28233 Mon Mar 08 20:38:44 -0800 2004 22 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 117700 From some of the latest posts sounds like Sonoma might be a better bet than Napa. for both winetasting and restaurants which would be a better choice if you can only spend one full day in either? Thank you- Mon Mar 08 20:38:44 -0800 2004 0 scott 1 117703 don't mean to be flippant, but your ? is too broad. Mon Mar 08 20:52:18 -0800 2004 117700 0 ed 1 117708 You're doing something on this board that many do...and it confuses us. I think you mean "Napa Valley" and "Sonoma Valley". A much wider area than the two small cities. If you have only one day, I wouldn't limit it to one of the two towns. Mon Mar 08 21:26:50 -0800 2004 117700 0 Jim H. 1 117710 I assume you mean the counties, and I have spent summers in each. During peak tourist season Napa becomes like the Hamptons in New York: overcrowded, hard-to-get reservations, people casually elegant. For one day, you'd spend much of it in traffic/waiting. In off season, Napa has MUCH better restaurants. But Sonoma has some decent ones too. Sorry I can't help on wineries. Mon Mar 08 22:42:20 -0800 2004 117700 0 goingoutagain 1 117738 While I agree that your question is perhaps a bit too general, not to mention opens the proverbial "can of worms" when it comes to personal preference, I knew what you were getting at. There are plenty of posts that you can search on to find wineries and restaurants in both areas that will please you, so I won't go into detail on specific stops. The best way to describe the two areas is that Sonoma Valley is generally thought of a as a bit more laid back and personable than Napa Valley. Napa is seen as a bit more sophisticated and high brow. Things and people that fuel this notion include more celebrities and international involvement in the wineries, restaurants and businesses. Napa tends to do things on a grander scale in terms of architecture. It is not uncommon to see entire chateaux and villas that are brought over and reconstructed in the Napa region. Wineries range from small quaint converted barns to castles, pyramids and shrines. World famous chefs and shops somehow manage to find themselves a spot in various parts of Napa Valley. Sonoma certainly has its fair share of luxury spas and eateries, but the more ostentacious buildings tend to be a bit more out of place in Sonoma. Even its festivals, such as the superlative Cinema Epicuria/Sonoma Valley Film Festival are casual and comfortable gatherings where celebrities and famous filmakers easily mingle with winemakers, farmers and "plain folks." You'll find less people touring the Sonoma Valley in limosines and tour buses. You'll be more apt to happen upon impromptu tours, barrel tastings and "behind the scenes" activities at Sonoma wineries. Geographically, both are lovely to spend the day exploring, but the congestion in Napa Valley can be quite trying to say the least. Highway 29 is really only a highway in name. In reality, it is a two lane road that bears more visitors each year than Disneyland (trivia bonus). There are backroads and out of the way areas to see, although the Silverado Trail isn't all that much better traffic wise. Sonoma can be accessed from a couple of different major freeways and is therefore a bit easier to navigate, although Highway 12/121 can be a bear in certain spots. Well, that's sort of my "30,000 foot" fly over of the regions. Both are spectacular and as a native of San Francisco and Northern California, I can't say that I have a favorite between the two. It's more of a Burgundy versus Bordeaux scenario for me. It all depends on the mood and occasion. The best advice I can give you is the same that I offer to people going winetasting. Don't be too ambitious. It is not possible to see either Napa Valley or Sonoma Valley all in one day and truly appreciate it. If you are a wine enthusiast, select one or two AVA's and then pick three or four wineries therein that you'd like to visit. Contact them ahead of time to see if they are having any special events or to arrange personal library tastings or tours. Pick a good place to have a nice hearty breakfast or brunch and a great place for dinner. Again call ahead for reservations. Summer or Winter, the best restaurants are often hard to get into on a moment's notice. Map out your route, but don't be too afraid of taking a detour. Follow your nose and these guidelines and you'll have a great time in either Sonoma Valley or Napa Valley. a sante, Curtis Tue Mar 09 02:23:21 -0800 2004 117700 0 Curtis 1 117761 I almost always pick Sonoma over Napa. Curtis made some very good points. I'll add a few thoughts to his... I find that Napa wineries tend to charge more for tasting and seem to have a more limited range of wines. Chardonnay, merlot, cabernet; chardonnay, merlot, cabernet; over and over. There are exceptions of course. But I find it's much easier to try a wide variety of grapes and styles in Sonoma, in fact you'd have to work really hard not to. Napa probably does have the upper hand in the hit parade of restaurants -- there are some mighty fine ones there. But there are plenty of good choices for one day in Somona County. There's a recent thread a little ways down on some of the best options. Lastly, if you do choose Sonoma, I think you still have to make a choice as there are two areas and I don't recommend trying to cover both in one day. There's Sonoma Valley (Cline, Arrowood, and Domaine Carneros are some favorites) and there's the Russian River/Dry Creek/Alexander Valley (the land of arguably California's best Pinot Noirs and Zinfandels) areas. I think the latter area has more restaurant choices, concentrated in Santa Rosa and Healdsburg. -Nick Tue Mar 09 11:33:11 -0800 2004 117700 0 nja 2 117775 just another thought for a lovely Pinot to taste, please don't miss Schug Winery on your tour. Link: http://www.schugwinery.com/winery.htm Tue Mar 09 12:57:59 -0800 2004 117761 0 Cynthia 2 117791 Good points, Nick. If you visit the Carneros region you can have the best of both: a wide choice of wineries, including some very fancy wineries (Domaine Carneros and Artesa), and a choice of either the town of Sonoma or the southern Napa Valley (Napa, Yountville) for dining, etc. Carneros is famous for it's pinot noirs. Tue Mar 09 14:17:45 -0800 2004 117761 0 Ruth Lafler 1 117768 I wouldn't overlook the wine-tasting needs of the original poster. If one is looking for some of the best Cabernet in the world (allright, outside of Bordeaux), then arguably he/she should head to Napa. For Zinfandel and Pinot, then my preference is Sonoma. As for restaurants, again nothwithstanding what the poster wants, the establishments that are near, or at, world-class status are definitely in Napa. Although, and without a doubt, very good wine country dining establishments are also very much present in Sonoma. Tue Mar 09 12:06:36 -0800 2004 117700 0 rcc 2 117769 Bear in mind that the French Laundry is closed now. Maybe Terra deserves some special recognition or perhaps Martini House on a good day. But other than those three, which other Napa Valley establishments do you consider to be near, or at, world-class status presumably above and beyond what can be found in Sonoma County these days? Tue Mar 09 12:18:00 -0800 2004 117768 0 Melanie Wong 3 117772 Actually, I was only counting two - FL and Terra. I've never been to Martini House. JMHO, and I know it's not a lot, but, 2 out of whatever in Napa is mathematically larger than 0 out of whatever. In terms of the other restaurants that I've been to - Bouchon, Jeanty, Don Giovanni, and possibly Tra Vigne and Mustard Grill, are establishments that I would consider to be not near world-class status, but which in my opinion are above and beyond the restaurants that I been to in Sonoma. Tue Mar 09 12:43:30 -0800 2004 117769 0 rcc 4 117790 I'm with you on FL and Terra (I've only had catered samples and not a meal in the restaurant at Terra). But disagree mightily on the Napa places you suggest as better, let alone above and beyond what Sonoma County has to offer. Santi's cooking blows away Tra Vigne and Don Giovanni, if you're in the mood for regional Italian cuisine. Mustards has its ups and downs and I'm not convinced it's back up again. If you like Mustards, give Zazu in Santa Rosa a try, for a homey touch that incorporates eclectic ingredients. Not fond of Bouchon, lacks soul for me. Jeanty is probably my favorite spot in Napa Valley, and there's not a French contender that I can think of on the Sonoma side, but I do believe there are restaurants that are equally as good, such as the Farmhouse, Manzanita, and two I haven't tried yet - Dry Creek Kitchen and Mirepoix. Fwiw, imho, Willi's Raw Bar in Healdsburg is turning out great small plates that trump Zuzu in Napa, and has a better wine list. Having said that, where I think Sonoma really shines over Napa's offerings is in the extremely high quality of modestly priced work-a-day places where the locals hang out and frequent for their couple nights a week out. In Napa, I'd put Cindy's Backstreet Kitchen, Don Giovanni, ZinsValley, Foothill Cafe, maybe Market (which I haven't tried) in this category. Sonoma has K&L Bistro, Appellations, Ravenous, Willow Wood, Le Bistro, La Salette, The Fig, Zin, Willi's Wine Bar, and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, where you can find pristinely fresh and detailed cooking at every day prices. I'd take any of those over my list for Napa any day. Just my humble opinion. (vbg) Tue Mar 09 14:02:59 -0800 2004 117772 0 Melanie Wong 5 117795 "Not fond of Bouchon, lacks soul for me." curious, can you expand more on what you mean by soul? Tue Mar 09 14:40:05 -0800 2004 117790 0 jason low 5 117818 I agree that with the differences that you cited regarding the "quality for modestly-priced work" and to a lot of extent, what others that posted in this thread to refer to Sonoma as having that homey, down-to-earth wine country experience. These are the qualities that motivates me to try Sonoma-based restaurants that I read upon, including in boards such as this one. Santi definitely stands-out as a positive experience for me, even though it's been about a year-and-a-half and I've noticed on their website that their prices seem higher than the last time I was there. I'm not going to say that I had bad experiences at the two other places that you mentioned and which I've been to - Farmhouse Inn and Dry Creek Kitchen. Yes, the service and attentiveness were all present, but the food quality, to me, did not measure up to my experiences at Bouchon or even Foothill Cafe. I'm not sure what you refered to as "lacking soul", but, they provided more than sufficient care and attention to make me and my party comfortable and informed about the products and services that I can look forward to during our time there. To cite an example, during our first ever dinner at Bouchon, they seem to think that it took longer than necessary for my entree to be served. As impatient as I normally am, it never entered my mine and yet, without being over-bearing and in a casual, professional manner, they comped us with samples of their raw bar oysters and a nice glass of white wine to go with them. Bistro Jeanty is definitely at a much higher level of experience than any of these, to my mind. I do not intend to do a Sonoma VERSUS Napa thing here. I completely believe that they are different and I am glad that they are. I will always look forward to getting acquainted with the offerings from both. Tue Mar 09 16:24:59 -0800 2004 117790 0 rcc 5 117967 Melanie, What would you recommend for dining in downtown Sonoma. We are celebrating my mother's 60th birthday and need to pick a restaurant in downtown Sonoma, or very close by, as they are staying in Sonoma. What would be considered the high end there? We will most likely bring some special older wines to celebrate so wine list is not critical. I have always much preferred the restaurants in Napa to Sonoma in general, but do have limited experience with downtown Sonoma. I have only been to Girl and the Fig in downtown Sonoma. It was fine, but not what I would consider a special occasion place. I recently had a dinner at Martini House in Napa that I considered world class, and would love to find a similar place in Sonoma. Interested to hear your (or anyone's) thoughts. Thu Mar 11 00:29:37 -0800 2004 117790 0 MikeW 5 118347 Well I'm a SoCal, but make my share of trips to wine country. I'd agree that the Sonoma side is coming up as far as very good restaurants, and may even win the contest as far as everyday eating (though the town of Napa has a lot of stuff). I think the Napa side still wins fine dining. F.Laundry is obviously king. Terra and La Toque are excellent. The next tier seem to be subject to opinion, but many very good: Mustards, Brix, Martini House, Auberge, Jeanty, Don Giovanni, Chandon, Tra Vigne, Pinot Blanc, Greystone. I have heard the rooms at Meadowood and Silverado are much better now, and have yet to try Julia's or Cole's. You're right though about the lack of everyday stuff north of Napa itself. Tue Mar 16 14:02:42 -0800 2004 117790 0 John Gonzales 5 118951 I agree with Melanie that Sonoma has a lot more good "work-a-day" restaurants where regulars might eat regularly. There's a lot of reasons for that, I think. The biggest is that the tourist economy swamps everything else here in Napa. Land prices are really high, and a restaurant has to either pack them in or charge high prices. So what kind of restaurant would you create if you wanted to actually make a living here? There's not enough Asians here to support the kind of great indian and chinese restaurants you can find in the East, South and West Bay. And what tourist is going to go for a spicy Nasi Goreng after a day of chewing cabernets? So we end up with a gazillion tourist restaurants, all selling some kind of pseudo-italian-french menu with a heavy dose of "Napa ambiance". And why would a Napan pay to hang out there, when there's real Napa ambiance -- and fresh, fresh food -- out back? Long ago I asked an Italian friend where he went for good food in Italy. He gave me a quizical eyebrow twist, and said "At mother's of course!". Well, why would we pay to eat tourist food when we can get incredibly fresh food from our own gardens, and dine out back, with friends, pool-side or petanque-court-side, chewing on a little of that cabernet. [This week's menu at Casa Akimbo includes: golden beet soup; arugula and pancetta cream sauce on pasta; fresh asparagus and artichokes, simply steamed.] Slightly off topic: asparagus straight out of the garden is so, so much better than anything you'll ever get retail. Why don't most Bay Area chowhounds grow their own? Fri Apr 23 17:45:00 -0700 2004 117790 0 MikeT 1 117782 Well, I live in Sonoma County and am not really very familiar with what's out there in Napa county. But I find the whole question interesting in terms of what kind of dining experience one is looking for. Reading the other posts got me thinking...last weekend my husband and I ate at The Girl and the Fig in Petaluma. I have eaten once at the original G&F in Sonoma and also once before at the one in Petaluma. Is it really world class dining comparable to FL? No, probably not. Could I imagine a more pleasurable couple of hours than those I spent by the window watching a great blue heron at the side of the river as I ate an exquisite lunch? Again, no, probably not. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in occasionally spending the kind of $ it takes to have the really world class dining experience. It's just a rather subtle difference in experience which I find interesting to think about. And while I'm here, I'll put in my 2 cents. Scott, if you are looking for a more sophisticated ambience and truly world class dining, probably you want to go to Napa County. But if you are interested in some friendly, casual, good food and wine, come to Sonoma county. My husband and I refer to the Ledson/Viansa wineries collectively as the Disneyland of wine tasting, but we still usually take guests to one or the other just for the fun of it (you could easily make a lunch out of all the food samples at Viansa if you are patient enough to eat your lunch in many small bites), and then we go on to the smaller wineries around Bennett Valley to Glen Ellen (smell the lavendar and taste the chardonay at Matanzas Creek). We usually tend to buy produce, bread and cheese for dinner at home. But for eating out, tuck into some small plates and wine by the glass at Willy's Wine Bar (Windsor). Settle in for a long evening at the Farmhouse Inn (Forestville). And don't miss the fig salad at the Girl and the Fig. Save room for an ice cream cone from Screamin' Mimi's in Sebastopol. Have fun! Tue Mar 09 13:30:27 -0800 2004 117700 0 Kathleen 1 117819 If you've not been to either, I'd definitely recommend going to Napa. While Sonoma has its charms, Napa has more wineries and restaurants, and they're more accessible (Sonoma's are more spread out). There's much more to see and do in Napa -- it's the quintessential wine country experience here. Sonoma's a nice change of pace after you've visited Napa a couple of times. Just my two cents. Tue Mar 09 16:29:54 -0800 2004 117700 0 PekoePeony 1 117821 Thank you to everyone who responded to my question. I'm in the process of trying to get two days in the area so we can visit both Sonoma and Napa. Not living on the west coast makes a visit to this area special and we may sacrifice another part of our trip to visit both areas. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! To all! Tue Mar 09 16:54:41 -0800 2004 117700 0 scott 2 117877 I live and work (at a Napa winery) in Napa Monday through Friday. I moonlight in a Sonoma Winery on weekends. That said, THE restaurant not to miss is the recently PETA-maligned Sonoma Saveur on Sonoma's square. Lunch, as it is informal and not open past 7:00 p.m. Everything from the Duck Burger to the Foie Gras Terrine is exceptional. Napa-wise, for dinner, the hot-spot in town is Zuzu's - Spanish Tapas to die for (more than just Spanish, really - they make an amazing Lamb Loin with Pomegranate glaze... and weekly I go just for their Paella). Winery-wise, if you have never been to either city/county, head to the area that has the type of wine YOU prefer. If you like Chards and Cabs, go to Napa. Everyone is talking about the hideous traffic but, truth be told, that traffic really doesn't begin to become Disney-like until after Memorial Day. It isn't that bad this time of year. Most Sonoma wineries are beginning to charge now so the cost should not be an issue. Above all, have fun! Tue Mar 09 23:46:38 -0800 2004 117821 0 Wasp Woman 3 117915 Re: traffic. I've been stuck in traffic on highway 12 through the town of Sonoma and 101 through Santa Rosa that would rival 29. Wed Mar 10 12:22:18 -0800 2004 117877 0 nja 4 117993 Oh, I have too -- I was just saying that the traffic at THIS TIME OF YEAR is not nearly as bad as it WILL get this summer. Thu Mar 11 13:17:13 -0800 2004 117915 0 Wasp Woman