284943 Tue May 02 15:24:42 -0700 2006 14 31 Home Cooking 0 1524702 What do you look for in recipes for both pastry cream and Genoise? I'm trying to make an exceptional princess cake for a very sick friend, and I'm having trouble finding good recipes for the foundation of the cake. Pastry Cream: 1 1/2 cups half-and-half 6 tablespoons cornstarch 1/2 cup sugar 1/2 cup water 4 large egg yolks, at room temperature 1 teaspoon vanilla extract This seemed like way too much cornstarch, but I was pressed for time so I charged ahead with this recipe. The end result wasn't up to snuff, and tasted a bit starchy. Do some use gelatin to thicken a pastry cream? Genoise: 5 large eggs 1/3 cup granulated sugar 2 tablespoons unsalted butter 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 1 cup cake flour, sifted I liked how my warmed but not cooked eggs tripled in volume when I beat them with sugar, and I didn't lose much volume when I sifted in the flour, but the final texture was tough. Do any experts out there recommend a slightly different Genoise recipe? Is it possible to over beat the warm egg/sugar mixture the way you can over beat egg whites? (I heated the eggs and sugar to 123 F in a double boiler while stirring constantly; the recipe said to stir with your hand until "very hot" which was a bit too imprecise for my pastry making tastes) Link: http://home.ivillage.com/cooking/recipes/display/0,,s2vq,00.html Tue May 02 15:24:42 -0700 2006 0 Steve G 1 1524706 This recipe looks about right to me: 1 1/4 cups (300 ml) milk 1/2 vanilla bean, split lengthwise 3 large egg yolks 1/4 cup (50 grams) granulated white sugar 1/8 cup (20 grams) all-purpose flour Scant 3 tablespoons (20 grams) cornstarch Yours seems to be very heavy on the cornstarch. I also find the use of half and half plus water weird - why not just use milk? Gelatin is not traditionally used to thicken pastry cream; pastry cream lightened with a bit of whipped cream then stabilized with gelation is chiffon. Make sure you cook your cream long enough. (We used to say at the bakery, it wasn't done until a corner started to catch.) If the starch isn't cooked, you'll taste it. Re: Genoise. Yes, you can overbeat the eggs, if you're using a mixer on high. You want to watch a point on the side of the bowl. Keep beating as the egg mixture keeps being thrown higher and higher against the side. Once the mixture isn't getting any higher, stop. The traditional test, which is nice and romantic and fun, is to write Paris in the mixture with your finger in script. By the time you hit the s, the P should have just begun to disappear. Be very gentle adding the flour - don't use the mixer for this. You will lose more volume if you use the butter, but the cake will be a touch more tender and will definitely roll better if you are using it for a roulade. I don't have a genoise recipe with me, but yours looks about right Link: http://seasonalcook.blogspot.com Tue May 02 15:50:07 -0700 2006 1524702 0 curiousbaker 2 1524710 Agreed. Paricularly about adding the flour gently and without the machine. IMO, overmixing is the main culprit in a tough baked good. Tue May 02 16:06:58 -0700 2006 1524706 0 Aaron 3 1524718 Also, the butter. I've never actually heard of making genoise without butter (it seems blasphemy to me), but if you use it, it should be melted, cooled, and folded in gently alternating with the flour. It sounds like the OP may have beaten each in with the mixer, which could easily result in the structure giving way before it sets up in the oven even if it looks OK right after mixing. Tue May 02 16:35:50 -0700 2006 1524710 0 MikeG 4 1524764 I only used the mixer on the eggs+sugar; I folded in the cake flour in 5 additions, sifting it over the surface each time. I took a cup of my flour, eggs, and sugar mixture out and mixed it well with the melted butter, losing some volume but lightening up the butter so it would mix in. The volume of my final product was good after baking, so I didn't have any problems with collapsing; it was just on the tough side. Perhaps the cooking time was just way off for something starting with a warm batter. The first batch was already burned when I checked 2 minutes before the recommended cooking time and I had to start over. I have a trusty thermometer in my oven that read the suggested 350 F--is that too hot for Genoise? Tue May 02 18:44:41 -0700 2006 1524718 0 Steve G 5 1524791 Hmm, at this point I'm out of suggestions. Meta alludes to a good point though. How many times have you made it before? It's definitely a cake that takes some experience to get comfortable with and unless you make them a _lot_ (I suppose, I don't), you're at the mercy of the kitchen gods to some extent - sometimes they just don't come out quite as good as you expected/hoped. Tue May 02 21:41:23 -0700 2006 1524764 0 MikeG 1 1524741 I recommend the pastry cream from Mastering the Art of French Pastry by Bugat and Healy (which unfortunately I think is out of print). I recommend the genoise from Rose Levy Beranbaum's Cake Bible. Tue May 02 17:34:26 -0700 2006 1524702 0 Timowitz 1 1524788 A good Genoise is such a magical thing, so I encourage you to keep trying. There may be a couple of things happening with your Genoise that may be making it tough. First, I would recommend adding the flour in 2 parts rather than 5. That will help keep you from overmixing, which develops the gluten and contributes to a tough texture. I also think your recipe may not have enough sugar, which acts as a tenderizer in cakes. Here is my recipe from pastry school. It's a staple. Basic Genoise 4 eggs 2/3 C sugar (4 1/2 oz) 3/4 C cake flour (3 1/2 oz) 2 oz (4 T) butter 1/2 t vanilla (or grated zest or almond extract) I just combine the eggs and sugar in the mixer bowl and set over simmering water. I stir it slowly with my hand until it feels very warm to the touch and the sugar is dissolved. This takes just a few minutes. Then just whisk at high speed until light and tripled in volume and the ribbon holds when you write your initial. It's almost impossible to overbeat it. Then gently fold in the flour in 2 parts. Set aside about a cup and fold melted butter into that. Then fold all together and place immediately in oven. Bake @ 350 for 20 to 30 minutes. The cake is done when it springs back when lightly touched with your fingertip. Immediately run a knife around the sides of the pan to loosen the cake, and turn it out to cool. As for your pastry cream, water shouldn't be an ingredient in pastry cream. Here is one I make all the time: Pastry Cream 2 C milk 1/2 C sugar 6 egg yolks (100 g) 2 T cornstarch 2 T flour 1 t flavoring or zest 2 oz butter Warm milk in saucepan until steam begins to rise. While you're waiting for the milk to come up, whisk yolks and sugar in a bowl until a pale yellow color. Temper some of the hot milk into the yolks, beating to prevent eggs from cooking too quickly. Add remaining milk and combine thoroughly. Place this mixture back into the saucepan and cook over medium heat until mixture comes to a boil. Boil just until it starts to thicken. You just want to cook out the cornstarch and flour. Remove and add vanilla and butter. For the best texture, add the butter when the cream has cooled to 140 degrees. Place some plastic wrap on the surface and cool. Chill. Hope this helps. Tue May 02 21:25:53 -0700 2006 1524702 0 Meta 2 1524789 Oops, about the pastry cream.....forgot to say, combine the flour and cornstarch and whisk into the yolk/sugar mixture before adding the milk. Sorry! Tue May 02 21:32:42 -0700 2006 1524788 0 Meta 2 1524790 Oops, about the pastry cream.....forgot to say, combine the flour and cornstarch and whisk into the yolk/sugar mixture before adding the milk. Sorry! Tue May 02 21:32:42 -0700 2006 1524788 0 Meta 2 1524907 Thanks so much! I didn't know sugar acts as a tenderizer in cakes, so hopefully your recipe with fewer flour additions will do the trick. One last question: you say, "I stir it slowly with my hand until it feels very warm to the touch and the sugar is dissolved." The engineer in me wants to know what very warm is to you. Do you have asbestos hands? Would very warm be 120 F, 140 F, or higher? I used my digital instant read to heat it while whisking to 123 F, which seemed to be just on the edge of starting to cook the eggs at the edges of the double boiler. Thanks also for the pastry cream recipe--the versions I'm getting here look like they'll make a much better product. They also use more common ingredients (no half and half) so I can test run the pastry cream by itself. Wed May 03 14:48:09 -0700 2006 1524788 0 Steve G 3 1524972 You're really just trying to dissolve the sugar. Place your hand in the mixture and If you rub your fingers together, the mixture should no longer feel gritty from the sugar, but very warm and, well, gooey . You definitely are going way too far if you see the eggs starting to coagulate around the edges. I usually pull the bowl off the bain for a few seconds if I think the eggs are getting too hot before the sugar has had a chance to dissolve. When you work in pastry for a living, you do develop a tolerance for heat, but I would say that it's very warm, not super hot, to the touch. I'm a former student of logic, so I understand the desire for precision. But go with your gut and see what happens. I hope you enjoy! Wed May 03 22:38:45 -0700 2006 1524907 0 Meta 3 1524973 Just FYI - in baking, sugar acts as a sweetener, tenderizer, browning agent, and preservative. Keep this in mind when studying recipes or if you are ever tempted to amend recipes. Wed May 03 22:43:05 -0700 2006 1524907 0 meta 2 1525125 Thank you so much! I just test ran your pastry cream recipe, and even dividing it by 1/3 (I only had 2 eggs), my rough measurements produced a beautiful pastry cream without any starchy taste and a wonderful flavor. Even when quite warm this is a very stiff pastry cream, which I think will be just right for a princess cake. I used a touch of blood orange zest with a drop of almost extract; perfect. Fri May 05 01:30:09 -0700 2006 1524788 0 Steve G 1 1524874 a year or two ago i made that exact recipe you linked us to... princess cake is my ALL TIME FAVORITE cake and i wanted to recreate what i've eaten in danish bakeries. that recipe is just not good. take the advice from the posters below and it will turn out much better. yum! Wed May 03 12:24:42 -0700 2006 1524702 0 junglekitte