) when I visit my relatives in NYC. DC is getting better and I haven't run out of places to eat yet...but nothing matches the excitement of chowhounding in NY or San Francisco. We do have other charms here however......but that is for another post. Jim Zurer Washington DC Mon Sep 04 20:03:04 -0700 2000 1536497 0 Jim Zurer 3 1536621 I wonder if the DC scene suffers somehow because so many residents are from somewhere else. Mon Sep 04 20:47:24 -0700 2000 1536620 0 Jim Dorsch 2 1536679 The restaurants in DC generally are designed for lobbyists and tourists. Unlike other cities most of the population does not live in the worst run city in the us. So there are pocket neighborhoods but most restaurants are for people from out of town. The food quality or innovation is not as important as the setting (hence all the steakhouses)and ambienence. So its not fair to compare to cities that have actual population. Thu Sep 07 09:50:30 -0700 2000 1536497 0 Andrew Schneider 3 1536708 When the attacks were simply on the quality of food, I could hold my tongue. Your post is ludicrous. Washington DC's population numbers somewhere around 600,000. The number of people who work there numbers somewhere around 4 million. There are plenty of restaurants that cater to tourists, just like in Rome, Amsterdam, and San Francisco. But there are plenty of other sources for meals - Not as many as Rome or San Francisco, but about the same as Amsterdam. I would say there are a dozen or so standout top-ends, and a fair number of places like Full Kee, the Market Lunch (I hope it's still there!), and Pizza Paradisio, where an excellent meal can be had for a reasonable price. Is it the worst-run city in the country? Could be. Probably not. Your post added nothing to the discussion. If you want to post rants about DC, do it on "Not About Food." MZ Fri Sep 08 15:03:49 -0700 2000 1536679 0 Mike Zurer 2 1536719 Having read all the posts, allow me to revise my original: Dee Cee is certainly not America's *worst* chowhound city (Hartford comes to mind), but it's up there. On the other hand, Jim Zurer (full disclosure: we've never met, talked, or have otherwise had anything to do with one another; I hear that "Full Kee" is now calling itself "Full Zurer") points out that the metro Washington area has by *far* the best Vietnamese food in the nation (pace Westminster CA; New York, fuggedabodd!), especially at the Eden Center, where the Seven Course Beef dinner at any of 5 jernts is fantastic. Pizzeria Paradiso (21 and P) stacks up to any "gourmet" NYC place, and worth the wait -- except on weekends, when it hits nearly 2 hours. The Greek Place on 19th btwn M and L, where Kosta serves up souvlaki to die for (always mixes up the burnt ends with the tenderey insides) and not too shabby a Mediterranean tuna salad, either (chunk lite/solid white mix, with black and green olives, red pepper, lemon juice/olive oil, and feta). And lots to avoid, of course; homesick Brooklynites at Krupin's, still hoping that Mel might (finally) serve tongue (every time I've been, "we're just out" - uh huh); the chains, the chains! (e.g., Capitol Grille, where tipsy Republicans get laid); faux cafeteria nostalgia (Scholl's never served anything fresh, you know); City Lights of China (booooorrrrrinnnnngggg; try Wheaton for dim sum); and any place recommended by the late, unlamented Phyllis ("Hello??? I'm here and I demand that you serve me, you wretch") Richman of the Post, who did more to ruin food in this town than anyone since Bill "Bathtub" Taft. What we need are more chowhounds. Sat Sep 09 02:17:47 -0700 2000 1536497 0 John 1 1536680 Nashville, TN is my favorite city to eat in. It has the best shakes (Elliston Place Soda Shop), the best burger (Rotier's), and two of the best places to eat them--the Vanderbilt campus and Centennial Park. Thu Sep 07 10:23:57 -0700 2000 1536231 0 Mike Rolfe