286441 Thu Jul 13 13:11:20 -0700 2000 10 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1535904 I read the yesterday's NY Times Dining section article by Wm. Grimes about Alain Ducasse's new restaurant in the Essex House. It whole description kind of horrified me. Could someone explain the allure of such a pretentious, overpriced experience? Thanks for any enlightenment you can offer me. cz Thu Jul 13 13:11:20 -0700 2000 0 christina z 1 1535906 I agree completely - the refinements and elegances of classic french service are already foreign to our more casual modern culture, though admittedly they are very pleasing when well carried out. The additional flourishes, the intellectual pretense layered over this by Ducasse sounds quite ridiculous, almost insanely overdone. And what does any of this have to do with the deliciousness of the food anyway? Thu Jul 13 13:49:03 -0700 2000 1535904 0 jen kalb 2 1535917 I have not been to Mr. Ducasse's NY restaurant and thus cannot comment directly on it, however, I have had the pleasure of dining at his Parisian namesake restaurant on two occasions. These were truly among the best restaurant meals I have ever had. A three to four hour meal that passes in a moment, perfectly flawless service, some of the most outstanding food you will ever taste, from classical to creative. What some might call pretense is what is common in many of France's finer restaurants and it does not seem pretentious or overdone given the proper setting and execution. Hopefully this is the case in the NY Ducasse. Is it expensive - absolutely! However, after reading the horror stories on this message board of New York's "finest" (waitng an hour for a previously reserved table at Bouley, glorified dog food at Le Cirque and all the other disasters which have been reported/experienced), maybe it is worth a few more dollars for your own table for the entire evening and to be served spectacular food by real professionals... (BTW- S.Shaw also reviewed this restaurant) Fri Jul 14 09:33:03 -0700 2000 1535906 0 brad 3 1535928 If the food were indeed spectacular, I would gladly put up with the expense and pretension. So far reports on Ducasse's New York place have been mixed. (And I missed the "glorified dog food at Le Cirque" thread. I'll have to search for it...) --Adam Sat Jul 15 11:31:51 -0700 2000 1535917 0 Adam Stephanides 3 1535929 For what it's worth, the same kind of thing is true in France. A meal in a great restaurant can be exciting and worth the tab, or "the sense of sad obligation" prevails. for us, unfortunately, the latter has been the case most often. I think that, for the most part, the food is at the heart of the problem. For me, Charlie Trotter's in Chicago is a good (American) example. For all the expense and artifice, the food is almost tasteless. On the other hand, we had a great meal at a starred place in the French boondocks where i got an additional exqusite comp appetizer merely because i enjoyed the first one--and mentioned it to the (friendly, enthusiastic) waiter. If the food is great, the staff is happy and everything else works. Sat Jul 15 11:37:16 -0700 2000 1535917 0 Clifford Abrams 1 1535925 Well, with these expensive fine restaraunts, it depends. I'll describe two of them and the difference. Bear in mind that both of these are completely relative. Restaraunt #1: Le Bec-Fin, Philadelphia, maximum Zagat Survey stars, byword in the region for the finest classic cuisine and service. Occasion; finishing graduate school. Meal: Lunch, which required a reservation for the seating. Ate: I honestly don't remember except for my main dish of boar and pureed potatoes. Did I Enjoy It? Not hugely. I felt both intimidated and bored by the restaraunt; the omnipresent service was nervewracking; I felt I had to restrain my manners and not eat with gusto even with the delicious desserts (which was why I wanted to go there, after a friend of mine raved); but what really threw me off were my fellow diners. None of them seemed to be really ENJOYING themselves. There was a sense of sad obligation; the table next to us was occupied by a clearly wealthy, clearly unhappy family. Other tables held wealthy, skinny old women, groups of businessmen...I left after three courses, glad to be out in the sunshine, with a strong hankering for Jamaican food. Restaraunt #2: Pluson, in Auckland. Occasion: My birthday. Meal: Dinner. Ate: A small starter salad unique to the house. Salad of frisee-feta cheese wrapped in bacon and grilled-citrusy dressing-strips of a special breed of papaya from the Cook Islands. A poussin simmered in delicate chili sauce with the only scalloped potatoes I ever liked, kumara puree, and zucchini. In a fit of conscience I had the fruit plate for dessert and was envious of my husband's honey ice cream terrine. Obviously, from my recall of the menu, I had a different experience. This time, all the trappings of high culinaria were delightful toys. I squeaked with delight at a silver finger bowl, at dessert forks. The excellent service seemed like a compliment. The food made me rave. And the other dinners, too, were buoyantly happy, laughing and chattering loudly (in NZ people tend to have parties at restaraunts), even popping upstairs to put on the dress-up clothes provided by the hostess, the men universally choosing drag. It was the best food with a Rabelasian sense of good living. Also, too, I felt glad to have discovered the place myself--no review or byword had drawn me there... So, for me, that defines the difference between enjoying and not enjoying a fancy restaraunt. Sat Jul 15 01:30:01 -0700 2000 1535904 0 Emily Cotlier 2 1535926 great post! we once talked about something like this before on the manhattan board and i'm appending the url of that discussion at the bottom. "..but what really threw me off were my fellow diners. None of them seemed to be really ENJOYING themselves. There was a sense of sad obligation.." the phrase 'sense of sad obligation' captures in a very elegant way the ambiance i find so objectionable .... Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/189011#1009242 Sat Jul 15 11:20:23 -0700 2000 1535925 0 howler 2 1535930 Emily, I understand what your are getting at exactly! Once on a trip to France we were driving around Burgundy (to satisfy my wine geekishness) and realized it was fast approaching 2 p.m. and we had not eaten. Without any idea where to go (we were on the RN74 just north of Nuits St. Georges) we grumpilly pulled into the first place, which had the look of a tarted-up gas station. What we had was the special of the day: a simple but perfectly roasted chicken with some peas with lardon, and some simple village wines. All served on a sunny patio in a friendly and casual atmosphere. Years later this chicken serves as a calibration for what all chickens should be. And strangely enough, both my friend and I found this to be one of the most enjoyable food experiences of the whole trip. Cheers, Joe Moryl Sat Jul 15 12:20:28 -0700 2000 1535925 0 Joe Moryl (NY/NJ) 1 1892737 What's is there 'to get'?? It's a sensational restaurant where one is surrounded by beautiful things and fabulous food and wine. I don't do this sort of thing every week, but once in a while I treat myself, we all don't we? I don't find that pretentious. Overpriced, yes quite possibly, but as I said, it's good to blow out and large it sometimes. Thu Sep 21 18:54:54 -0700 2006 1535904 14070 teddy 1 1893169 This thread is 6 years old. ADNY did last almost 6 years in such a format but it appears NYC doesn't want to support such a formal offering from AD: Eater reports that "The Ducasse empire will relocate and rethink their New York flagship. On a to-be-determined time line, the Essex House restaurant will close and two new Ducasse venues will open elsewhere, in the same physical location. One is to be a dressed down, updated ADNY, perhaps along the lines of what Robuchon and Ramsay are up to. The other is to be Ducasse's take on a cafe." Thu Sep 21 20:57:47 -0700 2006 1535904 24925 chow_gal 2 1893489 I prefer formal, the more formal the better. Give me platoons of headwaiters dressed to the nines -- nay, the tens or twelves -- in gleaming monkey suits, serenely gliding through the room like flocks of penguins. But it has to be backed up by the food. Otherwise it's an elegant temple to a false god. Now I've never eaten at Ducasse, but my understanding is that there it wasn't. Ducasse lived in New York 40 years ago and hasn't lived here since. Back then, the best restaurants served canned vegetables. So he understandably thought, "Philistines! Wow them with sizzle, skimp on the steak." Oh I remember when Ducasse opened. New York was in a frenzy, want0ng a new deity to worship. And then they tasted the food. Thu Sep 21 22:42:57 -0700 2006 1893169 11362 Brian S